Stiff Wheelset

[Splash]

Hi team,

Over a long distance road cycling event (say 150km), what is more advantageous - a stiffer wheel set or a more aerodynamic wheelset - assuming all other things and rider, terrain, etc.. is the same?


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[Cicli]

To be honest, properly sized tires inflated to the proper pressure.
I dont buy the "aero" hooplah, so I would go with...........

[ergott]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Splash]

Thanks guys.

Tihsepa - what do i know what the proper sized I need?

Ditto for proper tire pressure?

Ergott. When does a stiff wheel set become useful?


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[rnhood]

Stiff wheels are good for sprinting and racing. They might help when climbing, although the advantage is probably slight. Often with cycling, being comfortable is the prime driver so that should be the focus on the parts or components which affect comfort. 25mm tires tend to make for a nice riding environment since pressures can be less thus increasing comfort, and they don't compromise on performance to any degree. If you travel rougher roads then even 28's can be considered. I have yet to be beat by someone with aero wheels, that can't beat me on standard box rims so I don't put aero as high priority, though depending on your riding environment or venue and speed, there can be an advantage even if slight. All this imho of course.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi team,

Over a long distance road cycling event (say 150km), what is more advantageous - a stiffer wheel set or a more aerodynamic wheelset - assuming all other things and rider, terrain, etc.. is the same?


Splash

Yes with bigg-ish tires w/o a ton of PSI in them.

[Splash]

rnhood -

- when is aware more beneficial over stiff wheels?

- where would you classify the enve SMS 6.7's with a CK45 hub (in the more stiff or more aero category)?

Oldpotatoe
which wheel set are you referring to - more stiff or more aero?


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[oldpotatoe]

rnhood -

- when is aware more beneficial over stiff wheels?

- where would you classify the enve SMS 6.7's with a CK45 hub (in the more stiff or more aero category)?

Oldpotatoe
which wheel set are you referring to - more stiff or more aero?


Splash

Both, as Mr Ergott mentioned, they are not mutually exclusive. Stiff means mostly carbon, light, expensive, and aero. Add some good tubulars, like Vittoria or Veloflex at 25mm width and you have a great wheelset for that 150k ride.

The wheels you mention would fit both bills. They are aero, stiff....and expensive. Not particularly light as they are clinchers but aero and stiff as wheels go because they are carbon. Made for tri-people. Rolling courses, aero, not light but a carbon wheelset that is 400 grams lighter in the grand scheme of things, won't make that much difference on a say, 170 pound rider, 16 pound bike, bike and rider combo(85,000 grams).

Maybe more info...looking to buy some wheels, borrow some wheels, racing, riding, 150k..????

[stephenmarklay]

Yes with bigg-ish tires w/o a ton of PSI in them.

It amazes me how much better I feel after say 75 miles on 28s with 80-90 pounds. It makes things a lot more enjoyable.

[Splash]

Thanks OP - I run the tubulars in this wheel set.

Best ways to manage these wheels down a step decent (in dry and wet)?


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[ergott]

Stiffness in a wheel is always an asset. To clarify, this discussion is usually about lateral stiffness meaning how much the rim will deflect side to side.

Here's a good read.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunking_Wheel_Stiffness_3449.html

What is your concern with this long ride? Is it performance or comfort (or both)?

For comfort, use what you already have and then consider what tires and pressure you use. They should be appropriate for the conditions of the road and your weight.

For performance, the difference between the most aero wheels and a set of 32/32 traditional wheels will only be a in the order of minutes over that distance. It's a cumulative advantage, but not something that makes a huge difference that you can perceive while riding. The most noticeable difference is in the noise carbon wheels make. They have a certain roar to them that is a bit of a kick in the pants type of motivation!

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks OP - I run the tubulars in this wheel set.

Best ways to manage these wheels down a step decent (in dry and wet)?


Splash

Have good brake blocks and brake hard, then let off, or don't brake at all..don't drag/heat up brakes/rims. I have seen more than a few carbon wheels warp because of this.

[ergott]

I'm replying to your PM here since it's worth bring to the discussion.

The 6.7s to Chris King R45s are pretty stiff laterally. If you are a really big rider I would use a heavier gauge spoke for the rear wheel, but there's not much else that you can improve. Keep in mind the wheels have a lower spoke count, but they also have a very tall profile. That means the spoke angles leaving the hub towards the rim are larger than they would be if the rim was a standard box shape like the Open Pro. Imagine trying to brace a pole from right next to it compared to walking further away. You have more leverage with the increased angle.

How much do you weigh?

[Splash]

Ergott - I am totally fine with these wheels over this distance and even at 210kms rides.

I am just a bit concerned at the comments raised by my LBS today (who actually makes up wheel sets for Cadel Evans and other successful Australian bike riders) who said that i should not be riding these wheel sets unless I was doing shorter road sprints / racing / TT's only, and said they were overkill and not very stiff compared to others (like the HED he said). He said they were heavier and were more aero than anything else.....

Just thought I would share these thoughts and hence I ask you good folk for your opinions...

I guess I just need some re-assurance that I have bought the right rims... :-)

And, I'll get the wheels checked for trueness and spoke tensions..


I weigh 88kg (194lbs).


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[ergott]

You can call up Enve and air your concerns, but I think the wheels aren't going to hold you back. They are very purpose built race wheels. Are you concerned with overall time?

[Splash]

Thanks Ergott.

[Avincent52]

Are you surprised that the LBS is criticizing wheels that you didn't buy there?
Some of it may be just a defense of their own products and their own philosophies behind them.
And some of it may be planting a seed that ultimately sees you buying a set of nice, expensive wheels from them.

It seems to be working.

Do you smile when you're riding the bike with these wheels?
Then I wouldn't worry.
If you're not going fast enough, an investment in training is likely to pay bigger dividends than an investment in new wheels whatever their stiffness or profile.

[happycampyer]

Wheels like the Enve 6.7's or Zipp 808's are great in the right conditions, but every wheelset has trade-offs. On a windy, gusty day, they may be harder to control than wheels with a lower profile. And while braking surfaces on carbon wheels, and the composition of brake blocks for those wheels, have improved considerably over the years (and the Enves are state-of-the-art), on a rainy day you might prefer the confidence of an aluminum rim when braking.

You might want to consider having a "backup" set of wheels to switch to in case the conditions on the day of the event are not optimal for your 6.7's.

[peteskipslegday]

I've always been under the impression aero is such a marginal benefit for the lesser mortals that aren't pro. I like H Plus Son's stuff because they're stiff and I can really press into the front wheels on climbs standing and they hold up. Heard the HED belgium wheelset is comparable and stiff.

[Hermes_Alex]

Aerodynamics are really a fairly big thing to consider, regardless of ability. There was that old Roues Artisanales chart (which by now is woefully out of date) basically plotting average drag in terms of watts of pedaling power absorbed, which I always liked when it came to telling people what aerodynamics meant in a practical sense.

[Splash]

Thanks guys.

Lots of food for thought. Yes, I do smile when I ride this Wheelset and yes I did suspect a 'seller's point of view' motive when I was told that buy the LBS...but it is good that I am thinking about it and sharing it with you guys.

I love the ENVE wheelset, but I just wonder how they would perform (with all other things being equal) against a lower / stiffer profile rim for fast acceleration and lighter weight (for breakaways, etc) and climbing steep inclines?

Also, when I am riding on the road for training or events - I very rarely see deeper dish wheel rims used by the hundreds of other riders I see riding each day....


Thoughts?

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[Hermes_Alex]

Thanks guys.

Lots of food for thought. Yes, I do smile when I ride this Wheelset and yes I did suspect a 'seller's point of view' motive when I was told that buy the LBS...but it is good that I am thinking about it and sharing it with you guys.

I love the ENVE wheelset, but I just wonder how they would perform (with all other things being equal) against a lower / stiffer profile rim for fast acceleration and lighter weight (for breakaways, etc) and climbing steep inclines?

Also, when I am riding on the road for training or events - I very rarely see deeper dish wheel rims used by the hundreds of other riders I see riding each day....


Thoughts?

Splash

A lower profile wheelset would be lighter and better suited for steep inclines. It would not be any stiffer than your existing set, and have a negligible effect on acceleration. The principal tradeoff you're making is weight for aerodynamics and vice versa, you want to be aerodynamic in a breakaway more than anything.

[Splash]

Interesting - thanks.

Out of curiosity, why is it more important to be aerodynamic than anything else for breakaways?


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[benb]

Get an aero helmet.. hasn't that (and positioning) been shown to be even more advantageous than the wheels?

[Mark McM]

Interesting - thanks.

Out of curiosity, why is it more important to be aerodynamic than anything else for breakaways?


Splash

The thinking goes this way: At racing speeds, aerodynamic drag is the biggest drag force on the rider. When riding solo (as when breaking way), aerodynamic drag can be 85-90% of the total drag on the rider (the rest being rolling resistance and mechanical losses). When riding in a pack, drafting can reduce aerodynamic drag (by up to 30%), so aerodynamics is not as important when in a pack vs. breaking away.

[Splash]

Thanks!

[happycampyer]

Bear in mind that, while aerodynamics represents the largest percentage of the overall drag on a cyclist, the cyclist's body represents the largest percentage of aerodynamic drag (don't recall the approx %, but it's high). So when you are riding on the tops or hoods, the aerodynamic drag your body presents will significantly negate the aerodynamic benefit that the wheels produce.

The reason why you don't see deep section wheels everyday is that imo more often people view these wheels as "event" wheels—time trials, triathlons, road races (esp with a sprint finish), etc. A lot of folks I know who own deep section wheels don't train on them, but rather train on lower profile wheels. If they ride carbon wheels as everyday/training wheels, they often opt for a medium profile wheel (e.g., Enve SES 3.4 or now 4.5; Zipp 303 or 404; etc.). These wheels are a bit more versatile in terms of the conditions in which they can be ridden.

But by all means, if you like the way they ride and you aren't bothered by crosswinds, etc. there's no reason why you can't ride 6.7's everyday.

[carpediemracing]

A few thoughts from someone that has ridden various height wheels in various conditions, and sometimes while weighing in the OP's range.

- A stiffer front wheel, at least laterally, makes a huge difference in how a wheel handles in a turn. That's not a big deal when going in a straight line but I learned a bit quickly that when doing multiple switchbacks on a long descent that a laterally stiff wheel really, really helps. If your long ride has some hard turns, especially on descents, I'd consider front wheel stiffness.

For the rear I never felt it as critical. I'd ride some pretty flexible wheels out back and not worry much about it.

- I find that at 45-50 mph I start getting uneasy on taller front wheels (46, 58, 60mm). None of those are U-shaped, but I've gotten blown around on my shortest U shaped front wheel, a 75mm, at much lower speeds. When I think I'l be doing some faster descents I prefer to have the shortest height front wheel possible. This way I won't get too scared when descending at, say, 50 mph and an 18 wheeler passes me going 65 mph about 5-10 feet away. I define my HED Bastognes (24mm height?) as short. At my heaviest weight (215 lbs, 5'7") I descended like an asteroid. I could use an aero wheel but I'd have to hold the drops to feel secure and that was less aero so I didn't max out at a higher top speed. With a non-aero front wheel I could really tuck and gain a lot of speed.

If your long ride doesn't have any kind of straight extended 45-50+ mph descents (like most of the descents are measured in quarter miles or they have a ton of turns in them so you have to be on the drops anyway) then this isn't an issue. Fit a tall front wheel.

- I find I can almost always use a tall rear wheel, and in fact I can't think of a situation where I'd remove one to use a shorter one. My primary rear training wheel is a 90mm Jet and my primary rear racing wheel is a 90mm Stinger. Taller rear wheels tend to stabilize the bike, sort of like a rudder. They sail very nicely in cross-tailwinds, which is when I seem to get the most benefit from aero wheels. When I do longer rides/races I'll fit a light box section front wheel and the most aero rear wheel I have. In the past it was a TriSpoke, a Zipp 440 (pre-404), or even a full on disk wheel.

A tall rear wheel might slow you down a touch but the reality is that the rider is what's holding the bike back, not the other way around. I went and did Palomar Mountain (a switchback-laden climb/descent) at 190 lbs and 155 lbs, with the same SRM powermeter. I climbed the mountain a few minutes faster and using a few less watts at 155 lbs but it wasn't very significant. I thought I'd save 20-30 minutes off my 2 hour time. It was more like 5-10 minutes. My friend, who climbs much better than me, still had to wait 20-30 minutes for me at the top. Having a slightly heavier rear wheel won't really affect me much because at my slightly-over-200w FTP I can't climb much harder than 180w for the entire climb. That's crawling pace for 2 hours and that's what limits me, not my equipment.