Trainer Type to Best Simulate Road Resistance

[Splash]

What is the best type of trainer that best simulates road resistance :

- Wind
- Magneto
- Fluid

?


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[numbskull]

Rollers with a progressive resistance drum and an inertia drum do the job pretty well.

[Peter P.]

Wind and fluid trainers are nearly equal in reproducing the resistance curve of "real world" riding because gases and fluids obey the same physics laws.

The only difference between them is wind trainers are noisier.

Any differences in speed you experience on a trainer vs. on the road will be due to the trainer being designed for a specific body type/weight. I think I've seen the number 160lbs. kicked around with some brands.

This chart is a good illustration.

http://sterling-ranch.com/Ciclismo/TrainerPowerCurves.jpg

[kramnnim]

Computrainer, Kickr, one of the Tacx trainers... (Genius, Bushido, etc)

[stephenmarklay]

My Kurt Kinetic Fluid has good feel. My E-motion rollers less so but I still like them.

I have read that Lemonds wind trainer has great feel and sounds like a train.

[lhuerta]

Rollers with wind resistance (e.g. Kreitler)

[Charles M]

The best road feel comes from smoothness of resistance and Flywheel weight.

A solid example is the Velotron from the Racermate guys...

https://www.racermateinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/velotron-side-shot-570x392.png

Affordable is relative but the best trainer widely available right now for me is Wahoo's KickR.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/13-wahoo-kickr-01.jpg

The review is here: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/tech-n-spec/wahoo-fitness-kickr-trainer/

It's the best combination of program resources from loads of companies along with a heavy flywheel, big magnets and very smooth operation that make for very good road feel and spin along with great power transitions and resistance...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/13-wahoo-kickr-15.jpg

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/13-wahoo-kickr-14.jpg

[RobJ]

As others, yes rollers would have the most natural road feel. Not everyone's cup of tea. Next would be the Kickr or any that provides resistance through an electronic brake (i.e. no rear wheel in use) versus resistance applied against the rear wheel. And yes heard that the Lemond is very loud. After that I would say fluid definitely. And of those I liked the KK the most and if you get the KK Road Machine you get the added realism of the bike moving and not locked into a fixed trainer.

[Ti Designs]

Has anyone EVER mistaken one for the other???

Trainers are for training, they are how you isolate what you're working on, so you can make your training more effective (or to answer another thread's question: Yes, rest intervals count a lot!!!) The road is where you get to enjoy the results of your training.

I've always fought the common conception that cycling is a sport with no skills, yet everything else you do involves skills - I understand where it comes from, I just don't get how people fall for it. The trainer vs. road thing is along the same lines. Musicians play scales, and some of them play music too - never do the two get confused. They may use elements of scales (like key changes) in pieces of music, much like you would use what you've learned on the trainer on the road, but nobody confuses playing scales for music. When was the last time you listened to scales???

A trainer is a tool, it has specific uses that it works for, and lots that it doesn't. Asking it to do what it doesn't do is a lot like saying "I have a frying pan, and I'm going to paint my house with it." It's just never going to work...

[shovelhd]

The man has a lot of questions.

[malcolm]

computrainer hands down

[Jeff Borisch]

Has anyone EVER mistaken one for the other???

Trainers are for training, they are how you isolate what you're working on, so you can make your training more effective (or to answer another thread's question: Yes, rest intervals count a lot!!!) The road is where you get to enjoy the results of your training.

I've always fought the common conception that cycling is a sport with no skills, yet everything else you do involves skills - I understand where it comes from, I just don't get how people fall for it. The trainer vs. road thing is along the same lines. Musicians play scales, and some of them play music too - never do the two get confused. They may use elements of scales (like key changes) in pieces of music, much like you would use what you've learned on the trainer on the road, but nobody confuses playing scales for music. When was the last time you listened to scales???

A trainer is a tool, it has specific uses that it works for, and lots that it doesn't. Asking it to do what it doesn't do is a lot like saying "I have a frying pan, and I'm going to paint my house with it." It's just never going to work...

Right, one might have road feel but you won't have road fun. Nearly anything sold today will work if it is mechanically sound and allows you to ride at a given speed for a length of time. I think I'm mentally stronger for having spent more time on the dismal thing this winter and spring.

My thoughts...
Don't get a wind trainer unless you want to drive away your spouse or roommate.

Mag trainers are fine and mechanically simpler than fluid.

Fluid trainers can vary in resistance as they warm up, so you need to consider that if using virtual power (https://www.trainerroad.com/virtual-power).

Rollers are a great way to practice form and upper body stability. Though I'm not good enough to do hard intervals on them, they are more fun than a mag trainer.

[11.4]

Perhaps echoing TiD'd a little, indoor trainers are not necessarily intended to be just like the road. They are to do odious workouts that we despise but that make us faster back on the road (or track). If you live in Grand Rapids or Green Bay and you need something to ride all winter, I'd personally choose rollers for the means to keep me sane and a Kickr for the means to rupture my aorta in workouts. Why the Kickr? It's smooth and quiet and it has the power control features that let you do workouts you can only guess at on other trainers without a power meter. It's the last feature that's most important. Quiet is important to many of us because it keeps peace with family and neighbors. Ride quality is valuable but honestly, do a killer forty minute workout and get off the trainer. I hate all trainers, but one will make you faster than anything you can stick on your bike. I like rollers to keep me feeling smooth, for good aerobic workout, and to make up for the agony of tough trainer workouts.

The point about trainers is: You can use one to imitate a long road ride, but that is a painful way to train inefficiently. Use a trainer properly and keep it short. Then the training capability becomes more important than your ability to endure hours on it. And best simulation of road resistance and so on aren't quite as important as they used to be.

Of course, for all the money we pour into bikes, traveling to Alpe d'Huez, and so on, we should all be moving to San Diego. That's the best use of our money if we really want to get fitter on our bikes.

[wallymann]

the KK resistance curve is designed to mimic as precisely as possible the aero-drag ramp on level ground in still air. nothing is as "realistic" as the KK.

[Lewis Moon]

Asphalt?

[makoti]

Has anyone EVER mistaken one for the other???

I've always wondered about "road feel" with trainers. Ridden a few types & rollers, and nothing is close to how a bike feels in the wild. Train on a trainer. Do stuff you can't do out side very easily. Steady efforts without traffic interruptions. Push yourself until you can't turn the cranks and still don't fall over. Short (or long) very focused workouts. You'll never, even with ones that simulate grade & headwind, get anything inside that feels like outside.

[guido]

Another vote for the Kurt Kinetic Road machine or R&R trainers. They are the next best thing to being outside...

[Splash]

Hi Guido.

How do you compensate for the fact that KK is not an ERGO unit?

How well do you comply to your prescribed training power zones and what do you do to maintain your levels without ERGO?

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[kramnnim]

Erg mode is good for making you stay in the set wattage. Real roads do not do that...at all. A "smart" trainer can be used in erg mode, but it can also be set to mimic the resistance of a flat road or a 10% climb, or anything in between...

[PaulE]

They have been out of production for quite a while but used ones show up on Craigslist. And not surprisingly with low miles/usage. The Wahoos and Computrainers are probably lots better but if you can find one of these in good shape for less than $200 it's a steal.

[11.4]

They have been out of production for quite a while but used ones show up on Craigslist. And not surprisingly with low miles/usage. The Wahoos and Computrainers are probably lots better but if you can find one of these in good shape for less than $200 it's a steal.

Actually, though it's pretty crude technologically, it's one of the best trainers ever made. A lot of riders, including Chris Hoy and much of the Sky team, kept using them long after they were discontinued. You can't do the gee-whiz digital stuff on it, but it's simply an unbreakable and very smooth trainer. Even at a bit more than $200, if it's in really good shape it's better than trainers at twice the price.

[Splash]

Kraminin

How do you compensate for not having erg mode for set power interval training and staying in the set wattage?

Just how important is erg mode anyway?


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[Joachim]

Kraminin

How do you compensate for not having erg mode for set power interval training and staying in the set wattage?

Just how important is erg mode anyway?


Splash

You use your gears. Riders have been able to stay within their power ranges/zones long before there was an 'ergo' mode.

[professerr]

I once used rollers with both a flywheel and fan attachment. I think Kreitler makes something like this, though the set up I used was custom/kludge job. The flywheel simulates momentum/mass and the fan simulates wind resistance. Unlike plain old rollers, you can ride full power till you drop. Made me very, very smooth on the road, even when hammering.

[wallymann]

How do you compensate for the fact that KK is not an ERGO unit? How well do you comply to your prescribed training power zones and what do you do to maintain your levels without ERGO?

put the bike in the gear that results in the cadence/wattage you're after and pay attention to your power output when doing the workout. the gearing you use on a KK will mimic very closely what you use in the real world, as designed.

erg mode is contrived and completely unnecessary when you have gears and a good resistance unit.

I've always wondered about "road feel" with trainers. Ridden a few types & rollers, and nothing is close to how a bike feels in the wild. Train on a trainer.

road feel is a myth. as you say, a trainer will never "feel" like the road, but i believe that a quality resistance unit's ramp-up should mimic how resistance ramps up in the real world so that the training is most relevant. in the real world resistance will *never* ramp up in a linear fashion as found on a mag-unit, for instance, which IMO lessens their relevance to quality training.

[kramnnim]

Kraminin

How do you compensate for not having erg mode for set power interval training and staying in the set wattage?

Just how important is erg mode anyway?


Splash

With a dumb trainer, it takes X watts to spin the wheel X mph (km/h?), so to stay at say 200w, you might need to pedal 85 rpm in a particular gear. If you get tired and slow down to 70rpm and don't shift to a higher gear, your wheel will spin slower and your watts will drop. So, like riding on a real outdoor road.

With erg mode, you can set the trainer to 200w, and no matter what you do, the trainer will give you 200w of resistance. You can shift, pedal slower or faster, it will stay at 200w. So it is not like riding outdoors...

It's not needed, but it is kind of nice...you don't have to shift, and if you program the workout ahead of time, you don't need to do anything at all...just pedal.

[Splash]

Thanks guys

Why is the k k trainer the one most seem to like for real world (as close as possible anyway) riding?

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[kramnnim]

From what I gather, they are only saying that because the wattage it takes to spin the wheel at X speed is the same on a flat road as it is on the KK trainer. To me, that doesn't mean much of anything, since roads here are not flat.

A smart trainer that is set to automatically change the resistance to mimic a route with varying slopes is much more "real" to me. They aren't very popular here, but look at the Tacx VR trainers like the Genius. The motor brake will actually push you when it is simulating a downhill. Look at the RLVs they have- HD videos of various roads all over the world. Not the same as riding outside, but it can be quite immersive.

[false_Aest]

I spent 3 years using a KK Road Machine for intervals over. Their wattage curve was programmed into my first "power meter." It worked.

I didn't care if 1 watt on the road was 1 watt on the trainer. I just wanted ···· to be reproducable.

When the KK developed a wobble I called them up. Talked to the VP directly. She overnighted me a new resistance unit + a return tag.

Who cares. That's customer service. The thing is still going strong even though I'm not.

[Splash]

Thanks boys.

Why the KK over so many other trainers though? What differentiates these trainers to the rest?

How do you program the wattage curve into a power meter??

That's A1 service form KK - well done!

How do the Smart trainers differ to all the other 'dumb' trainers from a mechanical function point of view? How do they product the better feel than the others?

I thought the erg trainers also set to automatically change the resistance to mimic a route with varying slopes - is this correct?

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[kramnnim]

How do the Smart trainers differ to all the other 'dumb' trainers from a mechanical function point of view? How do they product the better feel than the others?

I thought the erg trainers also set to automatically change the resistance to mimic a route with varying slopes - is this correct?

Splash

They have the ability to electronically adjust the resistance. The actual way they create the resistance varies from model to model...

"Smart" trainers can be used in different modes. Erg is one, sim/slope is another.

[Splash]

THanks

Cetainly a great alternative to consider!


SPlash