Branded Resellers - "Framebuilders" who don't build frames

[MattTuck]

Curious what you all think of the guys who put their name on the downtube of a frame someone else welded.

I know that Steve Hampsten has been outsourcing some of his welding to others, and has in the past. I know we talked about Gaulzetti now being made by Kelly Bedford. Both of these guys are well regarded. I think Steve is moving his production back in house, but the Gaulzetti situation seems more permanent.

When you buy a frame from them, are you paying a premium for their fit philosophy? frame design? or something else?

I don't mean to be overly provocative, as I said both of those listed are well regarded, but it is an interesting question.

[FlashUNC]

Speaking from personal experience, it doesn't bother me much. My last frame purchase personally came down to a Gaulzetti or a Lobster, and went with the Lobster since it was local.

Craig and team are, I think, still making something fairly unique in terms of design philosophy/geometry, aesthetic and materials. It was appealing regardless of the fact that Craig himself wasn't welding the tubes together or painting the darn thing.

But in my case local vs. across the country won out. Gaulzetti is still on the list. Maybe one day...

[54ny77]

Eddy Merckx wasn't exactly wielding a torch or paint sprayer. His steel bikes turned out pretty nice.

:p


So to answer the question, that kind of rig is just a brand, like any consumer good. It's their job to market their differentiation (assuming there is one), and the consumer's decision to buy into it.

[MattTuck]

Same could be said for Lemond.

[54ny77]

Yep. Years ago I owned a then-new LeMond steel and the thought of his being physically involved with its construction never once entered my mind. I don't even know where they were made (U.S.? It was a Zurich model) and didn't care.


Same could be said for Lemond.

[azrider]

Eddy Merckx wasn't exactly wielding a torch or paint sprayer. His steel bikes turned out pretty nice.:p

Using your philosophy, the same could be said for Ben Serotta's frames since his name was on the down tube. I think that what the OP is getting at is much larger distinction from third partying out the process, whereas Serotta (and 'maybe' Merckx IDK) had much larger hand in design, production, etc.

No?

[Bob Ross]

This may seem weird -- and I'll admit, I haven't put a lot of thought into this, it just kinda occurred to me now -- but the distinction I make is this:

I don't much care if I don't know the name of the guy who wielded the torch;
I do care if the guy who wielded the torch doesn't know my name.

iow, buying a Gaulzetti or a Hampsten (or a Spectrum or a Firefly etc.) fits happily in my personal comfort zone because in addition to me getting to dialog with (at least one of) the guy(s) who's actually taking responsibility for my bike, that guy and his whole potentially-anonymous crew are building a bike that they all know is for me, not just some rack filler at the Bikes R Us retail store.

[MattTuck]

Yep. Years ago I owned a then-new LeMond steel and the thought of his being physically involved with its construction never once entered my mind. I don't even know where they were made (U.S.? It was a Zurich model) and didn't care.

I still own a steel zurich! :banana:

Using your philosophy, the same could be said for Ben Serotta's frames since his name was on the down tube. I think that what the OP is getting at is much larger distinction from third partying out the process, whereas Serotta (and 'maybe' Merckx IDK) had much larger hand in design, production, etc.

No?

You put it more succinctly than I did. I'm not saying it is good or bad, just another part of the industry. If you think of the value chain of a frame builder, you have frame/geometry design as a first step and frame construction as a second step. There's no rule that says a person must be good at both, or even enjoy both. It may be a more efficient system to have specialized (not the company) fitter/designers who consult with customers and design the best bike for each customer and then welder/builder/painters who execute the design at the highest level. The question then becomes which name should go on the downtube. My Kirk has a Joe Bell logo on the chain stay, for instance.

As it is, paint is already widely outsourced on the understanding that a paint specialist is going to do a better job than the guy painting one frame a week. Not to mention the economies of scale.

[alexstar]

Ernesto and Ugo don't build their bikes anymore but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Colnago or (another) De Rosa. For me it's about the bicycle, not the particulars of who laid hands on it when.

[eddief]

was torched by some guy in China...or maybe a woman. Davis gave some good advice based on a previous CAD I had from my Curtlo. Davis was the middleman. Davis has designed lots of frames. His shop did the brushed finish. And I trust he would take care of any warranty issues. His name is on the downtube. Almost nobody but me recognizes the name. I love that bike so I don't care about all the other stuff.

On the other hand Doug Curtiss designed and torched my Curtlo. That one has no decals, but does have his obscure but well-done tiny headtube badge. I like that one too.

[thirdgenbird]

When you buy a frame from them, are you paying a premium for their fit philosophy? frame design? or something else?

Speaking about a gaulzetti from the outside looking in, pure awesomeness.

It not a romantic story
It's not custom fitting
It's not race wins
It's not heritage
It's not tech
It's not specs
It's not marketing

It's intangible undefinable awesomeness. It's the only cycling want I can't pretend to rationalize or explain.

[Scooper]

Waterford is building, or has built, framesets for Ben's Cycles (Milwaukee Bicycle Company), Rivendell, and Shinola (Detroit) among others.

[unterhausen]

I like the brands that have a real person making the frames, like the ones mentioned in the OP. Some brands that outsource to Waterford seem to sell pretty decent bikes, but that's starting to get a little too mass-produced for my tastes. The guys that buy a container from Taiwan or China, more power to them, but I'm not going to go to them for a bike. If I need something like that, it's gonna be temporary and I'll find something that QBP sells that meets the immediate need.

[Ken Robb]

I'd guess that there are more highly skilled welders/brazers than there are people who are skilled designers so I think it's fine to have different people designing frames while others do the constructing.

[velomonkey]

Good question - having purchased a firefly and researched a long time before pulling the plug here where my factors

- I liked the guys, they were people and a company I wanted to give money to
- I thought they made a good product
- I liked that I knew exactly who was welding my bike, and he knew me
- I felt confident that if I had a warranty issue they'd take care of me

Now, considering adding a Hampsten. It's not made by Steve, that's for sure. So what are my considerations

- Andy is awesome
- It seems to be a good lugged frame
- It looks nice
- The price is OK
- It seems people enjoy riding theirs and it's a well made frame

[teleguy57]

Now, considering adding a Hampsten. It's not made by Steve, that's for sure. So what are my considerations

- Andy is awesome
- It seems to be a good lugged frame
- It looks nice
- The price is OK
- It seems people enjoy riding theirs and it's a well made frame

+100 to all the above (I've had the pleasure of meeting Andy in person twice, and he is one of the nicest people you'll meet)
Add to your list:

Steve is the design guru behind your frame. It truly is designed specifically for you leveraging his years of expertise in knowing all the subtleties and intangibles that go into make a great riding and great handling frame;
It looks more than nice; his subtle graphics and overall look is outstanding. People recognize the Hampsten aesthetic;
Price is spot on for the quality you get;
Max Kullaway (welded frames) and Martin Tweedy (brazed frames) are both masters of their craft with years of experience;
Steve stands behind his work and loves it when people love riding his bikes;
and did I mention Steve is a fun guy to talk with -- that wonderful sense or irreverence about things where lots of us get our shorts all tied up in knots. And he won't just tell you what you want to hear; he has opinions that are important to him (and people benefit when they listen).


I bet you can guess I have one:)

Oh, and Steve is personally working with carbon fiber now; not sure when he'll actually declare it as an available option, but I think he's been working with Nick Crumpton and learning from him.

Lots of good choices out there; Hampsten is on that list, and very likely on many short lists from the larger offerings.

Edited: Re-reading this sounds like I'm proselytizing vs being on topic, so to the point:
*I like knowing the folks building my frame have me in mind, not some faceless "consumer"
*I like knowing my frame is designed for me personally
*I like knowing there's experience and expertise going into both the design and fabrication of my frame
*whether the guy who holds the torch is the same guy who's name is on the downtube, indifferent (since many company names are not the names of people anyhow)
*I like when people are upfront about who they are and how they work.

[mosca]

I think you have to ask what these "brands" are bringing to the table if they are not building in-house. Both Gaulzetti and Hampsten bring a lot of knowledge, experience, and unique design philosophies to their products. Companies like Ritte or Linus maybe start with adding cool graphics to generic or open-mold frames. It's all fine as long as it's clear what you are getting.

[jwess1234]

I think you have to ask what these "brands" are bringing to the table if they are not building in-house. Both Gaulzetti and Hampsten bring a lot of knowledge, experience, and unique design philosophies to their products. Companies like Ritte or Linus maybe start with adding cool graphics to generic or open-mold frames. It's all fine as long as it's clear what you are getting.

Agree with this and similar sentiments in the thread.

The only thing that is bothersome to me is when brands craft this detailed story about being a bespoke / custom / from the ground up, only to outsource the work without credit to the welders etc.

[Chris]

At this point, based on all the group rides around here, I think my primary concern is does the frame have a threaded bottom bracket? I couldn't stand to have my bike popping and creaking with every acceleration no matter who designed/built it.

[cat6]

The name on the downtube is the name of the brand. If you dig a certain brands aesthetic, fitting method, history or philosophy you'll choose that brand.

I just found out my Merckx wasn't built by Eddy and his name is on the frame 6 times! My Soulcraft was built by some guy named Sean and I can't find his name on the bike anywhere :confused:

[bigreen505]

For me, there is a difference between shops like Gaulzetti and Hampsten that are building a bike for someone, and shops like Sampson that are just ordering frames from Taiwan. Perhaps that is an overly simplistic view.

[gavingould]

re: Gaulzetti, as long as I've been aware of the brand, Craig was never the one actually putting the torch to metal. i think he has mentioned that he's welded stuff before, but he's always been the designer first and foremost...

i'm not sure who actually welded mine.
that wasn't important criteria for me - the geometry numbers were right, i like the look, pulled the trigger.

there are a lot of different builder situations out there. Sacha doesn't do everything himself on Speedvagen, Vanilla is a bit more his playground vs production style.

[r_mutt]

Gaulzetti was always designed by craig, and built by other craftsmen. even before even bike # 1 was shipped, it was openly stated that this was how things were done.

[earlfoss]

I love my Hampsten and when I have the cash I'll likely get another to put in the stable. I like how they look and ride. He's got a guy welding the ti bikes on site nowadays from what I understand. He's a welder for 333, and they are pretty open about that with everyone.

[MattTuck]

re: Gaulzetti, as long as I've been aware of the brand, Craig was never the one actually putting the torch to metal. i think he has mentioned that he's welded stuff before, but he's always been the designer first and foremost...

i'm not sure who actually welded mine.
that wasn't important criteria for me - the geometry numbers were right, i like the look, pulled the trigger.

there are a lot of different builder situations out there. Sacha doesn't do everything himself on Speedvagen, Vanilla is a bit more his playground vs production style.

On your last point about Speedvagen and Vanilla. Neither of those use Sacha's name on the downtube, and I think he only signs his name to the Vanilla frames, though I could be wrong on this. I've never seen one in person.

To the above points, yes, the name on the downtube is a brand. At different points in the market, that brand has different connotations. With big companies with a surname (Lemond, Gary Fisher, Colnago, Merckx, etc.) there is a general acceptance that the company is named after the founder and that the frames may be inspired by the founder's philosophy but not actually made by the founder.

At the custom end of the market, when you put a surname on there, that's generally (serotta being the only exception I can think of) an indication of who is welding the frame. And for a while, the custom bike market has been used craftsmanship and frame construction as the primary dimension of competition. It is actually a byproduct of being able to look at a frame and decide whether it is aesthetically pleasing and if the details are executed well.

With the brands mentioned earlier in the thread, we might be seeing an evolution in the market, or atleast an existing niche with the potential to grow, where the differentiation comes not from actually constructing the frame, but from designing the frame with a certain philosophy applied to each customer's unique needs.

I recognize that neither Hampsten nor Gaulzetti are new to this model, but I'm interested to see if this becomes a trend over time, and we see more people moving into that space.

[velomonkey]

(Lemond, Gary Fisher, Colnago, Merckx, etc.) there is a general acceptance that the company is named after the founder and that the frames may be inspired by the founder's philosophy but not actually made by the founder.

At the custom end of the market, when you put a surname on there, that's generally (serotta being the only exception I can think of) an indication of who is welding the frame. And for a while, the custom bike market has been used craftsmanship and frame construction as the primary dimension of competition.

Totally agree with the above statements: you can't apply Merckx to Kirk - the only thing they share is that someone's last name is on the downtube.

It's funny - I'd say that Tom Kellogg had more cache as a designer for Merlin than he does as Spectrum.

Nevertheless it is a fine line and some, like Sacha, are pulling it off. As hand-crafted bikes coming into fashion more I suspect we'll see companies toy with this model - some will get away with it and some won't.

[54ny77]

It's also a way for folks who are undercapitalized to get into the biz. That's both good & bad. Good for consumer in that there's something new in the market, bad if the reseller is not a good businessperson (relying on the deposits).

Caveat emptor on a reseller juggling the balance sheet to pay its craftsmen (and for an independent builder for that matter, e.g., someone who does everything but paint).

This biz model is very common in many other industries, of course. Nothing new there, just that it's interesting to see it on such a micro scale in bike-land.

As hand-crafted bikes coming into fashion more I suspect we'll see companies toy with this model - some will get away with it and some won't.

[Polyglot]

Ernesto and Ugo don't build their bikes anymore but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Colnago or (another) De Rosa. For me it's about the bicycle, not the particulars of who laid hands on it when.

There is debate as to whether Ernesto EVER built any frames. Ugo effectively retired from framebuilding about 10 years ago. His son Doriano had by then taken over the building of all the titanium frames and the oversight of the steel frames. Doriano has however now left the family company and set out on his own, so if you really are interested in buying a bike that represents the true continuation and improvement on Ugo's work, you should check out: http://bixxis.com/en/

[bfd]

Waterford is building, or has built, framesets for Ben's Cycles (Milwaukee Bicycle Company), Rivendell, and Shinola (Detroit) among others.

Grant Petersen is the "designer" of Rivendell custom frames and outsources the builds to a variety of builders including the previously mentioned Waterford, Richard Sachs, Roland Della Santa, Curt Goodrich, Joe Starck (whatever happened to him?!) and Mark Nobilette. There may be others I don't remember.

He also outsources his other Riv brands (atlantis, roadeo, legolas, hillborne, etc) to Asia and has Toyo and a Taiwanese company (Maxway?) build them.

But Grant has build a tremendous following on his philosophy that 10s of thousands of people have bought into and will only buy his bikes!

Good Luck!:banana::butt::hello:

[Bob Ross]

I just found out my Merckx wasn't built by Eddy and his name is on the frame 6 times! My Soulcraft was built by some guy named Sean and I can't find his name on the bike anywhere :confused:

As my old bass teacher said decades ago while we were admiring the luthier's name/logo on the headstock of his custom-built instrument, "For the amount of money I paid it should be my name on there!"
:p

[tiretrax]

Matt,
What are you considering buying? If it's a Hampsten, a lot of his frames are now made in house, but the contractor work was done by some of the best in the business. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. In fact, last year, I tried to chase down a Moots-made Hampsten - I think it would be cool to have the pig decal on the head tube instead of a stoned, dancing alligator.

As far as a lot of other custom bikes, it seems that a few builders got a great reputation, and increased volume required them to hire some other welders (Seven, Firefly, IndyFab, etc.). I might visit the builders' shop to get fitted, but I know there's some production aspect to it. The design and build quality are the value I'm getting. If it's subbed out (Merckx/LeMond for example), I know the bike is more of a mass market bike anyway because I'm buying it at the lbs.

I've loved my custom builder bikes but not much more than my more mass produced bikes (some of which had a better ride).

[MattTuck]

Not so much looking to buy a new frame right now (c'mon powerball!!!), I just think it is an interesting question to discuss. Both Hampsten and Gaulzetti are on my list, as are many others, when the time comes.

From a business perspective (I work at a business school), I think some of those aspects of the cycling industry can be pretty interesting.

[marciero]

My Hampsten, from 2009, was made by IF. I'm cool with that. Even has IF sticker on the chainstay.

Sometime after I bought my Derosa Merak in 2001, I was told or read that that was the only model Ugo still welded. While I would like to believe that is true (perhaps someone will spoil it for me!), to learn otherwise would not diminish my appreciation of that bike, for all reasons others have stated.

[Neil]

We build frames for (currently one) other custom bicycle company, we've done work for others, it's very useful for us as it represents cash flow and we are a small business.

It also helps us to pay our trainee frame builder enough money to actually live on - rare for London.

We don't make very much money on these frames - hardly anything if I'm being honest about it, and if we were to break the threshold at which we'd need to become VAT registered that small profit would turn negative immediately, which would of course prompt a very rapid renegotiation.

There are some other benefits for us - we develop Tom's abilities, we do some work that we'd probably not otherwise do in terms of techniques, frame designs, and tubing as they're not our designs, and it allows us to have capacity for dealing with surges of orders.

At the moment Matt is just finishing a fillet brazed stainless steel frame - this requires a very great degree of skill as it is "challenging" to work with, so needs Matt's full attention. Whilst Matt attends to that Tom is using the end-mill to precisely mitre tube sets for the contract frames.

We don't (and won't) mention who we build for, not because we've got some sort of NDA in place but simply because I feel it's up to the guys who are selling and supporting the frames to decide what they want to say on that point, if anything.

As has been said, these frames are predominantly designed by the vendor, we do have some input- recently we got some components laser cut which replaced some cast parts that required a lot of clean up, and that was incorporated into the design, but that's detail - not concept.

On that note, I'd say that when you buy from someone who subs-out the frame building you are buying that vendors design, experience and support - it's their bike you buy. We might have built it, and we'll repair it if you crash, but it's not "our" frame, although we are still very proud of each and every one of them.

Sorry for the rather rambling post!

[guido]

Then you get folks like Boulder Bike who come right out and say on their website that Waterford does the actual building of their designs/specs... I like the clarity of that...

[eippo1]

A term that a lot of people are throwing around is faceless. Makes sense, it doesn't have that feel of a product made specifically for you, which is quite a luxury. It is rare to have that feeling, maybe with a suit as well.

But many see it as a requirement and frown on the products of the masses. Many are happy with their nice bikes made for everyone. Many people also are happy with and proud of the work that they do. Do you diminish the work that the machinist does for a car part since the car is not custom for the buyer? No, you can appreciate the skill that went into it.

I say the same is true to some extent for bikes. Just because they are designed here and fabricated elsewhere in a factory, shouldn't diminish the fact that they are often to a large degree handbuilt (yes, as part of a mass production). I'm sure the people that fabricate these faceless bikes are just as proud of their part in the process even if it just literally a part. IMO, custom bikes and bikes built for you are a true luxury of the highest degree that ends up being more affordable than other luxuries of that degree (i.e. a custom bike is more attainable than a custom boat.) Hence, to me this is a lot of splitting hairs, but yes, I do love and covet custom and/or designed bikes.

And here's a slideshow showing lots of hands on Giant bikes.
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/inside-giants-taiwan-frame-factory-part-two-39839/

[Davist]

Good discussion. I think the design philosophy of a Hampsten is what you're buying. Similarly, if Tom Kellogg outsources the Ti, it's still a spectrum. On the volume side think Schwinn / Giant back in the day, good bikes.

I have a buddy who "OEM'd" frames for others, by himself, to the tune of 400-500 frames a year, well respected within a very small group of those in the know. He's now running production at a company I won't name, but they're definitely well regarded here, making a standard frames.

On the consumer side, if we buy an Armani or Brooks Brothers (or whoever) custom suit aren't we buying the design philosophy rather than the "cut and sew"? Shouldn't they choose the best manufacturing partners (whether that's $$ or scalability or logistics or ??) and stick to their competence?

[jmoore]

From another small bike biz owner perspective, I can say that outsourced product manufacture takes a huge amount of upfront oversight and communication.

I am in final development for a new product and it's taken me two years to get to a point where the manufacturer is performing up to proper standards and the product has the repeatable quality I expect. Although I personally am not doing the hands on manufacture, it is certainly my idea, my design and my vision that got us to this point. The people manufacturing the product do have pride of workmanship otherwise I would not be using them.

Ultimately whoever puts their name on the downtube is responsible. Whether it's [framebuilder x] who does everything, or they outsource welding or paint or whatever, it is most certainly their bike. You are buying their design philosophy and to some extent their personality when you buy their bike.

[Mark McM]

It sounds like the original poster should join SOPWAMTOS (Society Of People Who Actually Make Their Own S***):

http://www.sopwamtos.com/

http://bicycletimesmag.com/whats-sopwamtos-and-why-should-i-care/

[cat6]

It sounds like the original poster should join SOPWAMTOS (Society Of People Who Actually Make Their Own S***):

http://www.sopwamtos.com/

http://bicycletimesmag.com/whats-sopwamtos-and-why-should-i-care/

Someone may know otherwise but I was told that Bruce Gordon isn't doing the actual welding on his frames anymore. It's done in-house but not by him. Same goes for Kent Eriksen.

I've got no issue with that. There are prob women in their 70's working at Nitto that know their way around a torch better than some of the framebuilders we all covet, but I wouldn't ask them to design me a bike.

[buddybikes]

Of course there is more than a torch and even designing (geometry). Choosing tubes, cutting/mitering to exacting tolorances. Many upper builders externally butt ti tubes.

So Tyler is not the only one doing finish welds at FF now? Know that Jamie spot welded as he the cutter.

Of course paint is another matter

[bikingshearer]

Add to the list of folks who, as far as I know, never actually put torch to metal but has his name on the highly-regarded finished product: Cino Cinelli. Doesn't seem to have hurt the performance or desirability of the frames.

Just sayin'.

[gavingould]

this just in: Greg Lemond doesn't build frames...

[54ny77]

And damn it all if Wolfgang Puck didn't lay his grubby hands on the pizza I ate at O'Hare.

this just in: Greg Lemond doesn't build frames...

[buddybikes]

Think a classification system should be built:
Tier A: Single builders or one with apprentice who do it all: ie sachs
Tier B: Small all custom shops that cut/weld under one roof: ie: Firefly
Tier C: Slightly larger that build custom and std, under their own roof: ie: IF, moots, seven
Tier D: Designers that "outsource" building but at high quality domestic shots
Tier E: Designers that outsource overseas
Tier F: mass market

Pricing above generally matches

Sure if missed something.

[ergott]

There are brands that outsource the manufacturing of their own intellectual property and there are brands that relable open source models as their own.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Then you get folks like Boulder Bike who come right out and say on their website that Waterford does the actual building of their designs/specs... I like the clarity of that...

Nobilette(local) also builds some. Also some Rene Herse's

[earlfoss]

It's amazing that we've gotten to 4 pages without the customary ripping on Ritte bikes!

I think that even they do a good job. Their aesthetic, transparency about the open mold thing, and diversification if their product lines over time is all stuff that makes me think that they really give a $hit.

The Stainless Snob is a pretty cool looking bike to me too. :banana:

[Climb01742]

European brands have a long history of outsourcing frame construction. The term 'builders of trust' came out of this tradition. Dario and Pinarello are just one example. Based on the build sheets I saw at his shop, it was quite extensive, covering many other famed brands. Have we become too precious about this? As long as the builder of trust is trust-worthy, why not?

[stephenmarklay]

For me its the end product. Having said that if the bike is built by a craftsmen I am more likely to but in. If its made in China I am more likely to pass no matter who’s name.

[FlashUNC]

Asian manufacturers can make really good stuff.

European manufacturers can make really good stuff.

American manufacturers can make really good stuff.

The one guy in his garage can make really good stuff.

The giant factory with a huge assembly line can make really good stuff.

The guy who outsources the product he sells out of his garage to a factory domestically or overseas can make really good stuff.

So...buy the good stuff.

[mg2ride]

Speaking about a gaulzetti from the outside looking in, pure awesomeness.

It not a romantic story
It's not custom fitting
It's not race wins
It's not heritage
It's not tech
It's not specs
It's not marketing

It's intangible undefinable awesomeness. It's the only cycling want I can't pretend to rationalize or explain.

Sounds like the perfect way to market to hipsters! Now he just needs to drop his prices by 80%

[dgauthier]

Not a peep yet about Serotta? (Sorry if I missed it among the 4 pages.)

Serotta (the company and the man) did as much as anyone to promote awareness of bicycle fit and how a custom frame could benefit every rider. When you bought a Serotta your frame was probably built by several people. No one ever suggested the "Serotta philosophy" was undermined or diluted because Ben Serotta himself didn't personally build the frames.

Whether we're talking about Serotta, or Seven, or Kellogg or Hampsten, the way a frame rides is determined by its fit, geometry and tube selection, and that's what one is buying when buying a custom frame. The frame should certainly be assembled by experienced craftsmen working to the highest standards of quality, but that doesn't affect the design of the frame.

[sparky33]

The question then becomes which name should go on the downtube.

I think of it as buying a complete package of philosophy, fit, design & fabrication. If it takes a few guys to put that together, I'm fine with that.

Hampsten is a good example that demonstrates the ability to deliver that package by, in part, hiring skilled fabricators and having high standards.

I'd want to see Hampsten on the downtube.

[thirdgenbird]

Sounds like the perfect way to market to hipsters! Now he just needs to drop his prices by 80%

From what I've seen, hipsters buy off romantic stories, meaningless specs and marketing (but they would tell you otherwise)

Ask what what njs means and you will understand.

[krhea]

Asian manufacturers can make really good stuff.

European manufacturers can make really good stuff.

American manufacturers can make really good stuff.

The one guy in his garage can make really good stuff.

The giant factory with a huge assembly line can make really good stuff.

The guy who outsources the product he sells out of his garage to a factory domestically or overseas can make really good stuff.

So...buy the good stuff.


I second this suggestion

[chasea]

Think a classification system should be built:
Tier A: Single builders or one with apprentice who do it all: ie sachs
Tier B: Small all custom shops that cut/weld under one roof: ie: Firefly
Tier C: Slightly larger that build custom and std, under their own roof: ie: IF, moots, seven
Tier D: Designers that "outsource" building but at high quality domestic shots
Tier E: Designers that outsource overseas
Tier F: mass market

Pricing above generally matches

Sure if missed something.


Don't see why two guys- or ten guys- can't build a bike just as good/bad as one guy.
Don't see why a roof -or who's roof- matters as long as the job is done right.
Don't see how most of that should relate to the price.

[bigbill]

Torelli had/has a good plan for steel frames. Bring handbuilt and unpainted Italian frames to the US and give them a good coat of Imron and some Torelli decals. He was up front about the source of his steel frames, and at the time he started, it was a good idea. Lots of great riding steel frames were coming out of Italy but the paint wasn't up to the quality of the frame.

As far as Bruce Gordon, I met one of his welders at the San Diego show in 2009. His job interview was welding cut in half beer can back together. Bruce was showing a Ti bike with Ti racks and carbon fenders.

[Louis]

To put this in more B-school terms (although I'm happy to admit that I'm not expert) the degree of vertical integration is function of a bunch of stuff - the type of industry, the products, the overall market, etc. etc.

I don't think you'll see any frame-maker actually manufacturing his or her own steel or Ti tubes any time soon, but things are different for CF, and those builders take advantage of that, saying that by customizing the cloth layouts and geometry they're better able to optimize the frame characteristics they're looking for. But I doubt any of them actually weave the cloth they use or actually make the resin.

Personally, I'm holding out for the builder who mines the iron ore in his back yard and forges his own steel tubes and lugs.

Come to think of it, one could grow their own bamboo for the tubes and hemp for the string to wrap joints and cook up the glue to hold it all together. I doubt 3-d printers could make very reliable components, so you'd probably want a Bridgeport to machine them, but how much bauxite do you have lying around to make your own 7075-T6?

[rounder]

last two bikes were kelly Bedford frames. They both felt fine as delivered. I do not plan any cnanges to either bike bike as deliveded.

[Black Dog]

To put this in more B-school terms (although I'm happy to admit that I'm not expert) the degree of vertical integration is function of a bunch of stuff - the type of industry, the products, the overall market, etc. etc.

I don't think you'll see any frame-maker actually manufacturing his or her own steel or Ti tubes any time soon, but things are different for CF, and those builders take advantage of that, saying that by customizing the cloth layouts and geometry they're better able to optimize the frame characteristics they're looking for. But I doubt any of them actually weave the cloth they use or actually make the resin.

Personally, I'm holding out for the builder who mines the iron ore in his back yard and forges his own steel tubes and lugs.

Come to think of it, one could grow their own bamboo for the tubes and hemp for the string to wrap joints and cook up the glue to hold it all together. I doubt 3-d printers could make very reliable components, so you'd probably want a Bridgeport to machine them, but how much bauxite do you have lying around to make your own 7075-T6?

Look and BMC weave their own CF cloth.

[happycampyer]

Look and BMC weave their own CF cloth.

I think you're thinking of Time. Time weaves its own carbon fiber cloth; afaik, Look doesn't. Giant does as well.

[Black Dog]

I think you're thinking of Time. Time weaves its own carbon fiber cloth; afaik, Look doesn't. Giant does as well.

True and true. It is time not look.

[Louis]

I stand corrected, but that does help make the point - there are varying degrees of vertical integration across the industry.

[nicrump]

I think you're thinking of Time. Time weaves its own carbon fiber cloth; afaik, Look doesn't. Giant does as well.
to be specific, Time braids while Giant weaves. BMC only did it for the Impec which lasted 3 stages of the tour never to be seen under a pro again.

[professerr]

Asian manufacturers can make really good stuff.

European manufacturers can make really good stuff.

American manufacturers can make really good stuff.

The one guy in his garage can make really good stuff.

The giant factory with a huge assembly line can make really good stuff.

The guy who outsources the product he sells out of his garage to a factory domestically or overseas can make really good stuff.

So...buy the good stuff.

^This. I'd add that there really is quite a lot of good stuff out there too -- you have to almost try to find something not good. And the difference between good and great is so small it its almost down to personal preference or fashion.

[Grant McLean]

to be specific, Time braids while Giant weaves.

www.youtube.com/wSUKM3bvcyk

http://www.timesportusa.com/assets/DSC_7960-carbon-weaver-ff22eec7b41b8f07a5bfd50c2aed892d.jpg

[menschita]

I own a lot of bikes and most of them were not handbuilt, although that has shifted over to more of them being handbuilt in the last few years. It comes down to the ride quality and the time I've spent on it. I had a Specialized Roubaix which I rode 1000's of miles on (mostly brevets), and it was stolen out of my car (rat bastards!) just before a 200k. I was able to find a Calfee frame close to my size and I bought and built it, and I love it now more than the Roubaix. For me, each bike has a history - the adventures it has taken me on. That's when it becomes more than just a frame, whether its from Taiwan or by a master craftsman.

Similarly, I am going to do a 6 week ride in Chile-Argentina in the Fall and I decided to put a "junker" bike together. I could ride the heck out of it and then leave it in Chile and not bring it home. Well, it's now in the garage and I already love it, and will have a hard time leaving it there (unless it breaks - doubtful!) once the adventure is completed...

Perhaps it's not just me that has a love affair with her rigs...

[pbarry]

I own a lot of bikes and most of them were not handbuilt, although that has shifted over to more of them being handbuilt in the last few years. It comes down to the ride quality and the time I've spent on it. I had a Specialized Roubaix which I rode 1000's of miles on (mostly brevets), and it was stolen out of my car (rat bastards!) just before a 200k. I was able to find a Calfee frame close to my size and I bought and built it, and I love it now more than the Roubaix. For me, each bike has a history - the adventures it has taken me on. That's when it becomes more than just a frame, whether its from Taiwan or by a master craftsman.

Similarly, I am going to do a 6 week ride in Chile-Argentina in the Fall and I decided to put a "junker" bike together. I could ride the heck out of it and then leave it in Chile and not bring it home. Well, it's now in the garage and I already love it, and will have a hard time leaving it there (unless it breaks - doubtful!) once the adventure is completed...

Perhaps it's not just me that has a love affair with her rigs...

Very well said. Thank you.

[oldpotatoe]

I own a lot of bikes and most of them were not handbuilt, although that has shifted over to more of them being handbuilt in the last few years. It comes down to the ride quality and the time I've spent on it. I had a Specialized Roubaix which I rode 1000's of miles on (mostly brevets), and it was stolen out of my car (rat bastards!) just before a 200k. I was able to find a Calfee frame close to my size and I bought and built it, and I love it now more than the Roubaix. For me, each bike has a history - the adventures it has taken me on. That's when it becomes more than just a frame, whether its from Taiwan or by a master craftsman.

Similarly, I am going to do a 6 week ride in Chile-Argentina in the Fall and I decided to put a "junker" bike together. I could ride the heck out of it and then leave it in Chile and not bring it home. Well, it's now in the garage and I already love it, and will have a hard time leaving it there (unless it breaks - doubtful!) once the adventure is completed...

Perhaps it's not just me that has a love affair with her rigs...

Or a master craftsman from Taiwan...some of these 'Asian' guys are not slouches, do very fine, hand make frames. By-hand layup, and finish work. They just are in the GBF in Taiwan(Great Big Factory)...some even ride bikes.