Quarg PM with Campy 11 Speed Groupset

[Splash]

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Campagnolo_11_speed_with_Quarq_power_meter_P382186 7/

This link above shows an option wherebyu I can still utilise my campy groupset but with a different crank..

- rotor 3d, QUARQ ELSA RS maybe

https://www.quarq.com/store/item/1740/

Not sure on the choice of chainring though...SRAM 53/39 rings, Stronglight 54/39 rings, or Stronglight 53/39 rings ????

Not wanting to use a crankset adaptor.

Your thoughts on this option and compatibility with the campy 11 speed EPS Groupset?

Another thread is below for some more options...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/power-meter-options-campagnolo-300093.html



Splash

[Joachim]

Quarq ELSA with Praxisworks chainrings. The RS is made for 9000 chainrings.

[oldpotatoe]

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Campagnolo_11_speed_with_Quarq_power_meter_P382186 7/

This link above shows an option wherebyu I can still utilise my campy groupset but with a different crank..

- rotor 3d, QUARQ ELSA RS maybe

https://www.quarq.com/store/item/1740/

Not sure on the choice of chainring though...SRAM 53/39 rings, Stronglight 54/39 rings, or Stronglight 53/39 rings ????

Not wanting to use a crankset adaptor.

Your thoughts on this option and compatibility with the campy 11 speed EPS Groupset?

Another thread is below for some more options...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/power-meter-options-campagnolo-300093.html



Splash

As long as the CRs are spaced for 11s. EPS is pretty specific about this(as is Di2).

[Splash]

Thanks guys.

Joachim - will the Praxisworks chainrings be spaced correctly for EPS 11 speed campy?


SPlash

[Joachim]

Yes, look on their website.

[Splash]

Both of your thoughts on this PM vs the others?



Splash

[audiojan]

I've been using Quarq Elsa with Q-rings with Campy 11 and my wife is riding Quarq SRAM Red with SRAM 11 chain rings on one bike and Quarq SRAM Red with Praxis rings on another Campy 11 bike. All shifts flawlessly!

The Praxis rings are absolutely awesome btw… Stiff, seems to wear extremely well and shifting is as good or better than Campy's own chain rings!

[Splash]

Thanks.

What made you choose the ELSA over the other PM's?

Why "Q-rings" over the praxis of your campy 11?

What impact will EPS have on this setup ?


Splash

[r_mutt]

i would disagree that shifting for Praxis rings are as good as Campagnolo rings. the only thing that shifts as well as Campagnolo rings are DA rings. I've been on a Quarq for the past 7 years with both Stronglight and Praxis rings and Record 11. they work fine with them. EPS too.

[Joachim]

Different experiences then. I rode two bikes back to back yesterday. First one with 9000 chainrings, second a Quarq ELSA with Praxisworks. No difference in shifting. Splash, it will work great with EPS. Just make sure your PM doesn't become an expensive crankset. You need to know/learn how a PM works so you can benefit from it. I suggest start with reading Training with a Power Meter. If after a while you feel that you do not get the full benefit, hire a coach well versed in power-based training. There are a few on the forum who would be more than willing to help you, incl myself.

[Splash]

YEs, good point Joachim.

Your thoughts on the benefits derived from the Kickr indoor trainer (with more focussed power interval trianing, etc) than on a bike relying on consistent smooth riding surfaces and a PM fitted to any bike?


SPlash

[kramnnim]

The power meter on the bike is a lot more useful than a Kickr.

[jdp211]

I've been using a Riken with Praxis rings on my Chorus and Athena groups and they've worked pretty flawlessly.

[Joachim]

YEs, good point Joachim.

Your thoughts on the benefits derived from the Kickr indoor trainer (with more focussed power interval trianing, etc) than on a bike relying on consistent smooth riding surfaces and a PM fitted to any bike?


SPlash

If the weather allows you to train outdoors, PM on the bike, riding outdoors (kicks?) beats Kickr every time.

[Splash]

Unfortuantely, I currently live (close to major city), being able to ride a chose route consistently each day is impossible. Narrow roads, road rage, dooming and bad weather also restricts the riding here siginificantly - enough not to achieve repeatable regular results in my view. This is why i was thinnking of buying a Kickr. However, when on the bike i can see great value in optimising my technique by viewing power in real time...

THoughts?


Splash

[Splash]

The power meter on the bike is a lot more useful than a Kickr.

How is it more useful?


Splash

[r_mutt]

because you can use a regular trainer with your power meter equipped bike and have power indoors. the advantage that a kickr has is that no matter what gear you are in, or how fast or slow you spin, you are going to be putting out whatever power you have dialed into the kickr. on a trainer, you have to gear up or down and spin faster or slower to get your desired power just right. the kicker doesn't allow for "cheating" or resting.

[kramnnim]

I suppose that if you only have power data when training inside, you could still benefit somewhat, but it would be much better to be able to have power data when you're outdoors... Unless you're not planning to ever make it outside. :banana:

You should be able to buy a power meter and a good "dumb" trainer for the cost of a Kickr.

Erg mode is nice, yes...maybe you could find an old Tacx Fortius/Bushido/Vortex for a fraction of the cost of a Kickr?

[sandyrs]

What city do you live near where there are no opportunities to ride under decent conditions?

[shovelhd]

Erg mode trainers are a really nice to have, but a good, accurate power meter is a necessity for me.

Tangent answered in your other thread. SRAM Red 22 SRM works fine with 9070 Di2.

[Splash]

thanks guys.

i live in Melbourne Australia.


Splash

[sandyrs]

thanks guys.

i live in Melbourne Australia.


Splash

Interesting, I thought the riding around there was pretty good but I probably have it confused with another Australian city, ignorant American that I am :)

[Splash]

I guess it is all relative to your level of risk one is prepared to take. Melbourne is good, but very busy on road with cars. Too many traffic lights. Riders get smashed with hit/runs. Most die. I woudl need to put my bike in the car and drive for a good 45mins - 1 hour before I arrive at ideal riding terrain... :-( Not something I want to do on a daily basis.


SPlash

[kramnnim]

Weird...I guess Melbourne is a large area. A friend lives in St. Kilda and rides on Yarra Blvd all the time...?

[Splash]

Unfortunately, Yarra Blvd these days is being desecrated by a low-life (who hates bike riders) placing tacks on this surface on a regular basis for a very long time now...

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/03/after-a-year-of-tacks-on-yarra-boulevard-whats-being-done-about-it/

I doubt your friend would still be riding on this road until this stops.


Splash

[kramnnim]

Yeah...he says he doesn't as often now. People suck.

[RobJ]

I am running a Quarq Elsa with Praxis and Campy Record 11 on my road bike. Absolutely no issues. Shifting is spot on. I run the same PM and rings on my TT bike with Ultegra Di2 and have the same results. So there shouldn't be an issue with EPS as others have confirmed.

I also use the Kickr indoors, but if you can't have both, get the PM on the bike and a good fluid trainer. The Kurt Kinetic is one of the better ones and has a very reliable power curve and realistic feel so you won't see huge variations over your workout. Plus the indoor training programs (TrainerRoad etc.) will pick up the power from the PM.

[Splash]

Thanks Rob.

As you use the Kickr - which has a different range/calibration of Watts output to outdoor measured watts - how do you interpret the different watts under the one training plan?

How would the CT compare to the KK trainer in terms of power curve and ease of use?

Splash

[r_mutt]

you need to put your bike with power meter on the kickr, the have 2 separate devices that can measure your PM and kickr individually. check steady state and accelerations and anything else you can think of.

[RobJ]

Thanks Rob.

As you use the Kickr - which has a different range/calibration of Watts output to outdoor measured watts - how do you interpret the different watts under the one training plan?

How would the CT compare to the KK trainer in terms of power curve and ease of use?

Splash

r_mutt has the right idea. I have found that the Kickr reports higher watts (as much as 20w) than the pm's. That is confirmed with both a Quarq Elsa and Power2Max.

So the way I typically train is using TrainerRoad on the Mac picking up the Kickr via Bluetooth and my Garmin 510 recording the power from the on-bike PM. I have my FTP set on the Garmin and set TR to the FTP recorded on the Kickr. Some recent changes with Wahoo's firmware and updates to TrainerRoad, might have these numbers in sync now, but that's another conversation. I only log the data from my Garmin, since that's the PM I will be using when out on the road.

If you don't have an on-bike PM, train indoors against the numbers on the Kickr and continue to measure yourself against those numbers. It doesn't matter if the Kickr is off slightly as long as you continue to measure your progress against the numbers it is reporting. Now if you get a bike PM, just realize that your power output will be lower theoretically than the numbers you were seeing on the Kickr.

[Splash]

Thanks for this.

Why would you need 2 separate PMs to measure the same parameters at the same time?

What benefit is setting TR to the Kickr FTP when you already have it set on the Garmin?



Splash

[RobJ]

Thanks for this.

Why would you need 2 separate PMs to measure the same parameters at the same time?

Splash

You definitely don't and probably most don't either. I have a PM on the bike and when it came time for a new trainer, I decided to get the Kickr. The reason for the Kickr is mostly for the ability to run it in ERG mode. Program in my workout and let the trainer control resistance so I can just focus on the workout. TrainerRoad has to be paired with the Kickr to be able to control it in ERG, hence TR is recording the power. I still record the power from the bike PM on my Garmin since when I am outdoors those on the same numbers I will be concerned with.

[Splash]

Thanks for that clarification. Just following up on R_Mutt' statement when it was stated to have 2 separate devices that can measure your PM and kickr individually....

Is checking steady state and accelerations a form of calibration and checking to make sure both PM's are reading similar wattage, etc...?

When TR is recording the power, is it only using the power generated by the Kickr and not from your PM?

When you program your workout in the Kickr, is it only using the power generated by the Kickr and not from your bike power meter?

For every Kickr Workout session on this same bike, you will always have 2 different performance charts based on the different power meters?

How do you then choose which performance chart best reflects your current level of fitness and performance improvement?

Do you send all of your Garmin data to somewhere like Training Peaks for further analysis?

What benefit is setting TR to the Kickr FTP when you already have it set on the Garmin?

Do you need to change your power zones to fit in with the different PM figures of your bike PM to have the same consistency on the road as on Kickr?

I read that an external PM (on bike) can now regulate the ERG Mode / resistance on the Kickr:

https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?195374-KICKR-resistance-controlled-by-external-power-meter-(e-g-Vector)




SPlash

[shovelhd]

Let me see if I can answer all of those questions in a few simple sentences. The Kickr has a power meter inside. If a rider's bike has a crank based power meter, that makes two. When analyzing power data to make training decisions, consistency is more important than accuracy, although the are both important. What you absolutely do not want is a significant variance between workouts because the two power meters do not agree. It throws off results and resultant training decisions. Most riders that have a crank based power meter and a Kickr want the crank power meter to be the meter of record. That way, power is consistently recorded by the same meter whether on the trainer or outdoors. The trick comes in when the rider wants to use a software program such as trainerroad or Zwift or whatever, and have the crank based power meter interact with the software to control the smart trainer. For example, the program has the rider going up a hill, so you would want the crank based power meter recording the power while the software tells the trainer to increase the resistance. Kickr has had some challenges with this but seems to have it under control.

[RobJ]

Let me see if I can answer all of those questions in a few simple sentences. The Kickr has a power meter inside. If a rider's bike has a crank based power meter, that makes two. When analyzing power data to make training decisions, consistency is more important than accuracy, although the are both important. What you absolutely do not want is a significant variance between workouts because the two power meters do not agree. It throws off results and resultant training decisions. Most riders that have a crank based power meter and a Kickr want the crank power meter to be the meter of record. That way, power is consistently recorded by the same meter whether on the trainer or outdoors. The trick comes in when the rider wants to use a software program such as trainerroad or Zwift or whatever, and have the crank based power meter interact with the software to control the smart trainer. For example, the program has the rider going up a hill, so you would want the crank based power meter recording the power while the software tells the trainer to increase the resistance. Kickr has had some challenges with this but seems to have it under control.

Shovelhd pretty much nailed it.

I setup my workouts in TrainerRoad. TrainerRoad then tells the Kickr what do (i.e. 20min Sweetspot interval so keep the wattage constant at X watts). As the workout progresses, my Garmin 510 is recording the power from the crank-based PM. The only thing I record is the data from the Garmin and that goes up to TrainingPeaks (via Garmin Connect, see response on your other thread).

As you referenced, the issue in the past was that you tell the Kickr hold at 250 watts, but due to some issues with the Kickr, your crank PM reads about 230. They have updated the firmware so now the Kickr can stay in sync wattage-wise with your crank PM.

[Splash]

Thanks people.

Is the Kickr PM ever utilised when a crank based PM is operating? If so, how and when?

Are your training power zones only governed by the crank based PM?

Does your crank based PM regulate the resistance in the Kickr in ERGO Mode?

What is the trigger for the TR software to 'talk' to the trainer to increase the resistance?

Splash

[r_mutt]

Thanks for that clarification. Just following up on R_Mutt' statement when it was stated to have 2 separate devices that can measure your PM and kickr individually....

Is checking steady state and accelerations a form of calibration and checking to make sure both PM's are reading similar wattage, etc...?


SPlash

indeed - my suggestion wasn't for you to run 2 separate PM's and 2 devices to read them while training- but merely to suggest that you figure out what the differences between your kickr and on-bike PM so you can be consistent when alternating training outside and inside.

[shovelhd]

Thanks people.

Is the Kickr PM ever utilised when a crank based PM is operating? If so, how and when?

Are your training power zones only governed by the crank based PM?

Does your crank based PM regulate the resistance in the Kickr in ERGO Mode?

What is the trigger for the TR software to 'talk' to the trainer to increase the resistance?

Splash

No, yes, yes, ANT+

[Splash]

Thanks guys for clearing all that up for me.

I understand it all now... :-)


SPlash

[briantfantana]

+1 om Praxis 11 speed rings for Campy

[shovelhd]

Thanks guys for clearing all that up for me.

I understand it all now... :-)


SPlash

There is a lot to learn if you want to dive into the deep end. You don't have to drink from a firehouse though. Do your research. Ask specific questions. Make a decision. Move onto the next level. Think iteratively.

[Splash]

will do. :-)

splash

[Splash]

+1 om Praxis 11 speed rings for Campy

how would this impact on the classical campy/bianchi look?

and, your thought on the impact to EPS?

Splash

[Splash]

Quarq ELSA with Praxisworks chainrings. The RS is made for 9000 chainrings.

Hi Joachim,

I cannot see the ELSA advertised anywhere - even on the Quarq website:

http://www.quarq.com/pages/getting-started/choosing-power-meter


All i see is ELSA R and RS, etc...

???
SPlash

[Joachim]

Hi Joachim,

I cannot see the ELSA advertised anywhere - even on the Quarq website:

http://www.quarq.com/pages/getting-started/choosing-power-meter


All i see is ELSA R and RS, etc...

???
SPlash

It's the ELSA R. Used to be called just the ELSA before the ELSA RS came in.