How does spoke count impact a wheel's ride/performance?

[Climb01742]

Could you help me understand the relationship between spoke count and wheel performance? If we assume a constant rider weight (say 160) how will fewer or more spokes impact how a wheel rides? Or how well it holds up? Please school me. Thanks very much.;)

[Cicli]

Not a pro but, more spokes allows a lower part of the load to be carried by each spoke. This allows a lower spoke tension and will yield a better ride. It will also add to durability and the ability to keep on keepin on with a broken spoke. There will be a smaller section of the rim running with no support if you lose a spoke.
I am of the opinion that all wheels should have a minimum of 28 spokes so put me in the not cool, less aero camp.

[ergott]

I wouldn't put spoke tension and ride quality in the equation.

Let's assume using the same spoke gauge, rim and hub so the only difference is the amount of spokes used.

More spokes means greater lateral stiffness. More spokes means the wheels can handle a greater load in the form of a heavier rider/bike/load and/or more powerful rider before any spokes go slack and lost the ability to support the wheel.

More spokes also increases likelihood that a wheel which suffers a broken spoke can continue to be ridden the rest of the ride.

Today's modern rims are much stiffer than in the past. They can be safely built up with fewer spokes and still have a wheel that performs well. It's not uncommon for a low spoke count wheel to be durable and trouble free for the life of the rim. It really depends on the rider.

[eddief]

Is it an urban myth or does number spokes have an effect on comfort? Can mere mortals tell the difference when tires are in the equation. Your opinion?

I wouldn't put spoke tension and ride quality in the equation.

Let's assume using the same spoke gauge, rim and hub so the only difference is the amount of spokes used.

More spokes means greater lateral stiffness. More spokes means the wheels can handle a greater load in the form of a heavier rider/bike/load and/or more powerful rider before any spokes go slack and lost the ability to support the wheel.

More spokes also increases likelihood that a wheel which suffers a broken spoke can continue to be ridden the rest of the ride.

Today's modern rims are much stiffer than in the past. They can be safely built up with fewer spokes and still have a wheel that performs well. It's not uncommon for a low spoke count wheel to be durable and trouble free for the life of the rim. It really depends on the rider.

[fuzzalow]

In a lifetime of cycling, I have yet to purchase or use a factory pre-built wheel. Every wheel I have ever ridden, save my first bike or the wheels on my Brompton, has been built by me. So I have no experience with low spoke count modern wheels. But that won't stop me from commenting here about them.

A spoked wheel is a tensioned device that exists with the tension that imparts the structural integrity to the wheel. That tension furthermore is dispersed as an equilibration of tension forces across the entire structure. As such, to my thinking pertaining to many physical structures in real life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Meaning the trade off between low or higher spoke count requires an offset to other parts of the structure to carry the loading. Lower spoke count shifts the requirements of structural integrity to the rim and vice versa to higher counts of spoking picking up more of the structural burden from the rim.

Why lower spoke counts are fashionable has more to do with the marketing hyping the benefits of factory prebuilt wheels. From a performance standpoint, moving additional mass outwards to the rim in compromise for lower spoke count is a bad trade off.

Carbon or aluminum rims make no difference, the same physics apply. IMO the only game changer was the ADA or Lightweight category of autoclaved structured wheel that locks the entire wheel as, in essence, a singular epoxy-resin structure.

The other downside to me is the loss of wheel building as a skill set to most LBSes. That diminished aspects in the service capacity of the bike shop and emphasized a lower value function as a simple retailer of products.

[ergott]

Is it an urban myth or does number spokes have an effect on comfort? Can mere mortals tell the difference when tires are in the equation. Your opinion?

Zipp has shown somewhere that there is some sidewall flex in their rims that effects ride and handling. There's not a lot of published information about this, but other rims with a similar shape can potentially share this effect. In general, the sidewalls of carbon rims are rather thin compared to the spoke bed and tire bed. There are people that have anecdotally claimed their tall profile wheels like 404s and Enve Smart wheels have a better ride and I think this might be the reason. I don't have the resources to prove this myself.

Spoke count won't have a perceivable effect on ride since the vertical compliance of a wheel is many magnitudes smaller than the deflection of a tire. Fact is, you don't want your rim deflecting vertically (other than the above stated). That would mean that the spokes will go slack and no longer support the wheel. The difference between a fully tensioned spoke and one that's slack is only a few turns of the nipple. That's less than a 1mm of travel before the spoke is slack. Better to increase tire size and adjust tire pressure accordingly if ride quality is your goal.

Take a look at this video of super slomo Paris Roubaix (particularly 2:06). You will see a pair of spokes go completely slack (wobble side to side) when the wheel hits a cobble. It happens long before the tire bottoms out. That's not something you want to see happen on a regular basis if long term durability is a must. High spoke count doesn't necessarily mean stronger and more durable. You have to look at all the components of the wheel.

Also, that video is from 2011 and the tire is probably a 25mm. More and more pros are using 28-30mm tires for that race. That right there will help out.

There's a setting for watching the video at quarter speed for really slow motion. Just skip to 2:05 and watch the magic. Cool video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PadVQq53h3I

[Lovetoclimb]

To throw in another factor, assuming the same rims, spokes, hubs, tires, etc: how does lacing pattern factor in? And to narrow it even further, assuming same two wheels 28 holes laced 2x, but one with pulling spokes on the outside of the flange, the other with pulling spokes on the inside of the flange ....

I ask because I have heard much debate over this recently.

[ergott]

Splitting hairs, but lateral stiffness is a bit more with radial heads in, then a crossed pattern, then radial heads out. I still do most front wheels with a low spoke count radial since again the difference is small and it's a little more aero. Some people prefer the look of a crossed pattern and I'm okay with that. For rear wheels I prefer a crossed pattern on both sides since it will transmit torque better. Again it's splitting hairs, but the left side does contribute to torque albeit less than the right side. Seems from my experience that a crossed pattern on the left side will stay true longer than a radial pattern.

The difference between heads in pulling and heads out pulling just isn't there. I've never seen any conclusive evidence to support one pattern over the other, just speculation.

[DHallerman]

It really depends on the rider.

I would think, considering the damaged condition of many roads in my general area, that it also really depends on the surface.

I mean, sometimes you can avoid, often avoid, but when there are cars whizzing by and you have to stay to the right, there are some truly battered and hole-ly road conditions you have to go through and on and sometimes into.

Dave, who would think that road-condition factor needs to be factored in to wheel-spoke-count choices since it doesn't seem like the state or local entities have enough money to repair these roads

[Exonerv]

I have a set of Team Ti Cane Creek Volos that utilize a higher spoke tension on the titanium spokes than the standard CC Volos XL. To me, the ti spokes with higher tension seem to transmit more shock. I'm running 25 mm GP 4000's on each set. Is there any correlation between high tension spokes and rougher ride?

[bridgestone1]

Could you help me understand the relationship between spoke count and wheel performance? If we assume a constant rider weight (say 160) how will fewer or more spokes impact how a wheel rides? Or how well it holds up? Please school me. Thanks very much.;)

What I've noticed is a difference in performance. More spokes, especially round spokes as opposed to bladed, mean more wind drag. My 32 spoke wheel set makes me work harder (not a bad thing, really) than my Bontrager selects with only 20 spokes. Bladed spokes, no matter the spoke count, are a lot more aerodynamic than the round kind.

[carpediemracing]

All subjective since I haven't done any quantifiable, repeatable tests. However I am a sort of wheel nut and at one point had, in my wheel inventory, something like 20 sets of wheels I built just for myself.

I always thought spoke count affected wheel speed at all speeds. More spokes feels slower. My extreme examples are 16 spoke Ventos and Zipp 440s. On the other end I've used 36 spoke rims, various non-aero ones, and 40 and 48H touring wheels.

More spokes means I can usually reduce tension, sometimes substantially, so the wheels are softer. Lower tension also means more reliability in terms of breaking spokes.

I have never been able to tell the difference between outside spokes pulling or pushing (direction of wind-up). However I prefer to have the pulling spokes to the outside, just my thing.

With 28 spoke wheels, I had a lot of them, with a three personal sets of Campy NR hubs and Campy Record Crono rims (as well as maybe 6-8 more that I built for others). I experimented with radial, x2, or x3 up front (prefer x3), and in the back I went toward x3 after trying x2 and x3. It may have been spoke availability or inventory for the rear, but I prefer x3 for 28H. Longer spokes, more elasticity, more comfortable. Except when they got physically ripped out of the wheel I never broke a spoke in those wheels. I still have a pair now.

I can't stand narrow flange spacing hubs, like Mavic's first hub. I rebuilt that hub so many times - it was one of the few that were approved for bladed spoke use so I wanted to make it work. The narrow flange spacing made the wheel horrible out of the saddle. I used aero, bladed, straight, and butted spokes, a variety of rims. I still have that hub, no idea what to do with it, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I rarely (never?) noticed a wheel being super stiff or comfortable. It was almost always the tires or the bike (specifically the fork, bars, stem).

I do notice when a wheel isn't laterally stiff because it's disconcerting to me to have the bike move around even more than I move it when out of the saddle.

I forgot about the Reynolds wheels, 16 spoke fronts. I broke a spoke in a race (Prospect Park (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lgRKWEdG18), NY) with a maybe 45 mph descent, close to 50 if pushing it, enough that a spectator that got hit by a racer died once. Anyway I gingerly rode the 15 spoke front wheel around, decided it was okay, and placed in the field sprint. I broke a spoke in a 20 spoke rear wheel, did a 2.5 hour group ride anyway, it was okay, just noisy.

Typical angle for me, not much but it's enough to feel flexy wheels up front. In the rear lateral stiffness is not as much a concern for me.
https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/549423_10153420715393824_1335971388102442252_n.jpg ?oh=87f46e884b18e0af7b8fd3ebba0c25a7&oe=5605007B

[bigbill]

I've got a set of Zondas that I don't think will ever die. They are stiff, I never go smaller than 25mm tires on them. I've got several sets of handbuilts with Open Pros, CPX33's, CPX30's, Open Sport, and Pacenti. They're all 32H 3X in the rear, 2X in the front. They all ride about the same except for the Pacenti due to the changed tire profile from the wide rim.

[oldpotatoe]

Could you help me understand the relationship between spoke count and wheel performance? If we assume a constant rider weight (say 160) how will fewer or more spokes impact how a wheel rides? Or how well it holds up? Please school me. Thanks very much.;)

Mr Ergott has summed it up very nicely but since reliability was mentioned. All things being equal, hub, rim, spoke type and rider..more spokes=more reliable wheel. I don't get those who talk about this frame/fork/pedal/tire, etc being reliable, then say, 28/24/20h wheel is 'just strong enough'. Great big guys that have builders commit that '3 strikes you are out' mistake..light rim, thin spokes, not enough spokes. trying to save 400 grams, when their bike/rider 'package' is 100,000+ grams. THEN ask the builder why they didn't build it 'better'. Should be, 'why didn't the builder design it better'.

Yes, yes, a buck-thiry-five rider doesn't need a 32/36h, heavy rim, wheelset but that 250 pound guy shouldn't be riding a 20/24, light rim, thin spokes, wheel either and then wonder why the things never stay true..

mini-rant out by this admittedly conservative wheelbuilder.

[ergott]

More spokes means I can usually reduce tension, sometimes substantially, so the wheels are softer. Lower tension also means more reliability in terms of breaking spokes.


The only way the wheel is softer is if the spokes go slack and are no longer supporting a rim. Higher tension does not equal more stiffness.

[OtayBW]

What is the likelihood of being able to limp in on a (e.g., Hed Ardennes) 18-spoke, radially-laced wheel in the event of a broken spoke? I'm 160 lb and have got a ton of miles on two sets of these without even needing a truing, but I always wondered about being 60 mi out potentially with a broken spoke on one of these things. Thx.

[Bob Ross]

I broke a spoke in a race (Prospect Park (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lgRKWEdG18), NY) with a maybe 45 mph descent

There's a descent in Prospect Park?




:)

[fuzzalow]

The difference between heads in pulling and heads out pulling just isn't there. I've never seen any conclusive evidence to support one pattern over the other, just speculation.

This is a unsubstantiated claim and notably vague in what is being addressed as far as what structural characteristics of the wheel are NOT effected by a pulling heads in or pulling heads out spoking pattern. There is a theoretical grounding as to why the spoking pattern makes a difference in wheel design. The structural characteristics, tradeoffs and wheel strength attributes are all what result from the choices made in the design of the wheel. A wheel is, after all, a simple manifestation of structural engineering. To blow this off as "speculation" is bankrupt reasoning.

In fairness, the build quality of the wheel supersedes some degree of wheel design, faulty or otherwise. But the theory still exists and underlies what was designed and built. The fact that you have not seen "conclusive evidence" is immaterial and irrelevant.

We have had this same debate before on this forum about this very topic. I respond here not to change you thinking on this as that is solely your own purview. But I should not let something as vague as this refutation go unchallenged as far as at least noting a response. So in the cause of academic rigor, here is the rebuttal to your earlier statement for the public record.

[oldpotatoe]

This is a unsubstantiated claim and notably vague in what is being addressed as far as what structural characteristics of the wheel are NOT effected by a pulling heads in or pulling heads out spoking pattern. There is a theoretical grounding as to why the spoking pattern makes a difference in wheel design. The structural characteristics, tradeoffs and wheel strength attributes are all what result from the choices made in the design of the wheel. A wheel is, after all, a simple manifestation of structural engineering. To blow this off as "speculation" is bankrupt reasoning.

In fairness, the build quality of the wheel supersedes some degree of wheel design, faulty or otherwise. But the theory still exists and underlies what was designed and built. The fact that you have not seen "conclusive evidence" is immaterial and irrelevant.

We have had this same debate before on this forum about this very topic. I respond here not to change you thinking on this as that is solely your own purview. But I should not let something as vague as this refutation go unchallenged as far as at least noting a response. So in the cause of academic rigor, here is the rebuttal to your earlier statement for the public record.

Wow..I feel like I'm in Biology 101 again...

In my experience, I used to build Campagnolo cassette hubs outside pulling, shimano inside pulling..it really doesn't make any difference in wheel reliability, IME professor. I now only do inside pulling on disc hubs.

I also used to do 32h, crossed spokes at seam and value hole, rather than parallel there but that doesn't mean anything either. I had a knucklehead at a well known mailorder place tell me 32h was more reliable than 36h, all else being equal because there are less sets of parallel spokes too(8 vs 9). (Actually they just couldn't find 36h hubs and rims)

[ergott]

So in the cause of academic rigor, here is the rebuttal to your earlier statement for the public record.

My memory is clearly worse than yours as I don't remember our previous discussion on heads in or out for pulling.

Please share your thoughts on the difference or at least link me to where you previously did.

[fuzzalow]

Wow..I feel like I'm in Biology 101 again...

In my experience, I used to build Campagnolo cassette hubs outside pulling, shimano inside pulling..it really doesn't make any difference in wheel reliability, IME professor. I now only do inside pulling on disc hubs.

I also used to do 32h, crossed spokes at seam and value hole, rather than parallel there but that doesn't mean anything either. I had a knucklehead at a well known mailorder place tell me 32h was more reliable than 36h, all else being equal because there are less sets of parallel spokes too(8 vs 9). (Actually they just couldn't find 36h hubs and rims)

I have no need or desire to cross swords with you oldpotatoe. I don't take umbrage to the ad hominem of mocking me as "professor".

You seem to take priority to anecdotal evidence and proof as to the validity and the soundness of the results achieved in wheel building. My approach is also that but with that also being layered upon and grounded by sound principles.

Hey, whatever works for you. But note that there is an inherent contradiction in stressing the value and knowledge of a wheel builder's experience and design expertise in making a custom wheel set to a client's needs. And then making short shrift, or dismissive, of the actual knowledge underlying the way a builder/professor will.would design and build the wheel.

[oldpotatoe]

My memory is clearly worse than yours as I don't remember our previous discussion on heads in or out for pulling.

Please share your thoughts on the difference or at least link me to where you previously did.

Ahhhh, no.....ahhhhh...

Anyway-love him or hate him, I had a 'spirited' discussion on this with the late and great Jobst Brandt over on the rec.bikes.tech forum, many moons ago..and he also said, 'no, it really doesn't matter'...

But, here we go. I am always impressed by somebody that can type so well also..

[fuzzalow]

My memory is clearly worse than yours as I don't remember our previous discussion on heads in or out for pulling.

Please share your thoughts on the difference or at least link me to where you previously did.

No, you look it up. If I misremembered then I'll gladly retract my statement as aimed at you. But I stand by the the core of what I was posting about.

[oldpotatoe]

I have no need or desire to cross swords with you oldpotatoe. I don't take umbrage to the ad hominem of mocking me as "professor".

You seem to take priority to anecdotal evidence and proof as to the validity and the soundness of the results achieved in wheel building. My approach is also that but with that also being layered upon and grounded by sound principles.

Hey, whatever works for you. But note that there is an inherent contradiction in stressing the value and knowledge of a wheel builder's experience and design expertise in making a custom wheel set to a client's needs. And then making short shrift, or dismissive, of the actual knowledge underlying the way a builder/professor will.would design and build the wheel.

geeez, lighten up, about bicycle wheels afterall. No swords, not even spokes at 10 paces.

Hey, OK....inside or outside pulling??? I'll stick to outside pulling...and dry BB spindles...

[ergott]

I posted my statement. You posted that I was wrong and now you refuse to tell me why?

Great discussing this with you.

[OtayBW]

If you all are pausing in your conversation, I'd like to raise my question once again if you don't mind: How badly hobbled will an 18-spoke wheel be with a busted spoke?
Any general thoughts appreciated.

[ergott]

If you all are pausing in your conversation, I'd like to raise my question once again if you don't mind: How badly hobbled will an 18-spoke wheel be with a busted spoke?
Any general thoughts appreciated.

Sorry. Depending on your brakes and how they are set up it's likely you won't be able to ride it the rest of the way.

Anyone experience otherwise?

[OtayBW]

Thanks for the response. I run standard Campy Record or SR caliper brakes. If the 18-spoke is not rideable, what do you think might be a reasonable kind of build for both lightweight while still having a measure of robustness to allow me to hobble in if necessary?

[weisan]

Let me put to rest any and every questions, personal anecdotes, theories, proven or not...

This is the standard bearer:

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/20000/nahled/wooden-wheel-2961298297486uVR.jpg

[Exonerv]

12 Spokes?! That'll never carry any weight!

[ergott]

Thanks for the response. I run standard Campy Record or SR caliper brakes. If the 18-spoke is not rideable, what do you think might be a reasonable kind of build for both lightweight while still having a measure of robustness to allow me to hobble in if necessary?

I would say that a 24 spoke front remains pretty rideable with one missing spoke. I guess a project that needs to be done is to experiment with detensioning one spoke from a few wheel builds and measuring how far the rim deflects. The amount of deflection will depend on spoke count, gauge, and also rim stiffness. The Hed rim is pretty stiff.

If you have a local wheel builder there they could temporarily detension a spoke from the wheel in question and measure. It wouldn't cause any long term damage to see.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for the response. I run standard Campy Record or SR caliper brakes. If the 18-spoke is not rideable, what do you think might be a reasonable kind of build for both lightweight while still having a measure of robustness to allow me to hobble in if necessary?

The way to a light wheel is a light rim and hub and adequate spokes to support that lightness. Low spoke count wheels are often-subtract 12-14 spokes(18h-20h-weight savings 3 or so ounces-80-90 grams) then add 150 grams to the rim to make it reliable but marketeers love it.

Find a 350 gram rim, build with 32 spokes and the wheel will be light and reliable. And probably rideable if ha break ya spoke.

[Ralph]

I don't have any experience with using a rim that can be build up with a big variation in spoke numbers. In the past, I mostly rode 32 hole Record hubs with popular priced rims of the era with 32 spokes. Ride was great, (with good tires) as we all know with that combination.

But currently mostly riding some latest version Campy Zonda's with 16 spoke front radial, and rear (wider deeper stronger rim than front) with 2X 14 spokes on drive side rear, and 7 radial on non drive side. And I think these wheels ride much stiffer than my 32's. I think the rims are very heavy and very strong (although the wheel set is 1550 grams needing no rim strip). I'm also of the opinion, after talking with owners of similar wheels (Campy and Shimano), I could break a spoke, and still ride it home fine....the rims are that strong (I weigh 155). I really like the wheels, but.....I think my 32's (on same tires as my Zonda's) ride better....meaning softer....maybe better for centuries. Not that any of this opinion matters.

[fuzzalow]

This is a discussion and there was certainly no intent on my part to pick a fight with anyone or or about anything. My goodness me, the responses from oldpotatoe and ergott were personal or evasive in nature, respectively. All completely away from the specific points I raised in the topic at hand.

I take no offense. I recognize these blokes as good guys in this forum so the personal stuff I can ignore.

geeez, lighten up, about bicycle wheels afterall. No swords, not even spokes at 10 paces.

No problem. "Lighten up" in this conversation doesn't apply to me. I am as unfazed by this as can be. I go by the facts as I know them until I need to amend them based on something better.

I posted my statement. You posted that I was wrong and now you refuse to tell me why?

Great discussing this with you.

No, you are trying to frame the discussion to be what you want. I have said this before about you when we talk: I will not chase you around the maypole to talk about topics. Search on the word "maypole" and I am sure it will be used by me so you can find the thread.

I gave you a reasonable rebuttal. Your tactic to dumb down the discussion in insisting I answer your questions to your satisfaction is not how I converse. I'll discuss as equals if you bring your thoughts to the table, if you are able, and we will butt heads over the ideas. Right now all I have to go on is:
The difference between heads in pulling and heads out pulling just isn't there. I've never seen any conclusive evidence to support one pattern over the other, just speculation.
You are the guy hanging a shingle as a wheelbuilder. But that doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about.

[ergott]

Find a 350 gram rim, build with 32 spokes and the wheel will be light and reliable. And probably rideable if ha break ya spoke.


350g clincher rim? :confused:

Open Pro is about 405g. SL23 is about 425. Even the Stan's Alpha 340 is actually more like 385g.

Heck, my Mavic GP4 rims are about 400g.

[oldpotatoe]

350g clincher rim? :confused:

Open Pro is about 405g. SL23 is about 425. Even the Stan's Alpha 340 is actually more like 385g.

Heck, my Mavic GP4 rims are about 400g.

I don't like them but aren't some of the Kinlin that light?

I know GEL280s weren't 280 grams...

[ergott]

snipped

So I make a statement of what I believe is true. You disagree. Instead of telling my why and perhaps countering with an alternative you tell me I'm being evasive and hanging my shingle. If I got personal with what I wrote I'm just not seeing it. Who else should I be asking for clarification from?

I think you should look a little closer in the mirror and hold yourself to the same standard are expecting from others. You tell us you know what you're talking about yet refuse to tell us what it is you know.

I stand by my initial assertion. I don't think it matters whether the wheel is laced heads in or out for the pulling spokes. I have read up on as much as I can about this and haven't seen anything proving conclusively otherwise. If the scholars I've read don't agree on this I'd like to know what you know that has you convinced one way or the other.

[oldpotatoe]

I have no need or desire to cross swords with you oldpotatoe. I don't take umbrage to the ad hominem of mocking me as "professor"

Sounds like you were a little 'fazed', could be wrong. But oh well, onto my wheel builds, I have 8 to do. All outside pulling, BTW.

[ergott]

I don't like them but aren't some of the Kinlin that light?

I know GEL280s weren't 280 grams...

Lightest Kinlin is about 385g and not a rim I'd use for the rear under most riders regardless of spoke count. I know there are other builders less conservative than me that do.

[OtayBW]

Well - I guess I've been lucky with the HED's 18/24. No problem for a long time, but the thought of getting hung up with a bad wheel far away is a pain. Maybe have to think about another option for those rides when I'm alone....Thanks all.

[tv_vt]

Could you help me understand the relationship between spoke count and wheel performance? If we assume a constant rider weight (say 160) how will fewer or more spokes impact how a wheel rides? Or how well it holds up? Please school me. Thanks very much.;)

I've always had a concern about what happens to the wheel if one spoke breaks. Certainly with more spokes, there's more insurance that the wheel would still be rideable enough to get you home.

Another factor is what spokes are used. At 180#, I can use 28 hole rims/hubs, but have to be careful about the rear spokes. I've got a new wheel with Ambrosio Excellight rims and DT AeroComp spokes, 3x, in back. Noticed a bit of side to side flex on a winding downhill the other day. I think if I used 14g butted spokes I probably wouldn't have as much flex. (Actually, the AeroComps are only on the driveside - CX Rays were used on NDS. Maybe that's why I'm getting some flex.)

I've also used 32 CX-Ray spokes in the rear before and that wheel felt soft to me. Again I attribute it more to the spokes being a little too thin and lightweight for me. Working great for my 140# wife, though.

[pjmsj21]

Another somewhat related question for our esteemed wheel builders.......can the selection of different spokes and lacing patterns effect the ride to any noticeable degree?

[ergott]

Another somewhat related question for our esteemed wheel builders.......can the selection of different spokes and lacing patterns effect the ride to any noticeable degree?
I think of these as the fine tuning aspects. Once you've determined what rim and spoke count is best, spoke gauge is close behind. The more material a spoke has the more it will contribute to wheel stiffness regardless of whether it's round or bladed. It's the spoke's cross sectional area that counts. Almost all spokes used today are butted so the ends are thicker than the rest of the spoke.

I mentioned pattern earlier in this thread. In general, radial is no good at transmitting torque so best reserved for front wheels with rim brakes.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[carpediemracing]

There's a descent in Prospect Park?




:)

Heh. I think it steepened to at least 20% with 15 spokes. :)

[carpediemracing]

What is the likelihood of being able to limp in on a (e.g., Hed Ardennes) 18-spoke, radially-laced wheel in the event of a broken spoke? I'm 160 lb and have got a ton of miles on two sets of these without even needing a truing, but I always wondered about being 60 mi out potentially with a broken spoke on one of these things. Thx.

I have the Bastognes as well as Jets, both 18/24, both purchased new in 2010.

The front Bastogne detensioned over a couple-few years to the point where out of the saddle the rim would buckle. Wheel wasn't that out of true so I thought the rim was bent, but when I evened out the spoke tension in the wheel (with no regard to trueness) the wheel was almost true. I touched it up and I'm riding it again. Well out of 4 training rides outside this year I used it in the second 2.

One spoke was loose enough that I was worried the spoke nipple would fall into the rim. The spoke rattled, it was that loose. Obviously there were a number of spokes loose because the wheel wasn't totally out of true/round.

I mention all this because if you have a spoke wrench in your bag then you can get home with a 17 spoke Ardennes. I trained on what was effectively a 17 or even 16 spoke HED Bastogne. As long as you're not sprinting out of the saddle on them, or climbing at high power out of the saddle, you should be fine. The out of saddle stuff caused my wheel to buckle, which was disconcerting to say the least. I suppose a hard corner would do the same.

[oldpotatoe]

Another somewhat related question for our esteemed wheel builders.......can the selection of different spokes and lacing patterns effect the ride to any noticeable degree?

Not really although I built a front Mavic Mach2CD with Rev spokes and I think it's a little softer than the other with 14/15(both 36h) but I think it's psychological.

[saab2000]

There are so many variables and it's hard to pinpoint what makes a wheel great.

A quick story:

Campagnolo introduced their Nucleon wheels about 15 years ago or so. At first when I saw the ads I rolled my eyes. I thought, "How absurd. They just want customers to buy an expensive set of complete wheels where the spoke count makes them proprietary and they look fragile because they have so few spokes (22 and 20?) and they even call them 'Climb Dynamic', so they're just for lightweight riders, at best". Then I got a set, used. I'm still riding them. They immediately became my favorite wheels and remain so to this day. I can't kill them so I can't really justify replacing them.

But they have a great combination of solidity, strength, stiffness and liveliness and it's hard to know what causes this. But every part of the wheel seems engineered to work with the rest. The left and right spokes on the rear wheel are different. The way they are seated in the hub is unique. They have nuts and washers inside the rim instead of traditional spoke nipples. The rear has offset drilling.

And the Climb Dynamic thing was thrown out the window when they started winning races like Paris-Roubaix!

There are many variables and I only use the Nucleon example to show that low spoke count doesn't mean soft or weak. They are tough, stiff and lively wheels. Someone at Campagnolo did their homework when they engineered their wheel program.

[Hermes_Alex]

I wanted to elaborate a bit on the relationship of spoke tension to wheel performance - while it is the case that it doesn't have much effect per se on the way the wheel rides, tighter wheels are more durable at a given spoke count, for a variety of reasons. It's the principal reason why Shimano can make a wheel with 16/20 spokes that weighs much less than most 28+ spoke handbuilts and still last as long as them.

Putting weight on a bike will make the rims deform, as it momentarily pushes an area of the rim closer to the hub with each revolution, causing spokes at that area to detension and retension. The more the rim deforms, the greater the severity of the loading-unloading, which has a number of ill-effects for the ability of the wheel to hold a true or maintain spoke longevity. Higher total tension in the whole wheel, regardless of how many spokes it's transmitted through, mitigates that deformation and has the added benefit of preventing any one spoke from going completely slack at any time.

If you've got a 32h wheel at 110kgf or a 20h wheel at 170kgf, there's little net difference in total tension. With the lower spoke count, you get the bonus of lower weight and better aerodynamics. The light-rim defense of high spoke counts doesnt really hold water anymore, as lots of people have made system wheels whose rims (in the 380 to 400g range) are at even lighter than those available off the shelf, but can still handle the 150-170kgf that constitutes "high spoke tension", as opposed to typical low tension of 110-125kgf max.

[oldpotatoe]

I wanted to elaborate a bit on the relationship of spoke tension to wheel performance - while it is the case that it doesn't have much effect per se on the way the wheel rides, tighter wheels are more durable at a given spoke count, for a variety of reasons. It's the principal reason why Shimano can make a wheel with 16/20 spokes that weighs much less than most 28+ spoke handbuilts and still last as long as them.

Putting weight on a bike will make the rims deform, as it momentarily pushes an area of the rim closer to the hub with each revolution, causing spokes at that area to detension and retension. The more the rim deforms, the greater the severity of the loading-unloading, which has a number of ill-effects for the ability of the wheel to hold a true or maintain spoke longevity. Higher total tension in the whole wheel, regardless of how many spokes it's transmitted through, mitigates that deformation and has the added benefit of preventing any one spoke from going completely slack at any time.

If you've got a 32h wheel at 110kgf or a 20h wheel at 170kgf, there's little net difference in total tension. With the lower spoke count, you get the bonus of lower weight and better aerodynamics. The light-rim defense of high spoke counts doesnt really hold water anymore, as lots of people have made system wheels whose rims (in the 380 to 400g range) are at even lighter than those available off the shelf, but can still handle the 150-170kgf that constitutes "high spoke tension", as opposed to typical low tension of 110-125kgf max.

Those are carbon rims tho, correct?

[Mark McM]

350g clincher rim? :confused:

Open Pro is about 405g. SL23 is about 425. Even the Stan's Alpha 340 is actually more like 385g.

Heck, my Mavic GP4 rims are about 400g.

The lightest clincher rims I've weighed are American Classic 350 rims, which were actually about 365 grams. Supposedly the American Classic Mag 300 magnesium rims are lighter, something in the 320 - 330 gram range, but I've heard these are quite delicate.

Tubular rims can be lighter. While the GEL 280 rims were really closer to 300 grams, there were lighter ones, including some Super Champion rims that are in the 260 - 270 gram range.. The lightest rim I've weighed is a Hi-E rim that weighed 215 grams.

[Hermes_Alex]

Those are carbon rims tho, correct?

Shimano has the C24 rims which are aluminum with a carbon wrap at about 380g. Some of the others are the rims from the Campy Shamal Ultra at roughly the same weight, and the newer Easton rims from the Easton SLX wheels at about 400g for a wide rim.

[saab2000]

I once bought some Araya CTL-385 rims, which were supposed to be about, guess it.... 385 grams.

I pulled a spoke ferrule through the rim aluminum during the build and that was the end of that. I don't remember what what next but it occurred to me that there was such a thing as "Too Light".

This was in 1989 or 1990 and I was 35 or 40 lbs lighter and much, much stronger. I wish I had then the good stuff that exists now.

A set of Pacenti rims laced to some White Industries hubs would have been an absolute godsend. Things were different then and usually not better. Some things were, but mostly not. I still say the ride of box section tubulars and Italian-made Vittoria CX tires was a combo that today cannot be beaten.

[Mark McM]

I think of these as the fine tuning aspects. Once you've determined what rim and spoke count is best, spoke gauge is close behind.

Another important factor is hub selection. Specifically, the flange offset of the hub that is selected. Wider spaced flanges make for a (laterally) stiffer wheel. A wheel with widely spaced flanges and thinner spokes may actually be stiffer than a wheel with narrow spaced flanges and thicker spokes.

It is true that moving the left flange further outboard increases the imbalance in right/left spoke tension, with the left spokes having even less tension. But this can be partially mitigated by using thinner spokes on the left (Campagnolo calls this "differential lacing"). The thinner left spokes will have a greater static stretch, reducing the chances that they completely de-tension in use.

[Mark McM]

I once bought some Araya CTL-385 rims, which were supposed to be about, guess it.... 385 grams.

I pulled a spoke ferrule through the rim aluminum during the build and that was the end of that. I don't remember what what next but it occurred to me that there was such a thing as "Too Light"..

I Also once built up a wheel with a CTL-385 rim. My experience was this rim was made from a soft alloy (by "soft" I mean low yield point), which preventing me from building with as much tension as I might normally use. The low tension resulted in the spokes completely slackening in use, resulting in an unstable wheel.

I have built several other wheels since with clincher rims just as light or lighter(American Classic 350 rim at 365 grams, Kinlin XR-200 at about 375 grams). These rims are made from a harder alloy, and with higher tensions these have been much more stable and durable.

[fuzzalow]

Some of the wheels in storage of the many I have built for myself. It was easy to have this many wheels when at one point I had 10 or so road bikes running at the same time. Now I am down to one Eriksen. And this is completely by choice and what I now find to be liberating.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PyEXK7_2qyE/U44_BdH0NcI/AAAAAAAAAl8/vrEsoroZODU/s640/DSC00728.JPG
The good part about this is this collection is a trove of Campagnolo silver Record hubs, all sets save one rear hub in the precious 28 hole drilling. Oh, and a rogue set of Silver Tune hubs. Those Campy hubs are nice to have.

Tension in a wheelset is a necessary element to its structural integrity and ability to survive the abuses of the roadway. Comfort in a wheelset I'm not sure is even an attainable quality based on how & why spoked bicycle wheels are built. Tire pressure, tire chamber volume and rider fit & position on a bike is where comfort comes from IMO. Anybody selling comfort based solely on a wheel is trying to sell you a wheel! And it's not their fault entirely because they are sometimes telling people what they want to believe. For me, I'd ask them what are the design and build characteristics that they can build into a wheel that can deliver those qualities with safety. That's a story I would enjoy hearing.