OT: For seamheads...Pete bet while playing.

[makoti]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/22/report-pete-rose-bet-on-baseball-as-a-player-not-just-as-a-manager/#comments

Can we finally just say goodbye to him? I can't see any way he gets reinstated now.

[oldpotatoe]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/22/report-pete-rose-bet-on-baseball-as-a-player-not-just-as-a-manager/#comments

Can we finally just say goodbye to him? I can't see any way he gets reinstated now.

Yet A-rod just recorded his '3000th hit' w/o any asterisks. Yes Pete broke this rule but his betting had no effect on the outcome of any baseball game. SHs like Arod, Maguire, Sosa, Bonds, their cheating DID have an effect on the outcome of the game. Rose isn't the first to bet on baseball, 2 others did(can't find their names) and they got 1 year suspensions. Rose lied, why he got hammered.

I say let him be on the HOF ballot, he won't be elected anyway.

[makoti]

Yet A-rod just recorded his '3000th hit' w/o any asterisks. Yes Pete broke this rule but his betting had no effect on the outcome of any baseball game. SHs like Arod, Maguire, Sosa, Bonds, their cheating DID have an effect on the outcome of the game. Rose isn't the first to bet on baseball, 2 others did(can't find their names) and they got 1 year suspensions. Rose lied, why he got hammered.

I say let him be on the HOF ballot, he won't be elected anyway.

I say don't let any of those guys in, but the thing with Rose now is all his BS lying about how he only bet AFTER his playing days is shot to hell. Sad thing for me is...I really, really liked Petey as a player.

[unterhausen]

Sad thing for me is...I really, really liked Petey as a player.me too, this is really sad for me.

[ScottM]

I'm sure the fact that steroid use led to more homeruns/fan excitement and increased attendance versus the PR nightmare resulting from players and/or managers betting on games played no part in the severity of punishments.

ARod got TWO $250,000,000.00 contracts; partially as a result of PED use. Please don't tell me he was great when he was clean unless you can convince me he was ever clean. When caught he had to sit out one twentieth of his career. I'm sure the contracts versus suspension will be contemplated by any young player contemplating using performance enhancing drugs.

[F150]

Pete Rose is, and will always be, Charlie Hustle. Except for the All Star Game bulldozing of Ray Fosse, hard to take exception with what he did on the field and even that play considered by most to be "good hard baseball" of the era. Do gambling addicts lie? Sure they do. A shame that he didn't come out Day 1 and say, "Yeah, I bet on baseball. Have since I was 12 yrs old. Never bet against my team, though, ever. Next question." Things would be lots different today.

IMO, PEDs are the only reason baseball survived after the strike. Great game to play, but very hard to watch unless you have a personal connection to those on the field (or are looking to take a nap). Bud Selig and the owners turned a blind eye b/c they all knew it was the only chance their investment didn't wither and die.

Have to disagree with Old Potatoe on this one; take the writers out of the equation and Pete is a first ballot HOF.

[rwsaunders]

Mays and Mantle were both banned by Bowie Kuhn as they were casino greeters when they retired and eventually Ueberroth lifted the ban. Rose was pretty stupid for betting while serving as a manager as if the bookies weren't going to talk.

[Elefantino]

Pete was a great player and a terrible human being. He liked to tell the story that he, Fosse and Sam McDowell were out drinking the night before the 1970 game, and that he and Fosse stayed up until 4 or 5 a.m. talking baseball while McDowell was passed out drunk.

It was BS. The three of them went out to dinner with their wives, that's all.

[oldpotatoe]

I say don't let any of those guys in, but the thing with Rose now is all his BS lying about how he only bet AFTER his playing days is shot to hell. Sad thing for me is...I really, really liked Petey as a player.

I agree..he's a liar but the specifics vs the other cheaters. As I mentioned, the people that do the voting won't allow him to be in the HOF.

[Ray]

Great game to play, but very hard to watch unless you have a personal connection to those on the field (or are looking to take a nap).

I think of baseball the same way I think of bike racing, particularly long stage races. Boring as all hell UNLESS you understand the subtleties, the strategy, the tactics, etc. in which case more interesting for the educated fan than pretty much any other sports. They're my two favorite spectator sports because you can get into them on so many levels beyond visceral excitement. Same reason I HATE Junior Circuit baseball with that damned DH rule - ruins the game, takes at least half of the interesting decisions out of it. I'll never live in an AL city again and if the NL ever adopts that sorry rule, I'm done with baseball...

As for Rose, I respected him but never liked him. Like him less since he retired and keeps running his mouth. I don't think PEDs are nearly as damaging to any sport as fixing results. I'm fine with the ban - wouldn't lift it...

-Ray

[rugbysecondrow]

It is clear to everybody who knows baseball that Rose is a HOF player, not a HOF manager. I would lift it, let the voters decide. The HOF is for the fans and the players, not the league


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FlashUNC]

Baseball has one cardinal sin dating back to the Black Sox. You do not bet on games. It was posted in every locker room Pete was ever in as a player and a manager. There was already precedent that your punishment would be exorbitantly harsh.

Yet he did it anyway as a player and as a manager and lied about it for decades. He has continued to lie about it to this day, even when he was supposedly coming clean.

There's no way he should ever be reinstated ahead of, say, Shoeless Joe Jackson.

You cannot argue his accomplishments on the field, but he broke the rule of baseball. Sad thing is if he were honest with Giamatti he'd probably be back in the sport in some way by now.

[makoti]

Baseball has one cardinal sin dating back to the Black Sox. You do not bet on games. It was posted in every locker room Pete was ever in as a player and a manager. There was already precedent that your punishment would be exorbitantly harsh.

Yet he did it anyway as a player and as a manager and lied about it for decades. He has continued to lie about it to this day, even when he was supposedly coming clean.

There's no way he should ever be reinstated ahead of, say, Shoeless Joe Jackson.

You cannot argue his accomplishments on the field, but he broke the rule of baseball. Sad thing is if he were honest with Giamatti he'd probably be back in the sport in some way by now.

This, this, a thousand times this.

[Elefantino]

Sad thing is if he were honest with Giamatti he'd probably be back in the sport in some way by now.
And Giamatti might not have died of a heart attack.

[rugbysecondrow]

Baseball has one cardinal sin dating back to the Black Sox. You do not bet on games. It was posted in every locker room Pete was ever in as a player and a manager. There was already precedent that your punishment would be exorbitantly harsh.

Yet he did it anyway as a player and as a manager and lied about it for decades. He has continued to lie about it to this day, even when he was supposedly coming clean.

There's no way he should ever be reinstated ahead of, say, Shoeless Joe Jackson.

You cannot argue his accomplishments on the field, but he broke the rule of baseball. Sad thing is if he were honest with Giamatti he'd probably be back in the sport in some way by now.

I agree, but I think I see the HOF as being separate from the business operations of the game. The HOF system is based on a decision made by a few on the sum of ones accomplishments. People should have the opportunity to have the players up for a vote. It might be unsuccessful for the lies, gambling, cheating etc, but it might not be. If ones greatness on the field outweighs the bad, then the votes will reflect that. Some will never think Sosa or McGuire are HOF players and the votes reflect t his. Folks KNOW Pete Rose is.

Baseball likes to hold itself up on a pedestal as being righteous and above reproach in their dealings, and they have a poor history in many respects. They welcomed the steroid era and rejoiced as they made huge money. That was wrong, and the league is going through a correction. We, as fans, forgive them and move forward. We are nearly 30 years removed from Pete Rose's issues, it is time to move on and let him be voted on.

[Tony T]

Will the "next" revelation be that he bet against the Reds?

[FlashUNC]

I agree, but I think I see the HOF as being separate from the business operations of the game. The HOF system is based on a decision made by a few on the sum of ones accomplishments. People should have the opportunity to have the players up for a vote. It might be unsuccessful for the lies, gambling, cheating etc, but it might not be. If ones greatness on the field outweighs the bad, then the votes will reflect that. Some will never think Sosa or McGuire are HOF players and the votes reflect t his. Folks KNOW Pete Rose is.

Baseball likes to hold itself up on a pedestal as being righteous and above reproach in their dealings, and they have a poor history in many respects. They welcomed the steroid era and rejoiced as they made huge money. That was wrong, and the league is going through a correction. We, as fans, forgive them and move forward. We are nearly 30 years removed from Pete Rose's issues, it is time to move on and let him be voted on.

If they do that, then let the Black Sox back in and let voters vote on them as well. Shoeless Joe was railroaded at the time. The evidence that he participated in the fix is still flimsy at best.

If you let in a guy where you've got his betting slips, then you absolutely have to let back in Shoeless Joe.

Let Pete back in. I'd love to see him jump through hoops to try to get the votes. It would be the finest theater.

[rugbysecondrow]

If they do that, then let the Black Sox back in and let voters vote on them as well. Shoeless Joe was railroaded at the time. The evidence that he participated in the fix is still flimsy at best.

If you let in a guy where you've got his betting slips, then you absolutely have to let back in Shoeless Joe.

Let Pete back in. I'd love to see him jump through hoops to try to get the votes. It would be the finest theater.

I have no problem with them being able to be voted into the HOF, although I am not certain if their eligibility will have lapsed.

[Tony T]

If the rules were to be overlooked to let Pete be eligible for voting into the HOF, we can bend any eligibility rules for Joe Jackson :)

[Tony T]

NYT: Pete Rose Ban Upheld by Baseball Commissioner Rob Manfred (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/15/sports/baseball/pete-rose-ban-mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news)

Rob Manfred, the commissioner of Major League Baseball, has decided not to lift the permanent ban imposed on Pete Rose more than a quarter-century ago, meaning the player with more hits than anyone else in the sport's history will continue to be kept out of the Hall of Fame.

"In short," Mr. Manfred concluded in the report, "Mr. Rose has not presented credible evidence of a reconfigured life either by an honest acceptance by him of his wrongdoing or by a rigorous, self-aware and sustained program of avoidance by him of all the cirucmstances that led to his permanent ineligibility in 1989."

[christian]

In short(er), Pete Rose remains Pete Rose.

[FlashUNC]

He said he continues to bet on baseball. Even today.

The idiocy of Pete Rose boggles the mind.

[mg2ride]

Self-righteousness rules the day.

Bet on Pete!

[93legendti]

Baseball has one cardinal sin dating back to the Black Sox. You do not bet on games. It was posted in every locker room Pete was ever in as a player and a manager. There was already precedent that your punishment would be exorbitantly harsh.

Yet he did it anyway as a player and as a manager and lied about it for decades. He has continued to lie about it to this day, even when he was supposedly coming clean.

There's no way he should ever be reinstated ahead of, say, Shoeless Joe Jackson.

You cannot argue his accomplishments on the field, but he broke the rule of baseball. Sad thing is if he were honest with Giamatti he'd probably be back in the sport in some way by now.

Yup. Every player knows you can't bet on baseball. Period. No exceptions.

Not to mention, the claim that his betting on games didn't influence the games can't be verified.

[kevinvc]

This story is so damn painful to me. Baseball was the only sport I followed while growing up. The Reds were my favorite team and Rose was my favorite player. I even named a stuffed rabbit I got for Easter one year after him.

Sadly, I have to acknowledge that, despite being as hard a competitor as has ever played the game, he is a vain, stupid man who broke the cardinal rule of the sport, has lied about it every step of the way and shows remorse only for the consequences of getting caught, not for the transgression itself.

I agree with others that if he had come completely clean, told the whole story and shown any kind of regret and attempts at rehabilitation, he would likely be in the HOF. He has always admitted to the bare minimum after the proof has come out.

He should not be eligible for the HOF regardless of whether he only bet on the Reds to win, which is hardly proven fact at this point. The way one plays or manages a single game over the course of a 162 game season can be very different if he has money riding on it. For example, as a manager do you send your closer out on the third consecutive night to try to seal a win or do you let him rest? As a player, do you sprint full speed on a routine pop fly or do you jog slowly if you have a sore hamstring? Having money wagered on the game could influence those decisions.

[wc1934]

If they do that, then let the Black Sox back in and let voters vote on them as well. Shoeless Joe was railroaded at the time. The evidence that he participated in the fix is still flimsy at best.

If you let in a guy where you've got his betting slips, then you absolutely have to let back in Shoeless Joe.

Let Pete back in. I'd love to see him jump through hoops to try to get the votes. It would be the finest theater.

Agree with everything you stated in your first post and everything in this one except "Let Pete back in. I'd love to see him jump through hoops to try to get the votes. It would be the finest theater". Baseball and TV need to permanently ban him (I was upset that he was on fox during the playoffs - he did not last long - he pulled out to do an autograph show in Vegas).
As for Jackson - (Say it ain't so Joe), he got screwed - For the series he batted .375 - his regular season average for his career was "only" .356 -

[makoti]

This story is so damn painful to me. Baseball was the only sport I followed while growing up. The Reds were my favorite team and Rose was my favorite player. I even named a stuffed rabbit I got for Easter one year after him.

Sadly, I have to acknowledge that, despite being as hard a competitor as has ever played the game, he is a vain, stupid man who broke the cardinal rule of the sport, has lied about it every step of the way and shows remorse only for the consequences of getting caught, not for the transgression itself.

I agree with others that if he had come completely clean, told the whole story and shown any kind of regret and attempts at rehabilitation, he would likely be in the HOF. He has always admitted to the bare minimum after the proof has come out.

He should not be eligible for the HOF regardless of whether he only bet on the Reds to win, which is hardly proven fact at this point. The way one plays or manages a single game over the course of a 162 game season can be very different if he has money riding on it. For example, as a manager do you send your closer out on the third consecutive night to try to seal a win or do you let him rest? As a player, do you sprint full speed on a routine pop fly or do you jog slowly if you have a sore hamstring? Having money wagered on the game could influence those decisions.

I can understand your disappointment in Rose. I've felt the same way when news broke about some stupid thing a player of "my" team did, usually involving drugs.
I also agree that Rose should never, EVER be allowed in the hall. And why WAS he at the series? He's banned. That seems pretty all-encompassing. Anyway, good news today.
Now, if someone could just explain to me how Serena Williams got sportsperson of the year over the Royals or even the horse, I'd be really happy. (She finished 11th in the fan voting, so that entire thing was clearly a waste of everyones' time)

[rzthomas]

As a former Cincinnatian, I love Pete Rose. It's part of the deal with being from SW Ohio (loving gross chili is another). Anyway, the guy is a moron, but I still love him. My dear-and-now-departed Bubby held on to the hope that he'd make his way into the HoF someday, but she knew it wasn't likely.

[FlashUNC]

I can understand your disappointment in Rose. I've felt the same way when news broke about some stupid thing a player of "my" team did, usually involving drugs.
I also agree that Rose should never, EVER be allowed in the hall. And why WAS he at the series? He's banned. That seems pretty all-encompassing. Anyway, good news today.
Now, if someone could just explain to me how Serena Williams got sportsperson of the year over the Royals or even the horse, I'd be really happy. (She finished 11th in the fan voting, so that entire thing was clearly a waste of everyones' time)

SI has never given their award to a non-human. If Secretariat couldn't win it, well, American Pharoah isn't in Secretariat's league...

Serena was a heartbreaking US Open loss away from a calendar Grand Slam, dominates women's tennis the way few dominate their sport, and was more or less unstoppable the entire year. She's also the first solo woman to ever win the award.

There were worse picks. I don't see how they could pick the horse when they didn't pick the greatest horse of all time when they had the chance. (Jackie Stewart won in 1973, fwiw.)

[makoti]

SI has never given their award to a non-human. If Secretariat couldn't win it, well, American Pharoah isn't in Secretariat's league...

Serena was a heartbreaking US Open loss away from a calendar Grand Slam, dominates women's tennis the way few dominate their sport, and was more or less unstoppable the entire year. She's also the first solo woman to ever win the award.

There were worse picks. I don't see how they could pick the horse when they didn't pick the greatest horse of all time when they had the chance. (Jackie Stewart won in 1973, fwiw.)

I found it funny that their winner finished so far down their fan voting. The horse (which I agree shouldn't even be considered for something like this) was, as in his races, a runaway winner, by some 70,000 votes, I think.

[marciero]

Probably a small point, but it seems that Manfred went to some lengths to make a distinction between his ruling on Rose's banishment from being actively involved in baseball, i.e, as a player, coach, etc, and his eligibility for HOF.

It is not a part of my authority or responsibility here to make any determination concerning Mr. Rose's eligibility as a candidate for election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame ...
... any debate over Mr. Rose's eligibility for the Hall of Fame is one that must take place in a different forum.

[makoti]

Probably a small point, but it seems that Manfred went to some lengths to make a distinction between his ruling on Rose's banishment from being actively involved in baseball, i.e, as a player, coach, etc, and his eligibility for HOF.

It is not a part of my authority or responsibility here to make any determination concerning Mr. Rose's eligibility as a candidate for election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame ...
... any debate over Mr. Rose's eligibility for the Hall of Fame is one that must take place in a different forum.

I don't think he has any real control over who the HOF takes in, but I think a requirement may be that you are not banned from the game. Could be wrong on that, but it seems a logical requirement.

[soulspinner]

He said he continues to bet on baseball. Even today.

The idiocy of Pete Rose boggles the mind.

Right? Has he any credibility about never effecting the outcome of a game?

[FlashUNC]

I don't think he has any real control over who the HOF takes in, but I think a requirement may be that you are not banned from the game. Could be wrong on that, but it seems a logical requirement.

Its not, but the HOF and BBWAA has generally taken the stance that banned players will not gain admittance.

Its the reason Shoeless Joe isn't in.

So its another unwritten rule. I'd love to see him on the ballot just to see the Internet melt down.

[wc1934]

Now, if someone could just explain to me how Serena Williams got sportsperson of the year over the Royals or even the horse, I'd be really happy. (She finished 11th in the fan voting, so that entire thing was clearly a waste of everyones' time)

hahah - did you see where she took a cab (to the finish) during her own charity run.