Managing the Missing 16T Cog in 11-25 Cassette

[Splash]

Hello All.

I read on the internet that some riders do not like the large gap between 15T and 17T for the 11-25 cassette - creating an annoying jump in the middle of what most would deem as the 'sweet spot' for optimum cadence and gear gear changing.

Many riders prefer the 12-25T cassette (or others) which contains the 16T cog stating that this 16T cog in the middle is more useful to them than the 11T that gets used very infrequently at speeds.

For you riders who use the 11-25T rear cassette (and find the missing 16T cog an issue), what are your thoughts on not having this 16T cog and how do you manage this missing cog which many claim to be very important for road cycling..?

Do you find this missing cog annoying and how do you compensate for this missing cog to maintain optimal cadence in this gear range?

And, will 11 speed assist in overcoming this gap between 15T and 17T cog in anyway over the 10speed?

I know the 11-25T has it's advantages and disadvantages over other rear cassettes in certain terrains and I know others will recommend other rear cassettes (which does contain the 16T cog) or making up your own cassette, but not really interested in that expected response - but instead for responses only around retaining and using the standard 11-25T 11 - speed rear cassette in particular and with no change to the addition or removal or sprockets.....just interested in how they overcome this gap (if it is an issue) when riding on the bike..


Thank you


Splash

[Anarchist]

Design your own ...

http://clemenzo.com/en/marchisio/10-speed-cassettes

[bicycletricycle]

Unless you really like going 50mph downhill I don't think that an 11 is really that useful , especially in standard road gearing (52,53 big ring) sacrificing the 11 for a useful gear in the middle is a no brainer.

[kramnnim]

The 11sp Campy 11-25 has a 16t...

[Splash]

Thanks Guys.

Intersting link there Anarchist.

bicylcletricycle - How would classify a 'useful' gear in the middle of a rear cassette? What criteria would you use to measure this 'useful' gear?


SPlash

[Ralph]

Since I ride mostly on the flats, or slightly rolling easy hills, and my big ring is a 52, and much of my riding with my old fart group is flat out.....I use a 16 a lot. Actually I use a 52X19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14 all the time. 13 and 12 not so much. 11 I have no use for. 12...not much use for. 13 only with a tail wind and a tad down hill. Speeds usually under 30 MPH under power. I don't get the need for 11 for most on here, no matter where you live....unless your big ring is a 44-46 or something.

[Splash]

Thanks Ralph.

What cadence do you maintain mostly? Is yours an 11 speed? Are you a sinner or grinder?

All - have you had any issues relating to shifting and indexing plates in between the sprockets?

PS - I just found a great link re: gear ratios - good share:

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/beyond-the-big-ring-understanding-gear-ratios-and-why-they-matter/

SpLash

[bicycletricycle]

I would say a useful gear is a gear that I'm likely to use often.

I live in a flat place and don't participate in sprint finishes of any kind so the "middle" of the range gearing is useful.

I spend most of my time on my commuter chapman with a 38t front and an ultegra 11 speed 11-32 in back.

I use the 11 sometimes but would rather it was a 12 or 13-32 with a tighter middle range.

Also, I don't do group rides anymore so I can tune my speed to get a good cadence with available gearing.

If your speed is driven by the group than you have to ride at the cadence your
gearing can offer which makes this kind of thing more important.

[Splash]

Thanks.

Does any anyone miss the 18T sprocket in their 11 speed 11-25T rear cassette that may cause spinning too fast, shifting up then spinning too slow?

I see that with the the 18T not present, a 15% jump occurs in ratios, compared to others <10%

http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Thoughts?


Splash

[thirdgenbird]

I ride a 12-23 10spd and love the tight gaps but miss the 25. A 12-25 11spd sounds dreamy.

[saab2000]

With my standard cranks I use 12-25 cassettes and now with my 11-speed Shimano stuff I use a 12-25 and a 12-28. I give up nothing on the 12-25 and on the other one only give up the 18. 11 tooth cogs are useless to me, especially with the standard 53-tooth chainring. I'd much rather have that 16 or 18 instead of an 11.

Unless you are a Cat 2 or above you probably don't really 'need' an 11 with a standard crankset unless you live in a mountainous area.

[Splash]

Thanks guys.

What sprocket woudl be more important to have - 18T or 16T?

SPlash

[thirdgenbird]

Thanks guys.

What sprocket woudl be more important to have - 18T or 16T?

SPlash

Depends on your chainrings, preferred cadence, the roads you ride and the speed at which you ride. More simply put, where do you spend most of your time in the cassette?

[kramnnim]

I've spent thousands of hours with an 11-25 and never thought "Hmm, I wish I had an 18t"

[thirdgenbird]

I've spent thousands of hours with an 11-25 and never thought "Hmm, I wish I had an 18t"

I agree, but my 18t cogs see way more use than any 11t I've had.

[Splash]

Thanks Guys.

On the 11 speed 53/39 11/25 setup, I spend most of my time on 14-15 actually.

The 11T Sprocket helps to produce straighter chain alignment when in the big ring as it pushes the whole set of sprockets up (compared to say if I had something starting at 12T).

But, that missing 18T sprocket sounds like I need to watch out (and give more consideration to) in terms of that larger % change in sprocket / gearing ration...


Splash

[saab2000]

You need to do whatever is most comfortable to you and not worry about what others do. Don't think too much about this stuff. Just ride what you like. But the 11 is just as you mentioned, a spacer. Not a fan personally. Don't worry about the chainline. Modern drivetrains can handle most things pretty well.

[Splash]

Unless you really like going 50mph downhill I don't think that an 11 is really that useful , especially in standard road gearing (52,53 big ring) sacrificing the 11 for a useful gear in the middle is a no brainer.

I actually find the 11 useful when in large group riding at a fast pace over a long distance where the draft effect can be huge and we are blistering along at a very high speed. Keeping up with this hot pace for a long period would be harder (IMO) with any less gearing than 53/11.


Splash

[oldpotatoe]

Since I ride mostly on the flats, or slightly rolling easy hills, and my big ring is a 52, and much of my riding with my old fart group is flat out.....I use a 16 a lot. Actually I use a 52X19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14 all the time. 13 and 12 not so much. 11 I have no use for. 12...not much use for. 13 only with a tail wind and a tad down hill. Speeds usually under 30 MPH under power. I don't get the need for 11 for most on here, no matter where you live....unless your big ring is a 44-46 or something.

Agree. If Campagnolo made a 13-25 11s, that's what I'd get. Straight thru 21t, 23, 25. I never use my 12t, my 16 and 18 all the time, have a 12-25 and 50/36 crank.

[Birddog]

I think the 16 tooth is called the "sweet spot" because it is about right where a lot of paceline and group rides sit. If the pace is right for a 16 and you only have a 15 or 17 it can be a little uncomfortable. Personally, it matters not to me. I have several cassettes that don't have a 16 and I don't really miss it. You are probably overthinking this issue. I ride a compact on one bike and on it I like the 11 and use it frequently albeit usually when I'm going at least a bit downhill.

[shovelhd]

I actually find the 11 useful when in large group riding at a fast pace over a long distance where the draft effect can be huge and we are blistering along at a very high speed. Keeping up with this hot pace for a long period would be harder (IMO) with any less gearing than 53/11.


Splash

Your cadence must be in the 70's.

I use the 11 enough to be glad I have it. I used it several times today, on the front of a group going down a long 6% grade.

A Shimano 11 speed 11-25 has the 16T. The 11-23 has both the 16T and 18T.

[thirdgenbird]

Agree. If Campagnolo made a 13-25 11s, that's what I'd get. Straight thru 21t, 23, 25. I never use my 12t, my 16 and 18 all the time, have a 12-25 and 50/36 crank.

I would try 13-25

Your cadence must be in the 70's.

Making my advice useless. According to my Garmin, I average mid to high 90s.

[Ryun]

Again useful is very dependent on where you are and what you do.
In flat florida, the 11t is certainly more useful than a 25t.
Seems like I use mine a ton but we have some pretty fast group rides where stretches at 32-34 are common.

People like the 16t cause it is that 22-24 mph range in the big ring or 18mph ish in the small.
Back when you could buy cogs seperately, I can remember replacing the just the 16t pretty often

[Splash]

Good information guys. Keep it coming....

What is more important - the 16T or 18T sprocket? I do have the 16T sprocket on my rear cassette but wondering what impact not having the 18T sprocket has...?


I am considering the P2M Type S Campag 11 speed PM and they can offer it in the Compact as well as Standard, So, considering the Compact which will have a bearing on the choice of rear cassette I use going forward, so this information in this thread is important to me in my choice..

Splash

[shovelhd]

Making my advice useless. According to my Garmin, I average mid to high 90s.

I was referring to Splash.

[thirdgenbird]

I was referring to Splash.

Yes.

I was clarifying that my gearing advice won't do him much good considering how our riding style differs.

[ultraman6970]

IMO it depends. but in general 16 is one of those cogs that can take you everywhere and almost all the cassettes I have seen have it, but is not the case of the 18 for example.

My personal case is that I like more even cogs than un-even ones, same with chainrings, when I came back to riding took me a while to get used to the 39 chainring. And all the stuff i try to get almost all the time contains 15-16-17-18. Whatever is up or down of that block i dont care too much because rarely use it.

[palincss]

Thanks Ralph.

What cadence do you maintain mostly? Is yours an 11 speed? Are you a sinner or grinder?


Amen, brother! I think you meant to say "spinner," I don't think we're having a revival here. :)

[Splash]

Excellent post Ultraman6970.

Do you still ride with the 39 chain ring?

What is your large chainring size?

Would it be possible to add in an 18T sprocket into my 11-25T rear cassette without any functional dramas?


Splash

[Splash]

Amen, brother! I think you meant to say "spinner," I don't think we're having a revival here. :)

Oopps - Sorry Ralph! :-)

[ultraman6970]

Yes I still use the 39... they dont sell cranksets with 42's no more like back in the day, where 42 was standard for everybody. But if i had to choose right now I like better the 36 than the 39... same with the 50 or 52 over the 53... but since Im not racing my big chainrings see almost no use.

Yes you can add a 18... in campagnolo you need to know in which position must be so the cut outs of the cog are in the right position (potato sure knows more about this than I do), sure you know what im talking about. The second way is get custom cog from miche for example. I do have an 11 speed one custom made that is pretty much a straight block 12 up to 18 then jump 21-23-25-27 or something like that.

THe other option you have is to find a cassette in another model that has the 18 in the position you want and just move it over to the other cassette. Remember I sold one that I dont even remember how it got to my hands that was like a mix of a centaur, veloce and record, even had a 29 or a 30 cog in it.

But pretty much you can built your stuff as long as the cogs are in the right position, for example you will have problems shifting (it will shift badly but it will shift) if the 18 you want is in the 8th/7th position and the 18 you are trying to transplant in comes set to run in 5th/4th position. The curved teeth are in the wrong place... so it will shift like crap (chain might skip) but it will shift tho. So you have to find the one that has the curved teeth in the right place. With campagnolo cogs i believe they can be used in 2 positions but im not that sure... potato sure knows.

With Shimano I imagine is the samething.

Hope this helps


Excellent post Ultraman6970.

Do you still ride with the 39 chain ring?

What is your large chainring size?

Would it be possible to add in an 18T sprocket into my 11-25T rear cassette without any functional dramas?


Splash

[Splash]

interesting - thanks for that insight. Oldpotatoe - feel free to add to this post on the addition of an 18T sprocket into this 11-25T rear cassette.

Massive jump from 18 to 21 - how did you manage that without too much concern?


Splash

[giordana93]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J-oqg9Zm5VA/VWj7lqFeUJI/AAAAAAAAGtM/8qbeCmGPNz8/s1600/goodgrief.gif

I don't know how we managed with 5 and 6 speed freewheels. Seriously, I was on a fast group ride today on my 1993 Giordana and its original 8 speed Dura-Ace. Never once thought that the 13-23 was inadequate. no 16, no 18. No 11 or 12 either obviously. If you routinely ride over 30 mph (50 km) or faster, an 11 or 12 is handy, even necessary in a group to maintain contact, but not otherwise. Likewise, a 16 is a luxury afforded by todays 10 and 11 sp groups, but if your power band is so narrow that you can't either grind a little more at a lower cadence in the 15 or pick the cadence up a notch in the 17, then a 16 tooth cog is not really the problem. Now if you happen to find yourself often at that perfect 16 tooth speed and missing it often you either give up the 11 or 25, or you go to a compact or some other compromise. But really, I think you are overthinking this one. Until you find yourself on a ride really missing that gear, it's still something you just "read on the internet". (Which is also where you found this advice, worth every penny you paid for it! :beer:

Don't want to sound flip, btw, hope that was clear. Since you seem to be interested in this kind of stuff, you might want to check out this page. Fun for figuring out your perfect compromise gearing, best suited to your riding habits:

http://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence

One last thing. It's best to have the one tooth jumps in the smaller cogs, which is when you are going faster. When an 18 or 19 gets too tall on the small ring, you're looking for a bigger bail out; if you have reached the point on the big ring then you should make a front shift to the small ring since that's around the "crossover" point (i.e. Duplicate gears on big and small chainrings)

[giordana93]

Massive jump from 18 to 21 - how did you manage that without too much concern?


Splash

The last paragraph of my post above explains this one. A 3 tooth jump is not as massive at 18-21 as it would be at 12-15 and it comes at a time when you want a big jump (climbing) or where the gap is actually filled by dropping back to the small ring up front to avoid cross chaining. A 39/15 is pretty close to filling the gap between your 53/18 and 53/21 and gets you back down in the meat of the cassette where the jumps are 1 or 2 tooth max.

[sg8357]

I like a 16-19-22 freewheel on my Wm. J. Hood, front ring is a 46.
Osgear Super Champion changer.

[RyanH]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J-oqg9Zm5VA/VWj7lqFeUJI/AAAAAAAAGtM/8qbeCmGPNz8/s1600/goodgrief.gif

I don't know how we managed with 5 and 6 speed freewheels. Seriously, I was on a fast group ride today on my 1993 Giordana and its original 8 speed Dura-Ace. Never once thought that the 13-23 was inadequate. no 16, no 18. No 11 or 12 either obviously. If you routinely ride over 30 mph (50 km) or faster, an 11 or 12 is handy, even necessary in a group to maintain contact, but not otherwise. Likewise, a 16 is a luxury afforded by todays 10 and 11 sp groups, but if your power band is so narrow that you can't either grind a little more at a lower cadence in the 15 or pick the cadence up a notch in the 17, then a 16 tooth cog is not really the problem. Now if you happen to find yourself often at that perfect 16 tooth speed and missing it often you either give up the 11 or 25, or you go to a compact or some other compromise. But really, I think you are overthinking this one. Until you find yourself on a ride really missing that gear, it's still something you just "read on the internet". (Which is also where you found this advice, worth every penny you paid for it! :beer:


This is all that I can think when I see this thread or hear people talk about missing a cog.

[Birddog]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j-oqg9zm5va/vwj7lqfeuji/aaaaaaaagtm/8qbecmgpnz8/s1600/goodgrief.gif

i don't know how we managed with 5 and 6 speed freewheels. Seriously, i was on a fast group ride today on my 1993 giordana and its original 8 speed dura-ace. Never once thought that the 13-23 was inadequate. No 16, no 18. No 11 or 12 either obviously. If you routinely ride over 30 mph (50 km) or faster, an 11 or 12 is handy, even necessary in a group to maintain contact, but not otherwise. Likewise, a 16 is a luxury afforded by todays 10 and 11 sp groups, but if your power band is so narrow that you can't either grind a little more at a lower cadence in the 15 or pick the cadence up a notch in the 17, then a 16 tooth cog is not really the problem. Now if you happen to find yourself often at that perfect 16 tooth speed and missing it often you either give up the 11 or 25, or you go to a compact or some other compromise. But really, i think you are overthinking this one. Until you find yourself on a ride really missing that gear, it's still something you just "read on the internet". (which is also where you found this advice, worth every penny you paid for it! :beer:

Don't want to sound flip, btw, hope that was clear. Since you seem to be interested in this kind of stuff, you might want to check out this page. Fun for figuring out your perfect compromise gearing, best suited to your riding habits:

http://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence

one last thing. It's best to have the one tooth jumps in the smaller cogs, which is when you are going faster. When an 18 or 19 gets too tall on the small ring, you're looking for a bigger bail out; if you have reached the point on the big ring then you should make a front shift to the small ring since that's around the "crossover" point (i.e. Duplicate gears on big and small chainrings)
nailed it

[Splash]

thanks rhcman

[RyanH]

Sorry, that came across worse than intended.

[kramnnim]

I am considering the P2M Type S Campag 11 speed PM and they can offer it in the Compact as well as Standard, So, considering the Compact which will have a bearing on the choice of rear cassette I use going forward, so this information in this thread is important to me in my choice..

Splash

Highly recommend the 52/36 combo.

[djg21]

Unless you really like going 50mph downhill I don't think that an 11 is really that useful , especially in standard road gearing (52,53 big ring) sacrificing the 11 for a useful gear in the middle is a no brainer.

An 11 speed cog is pretty useless. If you are going fast enough to spin a 53/12 or 52/12 on a downhill, you probably could go faster be getting into a tuck and coasting, or spinning a 12 faster. Even with a compact 50t chainring, the 11 is still a very big gear. I prefer a 12-25 and find I get far more use from my 15-16-17 cogs than I'd ever got from an 11 with either compact or mid-compacte gearing. Get a 12 and spin faster!

[kramnnim]

I keep seeing various people say that the 11t is not needed, etc. 400-500w at 115rpm and 40mph is somewhat unpleasant, 125rpm would be even worse.

[Splash]

Highly recommend the 52/36 combo.

Thanks.

Why not the full 50/34 combo?


SPlash

[giordana93]

Thanks.

Why not the full 50/34 combo?


SPlash

Because more than likely his needs dictate the slightly higher gearing afforded by the 53/36, which is still lower than a 53/39, or even a 55/xx. When I first started riding at race speeds in the mid80's, the hot set up for flatlander south Louisiana was a 44/52. 53s were still uncommon and front derailleurs couldn't handle much more than the ubiquitous 52/42. A 44 gave a nice crossover with the 52 (as well as an easily managed 8-tooth fd shift) and in the absence of any hills, it was a rare headwind where a 44x21 or 23 couldn't be managed. If I lived in the Rockies, no doubt I would want a different set up, and young fit me riding in fast groups would want a different combo than old fat me tooling around enjoying the scenery. We are really spoiled these days by the available gears.
Anybody remember old Frank Berto devising crazy gearing and double shifts with crossover points one practically had to tape to the bar?

[shovelhd]

An 11 speed cog is pretty useless. If you are going fast enough to spin a 53/12 or 52/12 on a downhill, you probably could go faster be getting into a tuck and coasting, or spinning a 12 faster. Even with a compact 50t chainring, the 11 is still a very big gear. I prefer a 12-25 and find I get far more use from my 15-16-17 cogs than I'd ever got from an 11 with either compact or mid-compacte gearing. Get a 12 and spin faster!

Useless for you, not for me.

[kramnnim]

I really liked the 50/34 in the Alps where the climbs were an hour long and I was too scared to go fast downhill. For the area where I live, the 34t felt uselessly small.

I suppose it all comes down to what you're used to, though.

[oldpotatoe]

interesting - thanks for that insight. Oldpotatoe - feel free to add to this post on the addition of an 18T sprocket into this 11-25T rear cassette.

Massive jump from 18 to 21 - how did you manage that without too much concern?


Splash

When not 'synced'(just adding an 18 in there), you may need to shift up twice(to 19), then down to the 18. I think the 'value' of 11s..12-25, no 18, 12-25 11s..yes. 11-25, 10s no 16t..11s yes. but it just depends. When I ride I don't really 'feel' a big difference between 1 tooth shifts to 2 tooth shifts. (18 to 19 or 19 to 21)...I think the things to consider on a cogset is the extremes, mostly the lowest gear. It's always a real pain to go ride, want to go somewhere and you 'need' a 25 when you have a 23 orrr'need a 29 when you have a 25, type thing. BUT IMHO, I think few people 'need' a 11t, particularly when it means losing an interior cog.