Liquid nutrition for long rides

[fiamme red]

I'm talking about rides longer than 150 miles.

I've seen Hammer stuff recommended here. If you use their products, which do you prefer, Sustained Energy or Perpetuem? People say that Sustained Energy doesn't cause any stomach distress, but everyone is different.

What other stuff do you use? Spiz? Revenge? Gatorade? Cytomax?

[gone]

I'm talking about rides longer than 150 miles.

I've seen Hammer stuff recommend here. If you use their products, which do you prefer, Sustained Energy or Perpetuem? People say that Sustained Energy doesn't cause any stomach distress, but everyone is different.

What other stuff do you use? Spiz? Revenge? Gatorade? Cytomax?

I use both sustained energy and perpetuem and like both, never any problem with stomach distress with either. The principle difference is one is flavored, the other isn't. I typically mix 1 scoop Heed with 1 scoop either sustained energy or perpetuem per water bottle.

I've used Cytomax in the past but it is way too sweet for me. I can do it for a day but if I'm doing multiple long days, by the second day I'm ready to urp at the thought of another drink.

[RichardSeton]

My wife and I used Perpetuem for 75% of our intake on the Ring of Fire last year (12 hr time trial, 150 miles & > 10000 ft climbing on the tandem for us - ouch). We both found it quite effective. The biggest thing we noticed is a relative lack of burn in the quads, even towards the end. It seemed to do pretty well with preventing lactic acid buildup. We'd use again in an instant.

No stomach distress. Not cheap though.


I'm talking about rides longer than 150 miles.

I've seen Hammer stuff recommend here. If you use their products, which do you prefer, Sustained Energy or Perpetuem? People say that Sustained Energy doesn't cause any stomach distress, but everyone is different.

What other stuff do you use? Spiz? Revenge? Gatorade? Cytomax?

[znfdl]

all e-caps products:

1 bottle of sustained energy (2 scoops) per hour

if i feel a little hungry, some hammer gel or a hammer bar

every 2 hours (I sweat a lot, just ask too tall)
2-3 capsule endurolytes
1 capsule anti-fatigue

every 4 hours
1 super ao

Post ride recovery, 2 scoops of recoverite.

I never, ever use anything else.

[Too Tall]

Richard, it is worth mention in part the reason for less lactic acid build up...go for it. That is a great product BTW...love it :)

[Ken Lehner]

I'm talking about rides longer than 150 miles.

I've seen Hammer stuff recommended here. If you use their products, which do you prefer, Sustained Energy or Perpetuem? People say that Sustained Energy doesn't cause any stomach distress, but everyone is different.

What other stuff do you use? Spiz? Revenge? Gatorade? Cytomax?

www.infinitnutrition.com

By the way, Hammer Endurolytes have so little sodium as to be worthless as an electrolyte replacement. Unless you take 10 of 'em an hour.

[Too Tall]

Ken, easy boy that's not fair to say worthless.

We could go on and on about how it makes sense to have finite control over electrolyte management and how low sodium doses appear to cooperate the best with gastric emptying and use of complex carbohydrates as a fuel but that seems silly. Can't we agree that sports nutrition requires a studied effort and all things are not for all people?

[Birddog]

I use Accelerade mixed 50/50 with Gatorade (powder). One scoop of each in a water bottle. For long rides I prepare the dry mix and put it in a zip lock snack bag. My experience is that I can cut way back on solid food although I still will chomp down a Cliff Bar or two and maybe a gel or 2 or 3, depending on how I feel. If it's esp. hot, I add one of those little sodium packets that fast food joints have to the mix, I sweat a lot, and this seems to help. On rides like the Triple Bypass, where Accelerade is a sponsor, I still bring my own. Those wonderful volunteers that mix up the stuff in 10 gallon batchs with canoe paddles, never seem to get the mix right. God bless 'em for their efforts though.

Birddog

[Ken Lehner]

Ken, easy boy that's not fair to say worthless.

We could go on and on about how it makes sense to have finite control over electrolyte management and how low sodium doses appear to cooperate the best with gastric emptying and use of complex carbohydrates as a fuel but that seems silly. Can't we agree that sports nutrition requires a studied effort and all things are not for all people?

Here's a snippet of an email I got from a friend who does published research on hyponatremia, in response to a query about a bad experience I had at a race (severe cramping 44 miles into a triathlon bike leg):

"Let's look at the numbers. First the electrolytes. Although labelling in
the US is mg, it is easier (well, more useful) to think in a unit called
millequivalents, or meq. 23 mg of sodium = 1 meq sodium (sodium is Na); 39
mg potassium = 1 meq potassium (labelling in the US is mg). Sodium chloride
is 0.39 sodium, meaning 1 mg sodium chloride is is 0.39 mg Na; I mention
that because as a supplement manufacturer, Hammer Nutrition can get away
with reporting sodium chloride, not sodium, and making you think you're
getting more sodium than you really are ... and that is indeed how they
label it, as sodium chloride, 100 mg per capsule. Thus, you are getting all
of 1.7 meq sodium from 1 Endurolyte.
More reference numbers:
typical sports drink (Gatorade): 20 meq Na/liter
sweat: 50 meq Na/liter (this is a reasonable average)
blood plasma: 140 meq/liter
Average US daily intake of sodium: 100 meq."

My Infinit formula has 556mg of sodium per 20oz serving, or ~24meq sodium. That's the equivalent of 14 Endurolytes, and I'll go through three servings in my 2.5 hour half ironman bike leg. As the numbers demonstrate, a liter of typical sweat (that sounds weird) has the equivalent sodium of about 30 Endurolytes. I know of one highly successful pro triathlete whose analysis recommended taking ~3000mg (~130meq!) sodium per hour.

All I'm saying is that people who think that popping a couple of Endurolytes per hour will adequately address their sodium needs, need to think again. The numbers speak for themselves.

Edit: Gatorade has recently introduced their Endurance formula, which has literally twice the sodium of their regular formula; it's now about where my Infinit formula is (but mine has more calories and a better osmolality).

[znfdl]

Ken:

I can only speak from the voice of experience and how my body reacts to the e-caps products.

Endurolytes is one part of the e-caps philosophy. When I combine the other e-caps products, I receive a much higher amount of sodium if I were to take just endurolytes. I know that I have never had cramping even doing double centuries in high heat.

Recently, I followed the e-caps plan for a 7 day 630 mile bike tour. I never had a problem with cramping or running low on energy.

I do have to say that stating that one part of a delivery system is worthless is incredibly myopic on your part. You really need to look at the whole e-caps regiment.

For rides over 100miles, I increase the amount of calories and supplements that I take. The beauty of the e-caps products is that I can easily tailor the product to what I need on any particular day. Higher heat more supplements. Cold weather fewer supplements.

I have only had 1 problem in over 5 years of use, which I beleive is a good track record.

[Ken Lehner]

Ken:

I can only speak from the voice of experience and how my body reacts to the e-caps products.

Endurolytes is one part of the e-caps philosophy. When I combine the other e-caps products, I receive a much higher amount of sodium if I were to take just endurolytes. I know that I have never had cramping even doing double centuries in high heat.

Recently, I followed the e-caps plan for a 7 day 630 mile bike tour. I never had a problem with cramping or running low on energy.

I do have to say that stating that one part of a delivery system is worthless is incredibly myopic on your part. You really need to look at the whole e-caps regiment.

For rides over 100miles, I increase the amount of calories and supplements that I take. The beauty of the e-caps products is that I can easily tailor the product to what I need on any particular day. Higher heat more supplements. Cold weather fewer supplements.

I have only had 1 problem in over 5 years of use, which I beleive is a good track record.

Why the personal attack ("incredibly myopic")? Did I attack you or anyone else? I'm pointing out that Endurolytes have a very small amount of sodium, especially compared to the amounts of sodium in other products? Did I say that none of the Hammer products have sodium, or that one cannot get the required electrolytes through the use of the other products? Did I say that you personally aren't getting enough sodium?

Are you presenting any information (not your personal anecdote) that counters the numbers I presented?

Congratulations on your lack of problems.

[znfdl]

Ken:

When a person eaxmines a small sliver of a larger system and then says that the sliver is worthless, then the person is being short sighted. It was not meant as a "personal attack" but just a comment on a narrow analysis.

I am a researcher and I see people on numerous occasions take a small concept of an analysis, rip the small concept apart and then delcare the whole analsyis worthless.

If you look at my response to using nutrition on long rides, I use endurloytes with the other e-caps products. I do not use endurolytes in isolation but as part of a system. To say that one part of the system is worthless is quite narrow.

[Ken Lehner]

Ken:

When a person eaxmines a small sliver of a larger system and then says that the sliver is worthless, then the person is being short sighted. It was not meant as a "personal attack" but just a comment on a narrow analysis.

I am a researcher and I see people on numerous occasions take a small concept of an analysis, rip the small concept apart and then delcare the whole analsyis worthless.

If you look at my response to using nutrition on long rides, I use endurloytes with the other e-caps products. I do not use endurolytes in isolation but as part of a system. To say that one part of the system is worthless is quite narrow.

Here's my entire original statement about Endurolytes:

"By the way, Hammer Endurolytes have so little sodium as to be worthless as an electrolyte replacement."

Where in that statement do I say anything about the "whole analysis"? Feel free to dispute what I said, not what you think I meant based on your observations of others. Even in the context of the whole E-caps "system", Endurolytes add little.

[Too Tall]

Ken certainly entitled to your successful experience with that product and I could present personal-hands-on equal evidence using recommended (reasonable) amts. of endurolytes during RAAM, Furnace Creek, Record Crossing of W.Va....yada yada yada...but what's the point? You'd never hear me saying Thermotabs are junk for example or your fav. product. What is salient ,no pun intended, and relevant however LOST here is the fact some athletes desire an ability to regulate their electrolytes by taking more or less during an period of time....thus endurolytes. When I said "finite" control of nutrition before that is what I ment, apologies for not being clear.

I support, agree and enthusiastically applaud your racing and strategy as it applies to you.

Product bashing ain't winning you any friends, kapish?

[Ken Lehner]

Ken certainly entitled to your successful experience with that product and I could present personal-hands-on equal evidence using recommended (reasonable) amts. of endurolytes during RAAM, Furnace Creek, Record Crossing of W.Va....yada yada yada...but what's the point? You'd never hear me saying Thermotabs are junk for example or your fav. product. What is salient ,no pun intended, and relevant however LOST here is the fact some athletes desire an ability to regulate their electrolytes by taking more or less during an period of time....thus endurolytes. When I said "finite" control of nutrition before that is what I ment, apologies for not being clear.

I support, agree and enthusiastically applaud your racing and strategy as it applies to you.

Product bashing ain't winning you any friends, kapish?

I have said nothing about any success or otherwise with InfinIT, as I think that anecdotal stories are, as you indicate, only valuable as they apply to you. I suggested InfinIT as a possible alternative that not many know about (yet) outside the triathlon world.

Going by znfdl's statement that he takes 2-3 Endurolytes per two hours riding, giving him about 5meq of sodium, when (if he sweats a liter per hour) he has lost approximately 100meq of sodium, do you think those help in any meaningful way?

For crying out loud. I point out, for the benefit of those who don't know the numbers, that these things are not a significant source of sodium (unless taken in ridiculous numbers) as compared to what one typically sweats. Do you disagree? Is it possible that there are some readers who might avoid the mistake (which I made in my most important race of 2005) of thinking that Endurolytes will indeed supply the necessary sodium, armed with this information? For the record, in the above-mentioned disastrous race, I used Perpetuem and Endurolytes, and DNFed due to severe cramping at mile 44 of the bike leg (averaging 22mph at that point, with the rest of the bike leg being a tailwind). Plenty of calories, plenty of fluid, and essentially zero electrolytes.

Neither you nor znfdl have provided a scintilla of data (not anecdotes) that suggests that Endurolytes are useful. If, on the other hand, either of you know your sodium depletion rate to within 5% and use this product to fine tune your sodium intake, or can show me the numbers that indicate that they made a difference in your performance, I will apologize profusely.

[sspielman]

This thread is getting like a car wreck.....horrible, but I couldn't help looking at it....

[Too Tall]

Actually I do know my depletion rate for an stess/heat adapted version of me! However. posting the info. is a total lost leader because athletes have widely differing rates of depletion and more importantly rates of required repleation. There are some really cool studies of ultra runners where it is observed that the repletion rate required varied as much as 1000mg / hr! No kidding. It is a common mistake for layfolk to believe that it is necessary to replenish exactly what we lose.

Znfndl's intake of Sodium is what works for him. Yah can't argue with success non?

If you PM me with your exact regime for the race, in question, with basic body stats I'll keep that info. strictly private and respond in private.

Traaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiin <===Great Movie reference.

[fiamme red]

Thanks to all who replied. This has been an informative thread.

It's a good point that Ken makes. I see that it's much better to drink a bottle of V8 on a hot, humid ride than pop two or three Endurolytes. 8 oz of V8 have 590 mg sodium (http://www.v8juice.com/v8.aspx?ProductID=2464). For this amount of sodium you would need to take 14.75 Endurolytes. A 12 oz bottle of V8 would be equivalent in sodium content to 22 Endurolytes.

As for Sustained Energy, I think I'll give it a try, but I'll try a smaller quantity before I shell out $50 for 30 servings. And I'll look at InfinIT too, which I hadn't heard of. They have a nice comparison page: http://www.infinitnutrition.com/inf/servlet/inf/template/ProductCompare.vm. Like Sustained Energy, InfinIT Ironman Distance Fluid Energizer is about 200 calories per dollar, if my calculations are correct.

I do know that I dislike the taste of Accelerade and Cytomax, so they're out.

[dauwhe]

Another possibility (in spite of the horrible name) is Spiz (www.spiz.net). I like it better than Perpetuum, but prefer Ensure Plus (or chocolate milk) to either of them.

Dave

[znfdl]

fiamme_red:

As I have stated berfore, endurolytes is part of the e-caps system. I get sodium from endurolytes, sustained energy and either hammer gel or hammer bars. To look at the sodium content of only one part of the system is a narrow and incomplete analysis.

To state that an analysis is narrow or myopic is not intended to flame anyone, but to point out that the analysis is limited.

[Ken Lehner]

Thanks to all who replied. This has been an informative thread.

It's a good point that Ken makes. I see that it's much better to drink a bottle of V8 on a hot, humid ride than pop two or three Endurolytes. 8 oz of V8 have 590 mg sodium (http://www.v8juice.com/v8.aspx?ProductID=2464). For this amount of sodium you would need to take 14.75 Endurolytes. A 12 oz bottle of V8 would be equivalent in sodium content to 22 Endurolytes.

As for Sustained Energy, I think I'll give it a try, but I'll try a smaller quantity before I shell out $50 for 30 servings. And I'll look at InfinIT too, which I hadn't heard of. They have a nice comparison page: http://www.infinitnutrition.com/inf/servlet/inf/template/ProductCompare.vm. Like Sustained Energy, InfinIT Ironman Distance Fluid Energizer is about 200 calories per dollar, if my calculations are correct.

I do know that I dislike the taste of Accelerade and Cytomax, so they're out.

You can personalize the caloric content as high as you want, being sure to keep the osmolality at a reasonable level, at the same price. Here's a link (http://www.infinitnutrition.com/inf/servlet/inf/template/library%2CWhat_is_Osmolality.vm) to InfinIT's explanation of osmolality; I'd guess that V8 is too high to be rapidly absorbed.

On my personal InfinIT formula, I have the electrolyte level way high. On my first ride, it rather tasted like seawater; I realized I had made it double strength! The subsequent efforts have been positive: it's a bit salty when I start the ride, but by an hour in I realize I rather like the taste, and have no problem drinking it even when it's not cold (try that with Perpetuem: bleah). It stays dissolved without shaking, which is another plus in my book.

My next batch will be a lower level of electrolytes for short distance, along with another batch of my "long distance" formula.

By the way, I have no financial or other interest in InfinIT. I do know that they are getting an excellent reputation in the triathlon world for the effectiveness of their product. And it's cool to get that big container with your own name on the nutrition label...

[William]

:eek:

;) :D