Nutrition & Long Ride Pointers

[NickR]

Have a 165 mile ride coming up at the end of June. My longest ride is 110 miles earlier this year. Towards the end of the ride i started cramping and anything resembling a hill I had no legs for it.

I switched up what i eat on the bike (see this thread - http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=165671&highlight=nutrition) and stick to breakfast and shot blocks for long ride. I have century this weekend organized by the same group putting together the 165 mile ride.

I want to try out this recipe http://goo.gl/XXu182, wondering if anyone tried this or something similar. Also what tips can you offer to complete this ride.

Thanks,

Nick

[nate2351]

165 is such a long distance I would just eat tons. 250 an hour minimum. Heavy on fat in the beginning moving towards heavy on sugar. I'd save pure sugar such as gels, blocks, or coke for the last hour. At that distance even if you get your nutrition spot on you'll still feel wrecked.

Avoid fiber.

[fogrider]

if the weather is warm to hot, remember to drink lots of water. many people don't realize how much your performance will suffer when you are dehydrated.

[marciero]

I generally try to eat "normal" food, which for me is fats and protein, and avoid pure sugar and refined carbohydrates, or use sparingly. For me, sugar works for a while but things eventually start to go downhill, so I would agree about waiting until the last hour. On the other hand, I find sugar mixed with fat, as with commercial peanut butter, is a bit more sustainable.

[stephenmarklay]

I would say your previous experience has everything to do with conditioning and not what you ate. Get as many long rides in as you can to prepare. Also pacing is important.

Second on that long of a ride, especially if it is hot, gastric distress is a likely outcome of you drink too concentrate a solution and eat too much food. I would use a Allen Lim’s products as he has given this some thought. http://www.skratchlabs.com/pages/about-us. Lower sugar but not lower sodium.

If you look at what the ultra endurance runners are doing that might help.

Have a great time!

[charliedid]

I can't imagine no real food on a ride that long but I ain't trying to win anything. Me, I'd bring a turkey sammich and a bag of chips.

[ptourkin]

165 is such a long distance I would just eat tons. 250 an hour minimum. Heavy on fat in the beginning moving towards heavy on sugar. I'd save pure sugar such as gels, blocks, or coke for the last hour. At that distance even if you get your nutrition spot on you'll still feel wrecked.

Avoid fiber.

If you're doing anything shorter than RAAM, just worry about calories - 250 to 300 an hour. Carbs are fine for this distance. Fat and protein are irrelevant. I worked with a registered dietitian for planning on a 500 mile solo events and received this advice. Anything you can get down is fine but if you're interested in drinking your calories, I use Carbo Pro and find it far more tolerable than other mixes.

[Tom]

I drink Heed for any ride over three hours, eat Power Bars to have something in my stomach for long ones. I am a human cockroach, however. The only time I tried to use anything with fats in it, it was pretty obvious I wasn't metabolizing it. It was kind of like drinking mercury. That ride was over at 145 miles with poor results.

The exception is that ice cream sandwiches are a perfect food for long rides. Not fancy ones, the cheap ones three for a dollar.

[Mzilliox]

I drink Heed for any ride over three hours, eat Power Bars to have something in my stomach for long ones. I am a human cockroach, however. The only time I tried to use anything with fats in it, it was pretty obvious I wasn't metabolizing it. It was kind of like drinking mercury. That ride was over at 145 miles with poor results.

The exception is that ice cream sandwiches are a perfect food for long rides. Not fancy ones, the cheap ones three for a dollar.

but how do you keep them cold on your ride? :banana:

[tiretrax]

but how do you keep them cold on your ride? :banana:

Handlebar bag and dry ice :fight:

[sweet_johnny]

There is some good advice here. I'll add: Don't try something new on the day of.

I found out on race day that Gatorade gives me stomach cramps.

[Gfi3]

Poptarts and Gatorade. Works fine for me on anything over 100 miles. Couple gels for the last 1-2 hours in case you start to really hurt.

[cp43]

Agreed with folks above on real food and nothing new on race day.

I need to eat a lot on long rides, and after a while I can't face another clif bar. PB&J works well for me.

Also, on drinks, I really like the fizzy tablets for long rides. My choice is the CamelBak Elixir, but that's primarily based on flavor, Nuun, or similar will probably work as well. I've found that if I drink enough of that, I don't cramp. Also, I like the ease of use. There's no bags of powder, or measuring, just fill the bottle with water, drop in a tablet or two, and wait for the fizz to do its thing. It has a lighter flavor/mouth feel than Gatorade too, which I like as I get farther in to a ride. I usually start with Gatorade, and any refills on the ride get tablets.

[jr59]

The trick is to experiment with different types of food and find out what your body likes. Before the big day. Don't try something different on the big day it's self.

You will quickly work out what works for you and what doesn't!

It's zero fun to be halfway thru and figure out you are in need of a restroom every ten miles or so.

[SpokeValley]

I can't imagine no real food on a ride that long but I ain't trying to win anything. Me, I'd bring a turkey sammich and a bag of chips.

This.

My last 150 had some great rest stops with usual assortment of sugar laden snacks, but also real sandwiches and wraps, and pasta salads. That's what got me through.

I did however, have a bar, a gel, and drank TWO Cokes at the last stop, about 20 miles from the finish. Cruised back in time for malted recovery beverages.

It was an awesome ride.

[gdw]

Another vote for real food.
Since you expressed interest in making your own bars this site might be useful:
http://www.trailcooking.com/snacks/
Scroll down the page if the link doesn't go to the snack section.

These bars are really easy to make, http://www.trailcooking.com/snacks/raisin-almond-bars/
and taste even better imo if you substitute cranberries for raisons.

[holliscx]

I started eating pasta bolognese for breakfast before big race type rides. While I'm not exactly craving pasta at 6 or 7am as ride fuel it takes me further into the ride which delays the gel and energy bar party which is an advantage. I picked this up riding La Marmotte where pasta breakfast is de rigueur and I've been doing it mostly for sportives ever since. For 165 mi it probably matters less what you eat before and more what you eat during and towards the latter stages but still it couldn't hurt to start off with a belly of carbs.

[goonster]

Eat real food, when available.

Don't start with an empty stomach.

If it's hot, add salty chips or pretzels.

Trust your body, eat what looks good at that moment.

[ptourkin]

It would be nice if other people who ride doubles and such on a weekly basis would chime in. This heavy carb-loading the morning of or the day before is not done in modern endurance riding. Slowly load a few days in advance and take it easy the day before and morning of. The best preparation is proper glycogen storage during training by eating good carbs just after you train. That is when you're actually training your body and to use fuel. A big breakfast before or a real meal during is just a load sitting in you. You can only use that 250-300 per hour, anything else is just psychological and possibly a hindrance.

Fuel appropriately during the ride and have a nice recovery meal when you're done. I do agree with following your cravings for pretzels and chips at aid stops or controls.

[classtimesailer]

165 miles is ALL DAY. If you think you won't get tired of blocks and gels then do those. It sounds like cliff bars treat you well so I'd mix it up with a couple bars. Some products have caffein which is good on a long day. Try Trader Joes Force Primevil bars--they travel well and are not too sweet. I always start a long ride with 1 or two peanut butter sandwiches cut in hafl. Use hearty bread so they don't get mushed. Matt Ruscigno has a good bar recipe: Chronic Disease walloping bars. https://books.google.com/books?id=BLCpBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=chronic+disease+whalloping+bars&source=bl&ots=rAHrYIcXLA&sig=FJQlZEWKJKkgn37GRoLLHWF0SFg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=y2lnVZyMDoy0ogSm1oGoCw&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA

[Likes2ridefar]

It would be nice if other people who ride doubles and such on a weekly basis would chime in. This heavy carb-loading the morning of or the day before is not done in modern endurance riding. Slowly load a few days in advance and take it easy the day before and morning of. The best preparation is proper glycogen storage during training by eating good carbs just after you train. That is when you're actually training your body and to use fuel. A big breakfast before or a real meal during is just a load sitting in you. You can only use that 250-300 per hour, anything else is just psychological and possibly a hindrance.

Fuel appropriately during the ride and have a nice recovery meal when you're done. I do agree with following your cravings for pretzels and chips at aid stops or controls.

ok, i will. i did brevets, 24 hour road events, trained for RAAM, etc.

I do not think nutrition is that important for a single day event. You probably stopped reading now.

Anyways, it was mentioned at least once already, but its far more important to have the fitness conditioning to tolerate the distance/time/efforts rather than eat the right foods. You could eat cupcakes the entire ride and sip on water and be fine if you have trained for that distance consistently.

At this point (years later and many many miles), I dont even bother taking food and usually just a bottle of water for rides less than 4 hours. I'm just riding for fun though and not training or racing...

[verticaldoug]

As some others have mentioned, don't underestimate dehydration. If you are eating cliff bars, these are dry and you need a lot of fluid to digest. I think your cramping issue is from dehydration and not nutrition. Eat early, but drink lots then drink more. What heart rate are you riding at? Are you seeing heart rate drift?

[goonster]

It would be nice if other people who ride doubles and such on a weekly basis would chime in.
OK, I don't currently ride "weekly doubles", but the OP hasn't said that's what he's planning on either.

FWIW, I am a Super Randonneur several times over . . .

Slowly load a few days in advance and take it easy the day before and morning of. The best preparation is proper glycogen storage during training by eating good carbs just after you train. That is when you're actually training your body and to use fuel.

Fine.

A big breakfast before or a real meal during is just a load sitting in you. You can only use that 250-300 per hour, anything else is just psychological and possibly a hindrance.

A powder/gel/bar diet during the event is great, but assumes:
1. Full supply with you, or provided by support
2. Adherence to feeding schedule
3. Continued toleration

I've had issues with all three, and in my experience most distance riders do too, at least intermittently. YMMV.

For me, the meal that sits there for a little while prevents acid reflux, is comforting, and provides energy for more than half an hour. We're not talking about three cheeseburgers with fries here. Half a tuna sub, mebbe.

Also, none of the very experienced distance riders I know would so easily dismiss the "just psychological". There are those times when psychology is everything . . .

[stephenmarklay]

ok, i will. i did brevets, 24 hour road events, trained for RAAM, etc.

I do not think nutrition is that important for a single day event. You probably stopped reading now.

Anyways, it was mentioned at least once already, but its far more important to have the fitness conditioning to tolerate the distance/time/efforts rather than eat the right foods. You could eat cupcakes the entire ride and sip on water and be fine if you have trained for that distance consistently.

At this point (years later and many many miles), I dont even bother taking food and usually just a bottle of water for rides less than 4 hours. I'm just riding for fun though and not training or racing...

Completely agree. Get as many long rides in as you can without making yourself tired and taper a bit at the end.

At the pace you are going you should be burning your fat stores.

[cv1966]

Anything over 4 hrs and I need real food. Cliff bars get too sweet and I like Skratch and Osmo over Gatorade as they are less sweet. Had pretzels and Nutella at a 100 mile Fondo last year which was incredible.

[Likes2ridefar]

Anything over 4 hrs and I need real food. Cliff bars get too sweet and I like Skratch and Osmo over Gatorade as they are less sweet. Had pretzels and Nutella at a 100 mile Fondo last year which was incredible.

Cliff bars are terrible for pretty much everything. They are essentially a bad tasting candy bar. May as well go for a snickers or payday. At least they taste good.

I once went sixteen hours on water and honey waffle stingers. They were the only thing I could stack in my pockets since I knew I'd be off the grid.

Just saying you don't need it...you may want it, but that's different.

[JLP]

The answers are totally a function of intensity. As a slower to mid pack randonneur, I do best with large amounts of real food. On multi day rides, the more protein and fat I can input the better.

At a little more intensity, like at the pointer end of distance riding, it gets far trickier to put in calories while pushing very hard.

I think in terms of calories, electrolytes, and hydration. Cravings can tell you what you need when.

[NickR]

Thanks guys lots of good info to digest.

For hydration I'm currently on the Hammer Perpetuem. I was using Skratchlabs but cramped up on a few rides. So i switched to Hammer, haven't had that issue and have logged my hardest rides without cramping. I due tend to sweat a lot even on cool rides, going to start carrying salt pills.

I scaled back my cliff bar consumption per my previous thread. Ever since then mentally i know i can go further with a lot less food/snacks intake. I guess that's the upside to been obese, i have a lot of reserves for long rides. There seems to be a dislike for Cliff bars in the forum, so would appreciate alternatives to test out before the big ride.

My plan till the week of the event is to log 4-5 short rides a week (40-60 miles) or 2-3 longer rides per week (60-100 miles).

Nick

[ptourkin]

OK, I don't currently ride "weekly doubles", but the OP hasn't said that's what he's planning on either.

FWIW, I am a Super Randonneur several times over . . .


Also, none of the very experienced distance riders I know would so easily dismiss the "just psychological". There are those times when psychology is everything . . .



Perpetuem is a nutrition product, not hydration. Be careful. It gives many people gas and you need to keep drinking out of your water bottle as water with maltodextrin shouldn't be counted as hydration. Maybe you mean HEED?

I agree that there are times when psychology is very important. During the 508 the best food was anything we had in the van that made me smile and get it down.

I'm doing the Grand Canyon 600k tomorrow and ate all my big meals yesterday. Pre-ride will just be a Pro meal replacement bar due to the early hour. We'll see how that goes.

[unterhausen]

I like to use plain water as my hydration drink. Anything else might load you up with something inappropriate, which changes through a ride. I had so much trouble eating enough real food in the first 100 miles of a ride that I went to carb/protein mix. I do like to eat real food, but digestion is a problem for me. As someone said above, whatever you are craving at the time should definitely be a consideration

Right now I'm hoping to finish 400km tomorrow in time to get enough sleep to pleasantly ride 200km on Sunday. It would be my 7th 600km, and 7th Super Randonneur series. I have wondered sometimes if nutrition is holding me back a little, but my approach works most of the time. The first 100 miles has always been tough for me, but really, I find I can recover from almost anything by eating. My first 300k (185 miles) was when I realized I could ride as far as I wanted as long as I ate. I got to the 200km point, realized I only had 60 miles left, and realized I felt as good as I had when I started.

[NickR]

Perpetuem is a nutrition product, not hydration. Be careful. It gives many people gas and you need to keep drinking out of your water bottle as water with maltodextrin shouldn't be counted as hydration. Maybe you mean HEED?

Just to clarify for the first 3 hours I'll drink nothing but water, then add Perpetuem to one bottle. For the remainder of the ride one bottle of H2O and one bottle of Perpetuem. With about a 2x1 ratio, two bottles of water for every bottle of Perpetuem drank.

[verticaldoug]

Thanks guys lots of good info to digest.

For hydration I'm currently on the Hammer Perpetuem. I was using Skratchlabs but cramped up on a few rides. So i switched to Hammer, haven't had that issue and have logged my hardest rides without cramping. I due tend to sweat a lot even on cool rides, going to start carrying salt pills.

I scaled back my cliff bar consumption per my previous thread. Ever since then mentally i know i can go further with a lot less food/snacks intake. I guess that's the upside to been obese, i have a lot of reserves for long rides. There seems to be a dislike for Cliff bars in the forum, so would appreciate alternatives to test out before the big ride.

My plan till the week of the event is to log 4-5 short rides a week (40-60 miles) or 2-3 longer rides per week (60-100 miles).

Nick

I think you may dig yourself into a hole before the event. I 'd make the short rides shorter and harder, and keep the long rides. Wear a heart rate monitor on your long rides, if you maintain the same effort (breathing essentially the same) but you experience cardio drift, it really is a sign you are becoming dehydrated. Worry a little less about eating and drink more, see if you can change the cardio drift. (How much weight do you lose on a long ride?) For me if I get my nutrition wrong, I hit a sticky spot around mile 80. I can generally fix it by having a banana with a Coke (nectar of the gods) which takes about 15 minutes to kick in.

[classtimesailer]

BONK BREAKERS are something you might try as a Cliff Bar replacement. They also make a Cliff Shot gummy bear like thing that is easier to get down than the Cliff product. http://bonkbreaker.com/type/energy-chews/

[muz]

I ride double centuries, brevets including a 1000K and a 1200K, planning to ride PBP this year.

In supported double centuries, I tend to rely on Perpetuem almost entirely. These rides tend to be faster paced than brevets, 13 to 17 hours for me. I start with 6 scoops of Perpetuem in one bottle, water in the other bottle. This usually lasts me 60 miles or 4 hours. Because it's cool in the morning, I hardly drink any water the first couple hours. After that, I usually mix enough Perpetuem in one bottle that will get me to the next rest stop, usually with ice to make it palatable in the heat.

For brevets, I may start the same if a paceline is expected, it's hard to eat real food in a paceline. I find that I don't like liquid calories in the heat, unless I can have it very cold. So I switch to real food in self supported rides or brevets. A can of Coke is great towards the end, especially if it's hot. Insulated water bottles are great when I can get ice.

[NickR]

As some others have mentioned, don't underestimate dehydration. If you are eating cliff bars, these are dry and you need a lot of fluid to digest. I think your cramping issue is from dehydration and not nutrition. Eat early, but drink lots then drink more. What heart rate are you riding at? Are you seeing heart rate drift?

Not sure about HR but I've attached some pictures to take a look at. 1st picture 60 mile , 3,500 elevation gain. 2nd picture 70 mi, 7,000 elevation gain. Last picture 110 mi, 4,500 elevation gain.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8778/18245550455_319d6b7677_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/tNidu8)Capture HR3 (https://flic.kr/p/tNidu8) by ntrodriguez (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18148125@N07/), on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8829/18219086446_92ebd0a0ba_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/tKXzE7)Capture HR2 (https://flic.kr/p/tKXzE7) by ntrodriguez (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18148125@N07/), on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8828/18057721348_81cd041cff_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/tvGxrf)Capture HR (https://flic.kr/p/tvGxrf) by ntrodriguez (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18148125@N07/), on Flickr

[NickR]

Wear a heart rate monitor on your long rides, if you maintain the same effort (breathing essentially the same) but you experience cardio drift, it really is a sign you are becoming dehydrated.

Noob question what's cardio drift?

[milkbaby]

Noob question what's cardio drift?
As you keep exercising, your heart rate will slowly drift upwards even when riding steady speed because you are getting hot and dehydrated. There's a decrease in stroke volume and arterial pressure, so to make up for it your heart has to beat faster. Also known as "cardiac creep".

[NickR]

As you keep exercising, your heart rate will slowly drift upwards even when riding steady speed because you are getting hot and dehydrated. There's a decrease in stroke volume and arterial pressure, so to make up for it your heart has to beat faster. Also known as "cardiac creep".

Appreciate the explanation. Is this something you would feel while riding, cause i don't think I've felt that way.

[ptourkin]

I ride double centuries, brevets including a 1000K and a 1200K, planning to ride PBP this year.

In supported double centuries, I tend to rely on Perpetuem almost entirely. These rides tend to be faster paced than brevets, 13 to 17 hours for me. I start with 6 scoops of Perpetuem in one bottle, water in the other bottle. This usually lasts me 60 miles or 4 hours. Because it's cool in the morning, I hardly drink any water the first couple hours. After that, I usually mix enough Perpetuem in one bottle that will get me to the next rest stop, usually with ice to make it palatable in the heat.

For brevets, I may start the same if a paceline is expected, it's hard to eat real food in a paceline. I find that I don't like liquid calories in the heat, unless I can have it very cold. So I switch to real food in self supported rides or brevets. A can of Coke is great towards the end, especially if it's hot. Insulated water bottles are great when I can get ice.

Great advice. I started my 600k this weekend with a cold 600 calorie bottle so I could stick with the pack and not worry about feeding in a paceline or dealing with stuff while I still had insulated gloves on. The worst nutrition fail I ever had was trying to get down big bottles of maltodextrin mix and Perpetuem from the time stations at last year's Trona 308 - it got so disgusting in the heat that I stopped taking in enough calories and made a mess of myself.

The opposite side to the cardiac creep happens during the second day on in long events when you lock into a Z2 type heart rate and it doesn't budge up even during climbs. I lock in around 120 and I understand that it's common on RAAM to get stuck around that rate.

[denapista]

You're overthinking this whole thing. Just carry a burrito in your jersey pocket or somewhere and find a bottle Coke. I bang out 100 mile rides a bunch here in LA, and nothing gets you through a tough ride like a mid ride burrito. Those gels and what not will eventually ruin your ride stoke. Your body will eventually give up on digesting that crap. Carry real food with you and stay hydrated all of the time. Nothing like rice and beans and whatever else you like in your burrito to fuel you through the rest of a grueling ride. If you're into a healthy lifestyle, carry a vegan burrito with no cheese.

[pjmsj21]

There are likely other riders with more long rides 150mi or more under their belt. But I have done a couple of double centuries and am training for My third Ramrod.

I am a big fan of Perpetuem and wouldn't do one of these rides without it. By about hour ten I really don't want to drink anymore and add some simple to digest solids. It doesn't work for everyone but there is a lot of science that goes into their products.

[jamesutiopia]

Am sure you've probably read everything there is to read on this out on the Internet...

Perpetuem and whatever electrolyte you like (I like Endurolytes) plus water and >=200 calories an hour of food (best if you spread it out, rather than binging once an hour). Some people need lots of variety, but I am OK with eating the same thing for hours on end (and became even more comfortable with it after a few seasons), so it's probably personal preference.

Minimize sugar always, maximize salt when it's hot. Fizzy drinks help mix things up in the stomach, and caffeine is a good kick in the pants if you need it (they serve it in bowls at PBP).

Pickles (http://www.vanholtenpickles.com/products/dill_pickle.html) (and especially pickle juice) are my favorite convenience-store find late in a long ride.

I used to ride with a guy who subsisted entirely on water, Skittles, and yams-- there are lots of creative of ways to replenish... :)