OT: Any Recruiters/HR people in house?

[azrider]

Curious if those who are in the profession of seeking/interviewing/recruiting could help answer a simple question.

When is it appropriate to bring up: "What is your current salary?"

Has this become a common question to ask within the first couple of interactions? I'm happy with my current job and am not actively looking, but sometimes answer recruiters/HR requests for a phone call to discuss another role and as of late it seems to me that most ask the "how much do you make" or "what was your last W2" question quite early.

Wouldn't it be better to vet capabilities before going straight to prior salary?

A 'major' software company literally went straight to this question and after inquiring as to why, they said it better determines JR from SR level. Is that really the case?

Mods delete if you see fit.

[Louis]

You could reply back "What do you think I'm worth to your company?"

(not sure if that's a good idea or not, but it might be one way to start a mutually useful conversation on salary)

[Gsinill]

I am neither a recruiter nor an HR person but I am in the IT/SW business too and get contacted by recruiters from time to time.

I am also not actively looking but have no problem to explore and put out my feelers to stay up-to-date.

One of my first questions is about a rough salary range as well. Why waste anybody's time if the pay is way lower than what I would go for?

BTW, I don't think that was ever taken the wrong way...

This said, the same applies to the folks looking to fill a position, IMHO.

[Aaron O]

I know it's not what you want to hear, and it took me a long while to be ok doing it...but lie. Interpret the question as "how much do I think I'm worth?" There is no way in hell answering it can benefit you, and I think it's an offensive, though common, question to ask. Another strategy is to answer that you get bonuses and have a benefits heavy package, so it's hard to give a dollar amount without comparing total compensation.

They're either asking as a preface to setting dollars, or to see whether it's worth the time to interview you. If they say it pays this range, they give that decision power to the applicant, and potentially pay more. Sometimes it's also a way of asking if you're really in the category of employment they want. Regardless - it doesn't benefit you. Answer it in such a way that it does - by filtering them if too low, or setting the bar on your terms.

I am not an HR guy at all, but I do manage human resources for a client. Don't ask. I have too much respect for candidates to ask that...I've directed them not to use that question - there are more up front ways to get the same benefits.

[azrider]

Yes I agree that it makes sense to get through the salary question so that no ones time is wasted.

However, if you lie and they ask you for proof from your W2 your SOL.

[sfscott]

My wife is a recruiter for large hedge funds and private equity firms, and I have interacted with recruiters as a candidate.

She (and others) always want to know salary info. It helps to qualify that both your interest and their time are matched. In some industries like sales or those whose comp includes a large bonus component, total comp can also help pinpoint how you are performing generally.

Most companies of any size subscribe to compensation data for their industry and locales. Salary ranges are banded by role, size of company and competitiveness of market. Most choose to be either at or below market with some exceptions.

I would not be concerned about asking--or providing--comp data.

As a hiring manager, it's helpful to me to know if I should even interview someone because I may have zero chance to land them.

[Aaron O]

Yes I agree that it makes sense to get through the salary question so that no ones time is wasted.

However, if you lie and they ask you for proof from your W2 your SOL.

I have never heard of anyone asking for proof from a w-2. If they did, I'd respond I don't feel comfortable providing that.

[azrider]

I did last week from a "large"....bordering on huge software company

[Polyglot]

Before becoming self-employed where such questions are moot, I was often the target of hear hunters. My answer to this type of question was generally: "I presently earn $X plus all the other benefits that I have accrued. I am happy where I am but am always available to consider new opportunities, however let's be clear that I would not consider moving unless it was a worthwhile change."

You should never need to present a past W-2 to any employer if you don't want. The only negative with not presenting it is that you may be required, if the new salary is substantially higher than your previous salary, to front a bit more in taxes (which would be refunded after filing your taxes).

[Ken Robb]

Assuming that a recruiter called you first I think I would say "I'm doing quite well where I am but I'm willing to listen to proposals. What compensation package would be available for the position you want to fill?"

I agree that there's no sense in wasting time on either side but there is a big difference between a recruiter telling the salary range he can offer and asking an individual how much he makes.

[jmoore]

I have never heard of anyone asking for proof from a w-2. If they did, I'd respond I don't feel comfortable providing that.

when I took a position in Jan 2014 with a startup, I had to provide 2 years worth of W2's

[PJN]

Here is another one - should an applicant list base salary or total cash compensation?

[Louis]

Here is another one - should an applicant list base salary or total cash compensation?

I would think it depends on what they're asking for. If you aren't sure, find out.

[Bradford]

I won't answer that question and I wouldn't provide any private information, especially W2s.

I'm happy to talk salary on the first call. I ask them the range, I either say that will work or counter with a number that makes me comfortable. But it is none of their business what I make.

Years ago, when joined a Big Four firm, they asked me what I made. I said that was irrelevant, because I would only come for market rate. We agreed on a number and that was it. Later I learned that whenever people actually answered the question, the offer would be the current salary plus 10%. If I had answered the question, it would have cost me money.

[josephr]

I ask for w2s or paycheck stubs only if we can't verify employment history during the background check process, which is only after a conditional offer has been accepted.

Asking salary upfront is making sure you're not wasting anyone's time --- I've been recruiting 16 years and its frustrating to see 1) a company with a low salary range or 2)an unemployed guy who doesn't realize that his fat-and-happy desk job isn't going to happen anywhere else anytime soon.

[OtayBW]

When someone is interested in me and wants to know 'what salary I'm looking for', I rarely answer directly. You'll only pin yourself down. I certainly will not tell them 'what I make at my current job'. That's a bunch of hooey. At best, ask for their budgeted salary range for the position and tell then whether you are 'in their range' or not - or provide a broad range of your own. It's also a bit ridiculous to tell them your salary needs when, chances are, they haven't even shown you a position description or discussed in detail what value you can bring to the company with the actual hiring manager who can effectively evaluate your worth (how much will I accept to do 'what'?!). Keep your cards close to the vest with the bean counters and then talk in good faith - but tactfully, still keeping the poker analogy going - when you talk to someone who can hire you. IMO...

[Aaron O]

I have never heard of such a thing, nor would I give my W-2 to a company.

[Schmed]

On a similar note, I heard a story from a customer of mine that was asked his required salary range. He said: "I could work for as little as $x/year".

They offered him a job at $x/year.

His co-workers were making $x + 25% per year. He complained.

His boss said "hey - I can't offer you MORE than what you asked for".

Lesson learned.

[mgm777]

I am an a recruiter for a search firm(24 years).

Two scenarios:
1. If you get a call from a search firm recruiter, it is normally because they are working on a search assignment, and they have sourced you as someone who could be beneficial to the search as either a candidate or a resource. Asking the compensation question early on saves both parties a lot of time. The recruiter is asking because they simply want to know if the position they are currently working on will be a step up. Rarely do people make lateral compensation moves, using a recruiter. It is to your benefit to answer the question honestly....so that if the recruiter's current search isn't a match, perhaps the next search may be a possibility for you. During my career, I have helped many people secure better, higher paying opportunities, because we established a good connection/relationship on the first call, even though the initial search wasn't appropriate for them, at the time.

2. If an in-house recruiter or HR representative, from a company you are interested in working for, asks you how much you are currently making, they are doing so for the same reason. They want to ensure you are in the ball park for the open position. If your current salary is much higher than the open position, they probably won't pursue you, mainly because they are concerned they can't keep you or afford you. If you are making much less than the range for the open position, then they will scrutinize your current situation and ask why? Most HR directors/managers will bend over backwards to find a mutually agreeable compensation situation for you, once they have decided that you are a good match for their company and the position. Finding great talent is hard. That's why I have a job.

For the hiring company, compensation becomes less of an issue, if you interview like a rock star, establish a mutually beneficial and professional relationship, and demonstrate to the interviewers that you are much more than a resume, set of skills/experiences and a dollar requirement. Interviewing successfully is a lot like dating. Establish the relationship first. Show them you fit-in culturally with the organization first. Get them to like you. Get them to love you. Always be professional and courteous with all your communications. Always, always, express gratitude and enthusiasm in all your verbal and written communication. This goes a long way toward establishing the relationship and getting them to "love" you. Once you've accomplished that, the compensation discussion becomes much easier.

Just my two cents.

Michael

[shovelhd]

I always flip it around. If a recruiter or HR rep wants to know my salary or salary expectations, I ask what the range is and what their expectations are. This isn't an auction. Tell me what you expect to pay and I'll tell you if I'm still interested. If they won't do that, then it's not the right fit.

[OtayBW]

Asking the compensation question early on saves both parties a lot of time. The recruiter is asking because they simply want to know if the position they are currently working on will be a step up.... It is to your benefit to answer the question honestly....
I just could not disagree more. This is not to say that you should lie or otherwise be dishonest in responding, but one certainly does not have to divulge salary history to a recruiter. That's nuts and only serves the recruiter while putting the candidate at a serious disadvantage. You can come to some good faith understanding of whether you are in the compensation range for any given hypothetical position by many other means such as the post above ^.

[shovelhd]

The whole premise of this thread is backwards. The OP is asking their negotiation partner how to negotiate in their best interest. That's not what was specifically asked but that's what it amounts to.

[eddief]

I suggest to my clients to try to never be the first to divulge salary. I always encourage to be in a conversation where both parties are getting to know each other and learning the lay of the land. You could be in an industry that is notorious for low pay or maybe you've been in bureaucratic crappy corporation and your salary has been slow to increase. But maybe the person who saw your Linkedin profile is recruiting for a great job at a fast moving, well funded startup with money coming out of its butt. It behooves you to get them to play their card first and not pigeon hole yourself based on your current situation.

Granted, if you are happy in your job and don't want to play the game, then by all means, answer the question. But for job seekers out in the marketplace, I suggest a much more patient approach. In a multi-billion dollar corporation, they piss more money away on bagels than most of us make in salary. I suggest playing hardball for some of the "bagel" money. Not to mention the ratio of your salary to that of the beloved Marissa Mayer.

You might try: "Before we talk about salary, I'd love to hear more about the job."

Being a good negotiator is a valuable strength in most job situations and if you show some balls in the early hiring conversations...well, I think hiring managers ultimately like to hire folks with balls.

One of the simplest phrases to have in your arsenal after receiving THE OFFER is: I was wondering if you have any flexibility in the amount of compensation available for this job?

[OtayBW]

You might try: "Before we talk about salary, I'd love to hear more about the job."

Being a good negotiator is a valuable strength in most job situations and if you show some balls in the early hiring conversations...well, I think hiring managers ultimately like to hire folks with balls.Of course.
The things is, though, that you're really not ready to show some balls or even talk more seriously about the position and compensation until you get beyond the gatekeepers and to the hiring managers.

[eddief]

and to get the job and career they want. Not to be crass, but balls are important in every phase of the process. I try to match strategy with the client's personality. Some got em, some grow em.

Of course.
The things is, though, that you're really not ready to show some balls or even talk more seriously about the position and compensation until you get beyond the gatekeepers and to the hiring managers.

[1centaur]

I have found this an interesting thread. There is clearly a power struggle here. All the recruiters say it saves "both parties" time for the recruit to tell the recruiter what he makes. All the candidates say no way. It appears to me the recruiter is most interested in saving time because they have a whole field to plow while the recruit has time to spend because the approach is a one-off and the outcome of bigger consequence to them than the recruiter. If there is no match, the recruit's salary goes into a mental if not a physical database and the recruit gets nothing in return except the vague and usually fruitless hope that the recruiter will come back with a more suitable position because he knows your salary. That is a really bad trade.

No W2s; if they don't trust you at the start there is a problem and if they don't know (or care) what you're worth they never will.

[mgm777]

Search firm fees, contingency and retainers, are paid for by the hiring company, not the candidate, in most cases. When I present candidates to a company for a search, I am paid to know a lot about the candidates I present. That's my job. Part of that workup includes a salary history. I never only present one candidate to a company. Why? Companies, similar to individuals, like to have choices. If I present an opportunity to a prospective candidate, and that individual is cagey or deceptive when answering my questions, then I simply don't present them to the opportunity. They are not a match, simple as that. I don't withhold information from them. I will share confidential information with them about the opportunity, and expect the same in return. If that doesn't happen, then I simply won't work with them, and I will tell them so. Besides, any recruiter who has some tenure in the business, has a pretty good idea of what your compensation is anyway, based on your title and company. There are always outliers, but for the most part, we know, in general terms, what you are making.

If you are dealing directly with a company and you become cagey about divulging your compensation to an HR Rep, then you better hope that person thinks you are an absolute rock star for the position. Otherwise, they may simply go mysteriously silent and you'll never hear from them again. They will simply move on to the next candidate or continue to the search. If you are slippery in the interview process, odds are, you will be a slippery employee.

From an executive search perspective, I admit the process appears to be somewhat one-sided. That's because it is. The hiring company has paid the search firm to provide a service, and execute their search. As a recruiter, I don't find people jobs. Instead, I find great talent for the companies that hire me. If the job seeker wants to pay my fee, then that individual will be given intelligence leverage. That is not my business model, though. Speaking for myself, when a job seeker starts to play reindeer games with me, the process ends. I won't work with them, ever. Just the way it is. There are too many good people out there who want to do things honestly and ethically. If someone I am establishing a relationship with has been straight forward and honest with me throughout the process, I will advocate strongly, on their behalf, with the hiring company. Because I have been in the profession so long, I have had the opportunity to cement some really great company relationships. Based on those relationships, if I feel strongly about a candidate and I advocate on their behalf to the hiring company, that usually yields a positive outcome for both sides.

So, for those of you who want to play reindeer games and practice deception, go ahead and do so, at your own peril.

[OtayBW]

So, for those of you who want to play reindeer games and practice deception, go ahead and do so, at your own peril.Deception, huh? No, sir, officer. :p

[shovelhd]

It seems like we've struck a nerve.

It's not about being cagey or deceiving anyone. You cold called me. This is a phone screen. You want very personal information before I know anything worthwhile about the company and the position, because it saves you time. Well, my information is more important to me than your time. I am happy to disclose salary info during an in depth interview. Until then, you give me the range, and I'll tell you where I fit in it. If you move on, so be it. There's plenty of good tech management jobs out there, even at my advanced age.

[eddief]

Recruiters can be a great resource for job seekers, but have their way of doing business. And usually you give up a lot of control in your search and potential for negotiation by using their services. When you keep the control by networking into job opportunities on your own, then you avoid the middleman and can keep somewhat more control of the info gathering and when, and to what degree, specific money is disclosed.

I recommend using all avenues to find jobs and recruiters are a good one. But proactive job search where you are uncovering opportunities and gathering information yourself is the way two thirds of people find jobs; not internet, not recruiters. Use your resources accordingly

[mgm777]

^This exactly! Great advice!

[mgm777]

It seems like we've struck a nerve.

It's not about being cagey or deceiving anyone. You cold called me. This is a phone screen. You want very personal information before I know anything worthwhile about the company and the position, because it saves you time. Well, my information is more important to me than your time. I am happy to disclose salary info during an in depth interview. Until then, you give me the range, and I'll tell you where I fit in it. If you move on, so be it. There's plenty of good tech management jobs out there, even at my advanced age.

You are correct. If a recruiter cold calls you and immediately asks for your salary history, before you know anything about the opportunity, then you have a very good reason to feel suspect. The way I present an opportunity....I will call you, tell you why I am calling and how I identified you as a potential candidate. I will provide a brief overview of the opportunity, summarizing the company and the position, and why the position is open. I will also tell you the stated compensation range for position, as it was given to to me by the company. Then I will ask the candidate, based on what I just said, do they want to explore this further? If the answer is yes, I will send them some written material about the company, division and position and instruct them to do their own research, both direct and indirect about the company. I also ask them to discuss the opportunity with their family. A few days later, I will follow-up and ask their interest level in wanting to move forward with the opportunity. That means presenting their resume/CV to the company to be considered for an interview. If they agree to want to do that, then they must also submit to a proper presentation workup. I don't cold call people and ask for their salary history right out of the gate.

[1centaur]

Well now we are getting closer to consensus. mgm, your presentation is far better than any approach I have experienced. Most recruiters are glorified database fillers, more akin to 2-year real estate agents than subtle talent matchers. Importantly, you are suggesting the salary range before you get the salary information. That is a much more balanced conversation than the sequence we have been discussing.

[azrider]

The whole premise of this thread is backwards. The OP is asking their negotiation partner how to negotiate in their best interest. That's not what was specifically asked but that's what it amounts to.

Not exactly sure if I understand this statement completely.

My original question was actually because of a conversation I had with a recruiter a couple of weeks ago. It was a Sr Tech sales position and during the very first call it was: "Salary....would your W2 confirm that, deal size, total compensation."

I was pretty put off from the questions but played along and after divulging my salary at my previous position he deemed it a "Junior salary," and the position he was recruiting for needed more of a "Sr Salary history." I was pretty blown away at the comment, considering the position and the technology they were selling. It wasn't even very complex!!

So I called the recruiter out on it and said "so even though the technology is somewhat basic in nature compared to what I'm currently selling, the fact my salary doesn't meet what you would consider 'Senior salary' then I am out of the running."

He backtracked and said I wasn't out of the running but that it would put me at a disadvantage. He offered to intro me to the hiring manager but i said no thanks.

So I was just curious that if asking for salary requirements up front is common, and more specifically can your previous salary alone (disregard bonus, commission, etc) be a disadvantage for qualifying for a different job that might have a higher base salary, but not as lucrative bonus, commission structure.

[shovelhd]

You are correct. If a recruiter cold calls you and immediately asks for your salary history, before you know anything about the opportunity, then you have a very good reason to feel suspect. The way I present an opportunity....I will call you, tell you why I am calling and how I identified you as a potential candidate. I will provide a brief overview of the opportunity, summarizing the company and the position, and why the position is open. I will also tell you the stated compensation range for position, as it was given to to me by the company. Then I will ask the candidate, based on what I just said, do they want to explore this further? If the answer is yes, I will send them some written material about the company, division and position and instruct them to do their own research, both direct and indirect about the company. I also ask them to discuss the opportunity with their family. A few days later, I will follow-up and ask their interest level in wanting to move forward with the opportunity. That means presenting their resume/CV to the company to be considered for an interview. If they agree to want to do that, then they must also submit to a proper presentation workup. I don't cold call people and ask for their salary history right out of the gate.

I would have no problem working with you under those terms. I'd actually look forward to it.

[shovelhd]

Not exactly sure if I understand this statement completely.

My original question was actually because of a conversation I had with a recruiter a couple of weeks ago. It was a Sr Tech sales position and during the very first call it was: "Salary....would your W2 confirm that, deal size, total compensation."

I was pretty put off from the questions but played along and after divulging my salary at my previous position he deemed it a "Junior salary," and the position he was recruiting for needed more of a "Sr Salary history." I was pretty blown away at the comment, considering the position and the technology they were selling. It wasn't even very complex!!

So I called the recruiter out on it and said "so even though the technology is somewhat basic in nature compared to what I'm currently selling, the fact my salary doesn't meet what you would consider 'Senior salary' then I am out of the running."

He backtracked and said I wasn't out of the running but that it would put me at a disadvantage. He offered to intro me to the hiring manager but i said no thanks.

So I was just curious that if asking for salary requirements up front is common, and more specifically can your previous salary alone (disregard bonus, commission, etc) be a disadvantage for qualifying for a different job that might have a higher base salary, but not as lucrative bonus, commission structure.

I would have not disclosed my salary info to this recruiter. I would have said thanks for the opportunity, and hung up the phone.

[azrider]

I would have not disclosed my salary info to this recruiter. I would have said thanks for the opportunity, and hung up the phone.

yeah whole thing left bad taste.......lesson learned

[slidey]

I've only ever been a candidate, and I do get asked this Q perhaps on the first interaction with the job poster, who is usually the HR person.

I've answered it with two pieces of info:
1. What my current sal range is
2. The range of my base expected sal

I've come across co's who've said that my ask was outside their range, and I've had co's who've asked me to consider their range instead (which, was perhaps 10K lesser but with more equity), and I've had many co's tell me that my ask is very do-able.

I personally view it as a time-saver for me - since, I have little to no interest in making a move if I'm not going to be significantly better off financially+technically.

At the end of the day, what some others have said here is what I've experienced to be true as well. Get your foot subtly in the door (provide a reasonable range for expected base), do the interviews (onsite/ph, etc, etc), and then when an offer is made, there's always scope to negotiate, say with another competing offer. I've been fortunate (and, massively stupid) to be made great offers just due to the great fit (that I haven't accepted). Maybe these were exceptions - not sure, but I do see the merit of working with people you can get along with than just the smartest prat off the streets. Maybe the hiring managers also put some stress on a good fit.

[OtayBW]

You are correct. If a recruiter cold calls you and immediately asks for your salary history, before you know anything about the opportunity, then you have a very good reason to feel suspect. The way I present an opportunity....I will call you, tell you why I am calling and how I identified you as a potential candidate. I will provide a brief overview of the opportunity, summarizing the company and the position, and why the position is open. I will also tell you the stated compensation range for position, as it was given to to me by the company. Then I will ask the candidate, based on what I just said, do they want to explore this further? If the answer is yes, I will send them some written material about the company, division and position and instruct them to do their own research, both direct and indirect about the company. I also ask them to discuss the opportunity with their family. A few days later, I will follow-up and ask their interest level in wanting to move forward with the opportunity. That means presenting their resume/CV to the company to be considered for an interview. If they agree to want to do that, then they must also submit to a proper presentation workup. I don't cold call people and ask for their salary history right out of the gate.
I've been through this drill with retained recruiters many times myself. To be clear, I have no problem - when presented with a qualified opportunity - making clear whether the proposed compensation for the position is within an acceptable range. That is, however, a far cry from 'what is your current salary' which was the question originally from the OP in this thread. Acknowledgement by the candidate of an acceptable salary range is no problem (for me); avoiding disclosure of salary history or other pushy questions is in no way 'practicing deception'.