Wheel building question Tie and Solder Spokes?

[Satellite]

Why tie and soldered spokes? I am really hard on wheels and never needed them tied and soldered, am I missing something?

Thanks in advance for replies, I am sure they will come fast and furious.

Best regards,

Satellite

[Wolfman]

this absolutely pertains to my interests.

I've always wanted a pair of handbuilts tied and soldered, but I really don't know why. I jump curbs and bunnyhop plenty of stuff, but I'm not sure if I could be helped by this extra treatment.

[Hermes_Alex]

It almost certainly has no bearing on the wheel's strength. The practice only really persists because of the DT/Gerd Schraner wheelbuilding book, which recommended it. DT Swiss is consequently bound to sell tying and soldering stuff for consistency's sake. I feel that it's a bit telling that the company who keeps the practice alive almost singlehandedly doesn't even use it on their own branded wheels.

[JLP]

http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/tying-and-soldering-made-easy/

[Satellite]

http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/tying-and-soldering-made-easy/

So it's just spoke jewelry? How much extra do the wheel builder charge to perform tying and soldering spokes.

[rustychisel]

So it's just spoke jewelry? How much extra do the wheel builder charge to perform tying and soldering spokes.

First you have to find a competent wheel builder who can and is willing to do so.

Argumentatively, the practise dates back in time when 'maybe' it added strength, and it is claimed, stopped a broken spoke from flapping free, thus engineering in a little safety.

Do a search, I think this was covered exhaustively here a couple of years ago.

[Satellite]

Do a search, I think this was covered exhaustively here a couple of years ago.
Rustychisel,

Everything is exhaustively covered here on the Paceline, its more fun to start a new thread and a lot of prices have changed in the last two years, both up and down. So a current thread has benefit.:hello:

I could have done a Google search too but I would rather converse with the folks here.:bike:

Said mostly in jest, it's a pet peeve of mine when someone asks a question and everyone jumps on them telling them to use the search function. Try searching for Time Pedals the search engine can't handle it due to the number of hits (I assume).

Satellite

[11.4]

Rustychisel,

Everything is exhaustively covered here on the Paceline, its more fun to start a new thread and a lot of prices have changed in the last two years, both up and down. So a current thread has benefit.:hello:

I could have done a Google search too but I would rather converse with the folks here.:bike:

Said mostly in jest, it's a pet peeve of mine when someone asks a question and everyone jumps on them telling them to use the search function. Try searching for Time Pedals the search engine can't handle it due to the number of hits (I assume).

Satellite

So you would prefer that each of us that contributed at length previously should find, copy, and paste our prior posts on the subject so that you don't need to do a search? If you don't get good results -- as for Time pedals -- you probably need to learn how to format a search. It's a modern skill.

Electrons and petabytes are relatively free. Our time is not. I can assure you that there is no breakthrough technology or pricing to change the discussion from what transpired a year or two ago.

[Cicli]

Someone explained to me that it makes for a stiffer wheel. The logic was that it has the effect of making the hub flange the diameter of the spot where the ties are. I dont know if its true and never looked into it much.

No search function was used in the making of the above message.

[oldpotatoe]

Why tie and soldered spokes? I am really hard on wheels and never needed them tied and soldered, am I missing something?

Thanks in advance for replies, I am sure they will come fast and furious.

Best regards,

Satellite

The reason spokes break is that the rim gets deformed(bent), the tension at that spot goes down and like a metal coat hanger..back-forth...spoke breaks at the flange. T&S reduces that movement of the spoke at the flange/spoke head, reducing the chances. ALL aluminum rims get 'deformed' when ridden, particularly for big guys, like me, who are .1 offa ton(+). The chances of bending a rim is reduced with big beefy rims(DT585, Velocity Deep V).

Also on the track, keeps a spoke from flailing around if one breaks.

[oldpotatoe]

So it's just spoke jewelry? How much extra do the wheel builder charge to perform tying and soldering spokes.

I charge $10 per wheel..it's not hard. See post right above..I did way before I read Gerd's book, BTW Alex.

AND I get wire from my local hardware, solder, a torch also. NOT from DT.

But if ya think it's a black art..don't do it or don't have it done. I do it on many disc brake wheels as well, particularly those with light rims, too few spokes and thin spokes.

Many who poo-poo it don't know how to do it-either..I learned from Tim Breen..who worked for DT in Grand Junction.

[pakora]

Couldn't that reduction in movement also happen with e.g. Loctite?

I have a pair of daily driver wheels that head wrench built for me that never went out of true, no broken spokes in 10 years (deep vs to Miche hubs) except for recent catastrophic events - pothole in traffic for the front, pothole right after a flat for the rear.

It was on fixing the rear that the wrench noted my nipples were loctited.

Also breaking spokes on tied/soldered wheels is no fun.

[shovelhd]

It was fairly popular in the 70's and 80's on track wheels built with super light components. It adds a bit of lateral stiffness with an incrementally small amount of weight. Wheel technology has improved significantly since then. I'm not sure how relevant the technique is today, but if Old Potato says it is, then that's plenty good enough for me.

[oldpotatoe]

Couldn't that reduction in movement also happen with e.g. Loctite?

I have a pair of daily driver wheels that head wrench built for me that never went out of true, no broken spokes in 10 years (deep vs to Miche hubs) except for recent catastrophic events - pothole in traffic for the front, pothole right after a flat for the rear.

It was on fixing the rear that the wrench noted my nipples were loctited.

Also breaking spokes on tied/soldered wheels is no fun.

Spoke/nipple isn't necessarily unwinding after the rim is bent and the tension goes down there. Simple test, take a T&S wheel and squeeze the spokes outboard of the crossings and watch how much movement there is at the flange..then do same on a T&S wheel..much more movement.

But do what ya want..I have been doing this for a 'while', it's not hard, I haven't broken a spoke in like a decade, I'm not a light rider, use pretty light tubie rims..

But like riding tubulars..'some' will say this or that, w/o ever learning how to do T&S, with second/third/fourth hand 'knowledge'..

I WILL say NO wheelbuilder worth his salt doesn't know how to do this, lace inside or outside pulling or lace with crossings at the weakest point of a 40/32/24h rim..valve hole and seam..Ya may not do it but ya had better know how..

I don't do that last one except on my own wheels..too many think it's laced 'wrong'..learned from a really fine wheelbuilder 30 years ago at Colley Ave Bike Shop..Mike Howard..Norfolk, VA.

[ultraman6970]

Loctite probably will crack sooner than soldering.

[shovelhd]

Couldn't that reduction in movement also happen with e.g. Loctite?

Loctite keeps the nipple from unwinding. It's not going to address spokes flexing and rubbing against each other in a cross pattern while under stress. That is what this technique is supposed to reduce.

[RedRider]

If you think the concept is outdated, Lightweight wheels uses the same spoke "wrapping" technique with carbon fiber.

[oldpotatoe]

If you think the concept is outdated, Lightweight wheels uses the same spoke "wrapping" technique with carbon fiber.

Yup

[earlfoss]

Ahhhh... Those Lightweights.... I love them!

[happycampyer]

Yup
Tied, vacuum packed and cured. So Old School.

[ergott]

n case anyone was wondering.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/search.php?searchid=2299600

[oldpotatoe]

n case anyone was wondering.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/search.php?searchid=2299600

2 years later and same song, same verse...for me anyway.

[ergott]

2 years later and same song, same verse...for me anyway.

My updated opinion is that it has it's place on softer rims. Really stiff rims have all the spokes contribute to strength better.

Lightweight probably does it because any rubbing of the spokes at all would compromise the carbon fiber and be dangerous. Not useful for discussion of wheels with steel spokes. Ever notice that fat alloy spokes aren't interlaced? Same reason. Alloy would be more likely to rub away material and compromise the spokes.

[nelson]

The practice started with ordinaries (high-wheel bikes) in the latter 1800's. Tangential tied & soldered spoking became the norm as a 2+ ft long broken spoke could easily impale the rider.

About 25 years ago I built a set of "climbing" wheels using 28° NISI Sludi 290 gram rims. These are the ones with the label "For Professional Use Only". They were pretty flexible when climbing so I tried T&S and it improved them immensely. With most rims being much more durable the difference may be negligible, but for lightweight fragile rims it can help. I need to try it on a set of Ghisallo wood rims on modern Campy hubs I built a few years ago for a show. I think it would quite a bit of difference with them as well.

[oldpotatoe]

My updated opinion is that it has it's place on softer rims. Really stiff rims have all the spokes contribute to strength better.

Lightweight probably does it because any rubbing of the spokes at all would compromise the carbon fiber and be dangerous. Not useful for discussion of wheels with steel spokes. Ever notice that fat alloy spokes aren't interlaced? Same reason. Alloy would be more likely to rub away material and compromise the spokes.

Unless they are in the '3 strikes yer out' category..light rim, too few spokes, thin spokes..carbon being the exception.

Could always T&S them..doh!!!

And for right above, yes those wood rims are soft.

[guyintense]

7 wraps with bee keepers wire a little flux and a touch with a soldering iron till the solder flows. I think it looks cool and it's nice when people notice. Arguing over it's merits continues.

[11.4]

My updated opinion is that it has it's place on softer rims. Really stiff rims have all the spokes contribute to strength better.

Lightweight probably does it because any rubbing of the spokes at all would compromise the carbon fiber and be dangerous. Not useful for discussion of wheels with steel spokes. Ever notice that fat alloy spokes aren't interlaced? Same reason. Alloy would be more likely to rub away material and compromise the spokes.

Eric is correct on the Lightweights. They do it to avoid abrasion at the crossing point, though they have never explained why they couldn't lace the wheels to avoid contact at all. And there have never been failures reported due to breakage at the spoke crossing (crashes and impacts excepted, of course).

However, I think that's a different reason for using T&S than what stainless spokes justify. Certainly it was an important method back in the days of plated spokes and in the days when Robergels and Stellas were basically stainless noodles. It was important back then to basic reliability. A byproduct, however, was that it contributed to stiffness of the wheel, especially in instances where the rim didn't provide adequate support. Eric and I have discussed many times how Mavic Paris Roubaix rims build up, compared to the later versions of the GP4, compared to an Ambrosio Nemesis, compared to a modern Hed Belgium. It's basically correct that the rim is lending much more support than it did in the past. For most riders that's more than enough, so I wouldn't recommend T&S for most riders. For those who are more powerful or heavier, they are pushing the inherent stability of a newer rim and will benefit more from T&S. Also, it remains a valuable technique on the track (where lateral forces are more pronounced) and for certain limited downhill applications (where both linear impact and also turning forces again test the rim more).

A wheel is basically a rim, stabilized by a connection to a hub that mounts it to a frame. A rim like a Hed Belgium is so stiff you can sit on it without it deflecting significantly. The drawback is that it also becomes a much rougher ride, necessitating larger tires and lower pressures to offset the discomfort -- those who rode carbon wheels in the early days with 21 mm tires still feel the pain. Whatever the connection method, whether flat disc, lenticular disc, spokes, blades, or other, the wheel has to provide the lateral stability and security a rider needs, plus has to avoid lateral movement that causes brake block or chain stay rub, and it has to be reliable. Rotational flex isn't usually a problem on any wheel; it's the lateral stuff that drives us nuts -- witness all the focus on hub design to maximize bracing angles and the like. And that's part of where T&S can help. If there is any vertical flexion in a rim like a Paris Roubaix, long revered for its supple ride on cobbles, it throws all assumptions out the window because you now have localized looseness and localized tension stresses allowing movement in the wheel. Those are one of several issues that T&S helps to address. If you've ever watched industry testing of wheels, where they are basically ridden into something like a piece of angle iron to see how they deflect or even survive, you watch the spokes doing all kinds of crazy things at the point of impact. This isn't about spoke fatigue -- the rim is going to fatigue faster than modern spokes -- but about controlling movement. It's a multivariate system that's a lot more complicated than I once imagined, as testing with high speed photography shows quite clearly. There are so many things happening and so many vectors at work in a momentarily deformed wheel that even the wheel gurus at Zipp, Mavic, and Enve are notably silent about explaining what happens then. But when wheels are T&S'd, there's a lot less activity in the photographs. For most of us, we aren't going to be riding constantly over such hazards and we aren't going to be producing such effects by dint of our own power. But there are those who do, or are in situations where it's induced, and those are (and for many years have been) the ones for whom T&S is useful. Of course, we all want what Fabian Cancellara has, so we all want T&S if he rides it. Most pros are on factory wheels and thus no longer on T&S wheels, but at the six-days where the wheels are still built up from carbon rims and regular spokes, nearly all wheels are T&S. When riders go onto ultralight wheels built for them for specific usages (like some of Contador's climbing wheels), you still see T&S showing up. That it isn't more common is partly because equipment is better these days, but also because factory wheels prevent its use even where riders might like to have it around.

[Mark McM]

For wire spoke wheels, all advantages to tied and solders spokes are merely hypothesized. The affect on strength or stiffness has never been demonstrated in measurement or blind testing.

Spokes act as single force members, with loads being primarily uniaxial. They are too long and thin to have much bending stiffless, so slight bending at their mid-spans has very little effect on their load bearing actions. Therefore tying and soldering (to prevent flexing at their mid-spans) has no significant affect on wheel load bearing or deflection.

[Hermes_Alex]

T&S is something that Jobst Brandt tested and demonstrated empirically to have no effect on a wheel's strength or stiffness. At least for lateral forces, if there's no effect on stiffness, there's no effect on spoke tension. Slackening spokes due to radial deformation is easily remedied on any modern rim by using more spoke tension.

[ergott]

My brain says no, but I can't help but say my personal experience says yes.

I'll let the engineers discuss with more credibility than that.

[makoti]

So what happens if you DO break one? How hard is it to get it out of there?

[berserk87]

So you would prefer that each of us that contributed at length previously should find, copy, and paste our prior posts on the subject so that you don't need to do a search? If you don't get good results -- as for Time pedals -- you probably need to learn how to format a search. It's a modern skill.

Electrons and petabytes are relatively free. Our time is not. I can assure you that there is no breakthrough technology or pricing to change the discussion from what transpired a year or two ago.

For someone who notes that their time is not free, you spent a bit of it responding here.

I don't like the "Google it" responses either - but in this case, I don't think the suggestion was rudely put. No one compels anyone else to respond. If you feel like a response it a waste of time, why not move on to another thread?

This is a forum, meant for discussion. Why try to quash a thread because you think it's beneath you? There are plenty of repetitive topics, and we are all at different phases in our cycling lives.

[makoti]

There are plenty of repetitive topics, and we are all at different phases in our cycling lives.

Almost EVERY topic here is repetitive. We talk about bikes. How much is really new & hasn't been talked about? And like you said, that's why we are all here - because we like to talk about it all. Over & over.

[11.4]

For someone who notes that their time is not free, you spent a bit of it responding here.

I don't like the "Google it" responses either - but in this case, I don't think the suggestion was rudely put. No one compels anyone else to respond. If you feel like a response it a waste of time, why not move on to another thread?

This is a forum, meant for discussion. Why try to quash a thread because you think it's beneath you? There are plenty of repetitive topics, and we are all at different phases in our cycling lives.

I responded when a number of new issues had been raised, such as Lightweight wheels. That's all.

And how many times has someone suggested a search rather than asking to have a subject rehashed? This is scarcely an anomalous situation. The only anomalous issue here was that the poster didn't want to search (which would have drawn in much more good information from people who might now -- and didn't -- post in this thread) and wanted everyone to repeat their comments again.

OK, so someone tell me why tubulars are better than clinchers.

[Satellite]

I responded when a number of new issues had been raised, such as Lightweight wheels. That's all.

And how many times has someone suggested a search rather than asking to have a subject rehashed? This is scarcely an anomalous situation. The only anomalous issue here was that the poster didn't want to search (which would have drawn in much more good information from people who might now -- and didn't -- post in this thread) and wanted everyone to repeat their comments again.

OK, so someone tell me why tubulars are better than clinchers.

OP here, I have done plenty searches during my time here on Paceline, I simply choose NOT to this time. Really this thread a spurred many good postings and I got a price for getting my wheels T&S from Oldpotato. I briefly looked at a few of the search threads, I believe Ergott posted and I didn't' see any mention of price to have T&S done by a reputable wheel builder. Next time I will check-in with 11.4 prior to posting a new topic and make sure it's okay.

BTW: Tubulars are better because I ride them. :bike: Thanks to multiple posts I searched here on Paceline, I was convinced to try them and I have never looked back. I even bought my Tubulars from a Paceline member and a New Posting, Thanks Dave.

Thanks everyone for responding to this thread.

Satellite

[11.4]

Next time I will check-in with 11.4 prior to posting a new topic and make sure it's okay.

Don't misrepresent what I said. I simply said there were threads out there already and it was worth searching for them to see what was published before recreating a duplicative thread. And skip the passive aggressive bull····.

[Satellite]

Don't misrepresent what I said. I simply said there were threads out there already and it was worth searching for them to see what was published before recreating a duplicative thread. And skip the passive aggressive bull····.

Yeah your right, today was just a bad day in general, and I was being passive aggressive bull or otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp-wWJBlck8
:beer:

[11.4]

Yeah your right, today was just a bad day in general, and I was being passive aggressive bull or otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp-wWJBlck8
:beer:

We were both barking under a full moon. I appreciate your response. Mine's the same. I've enjoyed your comments here and hope to see more. Thanks.

[oldpotatoe]

T&S is something that Jobst Brandt tested and demonstrated empirically to have no effect on a wheel's strength or stiffness. At least for lateral forces, if there's no effect on stiffness, there's no effect on spoke tension. Slackening spokes due to radial deformation is easily remedied on any modern rim by using more spoke tension.

Unless the rim is bent/deformed/dented while riding..which is common. Alex, in your own testing, your T&S wheels..what was your findings?

[oldpotatoe]

So what happens if you DO break one? How hard is it to get it out of there?

Well, ya gotta remove the solder(torch is what I use), then pretty easy to unwind the wire.

[berserk87]

I responded when a number of new issues had been raised, such as Lightweight wheels. That's all.

And how many times has someone suggested a search rather than asking to have a subject rehashed? This is scarcely an anomalous situation. The only anomalous issue here was that the poster didn't want to search (which would have drawn in much more good information from people who might now -- and didn't -- post in this thread) and wanted everyone to repeat their comments again.

OK, so someone tell me why tubulars are better than clinchers.

That's cool.

My issue is that you are not required to respond at all - it's not as if the O.P. called you out personally for input. I say let someone else take a swing at it if it's a topic that you find annoying or overdone.

[rustychisel]

OK, so having inadvertently opened debate into old threads, I meant only that there exists a trove of information on this site about this very topic. Some of it is covered in depth by an excellent response from 11.4.

Why should he or anyone repeat themselves, particularly when the OP asks only 'why and what' and makes no mention of current pricing or availability?

Having asked the question, it has been answered. I reckon it's pretty poor form to criticise respondents or take cheap shots at them.

Digression: sorry, I rarely come back to a thread like this with a response because it's unworthy, but the value of information from someone whose opinion I rate highly seems to have been called into question.

out

[Ozrider]

I had a set of wheels built with Chris King hubs and HPlus Son TB14 silver alloy rims for a "retro" build and had the drive side spokes tied and soldered because it looks cool, and to see what effect it would have on ride and feel.
I have another set of wheels with the same rims in black that are built normally for another project.
The wheels ride really nicely as well. They don't feel overly stiff, and feel quite comfortable.
My LBS builds wheels for guys doing bike polo and tie the spokes as they break a lot of spokes in the game.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/23/e9283eb2f7cb9fa88e55600536734611.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

I had a set of wheels built with Chris King hubs and HPlus Son TB14 silver alloy rims for a "retro" build and had the drive side spokes tied and soldered because it looks cool, and to see what effect it would have on ride and feel.
I have another set of wheels with the same rims in black that are built normally for another project.
The wheels ride really nicely as well. They don't feel overly stiff, and feel quite comfortable.
My LBS builds wheels for guys doing bike polo and tie the spokes as they break a lot of spokes in the game.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/23/e9283eb2f7cb9fa88e55600536734611.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting cuz for a big guy or when I think T/S is 'needed', sometimes I do the left only cuz that's where broken spokes are most likely. Never have done RH side only.

[JeffS]

Rustychisel,

Everything is exhaustively covered here on the Paceline, its more fun to start a new thread and a lot of prices have changed in the last two years, both up and down. So a current thread has benefit.:hello:

I could have done a Google search too but I would rather converse with the folks here.:bike:

Said mostly in jest, it's a pet peeve of mine when someone asks a question and everyone jumps on them telling them to use the search function. Try searching for Time Pedals the search engine can't handle it due to the number of hits (I assume).

Satellite



http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Users/Help/screenshots/2012/2/6/1328545965797/baby-eating-from-spoon-007.jpg