custom Ti frame versus the made in Asia plastic bike

[velomonkey]

So I have two complete bikes:

A custom made Titanium frame with Campy Record, Deda Zero 100 cockpit and Regal Saddle with Time Expresso Peddles
A made in Asia plastic frame, not the brands most expensive frame, Campy Record EPS, Deda Zero 100 cockpit and Regale Saddle with Time Expresso Peddles


I'm not gonna post the brand names. I do a weekly TT series and do it Cannibal Style, no aero bars on my road designed frame, but I do ride Bora 1s 50mm Tubular w/ Record 12/25 Cassette.

I have all last years TT efforts on file and have done 3 TTs this year - all have been on the Ti bike. Both bikes are basically the same: expect EPS on the plastic bike and Record cranks - mechanical on Ti and Dale SLS4 cranks with Power2Max cranks - so I have power on the Ti, but not on the plastic bike.

With all this talk of aero thanks to Specialized and Trek I thought "hey, throw the Boras on the plastic bike and do the TT even without power and let's see what happens." So I rode a week with the plastic bike to make sure I was totally used to it (normally ride the Ti since it has power).

10k TT, lots of data and 3 weeks of times for this year on the Ti bike, no power reading, gotta go old school, but on the newer bike.

Well here is what happened. . . . . . .




The Plastic bike was over 20 seconds faster than my previous times (with the precise exact same wheels) and was off of my PR time by 2 seconds. And my training is way down this year, basically non-existent and no week is over 100 miles of rides. More like 70 miles with no interval training.

I gotta say, I was surprised. I think it had to do with the more aggressive chain stays (plastic bike is 23mm or 24mm tires) - Ti bike could take 28mm or maybe even 30mm. The EPS might have something to do with it, but 20 seconds!!!! I also had a wardrobe malfunction and had to adjust my boys and my HR was lower than my other previous weeks (albeit not by much). No one else had different times - not by my margin - in fact of the 30 people who did it - I had the most improved time by like 17 seconds!!!

Anyway, that's the deal.

[beeatnik]

scienze

[54ny77]

It was the barometric pressure. Had to have been.

[jwess1234]

Don't know how scientific, but food for thought re:Ti vs carbon https://youtu.be/Mh0y6S5HTtc?t=193

[false_Aest]

Well,

We all know that Chinese drywall has formaldehyde and other performance enhancing chemicals. The "plastic" must as well.

Could also be that since TI has a tendency to absorb road vibration so well it's also absorbing ~17 seconds over 10k.

Just like the Great Wall of China is impermeable to invading Mongols, the "plastic" must be impermeable to time.

[velotrack]

velomonkey, no need to hide.
Anyone who has touched the forum Gallery knows exactly which two bikes you're talking about. :cool:

Cool results.

[velomonkey]

velomonkey, no need to hide.
Anyone who has touched the forum Gallery knows exactly which two bikes you're talking about. :cool:

Cool results.


LOL - I figured I didn't want to name anyone by name as it implies one is better than the other and then have someone find the page on a search result - I like both companies, both bikes - each are different.

Still, 20 seconds over 10k, not what I would have thought.

[Black Dog]

Not the bike. It's the rider that went 20 seconds faster. There is placebo, etc and 20 seconds, once, is not a statistic. It is an anecdote. There are so many other factors at play here. Enjoy the good ride that you did.

[Burnette]

There are so many variables that go into a ride, even the day before it, that can have a huge impact on any outcome for any one ride.
Keep a good and accurate journal (what ya ate, weight, temps, how much sleep you got, routes, miles, intensity level, feet climbed, wind speed, positve-negative-depressed-happy mindset, cadence, mhp, heart rate, tire psi, bib/shorts you wore, time of day) and you will see good days and bad days and you still may be mystified as to why on a certain day you had the legs.
The more you ride the more you get that sometimes things line up right, sometimes they don't, regardless how much you prepared or what you are riding. The journal, over a very long period, will give you patterns though that you can use to fine hone what makes you tick no matter what you throw your leg over.
Alberto Contatdor says he does twenty minute standing/climbing sessions. What bike he was on would change his numbers ever so slightly over very long distances. For the average cycling enthusiast a time change would be even less so.
Continue doing the hard work. Your training will make you way faster than any bike swap ever will. And keep a good journal of that training.

[bikinchris]

To verify, you need to switch back to the Ti bike and do the same TT.

Of course, weather COULD make the difference. Even temperature.

[RyanH]

Geometry and position on the bike could play a significant factor.

[velomonkey]

I for sure plan on doing another ride on the ti bike, probably in 2 weeks.

I will say the carbon bike is a very streamlined bike - it's that century geometry and, like I said, the chain stays are tight. I got .5cm longer reach on the carbon, too.

I like both bikes and I will say, when you're red lining it EPS is nice, but I've never had an issue with mechanical.

[Charles M]

Body position and wind...

That is all.

[eric01]

Curious. Why are folks so quick to write off that the "plastic bike" could actually be better or yield a faster time?

[fogrider]

just to be clear, is the Chinese plastic bike a knock off or a bike designed by someone/company and built in a factory in China to their specific standards?

[Black Dog]

Curious. Why are folks so quick to write off that the "plastic bike" could actually be better or yield a faster time?

Because unless it is super aero and the other bike is like a drag shoot then there is no way just the frame can account for that difference. Contrary to marketing, a stiffer frame does not make a bike faster, just accelerate a bit faster (perhaps). Also unless the TT was straight up hill and the plastic bike is a few pounds lighter then there is not going to be a huge time difference because of mass differences. There is a lot of real world data to support this.

[oldpotatoe]

So I have two complete bikes:

A custom made Titanium frame with Campy Record, Deda Zero 100 cockpit and Regal Saddle with Time Expresso Peddles
A made in Asia plastic frame, not the brands most expensive frame, Campy Record EPS, Deda Zero 100 cockpit and Regale Saddle with Time Expresso Peddles


I'm not gonna post the brand names. I do a weekly TT series and do it Cannibal Style, no aero bars on my road designed frame, but I do ride Bora 1s 50mm Tubular w/ Record 12/25 Cassette.

I have all last years TT efforts on file and have done 3 TTs this year - all have been on the Ti bike. Both bikes are basically the same: expect EPS on the plastic bike and Record cranks - mechanical on Ti and Dale SLS4 cranks with Power2Max cranks - so I have power on the Ti, but not on the plastic bike.

With all this talk of aero thanks to Specialized and Trek I thought "hey, throw the Boras on the plastic bike and do the TT even without power and let's see what happens." So I rode a week with the plastic bike to make sure I was totally used to it (normally ride the Ti since it has power).

10k TT, lots of data and 3 weeks of times for this year on the Ti bike, no power reading, gotta go old school, but on the newer bike.

Well here is what happened. . . . . . .




The Plastic bike was over 20 seconds faster than my previous times (with the precise exact same wheels) and was off of my PR time by 2 seconds. And my training is way down this year, basically non-existent and no week is over 100 miles of rides. More like 70 miles with no interval training.

I gotta say, I was surprised. I think it had to do with the more aggressive chain stays (plastic bike is 23mm or 24mm tires) - Ti bike could take 28mm or maybe even 30mm. The EPS might have something to do with it, but 20 seconds!!!! I also had a wardrobe malfunction and had to adjust my boys and my HR was lower than my other previous weeks (albeit not by much). No one else had different times - not by my margin - in fact of the 30 people who did it - I had the most improved time by like 17 seconds!!!

Anyway, that's the deal.

Of course!! Coolness made you faster. If the battery was V1, outside, you would have been even faster. :)

[jghall]

Thinking Eddy's spirit was with you, that's it. ;)

[bobswire]

just to be clear, is the Chinese plastic bike a knock off or a bike designed by someone/company and built in a factory in China to their specific standards?

Merckx branded made in China to spec. I believe.

[beeatnik]

Because unless it is super aero and the other bike is like a drag shoot then there is no way just the frame can account for that difference. Contrary to marketing, a stiffer frame does not make a bike faster, just accelerate a bit faster (perhaps). Also unless the TT was straight up hill and the plastic bike is a few pounds lighter then there is not going to be a huge time difference because of mass differences. There is a lot of real world data to support this.

Troof

[velomonkey]

So 20 seconds over 10k is .4 mph difference. I would wager that one could get that from position and geometry. Stiffness isn't the difference as both bikes are stiff.

My Ti bike is very typical geo with a more longer chain stays. The merckx is century geo with a .5cm longer reach and the same saddle to bar drop. The chain stays are really aggressive - like the old C40s where the rear wheels comes right up to the seatpost. The course also stinks and is just slow, no real downhills to speak of, lots of chip seal, two short steep hills and a 1k long 3 to 5% gradient climb. It ends with a short climb and then a false flat.

I dunno, I will do it one more time with carbon, switch back to Ti and try it without power readings - it is possible I was too focused on keeping my power at 310 watts which I only change when do 10 standup peddle strokes on the 2 steep, short hills. I ride the entire route on the hoods, elbows bent and back flat - except on the 1k climb I get on the tops.

[Black Dog]

So 20 seconds over 10k is .4 mph difference. I would wager that one could get that from position and geometry. Stiffness isn't the difference as both bikes are stiff.

My Ti bike is very typical geo with a more longer chain stays. The merckx is century geo with a .5cm longer reach and the same saddle to bar drop. The chain stays are really aggressive - like the old C40s where the rear wheels comes right up to the seatpost. The course also stinks and is just slow, no real downhills to speak of, lots of chip seal, two short steep hills and a 1k long 3 to 5% gradient climb. It ends with a short climb and then a false flat.

I dunno, I will do it one more time with carbon, switch back to Ti and try it without power readings - it is possible I was too focused on keeping my power at 310 watts which I only change when do 10 standup peddle strokes on the 2 steep, short hills. I ride the entire route on the hoods, elbows bent and back flat - except on the 1k climb I get on the tops.

You have mentioned the differences in chain stays several times. I can assure you that any differences in chain stays will not make a bike faster or slower.

[Burnette]

See above, you need way more saddle time on both with conditions as close to the same within reason to get just a number that will fall into a pretty wide margin of error.
I have been riding on the road since 2006 and have had personal bests at so many different times on the same bike on different routes on different days.
See the variables I mentioned above. Stack a few of those infavor of one bike on one day and take away the benefit of those another day on the other bike and you could very well get a huge time swing.
Your training will make a bigger difference than either of those bikes.
Train and Keep A Journal. You will gleen more from that than you will from two or even ten rides on two bikes.
Your sample size here is way too small to have any repeatable, verifiable and definitive proof of anything other than how each bike makes you feel.

[velomonkey]

You have mentioned the differences in chain stays several times. I can assure you that any differences in chain stays will not make a bike faster or slower.

Possibly, Probably, however, longer chain stays DO make it harder to do a wheelie.

[1centaur]

For those who say it can't be the bike based on stiffness or aero or whatever, while I won't disagree on those aspects I have to say that a person pedals the bike and not a robot, while data always reflect, in effect, a robot. A person, on the other hand, gets thousands of stimulus/response pairs over the course of 10K, based on how many times he pushes the pedals. How the bike responds to those pushes and feels to the human will help determine how eagerly the human pushes on the next few rotations. But one of the variables is the human's condition - good legs or bad legs that day? The psychology of the power source is kind of important to the overall time. The feedback from the bike plays a role, and not one that can be calculated by analyticcycling.com.

Part of the psychology is the difference between two bikes. Once one of the bikes is eliminated, the difference factor is gone. Subsequent times may suffer as a result.

[fogrider]

the wind is a huge factor. and most of the time we don't even notice it. sure we feel a headwind, but most of the time, we don't notice a tailwind...we just think we're riding really strong!

[Charles M]

This really is a silly thread...

No identifying the bikes... No identifying the fit or wind...


It's all bull5h!t...

[velomonkey]

This really is a silly thread...

No identifying the bikes... No identifying the fit or wind...


It's all bull5h!t...

Bro, do you lift? The bikes were specified - groupset, handlebars, stem, saddle and wheels (come to think of it, I did leave out the headset, good call).

The fit was specified - one has a 1cm longer chain stay - the other a 1.5cm longer top tube.

OK, ok, so brands were left out, but if you wanted to find them it was one step more than a good search, so let me do that for you - Merckx San Remo and Firefly Ti.

Wind - I don't know wind, but, as I said, no one else had a change in their time by 20 seconds, the 2nd biggest gain in time of 30 riders was 3 seconds - everyone else was the same or lost time.

[beeatnik]

no one else had a change in their time by 20 seconds, the 2nd biggest gain in time of 30 riders was 3 seconds - everyone else was the same or lost time.

Velo, you're not riding with Pros (or robots for that matter).

[RyanH]

This really is a silly thread...

No identifying the bikes... No identifying the fit or wind...


It's all bull5h!t...

This. Sample size of one.

Here's a hill climb segment that I do frequently representing 3 different bikes (in the top 3 results), a Litespeed Xicon, Litespeed Siena and a Parlee Z5 SLi, respectively, but I'm surely not going to make a statement that the Xicon is 16s faster than the Parlee at the same wattage (result #1 and #10).

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/466/18799595994_1b34ac09b3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/uDfQVq)

[cat6]

Curious. Is the plastic bike red?

[joosttx]

scienze

Pskeinzze

[berserk87]

Not the bike. It's the rider that went 20 seconds faster. There is placebo, etc and 20 seconds, once, is not a statistic. It is an anecdote. There are so many other factors at play here. Enjoy the good ride that you did.

YES! Post of the day. Keep this handy to copy & paste into other future threads about similar topics.

[malcolm]

Body position and wind...

That is all.

This would be my bet. I can't believe material would make that much difference even if the Ti were a complete noodle and the carbon stiffer than stiff.
By hey still a great anecdote. It's also very hard to judge effort. If you used the exact power meter and produced the same amount of watts, eh I give up who knows.

[mg2ride]

There is no way one of the main components of a bike could make you faster.

I bet it is your inner tubes!:banana::banana:

Obviously the above is sarcasm.

I do find it strange that most folks in this thread don't think a frame can make you faster but most people in the Latex vs. Butyl thread think that inner tubes can.:crap: