Can't seem to get indexing adjusted with new cassette

[ontarget]

Long story short: I have a 10-speed Campy Record drivetrain on my bike. It's had a Record 12-25 cassette, and as of yesterday's ride it was shifting great.

I want lower gears on this bike for extended hill climbs, so I bought a 13-29 cassette. The only one I could find that didn't cost an arm and a leg is from the Veloce line. I installed it this afternoon, with the spacers (which are plastic) as indicated in the instructions (exactly as they came in the stack).

Now I can't seem to get the indexing adjusted nicely. I'll get it good on the high end (smallest cogs), but then as I work my way up the cassette it wants to overshift. I'll adjust on the larger cogs, but then when I make my way to the smaller cogs I have problems.

Other information:

-Freehub is Mavic (not sure that matters)
-When on 29T cog the derailleur bumps the cog. Haven't adjusted that yet (just figured out how via a quick search ... the "B" screw is in a different spot)
-I'm a Shimano veteran, but new to Campy. I've had this setup a couple months and it's been fine until now.

So, shouldn't the spacing be the same between this Veloce 10 speed cassette and my Record 10 speed cassette?

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[thirdgenbird]

Cassette spacing is the same. Adjust the b screw and make sure the lock ring was torqued properly.

[Cicli]

Is the wheel straight in the frame?
Sounds like a mis mounted wheel or bent hanger.

[ultraman6970]

TIght a little bit more the lockring but do not abuse...

adjust the RD in the smallest cog, do 4 clicks in the lever (5th cog)... adjust the position of the rd with the rd cable tensioner till you get it right where it should be.

Click all the way down to the smallest cog... up 4 clicks... then up again till the largest cog, if the largest is still off you adjust the screw in the rd.

Pretty much thats how it needs to be done. With 11 is the samething.

[mister]

i noticed the same thing
shifting is not great on the new bike, campy 10s stuff, put a new chain and new veloce cassette on

adjusted the limit screws then pulled the cable tight and clamped it in the der., it was very tight so i just adjusted the tension with the cable housing adjuster at the RD, could get it shifting well...just like you described

thought maybe the full housing run on the bike with campy cable mixed with shimano housing was the culprit

so i decided to see if i could get it working better, got it working better but not great...
i loosened the clamp on the cable, readjusted my limit screws on the small side...made sure they were perfect...then pulled the cable tight with some pliers and clamped it down in the der.
minimal adjustment iwth the housing adjuster, got it better, not great.

[mister]

after setting up older 10s stuff, i'm convinced the new veloce 10s stuff is much harder to get tuned for some reason

[OtayBW]

Cassette spacing is the same. Adjust the b screw and make sure the lock ring was torqued properly.What is the torque spec for Campy cassettes? Do you happen to know?

[thirdgenbird]

50Nm

Should be right on any campag lock ring.

[cmg]

make sure that all the cogs are the same distance from each other. Check out the link http://branfordbike.com/articles/cassettes-and-cogs-pg60.htm make sure you have the correct spacer order.

[ultraman6970]

A little detail.... the RD cable housing needs to be long... not stupidly longer but at least longer than shimano... maybe 2 inches longer.

The other option is that the RD tab is lose?? or even that the brifters (if not new) are asking for new parts, the shifting is erratic when the rd cable housing is too short or when the brifter needs new parts.

[Fatty]

How old is the chain? If I change out a cassette a new chain is usually in the mix.

[ontarget]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

As I stated in the original post, the spacers are installed as indicated by Campy. As for all the cogs being spaced equally, it appears they are, but how can I measure accurately? Not sure how to apply calipers to this situation.

While I don't have the proper torque wrench to torque the lockring, I tightened it as I would a Shimano lockring. It's tight, but not gorilla tight. The cogs are firmly in position.

I think before I mess with indexing again I need to make the b screw adjustment, then give it another shot. Won't be able to get back to it today, but when I do I'll report how it goes.

A little detail.... the RD cable housing needs to be long... not stupidly longer but at least longer than shimano... maybe 2 inches longer.

The other option is that the RD tab is lose?? or even that the brifters (if not new) are asking for new parts, the shifting is erratic when the rd cable housing is too short or when the brifter needs new parts.
Interesting that the RD housing needs to be longer than Shimano. I noticed it was long by Shimano standards when I got the bike, but didn't know it was by design. Can you tell me why it's longer on a Campy setup?

[ultraman6970]

The problem is the curve the housing is doing... if its too tight the cable pulls weirdly, you end up adding unnecessary friction. BTW I have a veloce RD moving around and I paired it a few times with a 10 speed record brifter and I did not have a single problem. But this is the old 10 speed design but in black, no clue about the later iterations of veloce.

[milkbaby]

I'm not a Campy user yet but do know that parallel to what ultraman wrote above, Sram requires a long loop of housing for their RD to shift well. Probably something to do with the design of the RD and requirement to have as little friction as possible.

Also, anytime I find shifting OK on some of the cogs but not others, I like to check that the derailleur hanger is straight and hasn't been tweaked. It's very easily bent without your knowledge: someone or something could've bumped your bike.

[ontarget]

OK, I've tinkered around some more.

First, I adjusted the B-screw, which took care of the upper derailleur pulley bouncing off the large cog. First issue fixed!

As for the inability to adjust indexing ... The problem occurs on downshifts only (to next largest cog). I'll move the shift lever one click and the chain goes to the next cog, but overshoots a bit and tries to move two cogs (rather than just one). When upshifting (to the next smallest cog) everything works great.

After downshifting one click I can see from the rear that the derailleur is just past where it ought to be. If I pull on the cable underneath the chainstay and let it go the derailleur returns to the proper position. I can upshift from there without trouble, but downshifting consistently repeats the afore-described problem. It can always be fixed by snapping the cable.

If I'm in a gear with the derailleur properly centered on the cog (say from an upshift), then I push the derailleur in by hand, I'll experience the same problem as on a downshift. It seemed as if the derailleur pivots weren't pivoting freely. I took the derailleur off and the pivots are smooth as butter and the spring seems reasonable strong.

Checking the shifter movement it seems fine to me. From what I can tell, the problem is that when downshifting the shift lever is usually moved slightly past the detent, thereby moving the derailleur a bit further than minimally needed (and ensuring a good shift), but the derailleur doesn't return to where it needs to be for a smooth running chain.

I took the rear derailleur housing off and it's nice and clean, as is the cable (they both appear fairly new). I rubbed a light oil on the cable just in case, but it didn't help. The housing takes a nice gradual turn, not a tight turn (about 2" longer than my Shimano-equipped bikes).

After downshifting with the derailleur having moved too far, I can remedy it by snapping the cable (as stated above) or by manually pushing the derailleur to where it needs to be.

This seems to be a problem of excess friction somewhere, but I can't find it.

I hope my description makes sense ... it's hard to put this into words.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

[oldpotatoe]

OK, I've tinkered around some more.

First, I adjusted the B-screw, which took care of the upper derailleur pulley bouncing off the large cog. First issue fixed!

As for the inability to adjust indexing ... The problem occurs on downshifts only (to next largest cog). I'll move the shift lever one click and the chain goes to the next cog, but overshoots a bit and tries to move two cogs (rather than just one). When upshifting (to the next smallest cog) everything works great.

After downshifting one click I can see from the rear that the derailleur is just past where it ought to be. If I pull on the cable underneath the chainstay and let it go the derailleur returns to the proper position. I can upshift from there without trouble, but downshifting consistently repeats the afore-described problem. It can always be fixed by snapping the cable.

If I'm in a gear with the derailleur properly centered on the cog (say from an upshift), then I push the derailleur in by hand, I'll experience the same problem as on a downshift. It seemed as if the derailleur pivots weren't pivoting freely. I took the derailleur off and the pivots are smooth as butter and the spring seems reasonable strong.

Checking the shifter movement it seems fine to me. From what I can tell, the problem is that when downshifting the shift lever is usually moved slightly past the detent, thereby moving the derailleur a bit further than minimally needed (and ensuring a good shift), but the derailleur doesn't return to where it needs to be for a smooth running chain.

I took the rear derailleur housing off and it's nice and clean, as is the cable (they both appear fairly new). I rubbed a light oil on the cable just in case, but it didn't help. The housing takes a nice gradual turn, not a tight turn (about 2" longer than my Shimano-equipped bikes).

After downshifting with the derailleur having moved too far, I can remedy it by snapping the cable (as stated above) or by manually pushing the derailleur to where it needs to be.

This seems to be a problem of excess friction somewhere, but I can't find it.

I hope my description makes sense ... it's hard to put this into words.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

What year shifter? May have a broken post on the spring carrier if it's 2006 and older any Ergo or 2008 older Record/Chorus

[ontarget]

The shifters are 10 speed Record, unknown year as I bought them used.

A bit more info that suggests to me it's not the shifters: After downshifting with the derailleur remaining a bit far to the inside, if I pinch the cable against the downtube and then pull and release the cable under the chainstay the derailleur finds its way to where it needs to be. Then when I release the cable that was pinched against the downtube nothing further happens.

I may be totally missing something, but it seems to me I've got something impeding the derailleur from moving outward as easily as it should. When I pull on the cable to move it further inward, then release, it seems to build enough speed in its outward travel to get back to where it needs to be.

[parallelfish]

Recently had a similar experience. Ended up the shift cable was frayed within the brifter, which inhibited its free movement.

[ontarget]

Not thinking it's a frayed cable in the brifter, as I can isolate out the brifter and get the problem to correct.

[ultraman6970]

IMO one of the feet of the carrier is cracked, or... the head of the cable is not seated right in the cable spooler.

[oldpotatoe]

The shifters are 10 speed Record, unknown year as I bought them used.

A bit more info that suggests to me it's not the shifters: After downshifting with the derailleur remaining a bit far to the inside, if I pinch the cable against the downtube and then pull and release the cable under the chainstay the derailleur finds its way to where it needs to be. Then when I release the cable that was pinched against the downtube nothing further happens.

I may be totally missing something, but it seems to me I've got something impeding the derailleur from moving outward as easily as it should. When I pull on the cable to move it further inward, then release, it seems to build enough speed in its outward travel to get back to where it needs to be.

Lube or replace der cable and housing..make sure under BB guide is clean and lubed(?)...

[Cicli]

Sounds like a cable problem. Replace it.
Oh, its not a "Brifter". :confused:

[ontarget]

OK, folks, I've been able to play around with this some more. Turns out some of what I indicated previously may not have been entirely accurate.

Review of the problem: The problem occurs on downshifts only (to next largest cog). I'll move the shift lever one click and the chain goes to the next cog, but overshoots a bit and tries to move two cogs (rather than just one). When upshifting (to the next smallest cog) everything works great.

After downshifting one click I can see from the rear that the derailleur is just past where it ought to be. If I snap the cable underneath the chainstay and let it go the derailleur returns to the proper position. I can upshift from there without trouble, but downshifting consistently repeats the afore-described problem. It can always be fixed by snapping the cable.

If I downshift, with the derailleur overshooting slightly and not returning, I can correct the problem with light pressure on the thumb button (the upshift button ... don't know proper name for this part). I don't push the thumb button until it clicks, but just prior to that point. This action seems to release just the right amount of cable to center the derailleur where it needs to be.

Also, I previously stated that I could isolate out the shifter by pinching the cable against the downtube when I snapped it under the chainstay. Long story short, I wasn't immobilizing the cable like I thought I was, so please disregard that prior statement.

I removed the cable housing at the rear derailleur and it's clean. Also, the guide under the BB is clean. I don't know how to check the housing between the shifter and the downtube stop without unwrapping the handlebars.

It seems to me that I either have a friction problem in the cable/housing, or something is wrong with the shifter. I'm suspecting the shifter in light of my discovery that I can get the derailleur to center if I push the thumb button down to the point just before it clicks.

With this new information, does anyone have any new ideas?

Thanks again for taking the time to help out.

[oldpotatoe]

OK, folks, I've been able to play around with this some more. Turns out some of what I indicated previously may not have been entirely accurate.

Review of the problem: The problem occurs on downshifts only (to next largest cog). I'll move the shift lever one click and the chain goes to the next cog, but overshoots a bit and tries to move two cogs (rather than just one). When upshifting (to the next smallest cog) everything works great.

After downshifting one click I can see from the rear that the derailleur is just past where it ought to be. If I snap the cable underneath the chainstay and let it go the derailleur returns to the proper position. I can upshift from there without trouble, but downshifting consistently repeats the afore-described problem. It can always be fixed by snapping the cable.

If I downshift, with the derailleur overshooting slightly and not returning, I can correct the problem with light pressure on the thumb button (the upshift button ... don't know proper name for this part). I don't push the thumb button until it clicks, but just prior to that point. This action seems to release just the right amount of cable to center the derailleur where it needs to be.

Also, I previously stated that I could isolate out the shifter by pinching the cable against the downtube when I snapped it under the chainstay. Long story short, I wasn't immobilizing the cable like I thought I was, so please disregard that prior statement.

I removed the cable housing at the rear derailleur and it's clean. Also, the guide under the BB is clean. I don't know how to check the housing between the shifter and the downtube stop without unwrapping the handlebars.

It seems to me that I either have a friction problem in the cable/housing, or something is wrong with the shifter. I'm suspecting the shifter in light of my discovery that I can get the derailleur to center if I push the thumb button down to the point just before it clicks.

With this new information, does anyone have any new ideas?

Thanks again for taking the time to help out.

Yes, busted post on spring carrier..what you describe is what happens. The post breaks, the spring carrier and flat spring cants and t=you need thumb button pressure to center the rear der.

Could also be broken strands on the der cable or split/cruddy der housing/cable..yes, you need to unwrap bar for that or the shifter.

I can OVH the shifter BTW-$25 labor plus parts. Spring carrier(fiber) and springs are $25 total..one day turnaround.

chisholm2744@comcast.net

I have OVH probably 500 or so of these since 1992/3.

[witcombusa]

Sounds like a cable problem. Replace it.
Oh, its not a "Brifter". :confused:

They've been BRIFTERS since Shimano came out with them, no matter who makes them now.

[thirdgenbird]

Sure sounds like a spring carrier and coincidental timing.

[oldpotatoe]

They've been BRIFTERS since Shimano came out with them, no matter who makes them now.

Actually 'brifter' was coined by Sheldon Brown, RIP..

[ontarget]

Gents:

Thank you for the very helpful responses. I don't have the time to learn Campy shifter disassembly right now, but I've got a good local Campy mechanic who I'll probably take it to. If that doesn't pan out I'll get in touch with you, oldpotatoe, as you have quite a fine reputation in these parts.

Thanks again!

[ontarget]

Sorry for the delay in posting an update ... you were right ... broken post on spring carrier. New carrier and 2 G springs and normal shifting has returned. Thanks again for all the help!

[mister]

Sorry for the delay in posting an update ... you were right ... broken post on spring carrier. New carrier and 2 G springs and normal shifting has returned. Thanks again for all the help!

where did the levers come from, have you been riding them or was a new to you build?

[ontarget]

I bought the bike used (wanted the frame, but came complete). It came with a 12-25 Chorus cassette and standard crankset. I put about 100 miles on them without trouble. I needed something lower for climbing, so installed a 13-29 cassette. Shifting problems began immediately. Coincidence, I suppose.

Since the shifter rebuild I've put another 100 miles on it. Shifts OK. I prefer the ergonomics of Shimano brifters in terms of hood shape and lever location. The thumb buttons of Campy just aren't in the right place for me. I love the responsiveness upon upshifting (with thumb buttons), but Shimano levers are easier for me to access. It's just personal preference, I suppose ....