"Podium Girls"

[victoryfactory]

From TheGuardian:

Really?
In a Women's race, too!

[Russity]

Oh dear.....maybe the girls are just modelling the new Venezuelan national kit?

[oldpotatoe]

Oh dear.....maybe the girls are just modelling the new Venezuelan national kit?

oooopps.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/06/news/in-the-news-lotto-cycling-cup-organizers-apologize-for-bikini-models_374079

[dgauthier]

Hat's off to Helen Wyman for making the smartest comment of the bunch:

British cyclist Helen Wyman gave her views on the podium model issue.
"I think podium girls should be a thing of the past," she told BBC Sport.
"It's 2015. I'd much prefer to see the race sponsors on the podium, as it's their money that allow us to do what we do, and we'd prefer to see them rewarded."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/33145897

[MattTuck]

ummmm, ok. I guess that is how a manager of a strip-tease company thinks... cycling is all a big peep show.

The models were arranged by Hostessen Service No Limit, a company that also provides striptease acts. Its manager, speaking with the BBC and giving his name only as Gerrid, said, “I don’t understand what the problem is.”

“Sometimes during the race, women race with their shirts open,” he said.

[Mayhem]

Better than podium boys.

[oldpotatoe]

Better than podium boys.

Or

[mg2ride]

My remaining years are dwindling so I can only hope that in the few year I have left the PC crowd doesn't have so much influence that it becomes inappropriate to admire the beauty of woman.

If someone wants to include scantily dressed men alongside the women, I'm fine with that as well. However, since 90% of the viewing audience for all sports (figure skating doesn’t count) is straight men I don't see it happening.

[choke]

I couldn't help but laugh at the last part of Audrey Cordon's (Wiggle Honda rider) opinion.

[choke]

OrAnd...

[redir]

That is just plain silly looking.

[MattTuck]

My remaining years are dwindling so I can only hope that in the few year I have left the PC crowd doesn't have so much influence that it becomes inappropriate to admire the beauty of woman.

If someone wants to include scantily dressed men alongside the women, I'm fine with that as well. However, since 90% of the viewing audience for all sports (figure skating doesn’t count) is straight men I don't see it happening.

You do see the small children in the above picture, right? You think it is fine for a striptease company to organize the entertainment for a family event?

Sure, the swim suit issue is a cultural phenomenon and the male and female forms have long been celebrated for their beauty. But let's remember that there is a difference between appreciating an athletic performance as a sporting achievement and ogling a troupe of half-naked models, er, strippers put there to inject some cheap sexual thrill.

This kind of thing cheapens and takes away from the sporting achievements from these athletes. This idea that the "PC crowd" is stopping you from admiring a female's body is a straw-man argument. There are plenty of places to admire such bodies, but a cycling race is a place to admire the achievements of the racer's bodies, not to objectify them for your viewing pleasure.

Check out your local art museum, strip club, or hooters for the kind of 'admiring' that you're advocating.

[ptourkin]

My remaining years are dwindling so I can only hope that in the few year I have left the PC crowd doesn't have so much influence that it becomes inappropriate to admire the beauty of woman.

If someone wants to include scantily dressed men alongside the women, I'm fine with that as well. However, since 90% of the viewing audience for all sports (figure skating doesn’t count) is straight men I don't see it happening.

"PC" = "not the way it was when I grew up." Things change. Also, even for a stereotypical male sport like the NFL the percentage of female viewers is closer to 40% now and over 45% for the Super Bowl.

"PC" also equals, how it was when we only catered to the desires of straight white males. Argue that if you want, but the sports advertising and marketing models in the Mad Men era were exactly that. Much as this displeases Mayhem and others, times have changed and the old white men aren't in charge of everything any more.

Bring the hate, lock this thread, it needs to be said.

[mg2ride]

You do see the small children in the above picture, right? You think it is fine for a striptease company to organize the entertainment for a family event?

Sure, the swim suit issue is a cultural phenomenon and the male and female forms have long been celebrated for their beauty. But let's remember that there is a difference between appreciating an athletic performance as a sporting achievement and ogling a troupe of half-naked models put there to inject some cheap sexual thrill.

This kind of thing cheapens and takes away from the sporting achievements from these athletes. This idea that the "PC crowd" is stopping you from admiring a female's body is a straw-man argument. There are plenty of places to admire such bodies, but a cycling race is a place to admire the achievements of the racer's bodies, not to objectify them for your viewing pleasure.

Check out your local art museum, strip club, or hooters for the kind of 'admiring' that you're advocating.

Thankfully, you do not get to decide where I get my cheap thrills.
If sporting event organizers want to provide me with one, I'm 100% on board with it.

When it becomes a big enough issue that the athletes refuse to participate, I'm sure the sponsors will adjust. Until then I hope the PC crowd has little to no say in what or where I get my viewing pleasures from.

[MattTuck]

Thankfully, you do not get to decide where I get my cheap thrills.
If sporting event organizers want to provide me with one, I'm 100% on board with it.

When it becomes a big enough issue that the athletes refuse to participate, I'm sure the sponsors will adjust. Until then I hope the PC crowd has little to no say in what or where I get my viewing pleasures from.

Do you actually believe that? You have no problem with strippers sharing the stage with children?

[Lionel]

Come on, let's just chill. Not a big deal really.

[earlfoss]

I have no problem with any of this. If it bothers you, write them a letter or do something.

I'll echo the sentiment that I'm glad the PC fun police doesn't run the show. :butt:

I would have a problem if I ever saw Helen Wyman in a bikini.

[fuzzalow]

Think of the children....the children! :eek:

The rejoinder to the straw man is safeguarding the fate and welfare of helpless, impressionable children. Both of these tactics are equally lame.

Yes, this podium presentation was in questionable taste. It will not presage the end of civilization, which to my observation, is already on shaky grounds irrespective as the occasional vulgar prurient thrill.

[El Chaba]

In the modern world, being offended is almost as empowering as being a victim....

[CheshireCat]

europeans have an attitude towards sex/nudity that is quite far from what we have here in the states.

Still, even some of the male viewers I'm sure wouldn't mind some well dressed men on the podium to congratulate the girls.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/52/0a/2e/520a2e8741fe3f800fac1c2ad78918dd.jpg

oontz oontz oontz. :banana:

[mg2ride]

Do you actually believe that? You have no problem with strippers sharing the stage with children?

I have no problem with children being exposed to woman wearing bathing suits.

I have no problem with strippers being mothers and I have no problem with strippers inter acting with children in general.

I'm with Usher on this issue:

Shawty, I don’t mind If you dance on a pole
That don’t make you a H..
Shawty, I don’t mind when you work until three
If you’re leaving with me
Go make that money, money, money
Your money, money, money
Cause I know how it is, go and handle your biz
And get that money, money, money
Your money, money, money
You can take off your clothes
Long as you coming home, girl, I don’t mind

[victoryfactory]

Children?
The children don't notice and are not bothered by the sights that adults want
to protect them from, generally.

[Seramount]

You have no problem with strippers sharing the stage with children?

you see 'strippers'...

I see women in bikinis...just like the ones at the pool or beach.

if that traumatizes the little folk, they have a long life of hardships ahead.

find another crusade, this one's not worth the effort.

[eippo1]

Do you actually believe that? You have no problem with women in bathing suits sharing the stage with children?

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating podium girls at all and do think that it is silly and unfortunate.

However, your argument is specious (I think I'm using it correctly) in that you're upset about strippers being there. If they were actually stripping or dancing on a pole, I'd be really upset too. But I've been to beaches and seen loads of women in bathing suits sharing the beach with children. Do you have a problem with that too?

I agree that the setting is incorrect and inappropriate, but your reasoning is false.

[berserk87]

The most striking thing about the podium girl photo is their obvious lack of enthusiasm. They look like they are at a funeral.

Speaking of, I may mandate podium girls at my own funeral. And have someone spray champagne over the attendees.

[fuzzalow]

Do you actually believe that? You have no problem with strippers sharing the stage with children?

No, context is everything and here they are not strippers. They are not gyrating around the stripper pole and shaking their booty. Here they are models doing their jobs, and what they were hired to do, in somewhat inappropriate attire. But they are models and they wear what the gig requires them to wear. Nothing more.


I would have a problem if I ever saw Helen Wyman in a bikini.

C'mon man, that was uncalled for.

[MattTuck]

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating podium girls at all and do think that it is silly and unfortunate.

However, your argument is specious (I think I'm using it correctly) in that you're upset about strippers being there. If they were actually stripping or dancing on a pole, I'd be really upset too. But I've been to beaches and seen loads of women in bathing suits sharing the beach with children. Do you have a problem with that too?

I agree that the setting is incorrect and inappropriate, but your reasoning is false.

you see 'strippers'...

I see women in bikinis...just like the ones at the pool or beach.

if that traumatizes the little folk, they have a long life of hardships ahead.

find another crusade, this one's not worth the effort.

No, strippers is a factual characterization. They had more clothes on, and stripped them off. However, they are also professional strippers.

Molineaux explained he was elsewhere during the presentation and that the women were supposed to wear cycling shirts but took them off.

I don't care from a moral standpoint, I care from a brand standpoint. There is no one that comes out of this picture looking good -- and that is a failure when the picture is to celebrate an athletic achievement.

[false_Aest]

Not a big deal really.

No, it is.

Across most (all?) sports women are paid significantly less than their male colleagues. And for a really, really, really, really, really, really long time it has been suggested that they can rise (but rarely to the top) by exploiting their sexuality.

So the boys get entertainment while the women's work is devalued.

I haven't been around the work force as some of ya'll but I've seen a lot of males get ridiculously frustrated when their work isn't recognized or devalued -- bike industry, racing, construction, higher ed, commercial photographers, computer programmers, etc. The thing we do well is confront it and say ····IT I'M OUTTA HERE if things don't change. I wonder how well we'd do if this was a lot more commonplace.

Having podium girls or strippers or bikini wearing ladies does nothing for the race, the work anyone put in, or the "entertainment" we're supposedly interested in (racing a bike).

At the very best, it's a distraction.

At the worst, it makes folk like me question the mentality of the sponsors and whether or not I want to buy their product. Even if they aren't directly involved, it's guilt by association.

----

FWIW I wish underpaid/underrepresented athletes would protest but the pay disparity seems a little too high to really do this. If I'm underrepresented, underpaid and undervalued, seems pretty easy to get "punished" if I speak up.

e.g. Average NBA salary (2011-2012) $5.15million. Average WNBA salary $72,000

Minimum NBA salary (2014) $500,000. Minimum WNBA salary (2014) $48,470.

Maximum NBA salary (2014) $63million. WNBA (2014) $107,000.

[bcroslin]

Thanks again for proving the patriarchy is real. Those of you claiming the PC police are ruining your fun are in serious need of some introspection. I wonder if you'd feel the same way if you had a daughter.

[Len J]

e.g. Average NBA salary (2011-2012) $5.15million. Average WNBA salary $72,000

Minimum NBA salary (2014) $500,000. Minimum WNBA salary (2014) $48,470.

Maximum NBA salary (2014) $63million. WNBA (2014) $107,000.

Along with those stats, you should probably also post the following comparison between the leagues:

1.) Attendance
2.) TV ratings and TV revenue
3.) Team Profitability

The WNBA, even with those salary levels, have very few teams that are profitable, money, their attendance is not very good and their TV ratings suck....in other words, the product does not generate enough revenue to pay NBA salaries.

NBA players get 50% of the revenue.... WNBA get 57% of all revenues.

Edit to add....total WNBA league Revenue is under $20 million, NBA is $4.8 Billion.

[Tony T]

Across most (all?) sports women are paid significantly less than their male colleagues.

Then they should do what their male sports colleagues do when they are not satisfied with their compensation —> Strike and potentially force an early end to the season (and see what happens).

[false_Aest]

NBA players get 50% of the revenue.... WNBA get 57% of all revenues.


Totally fair point.

But that's still not enough padding or value for most of us to risk protesting to make things better.

[Burnette]

If you care from a brand standpoint, who's brand are you worried about?
Cyclings brand? Well, hate to tell you, Pro Cycling's brand is mostly known for doping and not much else and women's cycling unfortunately isn't as big as lowly American Soccer as far as eyes being on it.
Pointing out women in bathing suits in front of children as an outrage is akin to fake outrage to prove a point.
In marketing and advertising you want eyes on your product. To that end you give those with eyes what they want to see next to your product. If it's not what you want, fine, it's the majority of the buying public that they are after.
Womens Cycling: for me, what it really needs is, cycling in general for that matter, is more television time. My cable provider (so hate cable tv) offered some free channels, one being a sports channel. I got to see cycling races in Europe, it was awesome. It even had womens cycling and their races where just as fun to watch as the mens. If given enough exposure, I could get to know the names and follow individual female riders. Computer and print isn't better than TV.
If you want to show support for women's cycling, don't knock the strippers. Everybody has their station in life, don't knock them for that. You should support women's by going to the races, going to their websites and clicking on ads (there will be some with that may dismay you) and pay more to get those channels that cover them.

[mg2ride]

Totally fair point.

But that's still not enough padding or value for most of us to risk protesting to make things better.

As of 2012 the salary of a female photographer was 1/2 that of a man's.

https://fstoppers.com/video/editorial-photography-it-still-mans-world-6793

Are you willing to take a 25% pay cut to ensure equitability?

P.S. I'm can only assume that if you had a website where you recommended other people in your profession there would be a 50/50 split (or close) between the genders?

[Len J]

Totally fair point.

But that's still not enough padding or value for most of us to risk protesting to make things better.

I have no idea what your comment means.

You used a ridiculous comparison to make your point... The point is if no one watches, there is no revenue. What do you see as the solution?

WNBA has been around for 20 years or so, people have choices as to what to watch... they don't watch the WNBA in sufficient numbers to raise the revenue to justify raising the salaries. I don't think that is sexism...I see that as a free market.

I'm a sports nut, love college basketball.... I enjoy top level woman's college basketball, but there just isn't enough depth of talent to force really high level competition at a high % of the games.... the majority of the games are over 5 minutes into the game.... so I end up watching less than 10 games a year where I'll watch that many men's games in a week because they are more entertaining.

Tennis pays equal pay...why? because the products are equally compelling to watch in different ways...... Until that happens in other sports, wages won't be equal. Salaries are a result in sports, not an indication of sexism in most cases IMO.

BTW, I have 2 daughters...I think Title IX was an awesome improvement.

[bcroslin]

This isn't about brands, sports and "oh noes the children!" This is about not objectifying other human beings and not treating others as a means to an end. It's also not about giving away part of your income to prop up someone else's. It's about creating a society that is fair and equitable and respectful of others contributions. I'm not a religious guy but that whole do unto others things has always resonated with me. Doesn't it with you?

But just keep digging your heels in and claiming this is about libruls killing your fun. It helps the rest of us identify who the problem is.

[Tony T]

NBA players get 50% of the revenue....
WNBA get 57% of all revenues.

Didn't know that. Somehow that doesn't seem "fair" ;)

[Tony T]

Bill Burr - The reason why men make more $/hr: https://youtu.be/XlR6CdJtRWM

[mg2ride]

This isn't about brands, sports and "oh noes the children!" This is about giving lip service to issues so that I feel better about myself?

Fixed it for you!

How do you spend your money or your time in a way to help?

[CunegoFan]

europeans have an attitude towards sex/nudity that is quite far from what we have here in the states.

The funny thing about this is being driven by small group of female Twitterati in the UK and America complaining about what happens in another country with a different culture. They threw a hissy fit over the advertising used for E3. This included calling for Brian Cookson to enact UCI rules to control adverstising in cycling. Now they are calling for Cookson to make rules about podium ceremonies. Maybe they should focus their concerns on their own countries.

[professerr]

Podium models are lame at best, and the fact that these were from a stripper sponsor make perfect sense. On the nameless internet, apparently no one has a mother/daughter/wife and even creepers find their voice.

[MattTuck]

Other than the manager of the striptease company, is there any sponsor or participant saying that this isn't a problem?

Is it possible that the event sponsor and organizer's apologies were just caving under pressure from the P.C. left? Sure, but it is more likely that they're apologizing because it was a tasteless move that lacked class and disrespected the racers.

[Hawker]

The most striking thing about the podium girl photo is their obvious lack of enthusiasm. They look like they are at a funeral.

Speaking of, I may mandate podium girls at my own funeral. And have someone spray champagne over the attendees.

I was really not going to get involved in this thread, but I'm putting my foot down (unclipped first). I'm just really against bikini girls at funerals.

[donevwil]

I was really not going to get involved in this thread, but I'm putting my foot down (unclipped first). I'm just really against bikini girls at funerals.

I once went to a nudist funeral, bikinis (for all) would have been very welcome.

[bcroslin]

Fixed it for you!

How do you spend your money or your time in a way to help?

I spend my time and money working on causes that make a difference in my little corner of the world. I've raised an amazing daughter who I've taught not to be disheartened by sexist jerks and I've done my best to educate her on strategies to turn their worldview around on them. What I've done isn't important to the larger conversation of patriarchy. I will not accommodate misogynists and you have proven yourself to be unapologetic about your backwards views in several threads on PL. I'm not sure why you keep digging your heels in. Doesn't it get tiring?

[mg2ride]

....What I've done isn't important to the larger conversation of patriarchy....

Got it.

What you do doesn't matter but you are quick to judge what I do.

I will file your opinions accordingly.

[choke]

The funny thing about this is being driven by small group of female Twitterati in the UK and America complaining about what happens in another country with a different culture. They threw a hissy fit over the advertising used for E3. This included calling for Brian Cookson to enact UCI rules to control adverstising in cycling. Now they are calling for Cookson to make rules about podium ceremonies. Maybe they should focus their concerns on their own countries.Actually, Dutch pro cyclist Marijn de Vries is who first brought it to attention and made an issue of it.

I follow women's cycling and I've yet to see any other pro endorse the bikini-clad women while many have condemned their presence. IMO if the participants are offended then that really says it all.

[staggerwing]

I'm all for the celebration of the human form, male or female, in all its glory.

However, in this case, it adds nothing to crowning the achievements of 3 riders that gave it their all, and more likely, materially distracts focus from their celebration.

Gilding should be complimentary, and this display is not.

[Dead Man]

Isn't it about who is watching, not who is on the podium? Dudes wanna see hawtties.

[CunegoFan]

I was really not going to get involved in this thread, but I'm putting my foot down (unclipped first). I'm just really against bikini girls at funerals.

You might want to avoid Taiwan but China has your back.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/04/24/china-to-citizens-stop-hiring-strippers-for-funerals/

[rzthomas]

I'm in strong favor of getting rid of the podium girl/guy tradition entirely. It's stupid and sexist.

I guess that's a PC viewpoint, but I can't find any reason to keep the tradition.

[rugbysecondrow]

"PC" = "not the way it was when I grew up." Things change. Also, even for a stereotypical male sport like the NFL the percentage of female viewers is closer to 40% now and over 45% for the Super Bowl.

"PC" also equals, how it was when we only catered to the desires of straight white males. Argue that if you want, but the sports advertising and marketing models in the Mad Men era were exactly that. Much as this displeases Mayhem and others, times have changed and the old white men aren't in charge of everything any more.

Bring the hate, lock this thread, it needs to be said.

You mention "white" twice in here, seems like a cheap shot as race has nothing to do with this.

Insert another ethnicity (black, asian, hispanic) in there and there would be a different term for what you wrote.

[Black Dog]

I spend my time and money working on causes that make a difference in my little corner of the world. I've raised an amazing daughter who I've taught not to be disheartened by sexist jerks and I've done my best to educate her on strategies to turn their worldview around on them. What I've done isn't important to the larger conversation of patriarchy. I will not accommodate misogynists and you have proven yourself to be unapologetic about your backwards views in several threads on PL. I'm not sure why you keep digging your heels in. Doesn't it get tiring?

+1 for everything you have said.

[Black Dog]

Isn't it about who is watching, not who is on the podium? Dudes wanna see hawtties.

Then why watch a bike race? Porn is free and abundant on the web. :rolleyes:

[Black Dog]

You mention "white" twice in here, seems like a cheap shot as race has nothing to do with this.

Insert another ethnicity (black, asian, hispanic) in there and there would be a different term for what you wrote.

He mentioned white males specifically because it has been white males that have been in charge of everything in the western world for a long time. They have enjoyed privilege over women and people of any other skin colour. This is still the case but it is slowly changing and much the the chagrin of white males, especially older white males who do not like their entitlements questioned.

[rugbysecondrow]

On the list of things I am concerned about, podium girls is near the bottom of the list.

Sports are entertainment, and ladies in bikinis certainly add to the entertainment value.

I grew up with a strong, educated, professional mother. My wife is an engineer with a masters and a great job (which provides more $$ than me). My daughters are being raised to be strong, independent women. None of this has anything to do with wearing a bikini or being a model on a podium. Women have the ability to do anything they want, and this is what these women decided to do, and they got paid.

[rugbysecondrow]

He mentioned white males specifically because it has been white males that have been in charge of everything in the western world for a long time. They have enjoyed privilege over women and people of any other skin colour. This is still the case but it is slowly changing and much the the chagrin of white males, especially older white males who do not like their entitlements questioned.

That has nothing to do with ladies in bikinis, does it? I mean, men in general seem to appreciate them, with race not a factor.

So, again, the "white" references is either off point or gratuitous. Either way, it is without merit in this conversation.

I suppose, me being a white male, puts be in the position of both accepting privilege as well as accepting blame. To which I must say, "eh, so what?"

[Dead Man]

We should leave social theory out of Paceline.

All of these arguments can be ended with these two facts:

World world IS changing - social progress IS happening.
There are people who will NEVER accept it. But they're dying.

Can we get back to being fellow cycling enthusiasts, now?

[Louis]

If anyone were interested in trying to change things in the TDF I think there's a simple solution: Podium children dressed in the local traditional garb.

A few 8-12 year olds (boys and girls, kids of the mayor, grand-kids of the the LBS guy, whoever) each holding a bouquet of flowers which they hand to a jersey wearer or stage winner.

A local dignitary (mayor's probably simplest) to help put the jerseys on, and you're done. It would be cute, photo-friendly and no portraying of women as adornments, there just to look pretty and kiss the winners.

[mg2ride]

World world IS changing - social progress IS happening.
There are people who will NEVER accept it. But they're dying.



True that. The OP indicates that one of those changes is that Podium girls will wear less clothing than before!:banana::banana:

That, ATMO, is a good thing!

[mg2ride]

If anyone were interested in trying to change things in the TDF I think there's a simple solution: Podium children dressed in the local traditional garb.

A few 8-12 year olds (boys and girls, kids of the mayor, grand-kids of the the LBS guy, whoever) each holding a bouquet of flowers which they hand to a jersey wearer or stage winner.

A local dignitary (mayor's probably simplest) to help put the jerseys on, and you're done. It would be cute, photo-friendly and no portraying of women as adornments, there just to look pretty and kiss the winners.

So it's OK to parade children around as adornments? I thought that is who we were trying to protect?

This really is a complicated issue.

I find the whole concept of a podium as offensive. I suspect that the woman that finished in 4th to last place work just as hard as the other 3. Why should only 3 of them get the opportunity to have their accomplishment recognized. They should all get paid the same as well.

[firerescuefin]

After 18 years....and heavy subsidization (from the NBA), 6 teams in the WNBA are profitable...not highly profitable...just not hemorrhaging money. So tell me, how many WNBA games have you watched or attended this year? Are you going to mandate where sponsors and fans are going to spend their marketing and entertainment dollars to subsidize higher salaries for the women....in the name of equality? Good luck with that. As the appetite grows for the WNBA, so will the salaries...as it should be.

I find the WNBA unwatchable compared to the men's game.....yet I can't turn off the women's World Cup. Love watching the Premiership, La Liga, Champions League....can't stomach MLS. Has nothing to do with gender.


Added: NBA players collectively bargain 51% of "defined revenues" for the current contract. The WNBA players have a union. They negotiate the contract for their members. No individuals are being "exploited". If they do not feel that they are being fairly compensated for playing basketball, they can choose to pursue another profession, or play internationally, where salaries tend to be higher for Women's basketball because of a higher demand.



----

FWIW I wish underpaid/underrepresented athletes would protest but the pay disparity seems a little too high to really do this. If I'm underrepresented, underpaid and undervalued, seems pretty easy to get "punished" if I speak up.

e.g. Average NBA salary (2011-2012) $5.15million. Average WNBA salary $72,000

Minimum NBA salary (2014) $500,000. Minimum WNBA salary (2014) $48,470.

Maximum NBA salary (2014) $63million. WNBA (2014) $107,000.

[Louis]

So it's OK to parade children around as adornments? I thought that is who we were trying to protect?

Yes.

They've been accused of lots of things, but last I heard none of the top guys in the peleton (nor the domestiques) are pedophiles, so I think the kids will be safe.

[earlfoss]

If anyone were interested in trying to change things in the TDF I think there's a simple solution: Podium children dressed in the local traditional garb.

A few 8-12 year olds (boys and girls, kids of the mayor, grand-kids of the the LBS guy, whoever) each holding a bouquet of flowers which they hand to a jersey wearer or stage winner.

A local dignitary (mayor's probably simplest) to help put the jerseys on, and you're done. It would be cute, photo-friendly and no portraying of women as adornments, there just to look pretty and kiss the winners.

This got a great chuckle out of me. The sport becomes bland, unflavored oatmeal. This is a sport and parading kids and mayors out on the stage is BORING! LOL

There was a comment once about the poetic idea of a cyclist who rides his heart out for a kiss from a beautiful woman. I can get behind that.

[gdw]

A friend ran the Thelma and Loiuse Half Marathon a couple weekends ago in Moab. The race bars men from competing and features topless firemen and volunteers dressed as Brad Pitt along the route.:eek: Is that PC?

[rugbysecondrow]

A friend ran the Thelma and Loiuse Half Marathon a couple weekends ago in Moab. The race bars men from competing and features topless firemen and volunteers dressed as Brad Pitt along the route.:eek: Is that PC?

I think I just got offended a little bit. My feeling got hurt.:help:

[MattTuck]

This got a great chuckle out of me. The sport becomes bland, unflavored oatmeal. This is a sport and parading kids and mayors out on the stage is BORING! LOL

There was a comment once about the poetic idea of a cyclist who rides his heart out for a kiss from a beautiful woman. I can get behind that.

I don't have as much of a problem with classy podium girls as I do with stripper models in bikinis... that said, this is professional sport. Why not give the winner the option of collecting his salary/prize money and collecting a kiss from a girl... we'll quickly see his true motivation for riding.

Cippo is maybe the only one who would give up his winnings.

[gdw]

Mine were as well until I realized the event was put on by sexist white women who will never change their views.....fortunately they are dying.:banana:

[mg2ride]

Well maybe it is a matter of too many white guys.

Based on my very scientific research (Wiki) the entire concept of Podium Girls was started at the TDF.

I did not know that and now have 2 things to thank the French for!

[earlfoss]

I like the idea of getting the prize money in addition to bikini models. If we just stick with that I think all will be good. Uncomplicated and easy and I don't see that changing any time soon anyway.

People are so hung up on those ladies being strippers for some reason. They weren't stripping at the race and if what they do for their night jobs hadn't been made available, all those prudes complaining wouldn't be fantasizing a dirty scene in their heads where they are twirling on poles and dancing raunchy for dollar bills.

[mg2ride]

I like the idea of getting the prize money in addition to bikini models. If we just stick with that I think all will be good. Uncomplicated and easy and I don't see that changing any time soon anyway.

People are so hung up on those ladies being strippers for some reason. They weren't stripping at the race and if what they do for their night jobs hadn't been made available, all those prudes complaining wouldn't be fantasizing some dirty scene in their heads where they are twirling on poles and dancing raunchy for dollar bills.

Worse than that is that people are assuming that these girls are strippers. Strippers are only one of the entertainment services provided by this company. In my experience many, many, many of our mothers/daughters/wives would be willing (if not honored) to be paid to stand around in a bathing suit.

ATMO, that does not make them sex workers.

[professerr]

Well maybe it is a matter of too many white guys.

Based on my very scientific research (Wiki) the entire concept of Podium Girls was started at the TDF.

I did not know that and now have 2 things to thank the French for!

Wait what?? I just noticed your epithet is “Whatever your plight, blame it on too many white guys.”

That’s how you self-identify? On a bike forum?

Signing off then.

[Seramount]

Worse than that is that people are assuming that these girls are strippers. Strippers are only one of the entertainment services provided by this company. In my experience many, many, many of our mothers/daughters/wives would be willing (if not honored) to be paid to stand around in a bathing suit.

+1

the puritanical uptightness is strong in this thread...

[plattyjo]

I would have a problem if I ever saw Helen Wyman in a bikini.

Wow, just wow.

But it was great to hear from the cyclists in here who support women's cycling and don't stoop to making cheap caveman jokes.

[Louis]

Easy enough for us guys to say "let's keep the Hooters girls for entertainment - I love it" as we leer at the well-endowed waitresses.

Let's face it, it's demeaning, degrading and the product of centuries of men demanding what they want (sex) from women.

[earlfoss]

I was trolling :banana:

[Dead Man]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/fc/aa/8b/fcaa8b238db98ef322eb9d385ed17867.jpg

[Black Dog]

That has nothing to do with ladies in bikinis, does it? I mean, men in general seem to appreciate them, with race not a factor.

So, again, the "white" references is either off point or gratuitous. Either way, it is without merit in this conversation.

I suppose, me being a white male, puts be in the position of both accepting privilege as well as accepting blame. To which I must say, "eh, so what?"

I was just responding to the point that PC is most threatening to white males in particular. I am well aware that PC is as often used to censor and repress open debate as much as it is used to promote equity and inclusiveness. In this case race is a factor, in the case of the podium girls not so much at all.

[yngpunk]

http://fortune.com/2015/03/30/tech-conference-bans-scantily-clad-booth-babes/

[plattyjo]

I was trolling :banana:

http://media.giphy.com/media/CIYsQ5hZlYT2o/giphy.gif

[Black Dog]

Worse than that is that people are assuming that these girls are strippers. Strippers are only one of the entertainment services provided by this company. In my experience many, many, many of our mothers/daughters/wives would be willing (if not honored) to be paid to stand around in a bathing suit.

ATMO, that does not make them sex workers.

Yea, just asked my wife and a few of her friends if they would be honoured to get paid to stand around in their bathing suits as eye candy. It was so quiet I could here the crickets chirping. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. :rolleyes:

[makoti]

(never mind. it's been done)

[Louis]

http://fortune.com/2015/03/30/tech-conference-bans-scantily-clad-booth-babes/

The only question is when it will happen to car shows?

http://cache.trustedpartner.com/images/library/PalmBeachIllustrated2010/News%20%26%20Blogs/Wheel/2013/2013%20Geneva%20Auto%20Show/Alfa-Romeo---4C---83rd-International-Motor-Show-Geneva.jpg

[Tony]

Nice!!

[mg2ride]

Yea, just asked my wife and a few of her friends if they would be honoured to get paid to stand around in their bathing suits as eye candy. It was so quiet I could here the crickets chirping. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. :rolleyes:

Well that settles it then. Since they don't want to do it we shouldn't let anyone do it.

[Mayhem]

World world IS changing - social progress IS happening.

Social change is happening. Progress is a matter of opinion.

[Dead Man]

Social change is happening. Progress is a matter of opinion.

See Fact No. 2

[Louis]

Well that settles it then. Since they don't want to do it we shouldn't let anyone do it.

Victimless crime and all of that... Not quite sure I ever bought that argument.

[Mayhem]

See Fact No. 2

No. But I'll gladly look at this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8555706.ece/alternates/w620/peter-sagan.jpg

https://sweatngears.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/toyotaunitedcg_01.jpg

https://i1.wp.com/sports.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/gallery/podium-girls/cycling-podium-girls-3.jpg

[victoryfactory]

I have nothing against the "real" podium girl thing. They are doing a job.
They direct traffic, hand out awards and wrangle the oxygen starved
winners on and off the podium. The kiss is a harmless if unnessesary
tradition. The reason I originally posted that photo is because those women in
the bikinis were so ludicrously out of place that I found it an outrageous and clueless parody of the standard podium girl routine.

Went for a short ride after work today and I rode right through a big puddle of hot tar. Took me two hours to clean the bike. Talk about instant Kharma!
I've been tarred and feathered!

VF

[Johnnyg]

Do you actually believe that? You have no problem with strippers sharing the stage with children?
Come on kids go to the beach and see such things. What's the big deal.

[1centaur]

It's funny how much the PC movement shares with some old white guys. In the 1960s, some old white guys said, "America, love it or leave it." Intolerant and absolutist. Highly offensive to people who had more subtle ways of looking at things. Now the PC movement says you must believe certain things completely or you will be dismissed as an old white guy and shouted down in certain circles. Very offensive to people who have more subtle ways of looking at things.

Podium girls as a topic deserves some nuanced thought on both sides. If women were equal and considered themselves so, then their appearance on a podium would be as unremarkable as men doing the job. If men were on the podium, even wearing sexy clothes, those guys would not consider themselves put upon nor would the viewing public. But the history of treating women as sexual objects DOES exist, and does not for men. There is continuity from a regrettable past to a much improved present. Moreover, men can see beautiful women in far more venues than they could many years ago. So there is no benefit to the sponsors of having those women there and there is a negative of perpetuating stereotypes. Nobody would much miss them if they were gone, so if I were running a race they would be gone.

But in a nuanced discussion, rather than an intolerant and absolutist one, an interesting question is, "when is it OK, if ever, to use the beauty of a woman to make more money?" In a car show, I have no doubt a beautiful woman can bring men over to see a car. Acceptable? In a Hollywood movie or a TV show, a beautiful woman can get men to watch. OK? Must we deny basic and widespread and natural attraction in service of some paranoia over utter equality? Must the ratio of attractive men and women in every setting equal the percentage of men and women in society? Or can we just accept the attractions of beauty while ASSUMING equality?

[goonster]

If anyone were interested in trying to change things in the TDF I think there's a simple solution: Podium children dressed in the local traditional garb.
That's not a bad idea.

Soccer does something like this at the team introductions. Totally cute, entirely noncontroversial, everybody loves kids.

http://www.nufc.co.uk/javaImages/e2/85/0,,10278~10061282,00.jpg

[gemship]

The most striking thing about the podium girl photo is their obvious lack of enthusiasm. They look like they are at a funeral.

Speaking of, I may mandate podium girls at my own funeral. And have someone spray champagne over the attendees.

Well they were bored stiff and had a job to do darn it! :banana::bike::banana:

[gemship]

The only question is when it will happen to car shows?

http://cache.trustedpartner.com/images/library/PalmBeachIllustrated2010/News%20%26%20Blogs/Wheel/2013/2013%20Geneva%20Auto%20Show/Alfa-Romeo---4C---83rd-International-Motor-Show-Geneva.jpg

Very good question...sleek cars that ooze style and sexy women kinda go hand in hand. Like that perfectly ripe home grown tomato and mayo sandwich with the bread of your choice.

[gemship]

It's funny how much the PC movement shares with some old white guys. In the 1960s, some old white guys said, "America, love it or leave it." Intolerant and absolutist. Highly offensive to people who had more subtle ways of looking at things. Now the PC movement says you must believe certain things completely or you will be dismissed as an old white guy and shouted down in certain circles. Very offensive to people who have more subtle ways of looking at things.

Podium girls as a topic deserves some nuanced thought on both sides. If women were equal and considered themselves so, then their appearance on a podium would be as unremarkable as men doing the job. If men were on the podium, even wearing sexy clothes, those guys would not consider themselves put upon nor would the viewing public. But the history of treating women as sexual objects DOES exist, and does not for men. There is continuity from a regrettable past to a much improved present. Moreover, men can see beautiful women in far more venues than they could many years ago. So there is no benefit to the sponsors of having those women there and there is a negative of perpetuating stereotypes. Nobody would much miss them if they were gone, so if I were running a race they would be gone.

But in a nuanced discussion, rather than an intolerant and absolutist one, an interesting question is, "when is it OK, if ever, to use the beauty of a woman to make more money?" In a car show, I have no doubt a beautiful woman can bring men over to see a car. Acceptable? In a Hollywood movie or a TV show, a beautiful woman can get men to watch. OK? Must we deny basic and widespread and natural attraction in service of some paranoia over utter equality? Must the ratio of attractive men and women in every setting equal the percentage of men and women in society? Or can we just accept the attractions of beauty while ASSUMING equality?

what about women, don't they like to watch too? Caitlyn are you listening to all this?

[goonster]

There was a comment once about the poetic idea of a cyclist who rides his heart out for a kiss from a beautiful woman.

1. Poetry != Reality
2. Newsflash: podium kisses are not real kisses.
3. If that mythical cyclist gets the kiss he rode for (and I hope he does), we don't need to see it.
4. Whatever kisses Cipo (speculatively) rode for definitely didn't happen on the podium.

[Mayhem]

Kids dressed in traditional garb on a cycling podium. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing. Stop the madness. Just... stop. If podium girls offend you go watch underwater ballet or something.

[goonster]

But in a nuanced discussion, rather than an intolerant and absolutist one, an interesting question is, "when is it OK, if ever, to use the beauty of a woman to make more money?"
In a nuanced discussion, we can decide on a case by case basis. Different standards and demographics in other venues don't have to paralyze judgement in a particular situation.

A lot of people took one look at that picture and found the situation inappropriate to a really blatantly obvious degree. The slice of the population that feels this way is growing, and hopefully we will reach a tipping point soon where the "eye candy" podium girls are a thing of the past.

[goonster]

Kids dressed in traditional garb on a cycling podium. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing.
I decide what makes me a man, and ogling podium girls is not a big part of it . . .

[gemship]

Come on kids go to the beach and see such things. What's the big deal.

Once about four years ago I went to the beach close to home and saw the most awesome yet disturbing site. Three beautiful girls topless! It was awesome, sat near them and couldn't help but stare and finally talked to them. After awhile they got mildly annoyed. The conversation was innocent enough but they knew why I was talking to them. Thing is this is a family beach not a nude beach. I eventually left albeit I wasn't much better than they were as I was flaunting a cold beer in public. However bringing brewskis is a whole more commonplace but still I guess I was in the wrong on that note. I don't know what my point here is because that was such an extreme, I do get what you are saying though. Seriously I gave up on flirting with women at the beach. I find they may be out in public with little clothing on but a majority of them just want to be unnoticed and left in peace to bake in the hot sun. In that regard American culture really is disturbing.

[Mayhem]

I decide what makes me a man, and ogling podium girls is not a big part of it . . .

No one said you had to ogle. If looking at pretty girls offends you then don't watch it. I ogle at them. Not because it makes me a man but because I am a man you likes looking at pretty girls. If it offends someone I couldn't care less. I don't live my life worried about what offends sensitive people. Kids dressed in traditional garb? I mean.... COME ON MAN. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing.

[Louis]

Kids dressed in traditional garb? I mean.... COME ON MAN. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing.

I personally would not feel my masculinity threatened by having little kids on the podium instead of podium women. YMMV.

[jh_on_the_cape]

I would have a problem if I ever saw Helen Wyman in a bikini.

caption contest?

https://sweatngears.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/sweatngears_tourseries_johnson-health-tech-series-winner-helen-wyman.jpg

[Dead Man]

Thats probably the best/least ugly picture I've ever seen of her

[bironi]

Come on, we can beat the post count of Deflate Gate. You go boys.

[Louis]

Come on, we can beat the post count of Deflate Gate. You go boys.

No way in the world will that happen - we've become much too feminized and won't be able to keep it up that long.

[DRietz]

I just want to say, from the perspective of probably one of the youngest people on this message board, that I found this discussion to be exactly what I expected from you all - laughable.

A bunch of aging, middle to upper class men talking on the internet with a sense of entitlement about what is or isn't okay regarding the portrayal of women, about the appearances of certain women, and about the assumptions they make of the women they know or women in general. Also, the profound inability, even among grown adults to actually differentiate the use of "woman" and "women."

That's privilege. That's sexism. That's downright, straight up misogyny. (And the last part, that's sad for other reasons)

You don't see it because it's so deeply ingrained in you and in this culture. The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming, the same culture that prioritizes the free market more than it does education... It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Also, just because it struck a huge nerve with me - your opinion of Helen Wyman's appearance doesn't really matter, because you probably don't have a freaking leg to stand on (yeah, I'm implying you're not all that and a bag of chips, even though I don't know you, have never met you, and now don't ever wish to. Seems ignorant, huh?). And, even if somebody in this ass-backwards world does find you attractive, Helen can still ride your wheels off any day of the week; since this is a cycling forum, that's all that should matter.

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.

[Jaq]

I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Good luck with that.

[hockeybike]

Eh, this thread seems like a yelp post. Lots of people with intense views on either side commenting, and the vast majority of people passively watching saying 'meh. i disagree with someone on the internet. I'm over caring.'

Which is kind of funny. All the usual suspects taking their positions, including the silents.

Forum is probably biased in one direction as far as views on podium gals, and I'm guessing it's in the no direction. Probably enough people agreeing with the way the 'no' was said that there's not a ton left to say. Conversely, for the outnumbered 'yes' group, there's probably a higher portion chiming in. Net result is probably an over-representation of the under-resepresnted group.

My only thought is, boobs sell to boobs on the boob tube. Desensitized yet?

Bananadance! :banana:

[CunegoFan]

I just want to say, from the perspective of probably one of the youngest people on this message board, that I found this discussion to be exactly what I expected from you all - laughable.

A bunch of aging, middle to upper class men talking on the internet with a sense of entitlement about what is or isn't okay regarding the portrayal of women, about the appearances of certain women, and about the assumptions they make of the women they know or women in general. Also, the profound inability, even among grown adults to actually differentiate the use of "woman" and "women."

That's privilege. That's sexism. That's downright, straight up misogyny. (And the last part, that's sad for other reasons)

You don't see it because it's so deeply ingrained in you and in this culture. The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming, the same culture that prioritizes the free market more than it does education... It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Also, just because it struck a huge nerve with me - your opinion of Helen Wyman's appearance doesn't really matter, because you probably don't have a freaking leg to stand on (yeah, I'm implying you're not all that and a bag of chips, even though I don't know you, have never met you, and now don't ever wish to. Seems ignorant, huh?). And, even if somebody in this ass-backwards world does find you attractive, Helen can still ride your wheels off any day of the week; since this is a cycling forum, that's all that should matter.

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.


https://drawception.com/pub/panels/2012/11-2/gca2EB7bLe-12.png

[simonov]

No one said you had to ogle. If looking at pretty girls offends you then don't watch it. I ogle at them. Not because it makes me a man but because I am a man you likes looking at pretty girls. If it offends someone I couldn't care less. I don't live my life worried about what offends sensitive people. Kids dressed in traditional garb? I mean.... COME ON MAN. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing.

Can you explain how no longer wanting to objectify women equates to emasculation? Or even what the symptoms of this emasculation are? Or why it's so disturbing to you?

[Black Dog]

I just want to say, from the perspective of probably one of the youngest people on this message board, that I found this discussion to be exactly what I expected from you all - laughable.

A bunch of aging, middle to upper class men talking on the internet with a sense of entitlement about what is or isn't okay regarding the portrayal of women, about the appearances of certain women, and about the assumptions they make of the women they know or women in general. Also, the profound inability, even among grown adults to actually differentiate the use of "woman" and "women."

That's privilege. That's sexism. That's downright, straight up misogyny. (And the last part, that's sad for other reasons)

You don't see it because it's so deeply ingrained in you and in this culture. The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming, the same culture that prioritizes the free market more than it does education... It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Also, just because it struck a huge nerve with me - your opinion of Helen Wyman's appearance doesn't really matter, because you probably don't have a freaking leg to stand on (yeah, I'm implying you're not all that and a bag of chips, even though I don't know you, have never met you, and now don't ever wish to. Seems ignorant, huh?). And, even if somebody in this ass-backwards world does find you attractive, Helen can still ride your wheels off any day of the week; since this is a cycling forum, that's all that should matter.

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.

Your paint brush is very broad. I understand your rage and agree with much of it. Please know that the generalized ad-hominems mask your point. This is the internet, this is a forum about a sport that is practicised by the demographic that you mentioned. There will be a lot of locker room mentality. Not everyone here is like that. Not everyone here supports that. Not everyone here stands by and says nothing when it rears it head.

[Mayhem]

Can you explain how no longer wanting to objectify women equates to emasculation? Or even what the symptoms of this emasculation are? Or why it's so disturbing to you?

I'm not sure how enjoying looking at beautiful women who seem to be happy up on the podium is degrading them. And most of the girls up there are actually pretty classy, I don't see too many in thongs and daisy dukes. Science will never unlock the mysteries of the liberal mind. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing.

[Mayhem]

The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming

I thought the new marketing term was called climate change after the climategate debacle. In the 70's the new ice age was supposed to kill a billion people, according to Obama's former climate czar. It's all so confusing. I'm glad we have people who can properly lecture us on it, otherwise the human race will be soon wiped out.

[oldpotatoe]

I just want to say, from the perspective of probably one of the youngest people on this message board, that I found this discussion to be exactly what I expected from you all - laughable.

A bunch of aging, middle to upper class men talking on the internet with a sense of entitlement about what is or isn't okay regarding the portrayal of women, about the appearances of certain women, and about the assumptions they make of the women they know or women in general. Also, the profound inability, even among grown adults to actually differentiate the use of "woman" and "women."

That's privilege. That's sexism. That's downright, straight up misogyny. (And the last part, that's sad for other reasons)

You don't see it because it's so deeply ingrained in you and in this culture. The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming, the same culture that prioritizes the free market more than it does education... It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Also, just because it struck a huge nerve with me - your opinion of Helen Wyman's appearance doesn't really matter, because you probably don't have a freaking leg to stand on (yeah, I'm implying you're not all that and a bag of chips, even though I don't know you, have never met you, and now don't ever wish to. Seems ignorant, huh?). And, even if somebody in this ass-backwards world does find you attractive, Helen can still ride your wheels off any day of the week; since this is a cycling forum, that's all that should matter.

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.

Wow, big paint brush there..the more things change, the more they stay the same..generational grievances, those old farts, get out of the way....sounds like the 60s all over again. At least the 'younger' generation is getting off their 'me generation' collective lazy butts and actually GAS. At least this gent seems to.

We will, and you can give it your best shot-good luck.

Also you may want to google 'young republican platforms', to see some in that 'young culture/generation' adhere to some of the same stuff as the 'older' culture.

[makoti]

It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.


Relax, you'l screw it up in a new & exciting way. You're as big an idiot as the rest of us.

[fuzzalow]

It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

It is commendable that you want to be part of a solution in going forwards. It is a gross assumption that this same desire for participation is found in your generation's actions and goals to be to the same level as yours. Voting pattern is but one barometer in gauging participation in action and not just words - 41% percent won't do it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Voter_Turnout_by_Sex_and_Age,_2008_US_Presidential _Election.png

Many of the biases that you find objectionable in this thread are ingrained and intractable across all generations, including yours. Ignorance is not anathema to your generation anymore than it is anathema to mine. Do not underestimate that unfortunate diversity in knowing what your generation is up against. And it will take much more than simply your generation's involvement to fix it - nothing big can be done alone. Good luck.

[Tony T]

In the 70's the new ice age was supposed to kill a billion people.

Yep, there was also the hole in the ozone layer that "we" created that was going kill us, and lets not forget that we were supposed to run out of food and land due to overpopulation.

[charliedid]

From TheGuardian:

Really?
In a Women's race, too!

Good lord, bike racing is at times one of the dumbest things ever.

[oldpotatoe]

Yep, there was also the hole in the ozone layer that "we" created that was going kill us, and lets not forget that we were supposed to run out of food and land due to overpopulation.

About 10 billion when DReitz is about 55 years old(guessing)...gonna be 'interesting'...

[cfox]

Many of the biases that you find objectionable in this thread are ingrained and intractable across all generations, including yours. Ignorance is not anathema to your generation anymore than it is anathema to mine. Do not underestimate that unfortunate diversity in knowing what your generation is up against. And it will take much more than simply your generation's involvement to fix it - nothing big can be done alone. Good luck.

Correct. In plainer words, spring break at Daytona this year was not a climate change conference.

[gdw]

Strippers, political correctness, women's basketball, Helen Wyman, global warming, the generation gap..... bet we get at least 4 more pages out of this thread.

[yngpunk]

Strippers, political correctness, women's basketball, Helen Wyman, global warming, the generation gap..... bet we get at least 4 more pages out of this thread.

You need to add some more "controversy" to get at least 4 more pages...let me help you out:

Do those bikini clad women standing near the podium have health insurance and are they considered contractors or employees of the firm who hired them.

[Raffy]

I'm glad we have people who can properly lecture us on it, otherwise the human race will be soon wiped out.

One of the world of today's problems is there's too many people who are too busy lecturing others when they should be looking at their own selves and minding their own damn business. And conveniently, these people hide behind the guise of "I'm trying to make a difference in this world". [/eyeroll]

Society has a serious addiction to getting appalled and going apes&!t about every little thing and everything becomes such a big deal nowadays. Maybe I should have grown up in the 60s......

[firerescuefin]

Correct. In plainer words, spring break at Daytona this year was not a climate change conference.

:)

[Black Dog]

Yep, there was also the hole in the ozone layer that "we" created that was going kill us, and lets not forget that we were supposed to run out of food and land due to overpopulation.

Yep, the tin foils hats are on tight today. There is an ozone hole and we banned CFC's and the hole is getting smaller (see how doing something actually fixes a problem). We are running out of land and food to feed the people, this problem is real and getting worse. The population of earth doubles every 40 years. Do the math.

[Black Dog]

I'm not sure how enjoying looking at beautiful women who seem to be happy up on the podium is degrading them. And most of the girls up there are actually pretty classy, I don't see too many in thongs and daisy dukes. Science will never unlock the mysteries of the liberal mind. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing.

How exactly is the modern man being emasculated? Seriously, answer my question please.

No one is trying to take these of the back of your truck:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Truck_Nuts.jpg/220px-Truck_Nuts.jpg

or these of the back of your bike:

http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/bike-balls-2.jpg

[earlfoss]

Just look at what they did to the Bounty paper towel man. A pillar of 70's manness turned metrosexual. Softened edges, non-threatening, and he cries on demand.

[rugbysecondrow]

It is a pretty good life when you can allow yourself to be offended by some female models...in Europe...and then tie the issue white male privilege with a few key strokes. Viola! I mean, that is really the crux of it right, models? People are offended by female models. Sorry, but that is not a fight you will win, nor is it one I want you to win. I am surrounded by average looking people everyday at the grocery store, on the train, at work, but these Models are part of creating an image, a fantasy. It is not about real life, nor should it be.

To take it further, models are everywhere in society and i am not just talking about female models, in all shapes and sizes. They are used to sell goods, magazines, attract attention, make interesting an otherwise uninteresting podium (They caused us to pay attention, which means we fell for it). This also means they will not go away. Sex sells. Image sells. It sells to men and women, differently, but equally. The Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue is huge, but so is People Magazines Sexiest Man alive.

Victimless crime and all of that... Not quite sure I ever bought that argument.

Comments like these are amusing.

I enjoy the opinions of others, however much I disagree with their Pollyanna-ish views sometimes. It seems that people take offense too easily these days, and they feign indignation at the drop of a hat. I am not saying ignore really issues (equal rights, fair pay, etc etc) but we are talking about models...in Europe...it is time to stop pretending this is an issue, or a crime, or that there is a victim. Frankly, some of you guys go overboard acting disgusted.

The man doth protest to much.

[bcroslin]

I just want to say, from the perspective of probably one of the youngest people on this message board, that I found this discussion to be exactly what I expected from you all - laughable.

A bunch of aging, middle to upper class men talking on the internet with a sense of entitlement about what is or isn't okay regarding the portrayal of women, about the appearances of certain women, and about the assumptions they make of the women they know or women in general. Also, the profound inability, even among grown adults to actually differentiate the use of "woman" and "women."

That's privilege. That's sexism. That's downright, straight up misogyny. (And the last part, that's sad for other reasons)

You don't see it because it's so deeply ingrained in you and in this culture. The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming, the same culture that prioritizes the free market more than it does education... It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Also, just because it struck a huge nerve with me - your opinion of Helen Wyman's appearance doesn't really matter, because you probably don't have a freaking leg to stand on (yeah, I'm implying you're not all that and a bag of chips, even though I don't know you, have never met you, and now don't ever wish to. Seems ignorant, huh?). And, even if somebody in this ass-backwards world does find you attractive, Helen can still ride your wheels off any day of the week; since this is a cycling forum, that's all that should matter.

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.

Amen. This thread has been fantastic for one thing: adding people to my ignore list.

[sitzmark]

Yep, there was also the hole in the ozone layer that "we" created that was going kill us, and lets not forget that we were supposed to run out of food and land due to overpopulation.

Water will be first. Desalination and the energy needed to drive it at scale should be more important to the generations following us old farts than humans finding other humans sexually attractive. One may be solvable ... the other not.

[Tony T]

Yep, the tin foils hats are on tight today. There is an ozone hole and we banned CFC's and the hole is getting smaller (see how doing something actually fixes a problem). We are running out of land and food to feed the people, this problem is real and getting worse. The population of earth doubles every 40 years. Do the math.

In the 70's we also had to hear about dependance on foreign oil as we had run out of oil in the US — Now we're approaching the point of exporting more that we import.

Don't hear much these days about the "hole in the sky" or overpopulation, but "Global Warming" we hear or read about at least twice a week. My guess is that this will also be "fixed" and fall out of weekly discussion in about 25 years.

What will be the next coming "disaster" to take the populations minds off of the problems of today?

Yep, tin foil hats.

[Dead Man]

Amen. This thread has been fantastic for one thing: adding people to my ignore list.

He's talking to you too.

[rugbysecondrow]

I just want to say, from the perspective of probably one of the youngest people on this message board, that I found this discussion to be exactly what I expected from you all - laughable.

A bunch of aging, middle to upper class men talking on the internet with a sense of entitlement about what is or isn't okay regarding the portrayal of women, about the appearances of certain women, and about the assumptions they make of the women they know or women in general. Also, the profound inability, even among grown adults to actually differentiate the use of "woman" and "women."

That's privilege. That's sexism. That's downright, straight up misogyny. (And the last part, that's sad for other reasons)

You don't see it because it's so deeply ingrained in you and in this culture. The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming, the same culture that prioritizes the free market more than it does education... It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Also, just because it struck a huge nerve with me - your opinion of Helen Wyman's appearance doesn't really matter, because you probably don't have a freaking leg to stand on (yeah, I'm implying you're not all that and a bag of chips, even though I don't know you, have never met you, and now don't ever wish to. Seems ignorant, huh?). And, even if somebody in this ass-backwards world does find you attractive, Helen can still ride your wheels off any day of the week; since this is a cycling forum, that's all that should matter.

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.

Your lack of wisdom shines kid. May I suggest, if you actually want to "try and fix this mess" and persuade people of your opinion, do so with ideas, not name calling. Do so with clarity of thought, not that unintelligible jumbled mess you regurgitated from some Women in Politics 101 course. Do so with a cogency that will lead people to a greater conclusion, rather than the trolls version of a temper tantrum.

In other words, take a seat on the bench young man, get out of the way so that somebody else can figure it out unimpeded, cause you don't know dick.

[rugbysecondrow]

and some applicable humor:

http://www.theonion.com/article/man-finally-put-in-charge-of-struggling-feminist-m-2338

[Black Dog]

Your lack of wisdom shines kid. May I suggest, if you actually want to "try and fix this mess" and persuade people of your opinion, do so with ideas, not name calling. Do so with clarity of thought, not that unintelligible jumbled mess you regurgitated from some Women in Politics 101 course. Do so with a cogency that will lead people to a greater conclusion, rather than the trolls version of a temper tantrum.

In other words, take a seat on the bench young man, get out of the way so that somebody else can figure it out unimpeded, cause you don't know dick.

This much irony actually hurts...:rolleyes:

[Raffy]

In other words, take a seat on the bench young man, get out of the way so that somebody else can figure it out unimpeded, cause you don't know dick.

Isn't using the bolded word here sexist? Maybe we can use a more sexually-equal term? Just don't wanna offend the sex-equality crowd any further :banana:

[rugbysecondrow]

This much irony actually hurts...:rolleyes:

Cherry picking is so easy, we can all do it.

[PQJ]

I'd like to participate in this but I know better. On the heels of a couple similar 'conversations' we've had recently, it's simultaneously funny, sad, disheartening and scary to see a bunch of (probably) mostly white, mostly male, mostly upper middle class people talk about sex and race.

[DRietz]

Do so with a cogency that will lead people to a greater conclusion, rather than the trolls version of a temper tantrum.

In other words, take a seat on the bench young man, get out of the way so that somebody else can figure it out unimpeded, cause you don't know dick.

https://drawception.com/pub/panels/2012/11-2/gca2EB7bLe-12.png

For the record, I wasn't trying to persuade anyone of my argument. In fact, that was the very vein of my argument - there are some who are simply beyond persuasion (so they say I'm name calling, tell me to mind my own damn business, and make fun of the very obvious truths at play).

Unlike earlier in this thread, where you tried to persuade us that objectification is a-okay because your wife has a master's degree.

I'll be the first to admit it - my post got off track, and I figured after I posted it that the focus would deviate from my point which is that we are not women (with the exception of the tolerant few on this forum), and so we're not qualified to judge what is or is not appropriate for them or to presume that the women we know would feel "honored" to be touted in bikinis for the viewing pleasure of a broad audience.

Sure, the ladies in question were fine with their job. I don't really care that they were in bikinis. I don't really care that the podium girl tradition exists. I just care that the men on this board feel as if the decision is up to them, and because of previous objectification of women in the media, that all and more objectification of women in the media is okay.

[rugbysecondrow]

I'd like to participate in this but I know better. On the heels of a couple similar 'conversations' we've had recently, it's simultaneously funny, sad, disheartening and scary to see a bunch of (probably) mostly white, mostly male, mostly upper middle class people talk about sex and race.

So, honest question:

Should people opt out of conversations regarding race and gender because they are white and male?

[William]

In the 70's we also had to hear about dependance on foreign oil as we had run out of oil in the US — Now we're approaching the point of exporting more that we import.

Don't hear much these days about the "hole in the sky" or overpopulation, but "Global Warming" we hear or read about at least twice a week. My guess is that this will also be "fixed" and fall out of weekly discussion in about 25 years.

What will be the next coming "disaster" to take the populations minds off of the problems of today?

Yep, tin foil hats.


Waiting for the big one. Somebody call Bruce Willis otherwise there's no getting out of the way.


http://media.giphy.com/media/d0YcdgfjJRHwc/giphy.gif





William

[rugbysecondrow]

https://drawception.com/pub/panels/2012/11-2/gca2EB7bLe-12.png


Unlike earlier in this thread, where you tried to persuade us that objectification is a-okay because your wife has a master's degree.


Sure, the ladies in question were fine with their job. I don't really care that they were in bikinis. I don't really care that the podium girl tradition exists. I just care that the men on this board feel as if the decision is up to them, and because of previous objectification of women in the media, that all and more objectification of women in the media is okay.

A) I didn't do that.

B) The media is about objectification of everybody though. Women, men, black men, white cops, soccer moms, trangender folks...it is their job to objectify. Period. They want sales, so they create images and likenesses.

The media creates more strife amongst ladies than it does between the genders, which is a completely different dynamic.

[DRietz]

A) I didn't do that.

B) The media is about objectification of everybody though. Women, men, black men, white cops, soccer moms, trangender folks...it is their job to objectify. Period. They want sales, so they create images and likenesses.

The media creates more strife amongst ladies than it does between the genders, which is a completely different dynamic.

A) Hm, sort of like how I didn't actually call anyone names? The implication was there in my post, you don't think it could have been perceived as there in yours?

B) So you think that's okay? I think that's the root of the issue here - just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it's okay. Not by a long shot. And just because you/him/her don't think it can or should be changed, or is even worthwhile to change, doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

[makoti]

In the 70's we also had to hear about dependance on foreign oil as we had run out of oil in the US — Now we're approaching the point of exporting more that we import.

Don't hear much these days about the "hole in the sky" or overpopulation, but "Global Warming" we hear or read about at least twice a week. My guess is that this will also be "fixed" and fall out of weekly discussion in about 25 years.

What will be the next coming "disaster" to take the populations minds off of the problems of today?

Yep, tin foil hats.

Blinders, is more like it.
We were overly dependent on foreign oil. We fixed that.
The hole in the sky is still there. It is part of the Global Warming issue. Even the Pope knows that.
Overpopulation is still a worry, just not in your lifetime in your backyard. That means it's not a problem, right? We (They, more likely) may figure out a way for the earth to sustain the number of people that it will need to. I'm glad I won't be here to deal with it. As it is, people stave all over the world every day. Not enough food. But you have a grocery store full, so that must be imagined as well.
We worried about dirty air. It's cleaner.
We worried about dirty rivers. They are cleaner, but still need help.
We worried about racial & other social injustices. In the US (because that's all I can speak to), they have dramatically improved in my lifetime. Ain't perfect, but way, way better than before.
Sorry to bother you with such imagined problems, but you are welcome for the results.

[mg2ride]

I just care that the men on this board feel as if the decision is up to them...

This, more than anything, is the crux of the issue! You and people of your ilk want to determine what my decisions are.

A woman does not become objectified when she puts on a bikini. She doesn't become objectified by wearing a bikini on a podium stage. She only becomes objectified when I (or someone else) looks at her as an object and not a person. It is not up to you how I view someone! Furthermore, you don't have the slightest Fn clue how I view someone. It is complete presumption on your part.

I do not care in the least bit how you view the woman in the bikinis in the OP. Why do you seem to care so much how I view them?

[mg2ride]

....
We worried about dirty air. It's cleaner.
We worried about dirty rivers. They are cleaner, but still need help.
We worried about racial & other social injustices.....

OMG, please don't even get me started!

You and people of your ilk don't have the slightest clue regarding cause and effect.

There is no question in my mind that you think because YOU worried about these issues they got resolved. IT allows you to feel good about yourself without imposing upon yourself in any significant way.

I can only assume that you have vowed to never have any children in an effort the prevent over population. If not, you are a complete hypocrite.

[Tony T]

Blinders, is more like it.
We were overly dependent on foreign oil. We fixed that.

Shouldn't you now be worried about fracking?

[Dead Man]

Why do you seem to care so much how I view them?

Because women want more money.. but since they're not as assertive as men and can't just ask for it, they've instead created an entire generation of penis-guilty "men" who will champion the cause for them instead.

[Tony T]

Because women want more money. but since they're not as assertive as men and can't just ask for it

That comment is straight out of the 50's. You can't be that old ;)

[earlfoss]

Reminds me of the Family Guy episode.

http://s24.postimg.org/ug7ju4wl1/Wzmt5.jpg

[makoti]

OMG, please don't even get me started!

You and people of your ilk don't have the slightest clue regarding cause and effect.

There is no question in my mind that you think because YOU worried about these issues they got resolved. IT allows you to feel good about yourself without imposing upon yourself in any significant way.

I can only assume that you have vowed to never have any children in an effort the prevent over population. If not, you are a complete hypocrite.

I didn't do jack about any of this. People way smarter than I did that. The fact is SOMEBODY worried about it, discussed it, planned for it, and improved it. You and the others in your bunker likely think that we just magically became less dependent on foreign oil, the the air just got less polluted, that we can now feed more people with less farm land.
Because nothing, ever, can be your responsibility.

[professerr]

I just want to say, from the perspective of probably one of the youngest people on this message board, that I found this discussion to be exactly what I expected from you all - laughable.

A bunch of aging, middle to upper class men talking on the internet with a sense of entitlement about what is or isn't okay regarding the portrayal of women, about the appearances of certain women, and about the assumptions they make of the women they know or women in general. Also, the profound inability, even among grown adults to actually differentiate the use of "woman" and "women."

That's privilege. That's sexism. That's downright, straight up misogyny. (And the last part, that's sad for other reasons)

You don't see it because it's so deeply ingrained in you and in this culture. The same culture that still doesn't fully believe in humanity's role in global warming, the same culture that prioritizes the free market more than it does education... It's my generation's job to try and fix this mess, and I can't wait for you all to get out of the way so that we can figure it out unimpeded.

Also, just because it struck a huge nerve with me - your opinion of Helen Wyman's appearance doesn't really matter, because you probably don't have a freaking leg to stand on (yeah, I'm implying you're not all that and a bag of chips, even though I don't know you, have never met you, and now don't ever wish to. Seems ignorant, huh?). And, even if somebody in this ass-backwards world does find you attractive, Helen can still ride your wheels off any day of the week; since this is a cycling forum, that's all that should matter.

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.


Good on you for calling this out.

It is pretty amazing the stuff you see posted here. On the plus side though, it really informs me when I talk about, and deal with, these issues with women who complain about exactly the sort of weird sexist blather and outright misogyny you see on this forum sometimes. I rarely experience it directly in my own circles, and then I come here a sorta go... whaht?! It has helped my understanding of the crap women deal with. It is so raw and utterly unapologetic here, and yet the guys spouting off all the time otherwise seem like (and no doubt are) decent human beings. Clearly they understand what bigotry is, judging by how tetchy they get at being lumped together as aging middle class men (not exactly a disadvantaged demographic, I know). I wonder sometimes if the fact that more than a couple of them seem to be stay-at-home workers or something has desensitized them to social norms. So for example (there are many), you have a post (#89) here by Mayhem leering at a photo of Sagan groping a model’s butt -- clearly an act of sexual assault that would at a minimum get him fired and possibly land him in jail and on a sex offenders list. Not OK.

[Dustin]

OMFG--I thought Mad Men was supposed to be a period piece. If only many of the posters to this thread were actually historical reenactors, it would make me feel better about humanity.

I see the world a lot differently now that I have a daughter. This thread is a sobering reminder of the challenges she will face even amongst a relatively privileged class that should know better.

[bcroslin]

A) I didn't do that.

B) The media is about objectification of everybody though. Women, men, black men, white cops, soccer moms, trangender folks...it is their job to objectify. Period. They want sales, so they create images and likenesses.

The media creates more strife amongst ladies than it does between the genders, which is a completely different dynamic.

And now it's the media's fault. So predictable.

[beeatnik]

there's a funny thread on Weight Weenies about a Cervelo RCA

[rugbysecondrow]

To those bemoaning the humanity of the forum, I would suggest that this forum (as a medium) does not lend itself well to a clear articulation of perspective. It is not a fluid conversation, but snippets which can be read and misread any number of ways, depending on your perspective, the equivalent of bumper sticker politics and one liners.

I would suggest that 90% of us here are in 90% agreement and we would discover that very quickly over a pint.

A discussion like this will only be a tit for tat meandering...pun completely intended.

[mg2ride]

I didn't do jack about any of this. People way smarter than I did that. The fact is SOMEBODY worried about it, discussed it, planned for it, and improved it. You and the others in your bunker likely think that we just magically became less dependent on foreign oil, the the air just got less polluted, that we can now feed more people with less farm land.
Because nothing, ever, can be your responsibility.

Great! We can agree that neither your concern or my apathy for those issues had anything to do with them being resolved (or not).

I will continue to choose inconsequential apathy over inconsequential worry any day of the week. When/if things get too bad for you to cope, pop a Xanax and join me. " C'mon in boys, the water is fine" - Delmar

[JimmyTango]

.

[JimmyTango]

Firstly, in regards to "Podium Girls"... That ···· is tired. It is an embarrassing tradition left over from the old days when insensitive f**ks were calling all the shots.

I don't really get why this is even an argument? Am I to understand that some folks on here honestly believe that the presence of "Podium Girls" in cycling is positive in any way?

It certainly doesn't serve the best interests of the sport-- Unless we're trying to scare off women as participants or specifically attract the "MEN ARE THE BEST AND WOMEN ARE FOR LOOKING AT!" crowd, how is cycling gaining from the practice? Only folks who enjoy the objectification of women are pleased by a bunch of young girls getting paid min or just above min wage to stand around in bikinis doing NOTHING BUT DISPLAYING THEIR BODIES for spectators to oogle at.

And as for the Girls... They have to stand around essentially naked for our entertainment and are, I'll venture a guess here, getting paid a pittance to put up with our collective creepiness. How are they gaining from their own exploitation? We know the money isn't any better than a job that pays for actual productive work. They sure as hell aren't going to be able to "climb the umbrella girl ranks" and start contributing to their pensions one day so they can support families. They aren't adding anything to their resumes with jobs like this-- if anything they are undermining their own hire-ability down the line because it is exactly the OLD WHITE MEN who paid them to work as eye candy in the first place that will judge them as shallow and unaccomplished when the girls come knocking for a real job down the line.

Again, I don't get why anyone is even arguing here.

And as far as the "Old, Rich, White, and Right" vs "Bleeding Heart Liberal" thing going on as the major undercurrent in this discussion... Let's not forget that we are all white dudes in America an therefore were all born equally evil ;)

That said, the only people who gain from economic and social conservatism are the elite (the poor and uneducated are often sold on the idea of the right too, because they have been told that the only way they are going to escape their poverty is by acting like the rich-- which we all know isn't how the world works). The educated, organized, and increasingly disenfranchised population knows that they have nothing to gain by playing by the rules of the rich. The world is getting poorer, smaller (read as: more interconnected), and smarter so a collective drift to the left in inevitable.
When the oldies die hopefully their WASPy cynicism will die with them.

[Lewis Moon]

Hat's off to Helen Wyman for making the smartest comment of the bunch:

British cyclist Helen Wyman gave her views on the podium model issue.
"I think podium girls should be a thing of the past," she told BBC Sport.
"It's 2015. I'd much prefer to see the race sponsors on the podium, as it's their money that allow us to do what we do, and we'd prefer to see them rewarded."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/33145897

Like. Wyman is a class act.

[simonov]

I'm not sure how enjoying looking at beautiful women who seem to be happy up on the podium is degrading them. And most of the girls up there are actually pretty classy, I don't see too many in thongs and daisy dukes. Science will never unlock the mysteries of the liberal mind. The emasculation of the modern male is disturbing.

You didn't answer the questions. What are the symptoms of this emasculation you keep referring to and why is it so disturbing to you?

[Louis]

Am I to understand that some folks on here honestly believe that the presence of "Podium Girls" in cycling is positive in any way?

I think so. Otherwise strip clubs and whorehouses (which are related, but farther down the same continuum) would not exist.

[mg2ride]

....and the product of centuries of men demanding what they want (sex) from women.

P.S. If you have never had a woman "demand" sex from you, you are not doing something right.

Jus Sayin!

[rugbysecondrow]

I think so. Otherwise strip clubs and whorehouses (which are related, but farther down the same continuum) would not exist.

And this is the problem.

Podium girls on the same continuum with strip clubs and whore houses?

High School Cheerleaders, NFL Cheerleaders, where are they on the continuum? Cindy Crawford or Giselle, where are they? Beauty Pageants?

I suppose I don't see the outrage. Somebody asked about the presence of podium girls in cycling and is it positive. I don't think it is a negative, but I do think it is a positive in some respects. The podium is a photo opportunity. People enjoy and appreciate beautiful women, so it actually catches attention and holds the attention of those merely browsing a page. I think the ladies in the bikinis actually detracted from the photo, not because they were females, but because they didn't look classy. Most podium girls seem to look presentable, sophisticated, higher scale. Not like there is a mud wrestling tourney up next.

Tacky does not equal offensive though.

[oldpotatoe]

Surprised but good discussion, IMHO.

[JimmyTango]

And this is the problem.

Podium girls on the same continuum with strip clubs and whore houses?

High School Cheerleaders, NFL Cheerleaders, where are they on the continuum? Cindy Crawford or Giselle, where are they? Beauty Pageants?

Most podium girls seem to look presentable, sophisticated, higher scale. Not like there is a mud wrestling tourney up next.

Tacky does not equal offensive though.

Hmmm, so classy is somehow baked into the cake? Like, how much does it remind you of an exploited sex-worker? Too whore-ish and it isn't classy anymore, I assume?

But boobs that are coordinated well with the boobs around them and kept clean and smooth-- now that is classy. I like my women like my horses, and cars... well kept, racy, healthy, and ready for action! Right? Right!

*EYES ARE ROLLING*

Seriously though, I think NFL Cheerleaders are definitely on the same continuum. Oversexed and undervalued= not helping

High School Cheerleaders? At my High School they were not ever half naked. The experience was based on the performance, not the meat. No problem here.

Strip clubs and whore houses?? Are you kidding? These are both institutions that rank very near rock-bottom in terms of the contributions they have made to any kind of legacy in improving society or the human condition. Right down there with slavery and the like!

Cindy Crawford and Gissele is another story all together. They are a part of an industry that exists unto itself. As in, the consumers and producers of fashion modeling are all there explicitly to participate in the exchange. They are at least in control of their own destiny (although I don't think I like the way fashion as an industry seems to pray on women's insecurities) In the context of this discussion Cindy Crawford and Gissele would be the equivalent of the racers on the podium-- aka the main event. No exploitation going on, so no real problem.

And if you had a daughter would you let her participate in Beauty Pageants? More complicated subject as I think those that follow pageants would argue that scoring is based on contestants merits beyond just physical appearance, but I know I would rather a daughter of mine take up music, sport, or academics than pageantry... The very fact that we don't have Male Pageants points to the misogyny built into them.

[unterhausen]

to me, these women were really out of place at that race. It's a bit of a throwback to the crudity that was only in place for a few years back in the late '60s and early '70s. I don't think objecting to them is the result of some sort of newly discovered PC issue at all. The women at the TdF are well dressed, and I don't see the comparison.

[makoti]

Shouldn't you now be worried about fracking?

In your yard, it's fine by me.

[Louis]

Podium girls on the same continuum with strip clubs and whore houses?

Yup.

That's why it's a continuum - it goes from one end of the spectrum (harmless) to the other (horrible).

Where stuff like JonBenet Ramsey and podium girls fit it, that's what we're discussing.

[rugbysecondrow]

More like monster truck rally vs. cycling podium.

I have two daughters, if one of them chose pageants, I would let them. I have friends (mothers) whose teen daughters are involved in pageants. Not my cup of tea, but neither is soccer.

I view podium girls the same way I view any other model, they are there to sell an experience, a brand, and event. Cindy and Giselle sell products, these ladies are the same IMO. They do not exist unto themselves, they exist to sell goods. They help frame a brand.

Cycling could lose podium girls tomorrow and there would be about 3 people in the USA who would notice, and I aint one of them. I just think it is inconsistent to view these models as exploited, but other models as exempt.

I say this as somebody who has actually been paid to model, but that is a story for when we have our pint.



Hmmm, so classy is somehow baked into the cake? Like, how much does it remind you of an exploited sex-worker? Too whore-ish and it isn't classy anymore, I assume?

But boobs that are coordinated well with the boobs around them and kept clean and smooth-- now that is classy. I like my women like my horses, and cars... well kept, racy, healthy, and ready for action! Right? Right!

*EYES ARE ROLLING*

Seriously though, I think NFL Cheerleaders are definitely on the same continuum. Oversexed and undervalued= not helping

High School Cheerleaders? At my High School they were not ever half naked. The experience was based on the performance, not the meat. No problem here.

Strip clubs and whore houses?? Are you kidding? These are both institutions that rank very near rock-bottom in terms of the contributions they have made to any kind of legacy in improving society or the human condition. Right down there with slavery and the like!

Cindy Crawford and Gissele is another story all together. They are a part of an industry that exists unto itself. As in, the consumers and producers of fashion modeling are all there explicitly to participate in the exchange. They are at least in control of their own destiny (although I don't think I like the way fashion as an industry seems to pray on women's insecurities) In the context of this discussion Cindy Crawford and Gissele would be the equivalent of the racers on the podium-- aka the main event. No exploitation going on, so no real problem.

And if you had a daughter would you let her participate in Beauty Pageants? More complicated subject as I think those that follow pageants would argue that scoring is based on contestants merits beyond just physical appearance, but I know I would rather a daughter of mine take up music, sport, or academics than pageantry... The very fact that we don't have Male Pageants points to the misogyny built into them.

[JimmyTango]

but that is a story for when we have our pint.

Word.

[Raffy]

I suppose I don't see the outrage. Somebody asked about the presence of podium girls in cycling and is it positive. I don't think it is a negative, but I do think it is a positive in some respects. The podium is a photo opportunity. People enjoy and appreciate beautiful women, so it actually catches attention and holds the attention of those merely browsing a page.

Exactly how I view podium girls from my end. I think the issue with some people is that appreciating outside/aesthetic beauty = misogyny. I guess we have to also inquire on what these women like to do in their free time, their favorite food and drinks, etc. and comment on their inside beauty too so as not to be considered misogynistic. /facepalm/

[yngpunk]

Surprised but good discussion, IMHO.

Here, I'll help you get it locked...

It was/is Lance's fault that we have women on the podium...

:eek:

[CheshireCat]

in the response to "we've fixed all these problems we had?

nah, we really haven't.

Instead of being manifested by acute symptoms, we're now dealing with the long term fallouts of all of it: sky high rates of cancer, obesity, and heart disease. The latest findings show that our terrible air quality is actually a pivotal contribution to the development of atherosclerotic heart disease in the form of particulate inhalation induced microvascular injury.

We humans are great at bandaid fixing things, calling it "fixed" and patting ourselves on the back ("nailed it!") but we're actually incredibly short sighted and not nearly as good at making informed decisions for our own and our family's welfare as the laissez faire romanticists love to epouse.

Back to social problems: My issue with podium girls: The weird idea that we show through media, cartoons, and stories that somehow every man "deserves a girl" for being a good guy. This was an issue that started in our comic books and cartoons as kids. We have this weird misconception that somehow being good at something should have you awarded with a woman.
I don't mind modeling or the fashion industry, and I don't mind the idea of well dressed women on the podium, but the idea they epouse of being awarded for good deeds and performance is antiquated and quite frankly creepy as hell.


but whatever: I mean, whatever two consenting people do in their own time is their business, and they're clearly there of their own volition.


but, that's just like...my opinion, man.

https://lazydabbler.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/the-dude.jpg

[Tony T]

12 pages and so mention of Peter :)
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/columnists/2013/4/2/1364905985311/Peter-Sagan-008.jpg

[mg2ride]

Instead of being manifested by acute symptoms, we're now dealing with the long term fallouts of all of it: sky high rates of cancer, obesity, and heart disease. The latest findings show that our terrible air quality is actually a pivotal contribution to the development of atherosclerotic heart disease in the form of particulate inhalation induced microvascular injury.


We have already established that as long as you and a few others spend enough time worrying about these issues they will get resolved.

I will thank you in advance for your service! It frees me up to fully enjoy my apathy.



...The weird idea that we show through media, cartoons, and stories that somehow every man "deserves a girl" for being a good guy. This was an issue that started in our comic books and cartoons as kids. We have this weird misconception that somehow being good at something should have you awarded with a woman.
I don't mind modeling or the fashion industry, and I don't mind the idea of well dressed women on the podium, but the idea they epouse of being awarded for good deeds and performance is antiquated and quite frankly creepy as hell.



"Girls only like guys who have great skills. You know, like nunchuck skills, bo hunting skills, computer hacking skills."
-Napoleon Dynamite

[PQJ]

I will thank you in advance for your service! It frees me up to fully enjoy my apathy.


If only it were apathy. Seems more like antipathy to me.

[mg2ride]

If only it were apathy. Seems more like antipathy to me.

You might be confusing the causes.

I have very strong feelings regarding the long standing traditions of publicly objectifying women. It's global warming, air quality, and other nonsense that I'm apathetic about.

[oldpotatoe]

Here, I'll help you get it locked...

It was/is Lance's fault that we have women on the podium...

:eek:

And they all look like his mom.:eek::eek:

[Tony T]

You might be confusing the causes.

I have very strong feelings regarding the long standing traditions of publicly objectifying women. It's global warming, air quality, and other nonsense that I'm apathetic about.

Are you referring to this as the objectification of women?

http://radiocorsa.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/tour_de_france_podium_2014-.jpg

I don't see how anyone can call this "objectifying women"

[Len J]

Are you referring to this as the objectification of women?

http://radiocorsa.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/tour_de_france_podium_2014-.jpg

I don't see how anyone can call this "objectifying women"

Why are they there?

[Louis]

I'm waiting for someone to say "To conduct traffic on the podium and make sure that no one falls off."

[yngpunk]

I'm waiting for someone to say "To conduct traffic on the podium and make sure that no one falls off."

Someone has to bring the winner the flowers and stuffed animal and lead the applause

[makoti]

I'm waiting for someone to say "To conduct traffic on the podium and make sure that no one falls off."

I've heard that's why. How much training you figure you need for that job?

[Black Dog]

Firstly, in regards to "Podium Girls"... That ···· is tired. It is an embarrassing tradition left over from the old days when insensitive f**ks were calling all the shots.

I don't really get why this is even an argument? Am I to understand that some folks on here honestly believe that the presence of "Podium Girls" in cycling is positive in any way?

It certainly doesn't serve the best interests of the sport-- Unless we're trying to scare off women as participants or specifically attract the "MEN ARE THE BEST AND WOMEN ARE FOR LOOKING AT!" crowd, how is cycling gaining from the practice? Only folks who enjoy the objectification of women are pleased by a bunch of young girls getting paid min or just above min wage to stand around in bikinis doing NOTHING BUT DISPLAYING THEIR BODIES for spectators to oogle at.

And as for the Girls... They have to stand around essentially naked for our entertainment and are, I'll venture a guess here, getting paid a pittance to put up with our collective creepiness. How are they gaining from their own exploitation? We know the money isn't any better than a job that pays for actual productive work. They sure as hell aren't going to be able to "climb the umbrella girl ranks" and start contributing to their pensions one day so they can support families. They aren't adding anything to their resumes with jobs like this-- if anything they are undermining their own hire-ability down the line because it is exactly the OLD WHITE MEN who paid them to work as eye candy in the first place that will judge them as shallow and unaccomplished when the girls come knocking for a real job down the line.

Again, I don't get why anyone is even arguing here.

And as far as the "Old, Rich, White, and Right" vs "Bleeding Heart Liberal" thing going on as the major undercurrent in this discussion... Let's not forget that we are all white dudes in America an therefore were all born equally evil ;)

That said, the only people who gain from economic and social conservatism are the elite (the poor and uneducated are often sold on the idea of the right too, because they have been told that the only way they are going to escape their poverty is by acting like the rich-- which we all know isn't how the world works). The educated, organized, and increasingly disenfranchised population knows that they have nothing to gain by playing by the rules of the rich. The world is getting poorer, smaller (read as: more interconnected), and smarter so a collective drift to the left in inevitable.
When the oldies die hopefully their WASPy cynicism will die with them.

Well said sir.

[1centaur]

Undoubtedly objectified, IMO. They are there to be beautiful. Traffic cops could come in many forms. BUT, and this has been a cliche for my entire life, is an objectified person ONLY objectified? When a man is objectified, is he only an object, or is the rest of his worth still there and everybody knows it? There is an assumption by some that a woman objectified is viewed as nothing more than that object by hetero men. That assumption is EXTREMELY often wrong. It is possible to focus for a while on one aspect of a person to the exclusion of others without thinking that's all there is to them. The inability of some to look past beauty does not imply the inability of most to do so (including the women who love "Magic Mike"). The predicate to perceived sexism is in fact very often wrong. This, of course, can never be admitted in good company, these ideas can never be contemplated, and those who offer them must be bad, bad people, or at the least clueless and backward.

[Tony T]

Why are they there?

Obviously to help sell the product(s).
Some of the younger viewers out there may not realize this, but the TDF is not run solely to give a yellow jersey to the winner (and even the color yellow was first selected to sell product)

No different than if they were holding a can of Coke. :)

[Dead Man]

Why are they there?

They're adornments. They're there to add aesthetic and atmosphere. Sure... they're "objects" on the podium... so yes, they're being "objectified."

So?

[Louis]

Obviously to help sell the product(s).

Yup - just like the ladies in the notorious Ridgid Tool calenders.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PZeDAwiP47o/SJPaLLojHsI/AAAAAAAAABU/z86GbrJbFR0/s1600/ridgid1.jpg

[Tony T]

Yup - just like the ladies in the notorious Ridgid Tool calenders.

Have a Coke and a Smile :)

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01889/yes-girl-The-_Yes__1889733i.jpg

[Louis]

Have a Coke and a Smile :)

To say nothing of the shape of the Coke bottle.

[plattyjo]

Plattyjo - my hat goes off to you for even wanting to hang out in this disturbing boys' club.

I hold onto the optimistic belief that I would like most of the people on here if I met them IRL -- and that it's just the internet f**kwad theory in full effect in this thread. And it seems that most of the opinions shared here are supportive of women and our love of the sport, so that's comforting.

[sworcester]

Wait, what are we arguing about?

And to the "youngster", we here aren't necessarily the populace responsible for global warming as a generation.
I am what "you" might refer to affluent but that should probably be based on where I live and the cost of living where I am and how I choose to live. I am not a lobbyist and to the contrary, I despise them. I would love to see coral reefs abound for future generations and the ice caps to not melt. And I would gladly pay for it whether it be in taxes or the cost of goods. I recycle as much as I can, and always have. I think that how I live today is the basis for where my children and their generations have to live forever.
I also want people who can't afford food to be able to get assistance for it, and I do help where I can. I believe we have to unf**k the world.

But that wasn't the subject of the post you attempted to derail.

I am here on the forum to discuss bicycling, and in this case it was the fact that during a female race, there were women in front of the podium in bikinis. I would say that is in bad taste, sure. In the spirit of cycling and the tradition of podium girls, would have loved to have seen them kissed on the cheek by men. I think that would have been fair, a role reversal that would have been a great way to play the game. But in the current role of cycling, maybe the local mayor up there.
What happened was different from what we are used to. But the US has become a very uptight culture and afraid of what everyone else is going to think.
Did I forget anything? As a 55 year old (56 in racing terms) I strive to make the world a better place and I take issue with you telling me what I think and how I act.

My children were brought up better. (although I do applaud you for speaking your mind, they would do that too.) If more of "your" generation did that, your world will be better. Punk rock roots would tell me to tell you to question authority, but we (on the forum) aren't it (I think). ANd it took me 13 pages to get here, not really worth it, but I was drinking beer anyway with nothing else to do. (Queue the "not a racer" jokes because I am not cutting to get to weight). I bike to live not live to bike. I just want to have fun.
/diatribedone

[mg2ride]

Are you referring to this as the objectification of women?

http://radiocorsa.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/tour_de_france_podium_2014-.jpg"

Yes I am!

However and ATMO, that don't mean it's a bad thing.

[bcroslin]

I hold onto the optimistic belief that I would like most of the people on here if I met them IRL -- and that it's just the internet f**kwad theory in full effect in this thread. And it seems that most of the opinions shared here are supportive of women and our love of the sport, so that's comforting.

This thread is embarrassing and I can't believe the mods haven't killed it. Makes me question my participation here.

[Dead Man]

This thread is embarrassing and I can't believe the mods haven't killed it. Makes me question my participation here.

There's a lot of people having really calm, intelligent debate in this thread, and only a couple who are taking it to an unfortunately personal level.

You're questioning your participation on this board for sake of... what? 2 people who have differing opinions from you on one topic? I don't think you're being very reasonable in this.

[fuzzalow]

This thread is embarrassing and I can't believe the mods haven't killed it. Makes me question my participation here.

No. This thread is not embarrassing. The attitudes expressed herein and the postures adopted by some members in their posts may be embarrassing. Let each person stand by what they wrote.

Thank you Mods for exhibiting restraint and discretion. Restraint and discretion is also mostly exhibited by the membership, even in consideration of the divergence of views and the inflammatory nature of the topic.

I know why I participate here. It isn't perfect but it's better than most. Say what you gotta say.

[OtayBW]

Geez - I step away for a few hours and WHOOSH! This!
I wish the weather would warm up so we could all get back outside and do some riding.....:crap:

[professerr]

This thread is embarrassing and I can't believe the mods haven't killed it. Makes me question my participation here.

I agree, it is embarrassing. But I’m glad it is not locked -- better that this sort sexism is out in the open where everyone can see it. Like photos of past bigots protesting women’s rights, desegregation, gay marriage and whatnot, the ugliness is so self-evident that it is more persuasive than anything I could write.

[DRietz]

But that wasn't the subject of the post you attempted to derail.


Yeah, definitely hereby issuing an apology for my fury-induced painting of the situation. I got too into it and that led me to mention some off topic things from the same vein of anger. While I stand by my positions, the generalizations I made (as I realized and as pointed out to me) were...lame.

Gonna go ahead and duck out now that rugbysecondcrow and I are no longer on the brink of fistacuffs.

Sorry for bringing the anger to the internet, folks. Have a nice, respectful day.

[makoti]

I agree with The B & Fuzzalow. It's not the thread that might be a bit embarrassing, it's the attitudes & opinions of a few that seem unsavory. There are one or two that make me wonder if the internet is the proper place for them, but they don't make me wonder why I'm here. I've been on boards that went up in flames because one or two people couldn't master civil discourse. I think the mods do a fine job keeping it running smoothly. Thank you, guys.
Now, back on topic... as to the original girls in question, that was so wrong it was comical. I felt sorry for them standing out there like that. They got paid to do a job, but they looked silly. The two in the picture above, well, they serve no real purpose except tradition, I guess. They've been there for years, so they have to be there. Maybe soon one of the major tours will decide to break with tradition & that will be that.

[Louis]

A positive portrayal in the NYT from a few years back. http://nyti.ms/1MQSPR6

There's this bit about Hincapie's wife:

Moressee-Pichot says that she warns her hostesses that “there is seduction involved” with the riders, the clients and other men at the Tour, and advises them to stay at arm’s length. But she can do nothing about love at first sight.

“I know that more than one of my colleagues is married to a podium girl or former podium girl,” the German rider Jens Voigt said. “I could name 10 off the top of my head.”

One former hostess, Melanie Simonneau, met the American rider George Hincapie on the Tour podium in 2003. They locked eyes. And that was that.

“I pretty much ended up chasing her throughout the entire Tour de France,” Hincapie said. “I finally got her number and she said, ‘I’m totally not allowed to talk to you.’ ”

But they began exchanging text messages. He also visited her in the start villages. Finally, her bosses noticed. They asked her to choose Hincapie or her job.

“I left three days before the Tour’s end, and it was the best thing I ever did,” she said. They eventually married and have two children.

“So for me, I don’t think the tradition of having girls on the podium is not too bad,” she said. “For some people, it’s wonderful.”

[Bruce K]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but one of the major auto racing organizations (World Endurance?) has/is dropping podium girls from their post race celebrations

BK

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree, it is embarrassing. But I’m glad it is not locked -- better that this sort sexism is out in the open where everyone can see it. Like photos of past bigots protesting women’s rights, desegregation, gay marriage and whatnot, the ugliness is so self-evident that it is more persuasive than anything I could write.

Amidst all the hand wringing, I think it is clear we not only hold differing opinions but we operate in worlds. So long as mine is a good one, I treat those who inhabit it with respect and dignity, I can sleep at night.

As an aside, I showed my wife the OP photo and asked "what do you think?". She replied "nothing really, I mean, it seems unnecessary that they would have women in bikinis at a female race, but whatever." She then proceeded to laugh at all of us for how much time and how many pages we spent talking about something so trivial. " are you still reading about that photo" ( head shake, chuckle and walks away)

Great woman she is and the most important woman who's opinion I am concerned with. Cheers!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[buddybikes]

Tour of California Podium girls, and google Umbrella Girls, bit less classy
http://uscyclingreport.com/photogallery/d/12234-1/Podium+girls.JPG

[Len J]

Obviously to help sell the product(s).
Some of the younger viewers out there may not realize this, but the TDF is not run solely to give a yellow jersey to the winner (and even the color yellow was first selected to sell product)

No different than if they were holding a can of Coke. :)

They are there solely to get men to look at them and sell the product by association. They are there because they are beautiful. If that isn't objectification, not sure what is.

[rugbysecondrow]

It seems folks don't like beauty or attractiveness being used in any commercial sense, that isn't a reasonable stance.

I have always enjoyed Paul's monologue from the movie Beautiful Girls (great movie). I don't agree with every point, but I do agree with most of it ( up until the last line) and it articulates why beauty in advertising works. It is much deeper than an objectification, it is visceral, emotional.

"Look. Supermodels are beautiful girls, Will. A beautiful girl can make you dizzy, like you’ve been drinkin’ Jack and Coke all morning. She can make you feel high: full of the single greatest commodity known to man, promise. Promise of a better day. Promise of a greater hope. Promise of a new tomorrow. This particular aura can be found in the gait of a beautiful girl. In her smile, and in her soul, and the way she makes every rotten little thing about life seem like it’s gonna be okay. The supermodels, Willy? That’s all they are. Bottled promise. Scenes from a brand new day. Hope dancing in stiletto heels. … A beautiful girl is all-powerful and that is as good as love. That’s as good as love."




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[victoryfactory]

It's Primal.
The victorious champion receives the spoils.
Gold, Awards, flowers, Key to the city, Women (by suggestion)

This goes way back in history and the vestiges remain.

Simple, really. And we still go through the motions.

It bothers some people, It doesn't bother others. So we search for a compromise.
And human consciousness continues to evolve.

VF

[mg2ride]

The best thing about a thread like this is that it present the opportunity for many folks to feel better about themselves.

[Tony T]

They are there solely to get men to look at them and sell the product by association. They are there because they are beautiful. If that isn't objectification, not sure what is.

I thought the objection was only to "Podium Girls" in cycling, but I see that the objection is to all professional models. Fair enough.

[Wesley37]

It's Primal.
The victorious champion receives the spoils.
Gold, Awards, flowers, Key to the city, Women (by suggestion)

This goes way back in history and the vestiges remain.

Simple, really. And we still go through the motions.

It bothers some people, It doesn't bother others. So we search for a compromise.
And human consciousness continues to evolve.

VF

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[weisan]

Context is EVERYTHING!

[Gsinill]

Serious question (really): how do you put a forum member on the "ignore list"?
Can't find it, haven't felt the need so far but this changed with this thread :(

Thanks
GS

[yngpunk]

In the "User CP" (Your Control Panel) menu (when you are logged in), there should be the option to "Edit Ignore List" in the Settings and Options section

[rugbysecondrow]

Serious question (really): how do you put a forum member on the "ignore list"?
Can't find it, haven't felt the need so far but this changed with this thread :(

Thanks
GS

Quick Links, User Control Panel, Edit Ignore List, add away!

[unterhausen]

can you add yourself to that list?

[makoti]

can you add yourself to that list?

You want to ignore yourself? Really, you're not that bad. Give yourself a chance. Once you get to know you, you may like you.

[beeatnik]

can you add yourself to that list?

unterhausen, i like your guilty by association style

[Louis]

The best thing about a thread like this is that it present the opportunity for many folks to feel better about themselves.

It didn't take a thread on podium girls for me to realize that there are plenty of folks out there in Interwebs Land who disagree with me on a number of issues, and I assume the same holds for you.

[Jaq]

To say nothing of the shape of the Coke bottle.

Or the shape of the violin, guitar, and any other number of instruments crafted to evoke the mystique of the feminine.