Where are they now?

[rpm]

I watched the "Armstrong Lie" the other night and it made me curious about the current status of Lance's teammates. What's the latest with Floyd, Tyler, Frankie, George, Johann and the rest?

[ultraman6970]

Probably big george is the only making money by tons. clothing... developmental team... hotel resort thing going on also....

[velomonkey]

I watched the "Armstrong Lie" the other night and it made me curious about the current status of Lance's teammates. What's the latest with Floyd, Tyler, Frankie, George, Johann and the rest?

Floyd is divorced and broke and almost got some cash from people outside of LA - namely the others from tailwind, the government said no - if the government wins Floyd is gonna be a wicked rich redneck former mennonite. A few years ago he was living in a log cabin behind a bowling alley and smashed his tour trophy. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-it-was-either-cheat-or-get-cheated) Can't imagine he has really upgraded since then, but he soon might.

Tyler is in montana and does some online coaching - he aint really making buck. Like Floyd he is divorced, back in the day LA used to tweet that he was having dinner with Tyler's former old lady (classic).

Frankie is going job to job - nothing really sticking.

Johann still has bucks, but he is on the government's list. He probably will build a house out of "we might as well win" books and hold out there.

George . . . george . . . george. . . after his tell all book he continues to suck from the nipple of clueless business men and have them stay at his silly hotel selling them sub-par bike clothing. He is gonna be the only one unscathed and with money - along with Floyd he is probably the most dense. Go figure.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Floyd is living in a van down by the river near Idyllwild.

[Joachim]

Floyd is living in a van down by the river near Idyllwild.

picture of Floyd...

[El Chaba]

I bump into Floyd from time to time around here while out riding, although I haven't seen him this year....Needless to say, I don't ask about his situation. Nice guy...

[sweet_johnny]

I've volunteered for the Face of America / Wounded Warrior (http://worldteamsports.org/events/face-of-america/) ride for the last few years and saw Hamilton there with a handful of his Tyler Hamilton Training riders in the 2013 ride. He was playing it VERY low key. In fact... let's play a game called Where's Tyler! Can you find him?

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/485635_10102421996765961_1064092003_n.jpg?oh=3e08d 4039130ece952daca62054227ae&oe=55F46230

I got to chat with him for a few minutes at the end of the weekend. Honestly, he just kinda seemed aloof. I didn't tell him that I threw away the jersey he signed for me.

[velomonkey]

In fact... let's play a game called Where's Tyler! Can you find him?


Pushing the hand bike - that on-bike posture is like no other. It is odd, was a pro, a doped up pro, but placed well - now rides bikes with tennis shoes.

Dude is clearly messed up by the whole thing.

[peanutgallery]

Except for Hincapie, they're all a hot mess

I run down to Asheville/hendersonville a few times per year to mtb and I'm amazed by the positive rep that Hincapie seems to have to developed among non-cyclists. He is like the poster boy for local economic development, seems to have escaped this whole thing unscathed

[CunegoFan]

Floyd is divorced and broke and almost got some cash from people outside of LA - namely the others from tailwind, the government said no - if the government wins Floyd is gonna be a wicked rich redneck former mennonite. A few years ago he was living in a log cabin behind a bowling alley and smashed his tour trophy. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-it-was-either-cheat-or-get-cheated) Can't imagine he has really upgraded since then, but he soon might.

Floyd and his French SO had a child last year. The DOJ currently has 10 or 15 (I forget which) lawyers along with 25 contractors working the qui tam case. They are generating an immense amount of paperwork. LA's legal bills are running a quarter million a week. Floyd does not think Lance will have the money to pay a judgement. He expects LA to appeal so it would be years and years even if payment is made. He is also convinced the DOJ will screw him out of a cut even if it does recover something. In short, he figures he will get zero from the suit and in the meantime has to put up with a lot of psychological stress along with people saying he is only in it for the money. In the near future there might be an surprising change to the situation.

[54ny77]

$250k a week?

Must be one helluva lawyer.

http://www.morethings.com/fan/saturday_night_live/phil_hartman/unfrozen_cave_man_lawyer9.jpg



Floyd and his French SO had a child last year. The DOJ currently has 10 or 15 (I forget which) lawyers along with 25 contractors working the qui tam case. They are generating an immense amount of paperwork. LA's legal bills are running a quarter million a week. Floyd does not think Lance will have the money to pay a judgement. He expects LA to appeal so it would be years and years even if payment is made. He is also convinced the DOJ will screw him out of a cut even if it does recover something. In short, he figures he will get zero from the suit and in the meantime has to put up with a lot of psychological stress along with people saying he is only in it for the money. In the near future there might be an surprising change to the situation.

[Tandem Rider]

Mrs TR and I had dinner and drinks with a former Disco rider and his wife last night. Steady middle class people, happy, well adjusted, likes his job, rides for fun now.

I know, incredulous,

[oldpotatoe]

Floyd is divorced and broke and almost got some cash from people outside of LA - namely the others from tailwind, the government said no - if the government wins Floyd is gonna be a wicked rich redneck former mennonite. A few years ago he was living in a log cabin behind a bowling alley and smashed his tour trophy. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-it-was-either-cheat-or-get-cheated) Can't imagine he has really upgraded since then, but he soon might.

Tyler is in montana and does some online coaching - he aint really making buck. Like Floyd he is divorced, back in the day LA used to tweet that he was having dinner with Tyler's former old lady (classic).

Frankie is going job to job - nothing really sticking.

Johann still has bucks, but he is on the government's list. He probably will build a house out of "we might as well win" books and hold out there.

George . . . george . . . george. . . after his tell all book he continues to suck from the nipple of clueless business men and have them stay at his silly hotel selling them sub-par bike clothing. He is gonna be the only one unscathed and with money - along with Floyd he is probably the most dense. Go figure.

POTD by golly...

I saw Tyler a while ago..my neighbor was Chris Baldwin..Tyler was visiting..after the whole gig blew up and Tyler got banned. He looked happy, but really old, tired.

Johann is in Belgium, or some place in Europe. There's a warrant out for him in the US, isn't there? Doubt he'll be coming to Disneyland any time soon.
He's got big Euro stash.

Another team mate of the ····ehead is working at Mellow Johnnys..can't remember his name.

MR TR, who was it?? Who'd you have dinner with?

[marciero]

I didn't tell him that I threw away the jersey he signed for me.

I still have the Rudy Project glasses I bought from him at a bike swap at Mt Wachusett in '99 or 2000. Interestingly, I'm pretty sure the replacement lenses I got for them on ebay a few years later were from Jonas Carney

[velomonkey]

Another team mate of the ····ehead is working at Mellow Johnnys..can't remember his name.


Kevin Livingston - yup runs coaching from Mellow Johnny's, but get this, not even the shop floor. Runs it from the basement . . . that dude, for sure, sold out for the cheapest price by far.

[oldpotatoe]

Kevin Livingston - yup runs coaching from Mellow Johnny's, but get this, not even the shop floor. Runs it from the basement . . . that dude, for sure, sold out for the cheapest price by far.

I think a lot of LA 'boys' weren't the brightest crayons in the box. I think LA knew that, and exploited them for his gain..then they were 'throw aways'.

I know a guy who managed/was agent for Hincapie, for about 2 months..then quit. Agent was negotiating a team deal..somebody called George direct, and he said, "ayup-sounds good to me"..w/o telling the agent..so he said adios.

[CunegoFan]

I know a guy who managed/was agent for Hincapie, for about 2 months..then quit. Agent was negotiating a team deal..somebody called George direct, and he said, "ayup-sounds good to me"..w/o telling the agent..so he said adios.

George is known for being as dumb as a bag of hammers but the figures I heard for his salary at Highroad/HTC and BMC are astonishing for the level of rider he was. A mil at Highroad and a mil and a half at BMC. He should have jumped on those before the team managers came to their senses.

JV is doing well. He has been paying himself a salary that is ridiculous given the budget of his team; and his team has been in the red for years, requiring constant bailouts.

Tommy D. is getting paid $700K/yr and his team gets a win in the Tour of Utah for return.

[marciero]

Okay, have we had enough bad-mouthing of George?

I always liked him as a rider. He might have won a bunch of classics had he ridden for a team that actually cared about classics and supported him. The closest that came to happening was with Boonen when he crashed (was that the year of broken fork?) Who could forget him two, three, and four to one against Domo, Quick Step, etc.

From what I can tell he is respected by riders and well liked by fans. He's such a nice guy that he even managed to stay on LA's good side!
You cant blame him for trying to make a buck.

[peanutgallery]

Its not that easy, they took the high water mark of American cycling and ate it from the inside. Look around, its a husk, there's like nothing left. All derision has been earned, it is not being given

I hope that showtel he has has an outbreak of bed bugs

Okay, have we had enough bad-mouthing of George?

I always liked him as a rider. He might have won a bunch of classics had he ridden for a team that actually cared about classics and supported him. The closest that came to happening was with Boonen when he crashed (was that the year of broken fork?) Who could forget him two, three, and four to one against Domo, Quick Step, etc.

From what I can tell he is respected by riders and well liked by fans. He's such a nice guy that he even managed to stay on LA's good side!
You cant blame him for trying to make a buck.

[summilux]

Mike Barry Jr has restarted his dad's custom bike frame company Mariposa.

[enr1co]

Okay, have we had enough bad-mouthing of George?

I always liked him as a rider. He might have won a bunch of classics had he ridden for a team that actually cared about classics and supported him. The closest that came to happening was with Boonen when he crashed (was that the year of broken fork?) Who could forget him two, three, and four to one against Domo, Quick Step, etc.

From what I can tell he is respected by riders and well liked by fans. He's such a nice guy that he even managed to stay on LA's good side!
You cant blame him for trying to make a buck.

Any placings or reputation of him being a classic contender was also a fraud. One of the most obvious bogus wins was when he supposedly turned into a climber and crossed the line first on the Sestriere mountain stage one year :rolleyes:

[CunegoFan]

Any placings or reputation of him being a classic contender was also a fraud. One of the most obvious bogus wins was when he supposedly turned into a climber and crossed the line first on the Sestriere mountain stage one year :rolleyes:

Yeah. Stole a win from Pereiro, who was using testosterone, blood transfusions, and artificial hemoglobin.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

.................................................. ......He's such a nice guy that he even managed to stay on LA's good side

Nice guy to LA? More like kept his mouth shut and was a yes man and lackey to him. Isn't there documentation of more than a few "what do I say, Lance?" phone calls?
Being (seemingly) nice doesn't make him any less of a douche.

[velomonkey]

Okay, have we had enough bad-mouthing of George?

I always liked him as a rider. He might have won a bunch of classics had he ridden for a team that actually cared about classics and supported him. The closest that came to happening was with Boonen when he crashed (was that the year of broken fork?)


Um, no, no, I for one haven't had enough of telling the TRUTH about little George (you tried to spin it into bad-mouthing, but I see what you tried).

The truth - the Boonen PR race was when George just full fledged fell into a ditch like frat girl who had too much to drink and was peddling home from whatever party she just attended. The steerer tube thing, not fork, distinction, was later - and Boonen was long gone at that point.

George as a contender, of anything, was a farce. Boogerd, another dope-generation rider, had way, way better results - but he was Dutch and had big teeth and didn't look like a monkey like George - so people didn't like him as much.

The smart people knew when George was on mountain stages and one of the last ten that Postal was, at that point, in your face about their dope. His stage win in the tour, was epic only in the sense it was tragically epic.

I can't believe you used staying on LA's good side as a positive.

[shovelhd]

Frankie Andreau was part of the announcing crew for the recent USAC US Pro Road National Championships in Chattanooga.

[enr1co]

Yeah. Stole a win from Pereiro, who was using testosterone, blood transfusions, and artificial hemoglobin. Oh yeah, forgot about the 2006 TdF champion :rolleyes:

[velomonkey]

Oh yeah, forgot about the 2006 TdF champion :rolleyes:

Exactly. And Pereiro at least got out early and went to soccer (http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6686/Pereiro-to-continue-his-professional-career--as-soccer-player.aspx) - on the other side Hincapie helped kill the awesome US Pro Championships in Philly.

[kramnnim]

Frankie was at the Winston Salem Grand Fondo this morning, along with Jens and Bob Roll.

They were also at the National Cycling Center's grand opening yesterday, and hosted some kind of talk. Riding buddy had tickets for the event and said Frankie appeared uncomfortable/unhappy whenever LA was mentioned.

[marciero]

The truth - the Boonen PR race was when George just full fledged fell into a ditch like frat girl who had too much to drink and was peddling home from whatever party she just attended. The steerer tube thing, not fork, distinction, was later - and Boonen was long gone at that point.

George as a contender, of anything, was a farce. Boogerd, another dope-generation rider, had way, way better results - but he was Dutch and had big teeth and didn't look like a monkey like George - so people didn't like him as much.


My point was not that George was in contention to win that particular Paris Roubaix but that they actually had someone there whose job it was to support him, and who was capable of doing so. And I use "fork" in the sense of the entire fork assembly, as is common. Is distinction necessary when there was only one such incident?

I also don't think your disparaging remarks about appearance do anything to support your argument.

[oldpotatoe]

Okay, have we had enough bad-mouthing of George?

I always liked him as a rider. He might have won a bunch of classics had he ridden for a team that actually cared about classics and supported him. The closest that came to happening was with Boonen when he crashed (was that the year of broken fork?) Who could forget him two, three, and four to one against Domo, Quick Step, etc.

From what I can tell he is respected by riders and well liked by fans. He's such a nice guy that he even managed to stay on LA's good side!
You cant blame him for trying to make a buck.

Like LA, he is a liar and a cheat. BUT the difference is he's still making tons of $, because of his 'career' of lying and cheating n cycling. The only difference is, like some others, he did the 'oh woe is me, I cheated, I'm so sorry', head down BS..so the next day he could give high fives to his CPA. I would rather walk than use anything marked 'hincapie'.

[marciero]

Other the than doping (as they all were) I concede that I may have missed some of the other distasteful stuff regarding George in particular that seems to inspire such vitriol. I sort of tuned out after reading the J. Macur, the Albergotti and O'Donnel, the T.Hamilton...

[93legendti]

Hincapie won at Pla d'Adet in the Pyrenees.

I am not sure it's George's fault if he is dumb. If he is dumb and he is doing well, I guess he is having the last laugh.

[bigbill]

I have 5 pair of Hincapie shorts, I like them. They're also on sale all the time.

[velomonkey]

I also don't think your disparaging remarks about appearance do anything to support your argument.

My disparaging remarks about Boogerd having big teeth? I'm OK with it - lighten up, buddy.

[RoadWhale]

My main reason for a loss of respect for George is tied to my particular distaste for Armstrong. Lance was vicious in his personal attacks and vendettas against anyone who spoke the truth about his doping. All that time George, and other USPS Team Members, sat back and said nothing, did nothing, to protect or help innocent people. To me they are just as liable as Lance. They should have been banned for life as well and any assets accumulated during the ongoing commission of their fraud, confiscated. To me Hincapie clothing is woven with the blood of David Walsh, Emma O'reiily, Betsy Andreu and many other innocents.

[velomonkey]

What he said. All right here, Lance chewing out a guy whose only crime was exposing the truth. "you're not worth the chair you're sitting on" - and George is right there - does nothing, says nothing. F. Him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgns7CXeUI

[54ny77]

This is George's basketball twin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F4W0R1Zr_8

[CunegoFan]

A lot of haters in this thread.

[stephenmarklay]

A lots of haters in this thread.

No doubt. I don’t hate any of them. I don’t know any of them but I wish them all a good life. I don’t even hate Lance. He seems like a guy I would not want to be around but I don’t have hate for him.

I would actually like to pedal a bike and talk to any of them. I am sure the stories are incredible.

Now if we start talking about politicians I might have some hate to spread but until then...

[rustychisel]

A lots of haters in this thread.

It's easy to throw as an accusation, but I suspect once again you might be missing the point.

LA provided the hate, a loathsome sociopathic response to anyone who doubted him. Many of 'us', by which I'm happy to mean 'me', have provided the scorn which comes from remembering what he did. That's not hate.

I couldn't summon the emotion to 'hate' George Hincapie. He didn't do anything well enough to warrant that sort of response.

[bironi]

Chris Carmichael.
Still selling the snake oil.
Ride like a pro, live the life of a pro.
For big bucks.
Such a douche.
Unscathed.

[enr1co]

What he said. All right here, Lance chewing out a guy whose only crime was exposing the truth. "you're not worth the chair you're sitting on" - and George is right there - does nothing, says nothing. F. Him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgns7CXeUI

Bravo to Paul Kimmage for his perserverance and courage w/ speaking up against that fraud while other sheep in the room were thinking "gasp, how dare he!"

As far as Hincapie clothing, I wouldnt wear anything w/ his name even if given free. Had no repspect for this guy since he was busted back in the tour du pont days for his clown move of holding to another riders seat to prevent that rider from taking sprint bonus points- Dirty rider and fraud with or without dope.

[marciero]

Bravo to Paul Kimmage for his perserverance and courage w/ speaking up against that fraud while other sheep in the room were thinking "gasp, how dare he!"


Agree. I read his book in 2001 or 2002. He was vilified/ostracized after writing that, then again when he confronted LA. Saw the video where he was putting it to Lance at a news conference. There was also another blog/forum (NYC Velo - something? had some comic-strip type content) documenting his writings, activities, etc.
As for George remaining silent-this is what I mostly remember, rather than direct acts or statements. Some people just dont have that in them, especially with livelihoods and personal relationships on the line. He definitely seems the non-confrontational type.

[marciero]

My disparaging remarks about Boogerd having big teeth? I'm OK with it - lighten up, buddy.

Ok.

[malcolm]

Don't know if I like George or not, he is so inconsequential in my life it really doesn't matter. As a rider I liked his style, work horse, never said much, never complained, seemed to be a tough guy.
To judge him based on Armstrong and his behavior during that time is harsh in my opinion. All of them not just postal guys knew what was going on and really nobody spoke up. It would have been suicide for George to say anything at that time. Look at similar situations across the board not just sport and it's just not human nature to be the one to speak up. It's the every one is doing it and its always been that way so I'll just go along mentality. When someone does eventually speak up it's usually not that they are of some higher moral fiber but more often than not because they have an axe to grind or feel they have been slighted by someone or the system and at that point either have nothing to lose or are so angry or hurt they don't care.

I don't think the above absolves anyone but I think it's how these things happen and evolve. It's why these things never go on forever because enough people get hurt or used up that eventually someone spills the beans.

[velomonkey]

Don't know if I like George or not, he is so inconsequential in my life it really doesn't matter. As a rider I liked his style, work horse, never said much, never complained, seemed to be a tough guy.
To judge him based on Armstrong and his behavior during that time is harsh in my opinion. All of them not just postal guys knew what was going on and really nobody spoke up.

The whole tough guy, hard worker, never said much - there are so many other riders who fit that mold and weren't part of the Armstrong clan and had better results - way better results.

Erik Dekker, Johan Van Summeren, Stijn Devolder, Tafi . . . the list is plenty long. OK, so you want an American who works hard and doesn't say much - Danny freaking Pate.

Nobody spoke up and if they did they had an axe to grind? Brother, that just isn't true. Christophe Bassons did and he got put out to pasture for it. He wanted to race, clean.

It's not so black and white either. Postal and then LA had stuff no one else did. Landis was down to one road bike, cause they were selling the bikes to fund the dope - when he spoke up about having lousy equipment, well below a team of their standing, he got punished. When they left the team, they were speaking up (albeit in a self-centered way), all got punished for "speaking up" - come on, bro. Hincapie was right there playing along the whole time enabling crap stuff.

F. Hincapie.

[malcolm]

The whole tough guy, hard worker, never said much - there are so many other riders who fit that mold and weren't part of the Armstrong clan and had better results - way better results.

Erik Dekker, Johan Van Summeren, Stijn Devolder, Tafi . . . the list is plenty long. OK, so you want an American who works hard and doesn't say much - Danny freaking Pate.

Nobody spoke up and if they did they had an axe to grind? Brother, that just isn't true. Christophe Bassons did and he got put out to pasture for it. He wanted to race, clean.

It's not so black and white either. Postal and then LA had stuff no one else did. Landis was down to one road bike, cause they were selling the bikes to fund the dope - when he spoke up about having lousy equipment, well below a team of their standing, he got punished. When they left the team, they were speaking up (albeit in a self-centered way), all got punished for "speaking up" - come on, bro. Hincapie was right there playing along the whole time enabling crap stuff.

F. Hincapie.

Dude take a breath, you are reading too much into my statement. I'm clearly or so I thought speaking in generalities and you specifics.

I'm speaking to human nature across many environs not just sport or cycling in specifics. Things go on for a long period to time because it's not in our nature to speak out especially when we are benefiting if only indirectly. The lid us usually blown off when someone who either has been or feels they have been slighted blows the lid off. Seldom is it the white knight of impeccable moral standing, never done a wrong in their life standing up for those mal treated that rights the wrong.

I never implied hincappie was the best at anything. I just listed the category I thought he fit in. He also fit in to the category that fed at the Armstrong teat until it went dry, along with many others. It we are speaking in specifics, which I wasn't, I say effe em all.

[benb]

Maybe hincapie is the smartest one of all.. he's played things so everyone thinks he's an idiot, he got almost no negative press, and he's kept most of his money. In the end none of these guys got criminal charges and the entire point of cycling was to earn a living, he's done better than the rest of them.

I met TH like 10 years ago during his first suspension and even then he was already very quiet, aloof, weird, etc.. I liked his book he clearly was battling a lot of demons.

I really think for a lot of them they hopped on the LA out of control train and it was really really hard to get off once they were on.

[gemship]

Has enough time really passed since LA's confession to really ask where are they now? I think this question could and should be asked in another ten years.

[mosca]

Lance was on Dan Patrick this morning:
http://www.danpatrick.com/2015/06/02/lance-armstrong-if-you-didnt-gear-up-hard-to-stick-around/

[benb]

Interesting he was going to give them a yellow jersey and the topic is whether they even keep it.

[dcama5]

The whole tough guy, hard worker, never said much - there are so many other riders who fit that mold and weren't part of the Armstrong clan and had better results - way better results.

Erik Dekker, Johan Van Summeren, Stijn Devolder, Tafi . . . the list is plenty long. OK, so you want an American who works hard and doesn't say much - Danny freaking Pate.

Nobody spoke up and if they did they had an axe to grind? Brother, that just isn't true. Christophe Bassons did and he got put out to pasture for it. He wanted to race, clean.

It's not so black and white either. Postal and then LA had stuff no one else did. Landis was down to one road bike, cause they were selling the bikes to fund the dope - when he spoke up about having lousy equipment, well below a team of their standing, he got punished. When they left the team, they were speaking up (albeit in a self-centered way), all got punished for "speaking up" - come on, bro. Hincapie was right there playing along the whole time enabling crap stuff.

F. Hincapie.

First off, some of the other guys mentioned here were, almost certainly, also dopers. The "Postal had stuff no one else did" is just not true. Doping during the EPO era was almost 100% about increasing oxygen delivery to tissues and it didn't matter what team you were on. Cortocosteroids and Beta agonist bronchodilators were the exception but they were also abused by many. The idea embraced by all the teams of that era was to either increase red cell numbers (and therefore, Hemoglobin) by infusing blood or packed red cells or to stimulate their growth by using Erythropoietin (EPO). There was nothing unique about what Postal did except that they made it a cottage industry. The only thing they may have had that was unique was Actovegin. Oxygen delivery can be improved, but the muscles only accept so much oxygen when the blood passes by. Actovegin supposedly enhanced the muscles ability to extract oxygen from the blood which was beneficial in exercise tolerance. Secondly, it doesn't matter if Lance did it better. The crime is in doping, not how much you benefited by it. If I burglarize your home, I am not less culpable because I only got $100.

[cv1966]

George . . . george . . . george. . . after his tell all book he continues to suck from the nipple of clueless business men and have them stay at his silly hotel selling them sub-par bike clothing. He is gonna be the only one unscathed and with money - along with Floyd he is probably the most dense. Go figure.

Just finished George's book which I picked up at the used book store for $3. Think I overpaid.

[ptourkin]

I bump into Floyd from time to time around here while out riding, although I haven't seen him this year....Needless to say, I don't ask about his situation. Nice guy...

He'll actually joke about steroids and look you in the eye when he does it. He's around.

[ptourkin]

Chris Carmichael.
Still selling the snake oil.
Ride like a pro, live the life of a pro.
For big bucks.
Such a douche.
Unscathed.

This bugs me too. Carmichael and Lim building their reputations because they were allegedly applying science and revolutionized training but then claiming they didn't know LA's gains came from something external to that science. It's one or the other.

[54ny77]

high cadence and rice cakes makes a tour winner. live it. learn it. love it.