Amanda Batty quits Pinkbike

[bcroslin]

I've not spent much time on Pinkbike because I get much of my bike news/tech/silliness around here and Bike Rumor but reading about Amanda's departure and her reasons for it are very disheartening (http://blog.amandabatty.com/2015/05/why-im-leaving-pinkbike.html). It makes me feel good that Paceline is such a civil place when I hear about how bad other places on the internet can be.

[Black Dog]

Yup, sexism lives on. It is always amazing that any women would want to be a part of this sport/industry. There are some real sexist A-holes and some some folks with principles that stand against this, but the really sad thing is the silent majority that looks the other way and does and says nothing.

[Bruce K]

Unfortunately, we've had a couple of those folks chase away some very active female members

Anyone remember RABikes2?

There are others....

We need to be more aware of how this sport welcomes/treats women in all areas (we are just getting around to more equality in pro racing/prize money)

BK

[br995]

Can't say I've ever been on PinkBike, and I'm always hesitant to 100% believe a single person's view of a situation, but certainly it sounds like there's enough there for her to have a very valid point.

The comment alone about a "girlfriend after too many shots" alone is enough to turn me off from the site. It's a shame that this sh** happens, and, worse, that people are seemingly unwilling to acknowledge it, let alone confront it.

[Black Dog]

Sort of like the broader culture that produces this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fhritp-phenomenon-cbc-journalists-share-mortifying-experiences-1.3072191

[tiretrax]

Sort like the broader culture that produces this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fhritp-phenomenon-cbc-journalists-share-mortifying-experiences-1.3072191

Why did I think all Canadians were nice, placid people? I find it unbelievable that someone would yell at all, but even more so when a video camera will preserve it for posterity.

I'm still disappointed that Specialized ended their sponsorship of the Lululemon team. I can't imagine it hurt their bottom line and could bolster their sales of woman-specific bikes.

[nooneline]

Yup, sexism lives on. It is always amazing that any women would want to be a part of this sport/industry. There are some real sexist A-holes and some some folks with principles that stand against this, but the really sad thing is the silent majority that looks the other way and does and says nothing.

Hear hear.

In so many situations it's easy to think that what you're doing is private behavior, when actually, it's extremely public behavior that sets a tone in what should be an open and welcoming environment. And that comes a few responsibilities - including the responsibility of not driving people away from the community.

[JStonebarger]

Pretty sad. I only recently started mountain biking and only recently discovered Pink Bike. This certainly won't make a fan of me.

[MattTuck]

I can't say I've been on pinkbike much, so it is hard to pass judgement one way or another.

I've seen similar instances where an inappropriate comment is made and then an outspoken response leads to a sort of downward spiral. My view on these things is that doing the right thing is usually more important than being right.

In the situation that she describes, I'd probably have emailed the author and editor privately, and suggested the review be edited. Or have some female users email the editor.

The problem with writing articles with the intention of I became educated in what buttons to push for maximum reaction, and I figured out what really incensed my audience is that you invite conflict.

Is it a surprise that you can't be both provocative with an audience and also be seen as an honest broker on real issues? I don't think so. If you get paid to cry wolf and whip the mob into a frenzy, is it reasonable to expect that you'll be seen as a credible voice when a wolf does arrive?

All that said, I'm not excusing the behavior of those at pinkbike or the users making comments. That is unacceptable behavior. Just that sometimes there is a better way to resolve issues. Like, sending the following email to the reviewer.

Hey [Insert Reviewer's Name],
I saw in your latest review the comparison of the bike to a ‘girlfriend after too many shots’. I'm thinking you were trying to be funny, but that can also be interpreted as pretty offensive to women, especially against the backdrop of consent in the news recently.

I'm sure that's not how you meant it.


Of course, there is an entirely different discussion to be had if you work for a company with a strategy of producing click bait -- not sure you'll ever be a platform for reasoned debate, no matter the merit of your ideas.

[fiamme red]

Who is Amanda Batty and what is Pinkbike?

[Anarchist]

Sort like the broader culture that produces this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fhritp-phenomenon-cbc-journalists-share-mortifying-experiences-1.3072191

This has really struck a raw nerve with me. It just seems to be indicative of an overall decline in what we like to refer to as "civilized society". It seems to me that we are witnessing a general decline in standards of behavior, manners, mores and respect for others. All across the spectrum.

It may not be fair but I place a lot of the blame on "social" media ( the most unsocial thing ever invented) which leads people to believe that everyone deserves a voice and that every voice is meaningful. Well they aren't. And in order to try and rise above the babble they resort to ever more out there behavior and comments.

Everyone wants to be famous and noticed. Everyone wants to be on TV, and there just don't seem to be any limits on acceptable behavior and no filters or self control.

The LOUD profanity in public places has just become unbearable and this video shows what is wrong with almost any public event nowadays.

Just awful.

[Mzilliox]

This has really struck a raw nerve with me. It just seems to be indicative of an overall decline in what we like to refer to as "civilized society". It seems to me that we are witnessing a general decline in standards of behavior, manners, mores and respect for others. All across the spectrum.

It may not be fair but I place a lot of the blame on "social" media ( the most unsocial thing ever invented) which leads people to believe that everyone deserves a voice and that every voice is meaningful. Well they aren't. And in order to try and rise above the babble they resort to ever more out there behavior and comments.

Everyone wants to be famous and noticed. Everyone wants to be on TV, and there just don't seem to be any limits on acceptable behavior and no filters or self control.

The LOUD profanity in public places has just become unbearable and this video shows what is wrong with almost any public event nowadays.

Just awful.

I agree with this post so much I have chosen not to have children. thats fact

[mg2ride]

So she is quitting because that don't publish her anymore? Never been on pinkbike but will check it out tonight.

She writes "...I’m kind of an asshole..... I became educated in what buttons to push for maximum reaction, and I figured out what really incensed my audience most"

Then she bitches when a colleague does the same?

Beyond that I don't see where the comment is really that offensive. He didn't say a strange women that had too many shots. It is his "girlfriend".
Just because she will do more with a few shots in her doesn't mean that it is still not coessential and it sure as hell is NOT rape. If I were the editors I would have been disappointed in her as well.

[PQJ]

never mind

[saab2000]

I don't know who she is or what she writes and I don't know Pinkbike, but I did read her article. I guess she's a blogger or writer for an online cycling site. We all visit various sites and we often get into discussions, sometimes heated. But it's always important to keep a few things in mind. This is about bikes and sometimes tangential material. It's not larger than life itself and if it's true that she's even been contacted at her home about stuff she's written on a bike site that simply crosses a line between a 'fun' cycling site and clearly enters a creepy realm and beyond.

I know nothing of her or this site but some of what she describes is definitely awful behavior.

[54ny77]

I agree 100% with your comment.

(Which in the context of your forum name is kinda funny. ;))

This has really struck a raw nerve with me. It just seems to be indicative of an overall decline in what we like to refer to as "civilized society". It seems to me that we are witnessing a general decline in standards of behavior, manners, mores and respect for others. All across the spectrum.

It may not be fair but I place a lot of the blame on "social" media ( the most unsocial thing ever invented) which leads people to believe that everyone deserves a voice and that every voice is meaningful. Well they aren't. And in order to try and rise above the babble they resort to ever more out there behavior and comments.

Everyone wants to be famous and noticed. Everyone wants to be on TV, and there just don't seem to be any limits on acceptable behavior and no filters or self control.

The LOUD profanity in public places has just become unbearable and this video shows what is wrong with almost any public event nowadays.

Just awful.

[Aaron O]

I don't read pinkbike and don't really know about its tone or members. The whole thing struck me as some argument I would have heard in college. I might have cared then, I don't care now.

People are stupid on internet comment sections? Some people can be callous and insensitive while writing meaningless things on a topic 99% of the world won't care about? It's just not news, or worth my ire.

There does seem to be a general decline in behavior...but I usually just think it's me getting old and cranky. Everyone always complains about kids today and looks wistfully back at their past. I do think there is a tendency now where people think they are immune from criticism and everyone is terrified of verbalizing society's mores when confronted with crap behavior.

[br995]

She writes "...I’m kind of an asshole..... I became educated in what buttons to push for maximum reaction, and I figured out what really incensed my audience most"

Then she bitches when a colleague does the same?
Keep in mind that what 'pushes buttons for maximum reaction' may actually just mean writing about the realities of being a woman in cycling, and calling people out on sexist behavior. I haven't read her articles on there, but something doesn't have to be 'wrong' or 'rude' or 'inappropriate' to push buttons - it's entirely dependent upon context and audience how your message is received.

If that is the case - that she 'pushed buttons' by simply sharing a message that people didn't want to hear - then it is a very different thing from writing unnecessary, sexist comments in an article about a bicycle.

Beyond that I don't see where the comment is really that offensive. He didn't say a strange women that had too many shots. It is his "girlfriend".
Just because she will do more with a few shots in her doesn't mean that it is still not coessential and it sure as hell is NOT rape. If I were the editors I would have been disappointed in her as well.
There is a much broader argument here that can be made about consent/non-consent while under the influence of alcohol, but I don't think this is the time or the place. I do think, though, that it's important to point out the fact that offensiveness is not universal, and that it's entirely plausible that growing up (I assume) male has given you a dramatically different set of world views and experiences than had you been born female, and that what people say and how it affects you is vastly different from how it may affect a woman.


ETA: I think it's also a common reaction to describe people airing their grievances as 'overreactive' or 'whiny' because that is easier than genuinely listening to their experiences and understanding how our own behavior and the society we inhabit contributes to those negative experiences.

This isn't a direct response to mg2ride, but just a larger general observation.

[fa63]

Who is Amanda Batty and what is Pinkbike?

These exact two thoughts went through my mind when I first saw the thread :D

[FlashUNC]

People are stupid on internet comment sections? Some people can be callous and insensitive while writing meaningless things on a topic 99% of the world won't care about? It's just not news, or worth my ire.



Death threats, doxxing and other violent rhetoric go far beyond the vein of just stupid Internet comments. These are folks terrorizing people simply because, of all things, they didn't like how a person wrote a bike review.

I agree its insane, but not worth ire? Then what is?

[slidey]

No real sentiments on this topic, bar one -

I very firmly believe that there's no reasonable content* that is inherently inappropriate by itself - just poor delivery/narrow receptors.

In the first instance, it seemed to me that it was too easy for her to take offense when there was none intended. In the second instance, it seemed that the guy who made the first comment decided to take the easy way out by taking offense instead of taking care to point out the intended delivery.

In other words, if you're going to dish it out, be prepared to take it as well - whoever/whatever your identity is. I really think we can all do with laughing at ourselves a lot more, than at others.

And, we're having this silly discussion about someone leaving a bike forum - geez louis (Hey Louis!). Who the hell cares? I don't think there's sexism demonstrated in that one comment - there's spades of stupidity demonstrated, but not convinced of the sexism, yet. Not saying there's no sexism in the industry, or in life, or at work, just that I can't see any in that comment.

Best way to combat awkward humour - by being awkwardly humorous yourself. Make a joke about men - why don't you? I'm sure that's a more efficient way to wean out the toddlers from the mature one's, while getting your point across.

The internet isn't a living thing - it is what we make of it through our own prisms. Bring on the humour, yo (and, the torches for me, if you please).

* barring the absolute societally-labeled indecent/inappropriate content like extreme disregard for human rights via bigotry, etc.

[biker72]

Who is Amanda Batty and what is Pinkbike?

These exact two thoughts went through my mind when I first saw the thread :D



Same here....:)

[El Chaba]

In the future, everyone will be simultaneously offensive and offended.....

[gdw]

"I don't read pinkbike and don't really know about its tone or members. The whole thing struck me as some argument I would have heard in college. I might have cared then, I don't care now."

+1 Mountain bike websites/forums generally attract large numbers of teenagers and 20 somethings. If she wrote articles with the intent of riling them up she was successful. Too bad about the backlash but she seems to have enjoyed feeding the fire until it got too hot.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Death threats, doxxing and other violent rhetoric go far beyond the vein of just stupid Internet comments. These are folks terrorizing people simply because, of all things, they didn't like how a person wrote a bike review.



I agree its insane, but not worth ire? Then what is?


^ This. Having an argument on a bike forum is fine. But threats are different and arguments. Protecting those who threaten but not those who argue is screwed up.

I've read her column pieces before, and while they are provocative they are also thoughtful and intentional. Comments about getting one's girlfriend drunk in order to have sex with her are clumsy and crude, not thoughtfully provocative (unless the author was intentionally trying to start a conversation about consent).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DreaminJohn]

This has really struck a raw nerve with me. It just seems to be indicative of an overall decline in what we like to refer to as "civilized society". It seems to me that we are witnessing a general decline in standards of behavior, manners, mores and respect for others. All across the spectrum.

It may not be fair but I place a lot of the blame on "social" media ( the most unsocial thing ever invented) which leads people to believe that everyone deserves a voice and that every voice is meaningful. Well they aren't. And in order to try and rise above the babble they resort to ever more out there behavior and comments.

Everyone wants to be famous and noticed. Everyone wants to be on TV, and there just don't seem to be any limits on acceptable behavior and no filters or self control.

The LOUD profanity in public places has just become unbearable and this video shows what is wrong with almost any public event nowadays.

Just awful.


I couldn't agree more. Where's my LIKE button, darn it? :)

I think this, combined with the relative anonymity provided by most social media methods, has gotten us to where we are today. Feeling entitled and anonymous? Watch the f*** OUT.

[oldpotatoe]

Death threats, doxxing and other violent rhetoric go far beyond the vein of just stupid Internet comments. These are folks terrorizing people simply because, of all things, they didn't like how a person wrote a bike review.

I agree its insane, but not worth ire? Then what is?

Define 'doxxing' please.

[nooneline]

Death threats, doxxing and other violent rhetoric go far beyond the vein of just stupid Internet comments. These are folks terrorizing people simply because, of all things, they didn't like how a person wrote a bike review.

I agree its insane, but not worth ire? Then what is?

Agree. I mean, the type of behavior she describes has definitely picked up steam in the past several years, and it's been basically heavily organized harassment. It's not just trolling - people have been severely threatened, forced from their jobs, homes, had families threatened, etc.

[nooneline]

Define 'doxxing' please.

Releasing personal details about a person with the explicit purpose of directing harassment toward them.

More information is available at the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing) on the word/practice.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Doxxing is posting personally identifying information as a means of attacking an online personality. Eg, address, workplace, phone, name (if unknown), etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FlashUNC]

Define 'doxxing' please.

Searching for any personally identifiable information, to then use as a weapon against someone. Term comes from using public documents -- and the information in the public domain -- to use for whatever purposes you deem fit.

It can be beneficial -- say the Steubenville Rape Case -- but it can also create an immense amount of harm through threats explicit or implied.

For example, Finding someone's home address and phone number, then calling the local cops to convince them a hostage situation is going on in the home, so they send a SWAT team barreling through your front door. (Called SWATing, and yes, it does happen.)

Or more generally, just publishing someone's information as red meat for all sorts of crazies to do what they will with it -- show up at your front door and berate you? Happens. Publish it with implied or explicit threats of sexual violence? Happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing

[choke]

Death threats, doxxing and other violent rhetoric go far beyond the vein of just stupid Internet comments. These are folks terrorizing people simply because, of all things, they didn't like how a person wrote a bike review.

I agree its insane, but not worth ire? Then what is?Bingo. What she has described went far beyond comments in poor taste.

FWIW, Padraig's view - http://redkiteprayer.com/2015/05/pinkgate/

[Anarchist]

I agree 100% with your comment.

(Which in the context of your forum name is kinda funny. ;))


I am the most buttoned up, establishment sort of guy you will ever meet.

Forum name notwithstanding.

I was at a Neil Diamond concert with my wife recently and was shocked to hear the language being casually tossed around in the row of seats behind me - not a young radical crowd.

I think sometimes that I should just close the blinds, lock the door and never leave my house again.

[CheshireCat]

So she is quitting because that don't publish her anymore? Never been on pinkbike but will check it out tonight.

She writes "...I’m kind of an asshole..... I became educated in what buttons to push for maximum reaction, and I figured out what really incensed my audience most"

Then she bitches when a colleague does the same?

Beyond that I don't see where the comment is really that offensive. He didn't say a strange women that had too many shots. It is his "girlfriend".
Just because she will do more with a few shots in her doesn't mean that it is still not coessential and it sure as hell is NOT rape. If I were the editors I would have been disappointed in her as well.

'legally, this isn't factually accurate.

If someone is intoxicated, they absolutely cannot give consent, regardless of their "relationship status" with the other party.

This coming from someone who just had to go through sexual assault protocol training both as a human being and as a health care provider.


this being said, "consent" is a far more nuanced thing in a courtroom, however this won't stop charges from being issued. I have been both witness and legal case handler on this very type of situation, and it ended badly for the accused because there was beyond a reasonable doubt of lack of consent.

just something to pass on to those youngins or those with kids about to head off to college.


I should add, the level of discourse on this site is far higher than that of pinkbike, and part of the reason why, despite me riding mostly dirt/cross, I stick around here. Give y'allselves a pat on the back for that. We're having a mature discussion without pointing fingers. That's worlds better than what happens over at PB.

[eippo1]

Agree. I mean, the type of behavior she describes has definitely picked up steam in the past several years, and it's been basically heavily organized harassment. It's not just trolling - people have been severely threatened, forced from their jobs, homes, had families threatened, etc.

Yes, this is a large part of why it can't be dismissed. Yes, she wrote a column that was similar to the guy from barstool sports -- inflammatory and largely humorous to get people to react, but she was hired to do so. The difficulty is when the guys that she wrote for don't stand by her or even give her guidance when it starts going too far.

There is a large problem right now with mob behavior on the internet. If everyone says, that's not my problem then when does it get to be your problem? When you're kid plays video games on the internet, kills some people on a game, gets stalked and then someone broadcasts your address on twitter? Unfortunately, it's happening largely to women right now. Look up gamergate.

[br995]

Bingo. What she has described went far beyond comments in poor taste.

FWIW, Padraig's view - http://redkiteprayer.com/2015/05/pinkgate/

This is very much worth the read for anyone who took the time to read Amanda's post - particularly anyone who doesn't see why she was so upset about the 'drunk girlfriend' line. She expounds upon the problem in a quote in Padraig's post.

[PQJ]

Where's my LIKE button, darn it?


I've been asking for one for years. Alas, the mods seem not to like me. :help:

[malcolm]

I'm seldom surprised by anything people say and do. Too many years in the ER.

I can't imagine how someone could not at least be taken aback by a responsive mtn bike being compared to a drunken sex partner. At the very best it's in incredibly poor taste and evidence of even poorer judgment on the writer's part.

I agree with our not so subversive anarchist. As a group in general people have lost all consideration of one another from the simplest interactions onward. It's all me all the time.

[JStonebarger]

...there's no reasonable content* that is inherently inappropriate by itself...

* barring the absolute societally-labeled indecent/inappropriate content like extreme disregard for human rights via bigotry, etc.

Exactly. And the drunk-girlfriend metaphor and FHRITP harassment are prime examples of wanton disregard for human rights.

Rape isn't okay. Pretending it is isn't either.

[brando]

people are living completely in their egos>chip on their shoulder>keyboard tough guys=Bullies.

[slidey]

Exactly. And the drunk-girlfriend metaphor and FHRITP harassment are prime examples of wanton disregard for human rights.

Rape isn't okay. Pretending it is isn't either.

Obviously, agreed!

Others have alluded to the mindless mob mentality in some corners of the internet. My point is that in this case, it seems to me, that an inordinate amount of stupidity was propagated by both the initial poster of the comment, and by the recipient, instead of resorting to humour/sarcasm to 'get back' at the other. They seem to be very adept at dishing out sarcasm when it suits them, but are looking too hard for a convenient 'out' to create a mountain out of what started out as a molehill. As Aaron O hinted, it seems like two immature high-schoolers engaging in one-upmanship, with the added disadvantage of having a mob back one stupid person by taking matters to dizzying depths of idiocy.

[DRZRM]

Beyond that I don't see where the comment is really that offensive. He didn't say a strange women that had too many shots. It is his "girlfriend".
Just because she will do more with a few shots in her doesn't mean that it is still not coessential and it sure as hell is NOT rape. If I were the editors I would have been disappointed in her as well.

Jesus! The very term "too many" shots implies an inability to give consent, otherwise it would not be "too many". The fact that the offensive content was about a girlfriend (or wife) rather than a stranger does not keep coercive sexual contact from being rape. That's a pretty straightforward interpretation of law.

The edit (to "your girlfriend or boyfriend") does nothing to correct he interpretation that this is using "rape culture" to make a bad joke in a bike review. The wrong reviewer left that site.

[Charles M]

The time it's taking Pinkbike to reply and own this is FU(ing incredible...

[JStonebarger]

...it seems like two immature high-schoolers engaging in one-upmanship, with the added disadvantage of having a mob back one stupid person by taking matters to dizzying depths of idiocy.

I don't think writing style is the issue. Why do you think the mob backed the "stupid person" it did? And why do you suppose Pink Bike was so utterly unhelpful when things got downright dangerous?

Writing style not to your taste? That's fine, and you made some good points about it. But so what?

Rape isn't okay. Pretending it is isn't either.

[JStonebarger]

The time it's taking Pinkbike to reply and own this is FU(ing incredible...

No doubt. The next time I log onto Pinkbike will be to close my account.

[bcroslin]

Bingo. What she has described went far beyond comments in poor taste.

FWIW, Padraig's view - http://redkiteprayer.com/2015/05/pinkgate/

Thoughtful piece - thanks for pointing it out

[Dead Man]

Actually, no. Never mind.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

The time it's taking Pinkbike to reply and own this is FU(ing incredible...


The window for them to respond without looking like idiots is rapidly closing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[holliscx]

The four letter word censorship here is junior varsity.

[fuzzalow]

What can you say to any of this?

Morons back slapping each other, laughing at their own stupid inside jokes, feeling one with with one another in a common bond of insignificance and frustration. To the loser with the sad joke/analogy about plying 'em with drinks to get 'em to do what you want 'em to do: Too bad that's how it is for you and the kind of women you hang with.

It comes down to this: It is really hard to make one's way in the world. It is brutal and if one isn't moving forwards, one is falling behind. That is the volatility and speed of change in the first world in which we live. Ultimately, underlying this Pinkbike incident has less to do with misogyny than it has to do with saving one's self from being crapped on in a world where one can no longer keep up, or was unprepared for, or feels unrewarded for, or whatever. Feelings real or imagined. When that happens, it doesn't feel so bad as long as one can misuse, abuse or disrespect somebody/anybody else and for whatever reason. And it feels even better when another moron, sharing the same frustrations and despair, can agree to it too. The larger the confederacy of dunces becomes, the more the powerless outsiders become the empowered insiders. Pinkbike pandered to this crowd and for that they are guilty of editorial cowardice in sacrifice to the mouse clicks of the Internet mob.

There isn't a loss of civility in the modern world. The festering internet mob is not representative of the whole, they simply have a ready outlet in which to gather and be heard. There are plenty of civilized, mannered, thoughtful persons in the modern world that know what and how to conduct themselves, with presence of mind and self restraint. Ladies and gentlemen such as these do not indulge in the cheap way out because it is vulgar, beneath their ideas of dignity and disrespectful to their own ideals of self worth. They do this because the strength of character they have each strove and sacrificed to develop is more satisfying, more correct and true to their own identity and ideals of who they see themselves to be.

The miscreants and misfits that indulge in the coarse behavior and attitudes gone wrong in this Pinkbike fiasco are the poor slobs treading sewage in a cesspool of their own making. Better them than me. Survival for them is anyways and means it takes not to be the last worthless nobody on the bottom rung of a ladder to nowhere. The way they are is why these stupid bastards are there in the first place.

[Louis]

Idiots being idiots and the misogynistic echo-chamber they're in when they hang out with their buds has been a fact of life for a long time. It used to be that it only affected those close to them. These days it's broadcast over the entire world.

It they don't learn from their parents by the time they're say 15 years old how to behave, it's unlikely they'll ever improve a whole lot, unless somehow something causes them to realize that what they're doing and thinking is wrong. Maybe finally understanding that with that sort of attitude you are unlikely to have a healthy relationship with a woman will help.

[firerescuefin]

Nailed.It.

What can you say to any of this?

Morons back slapping each other, laughing at their own stupid inside jokes, feeling one with with one another in a common bond of insignificance and frustration. To the loser with the sad joke/analogy about plying 'em with drinks to get 'em to do what you want 'em to do: Too bad that's how it is for you and the kind of women you hang with.

It comes down to this: It is really hard to make one's way in the world. It is brutal and if one isn't moving forwards, one is falling behind. That is the volatility and speed of change in the first world in which we live. Ultimately, underlying this Pinkbike incident has less to do with misogyny than it has to do with saving one's self from being crapped on in a world where one can no longer keep up, or was unprepared for, or feels unrewarded for, or whatever. Feelings real or imagined. When that happens, it doesn't feel so bad as long as one can misuse, abuse or disrespect somebody/anybody else and for whatever reason. And it feels even better when another moron, sharing the same frustrations and despair, can agree to it too. The larger the confederacy of dunces becomes, the more the powerless outsiders become the empowered insiders. Pinkbike pandered to this crowd and for that they are guilty of editorial cowardice in sacrifice to the mouse clicks of the Internet mob.

There isn't a loss of civility in the modern world. The festering internet mob is not representative of the whole, they simply have a ready outlet in which to gather and be heard. There are plenty of civilized, mannered, thoughtful persons in the modern world that know what and how to conduct themselves, with presence of mind and self restraint. Ladies and gentlemen such as these do not indulge in the cheap way out because it is vulgar, beneath their ideas of dignity and disrespectful to their own ideals of self worth. They do this because the strength of character they have each strove and sacrificed to develop is more satisfying, more correct and true to their own identity and ideals of who they see themselves to be.

The miscreants and misfits that indulge in the coarse behavior and attitudes gone wrong in this Pinkbike fiasco are the poor slobs treading sewage in a cesspool of their own making. Better them than me. Survival for them is anyways and means it takes not to be the last worthless nobody on the bottom rung of a ladder to nowhere. The way they are is why these stupid bastards are there in the first place.

[mjb266]

It's not hard to find advertisers. It's also not difficult to contact advertisers. Spend 2 less minutes on this forum and go do some typing that will make a difference.

Remember that butcher guy who got his ass handed to him for threatening to run over cyclists? Pinkbike is not immune...infact they are more vulnerable.

As a father of two future riders (I hope) I'm going to contact some sponsors with my thinking.

[Aaron O]

Death threats, doxxing and other violent rhetoric go far beyond the vein of just stupid Internet comments. These are folks terrorizing people simply because, of all things, they didn't like how a person wrote a bike review.

I agree its insane, but not worth ire? Then what is?

I don't mean to sound callous, I just read it as standard internet flame wars that go too far. It's just hard for me to take it seriously...almost every comment section seems like KKK propaganda to me. It's awful, but it's just this internet white noise...and I think most of it learn to tune it out...or to focus on places like this, where even when we debate we do it with more intelligence and respect.

[FlashUNC]

I don't mean to sound callous, I just read it as standard internet flame wars that go too far. It's just hard for me to take it seriously...almost every comment section seems like KKK propaganda to me. It's awful, but it's just this internet white noise...and I think most of it learn to tune it out...or to focus on places like this, where even when we debate we do it with more intelligence and respect.

From Amanda's post. If this counts as "Internet white noise" then I fear what counts as actual threats:

I was told by one classy gentleman that he would “show [me] rape culture” if I didn’t shut my “fat ass feminist bitch face”. Beautiful.

To chalk this up to "Well, that's just the Internet" perpetuates a potentially serious problem. You have someone essentially threatening to rape someone if they don't shut up. Over a bike review.

The mind boggles.

[Aaron O]

From Amanda's post. If this counts as "Internet white noise" then I fear what counts as actual threats:

I was told by one classy gentleman that he would “show [me] rape culture” if I didn’t shut my “fat ass feminist bitch face”. Beautiful.

To chalk this up to "Well, that's just the Internet" perpetuates a potentially serious problem. You have someone essentially threatening to rape someone if they don't shut up. Over a bike review.

The mind boggles.

I get where you're coming from - but to me that's just an angry, impotent buffoon mouthing off on line because in the real world no one probably listens to a thing he has to say.

I'm not trying to excuse the "author", or say it's acceptable. it isn't. But that is what happens with unfettered, anonymous access to free speech. Many of the loudest are going to be the ones on the fringe.

[FlashUNC]

I get where you're coming from - but to me that's just an angry, impotent buffoon mouthing off on line because in the real world no one probably listens to a thing he has to say.

I'm not trying to excuse the "author", or say it's acceptable. it isn't. But that is what happens with unfettered, anonymous access to free speech. Many of the loudest are going to be the ones on the fringe.

The problem is you can't sort out who's being a buffoon and who's going to follow through with it.

And even if the buffoon is just mouthing off, his intent to scare the ever-living hell out of whoever he's talking to.

Combine that with just a cursory doxxing, and this kind of stuff get very real, very fast. I'll agree that 9 times out of 10 its just an idle Internet threat, but what's being threatened is often serious enough that you can't just be flip about it. "Oh boys will be boys, those scamps online, threatening with all the raping."

Its a serious problem and not saying anything about it just lets it fester.

[Aaron O]

The problem is you can't sort out who's being a buffoon and who's going to follow through with it.

And even if the buffoon is just mouthing off, his intent to scare the ever-living hell out of whoever he's talking to.

Combine that with just a cursory doxxing, and this kind of stuff get very real, very fast. I'll agree that 9 times out of 10 its just an idle Internet threat, but what's being threatened is often serious enough that you can't just be flip about it. "Oh boys will be boys, those scamps online, threatening with all the raping."

Its a serious problem and not saying anything about it just lets it fester.

This isn't entirely new...the scope is different because of the technology. Talk radio has seen this kind of stuff for decades...from father coughlin on. I can think of the one DJ who was killed...the guy they made the movie Talk Radio about...but that's one in a hundred years of radio. I see the internet babble as the same...sure, there might be the one genuine lunatic...but flame wars, over reactions and gross stupidity seem endemic to the medium and inevitable.

I understand why you see my attitude as flip, but I don't know that the problem is really that serious. I'm not saying it's boys will be boys, or cute. It's offensive and disgusting. I also see it as somewhat inevitable and meaningless.

Should that guy get a knock from a local official showing him the hairy eye? Absolutely...but there are just more morons than there are officers to give the hairy eye. Unfortunately I think we have to accept that this stupidity is a price of anonymous, unregulated communication.

[Louis]

One "buffoon" like that addressing me in a similarly threatening manner would be a IMO a huge deal. There's no way a normal society or group of individuals (Internet or otherwise) can accept that sort of behaviour as the price of living with others.

[Aaron O]

One "buffoon" like that addressing me in a similarly threatening manner would be a IMO a huge deal. There's no way a normal society or group of individuals (Internet or otherwise) can accept that sort of behaviour as the price of living with others.

I don't disagree on principle, but I think it's the reality. I've had people threaten me, make anti-semitic comments, etc. on line. I considered the source...probably a mis-fit teenager rebelling with parents that ignore him.

I don't disagree that this should be unacceptable...but it is the norm, and I don't see a way that can change.

[Louis]

It isn't the norm on this forum, and if it were to become so I'd be long gone.

I'm sure there are plenty of forums where it might be (online war-games forums come to mind as likely candidates) and that's unfortunate, but I guess that's a different issue.

[Aaron O]

It isn't the norm on this forum, and if it were to become so I'd be long gone.

I'm sure there are plenty of forums where it might be (online war-games forums come to mind as likely candidates) and that's unfortunate, but I guess that's a different issue.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all...and that's why i like it here too.

[Louis]

i'm not disagreeing with you at all...and that's why i like it here too.

+1

[FlashUNC]

This place is definitely a rarity. I think we can all agree on that.

[NickR]

Bingo. What she has described went far beyond comments in poor taste.

FWIW, Padraig's view - http://redkiteprayer.com/2015/05/pinkgate/

Good read...

[rab]

It isn't the norm on this forum, and if it were to become so I'd be long gone.

I'm sure there are plenty of forums where it might be (online war-games forums come to mind as likely candidates) and that's unfortunate, but I guess that's a different issue.

Yes, exactly, and a sign that despite all of the ridiculous anonymous internet idiotics, there is plenty of good left in the various mediums we live/play in. Unfortunately the stupidity often gets the most attention, but the reason it does is because most of us recognize it for what it is. Not an acceptance of it as right.

Now off to figure out what online wargames forums are.

[dolface]

I'm gonna mouth off a a bit here so feel free to skip this post :)

As a relatively new forum member I'm really impressed that most posters (who seem to be male) are coming down on Amanda's side.

Excusing rapey jokes as "oh he was just being sarcastic" means we're choosing not be inclusive; how do you think a bad-ass 10-year old girl would feel reading that "like your girlfriend after too many shots" thing? What about a bad-ass 10-year old boy? If you're male and have never worried about being raped if you "had too many shots" how do you think your best female friend would feel?

Amanda cops to being deliberately provocative and course she was, as a writer for an advertising-supported site "engagement" was her #1 metric for success. So she learned how to push buttons and did so but she never got rapey in her writing.

When she called out bad behavior and rapey writing, instead of owning up to it and saying "you're right, we ····ed up, here's how we'll do better from now on" she got shut down and "managed out" because her editors were too cowardly to address they issue like grownups.

And now she's been doxxed and threatened and Gamergated (citation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brianna_Wu#Gamergate-related_harassment.)

We have an opportunity here to make a small difference, to point our beloved sport with all it's beauty and drama and suffering and triumph in a direction that makes it accessible to everyone or to just to a few.

I know which way I want it go.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

[verticaldoug]

This has really struck a raw nerve with me. It just seems to be indicative of an overall decline in what we like to refer to as "civilized society". It seems to me that we are witnessing a general decline in standards of behavior, manners, mores and respect for others. All across the spectrum.

It may not be fair but I place a lot of the blame on "social" media ( the most unsocial thing ever invented) which leads people to believe that everyone deserves a voice and that every voice is meaningful. Well they aren't. And in order to try and rise above the babble they resort to ever more out there behavior and comments.

Everyone wants to be famous and noticed. Everyone wants to be on TV, and there just don't seem to be any limits on acceptable behavior and no filters or self control.

The LOUD profanity in public places has just become unbearable and this video shows what is wrong with almost any public event nowadays.

Just awful.

Ignorance was bliss.
I don't think there is an overall decline in behavior, social media just makes it more visible to a wider audience. If anything, we are finally beginning to address issues that previously were never discussed in 'polite' society. 20 years ago, females reporters were expected to get harassed and a reason some organizations chose not to put them on the beat at sporting events. We've come part of the way, but still have a long way to go.

Another case in point is the scene in 'Animal House' when the frat boy goes upstairs to see a drunk girl passed out. A devil shows up on his shoulder urging him to be bad, an angel shows up on the other shoulder urging him to be good. I tend to think this scene would not make the editors cut if it were made today.

As for Padraig's article on Pinkgate in RKP, it may be the best thing he has written.

[fuzzalow]

Bingo. What she has described went far beyond comments in poor taste.

FWIW, Padraig's view - http://redkiteprayer.com/2015/05/pinkgate/

FWIW, I read it and thought it was fluff. No need on his part be incendiary but neither was there any insight to my part as a reader apart from the familiar and the stale.

His piece, his call. And my post, my opinion.

[mg2ride]

My problem with all this is that when you establish a timeline of events it becomes apparent that she had one common reason for making the comment about rape culture, quitting and posting her blog.

And that reason has nothing to do with protecting women or anyone else.

All her actions were taken directly because they stopped publishing her.

ATMO, she is simply bitter, hypocritical and revengeful.

[JStonebarger]

My problem with all this is that when you establish a timeline of events it becomes apparent that she had one common reason for making the comment about rape culture, quitting and posting her blog.

And that reason has nothing to do with protecting women or anyone else.

All her actions were taken directly because they stopped publishing her.

ATMO, she is simply bitter, hypocritical and revengeful.

Uh huh. Pinkbike has since pulled her previously published stuff. Is that also just because Amanda is so bitter? Or maybe a reaction to her hypocrisy? At very least, good thing Pinkbike isn't revengeful!

Since Amanda's the problem and Pinkbike the force of sweetness and light, let's get back to helping them with their sales pitch/reviews: "Brand X, easier than date rape!"

[bcroslin]

I get where you're coming from - but to me that's just an angry, impotent buffoon mouthing off on line because in the real world no one probably listens to a thing he has to say.

I'm not trying to excuse the "author", or say it's acceptable. it isn't. But that is what happens with unfettered, anonymous access to free speech. Many of the loudest are going to be the ones on the fringe.

Keep in mind that just a few months ago there was an incident with a nut job bragging about how he was going to kill some cops on instagram and then 5 or 6 hours later he killed two cops in NYC. Just because 99.99% of people making threats on the internet don't follow through doesn't mean their isn't the disturbed .01% that will.

Amanda also mentioned that one of the threats was serious enough that she contacted law enforcement and they're going to charge the person responsible.

[Black Dog]

My problem with all this is that when you establish a timeline of events it becomes apparent that she had one common reason for making the comment about rape culture, quitting and posting her blog.

And that reason has nothing to do with protecting women or anyone else.

All her actions were taken directly because they stopped publishing her.

ATMO, she is simply bitter, hypocritical and revengeful.

Wow, simply wow. :eek: Blame the victim. By the way, they stopped publishing her after she called out the comment in the review.

[bcroslin]

Excusing rapey jokes as "oh he was just being sarcastic" means we're choosing not be inclusive; how do you think a bad-ass 10-year old girl would feel reading that "like your girlfriend after too many shots" thing? What about a bad-ass 10-year old boy? If you're male and have never worried about being raped if you "had too many shots" how do you think your best female friend would feel?

Amanda cops to being deliberately provocative and course she was, as a writer for an advertising-supported site "engagement" was her #1 metric for success. So she l

This. Anyone who doesn't think there's a double-standard with how women reporters/ bloggers/ influencers on the internet are treated ask yourself this question: how many times do you think David Brooks or Paul Krugman have been threatened with rape because of what they've written?

[Aaron O]

Keep in mind that just a few months ago there was an incident with a nut job bragging about how he was going to kill some cops on instagram and then 5 or 6 hours later he killed two cops in NYC. Just because 99.99% of people making threats on the internet don't follow through doesn't mean their isn't the disturbed .01% that will.

Amanda also mentioned that one of the threats was serious enough that she contacted law enforcement and they're going to charge the person responsible.

This is a numbers game. A certain percentage of people are wired wrong, raised wrong or both. I think when it's both the problems really start. Anyway a certain percentage are loons...and some are dangerous. I think we make a mistake when we blame the internet for that - if it hadn't been the Internet, it would have been radical Islam, or dungeons and Dragons, or Ozzy osbourne, or the matrix.

Yes - some people are sick bastards and they're dangerous.

I'm glad the person is being checked out - what they wrote was sick and unacceptable. I also think the odds are overwhelming that it's a garden variety loud mouthed idiot.

[oldpotatoe]

My problem with all this is that when you establish a timeline of events it becomes apparent that she had one common reason for making the comment about rape culture, quitting and posting her blog.

And that reason has nothing to do with protecting women or anyone else.

All her actions were taken directly because they stopped publishing her.

ATMO, she is simply bitter, hypocritical and revengeful.

Your timeline is off.

http://azrapeprevention.org/sites/azrapeprevention.org/files/07-SACASA.pdf

[Aaron O]

In the interests of furthering better, saner and more congenial internet discourse, I propose the following guidelines to whether one should post a comment/opinion to the internet:

Q: Do I think this issue is very simple?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do I think I know everything there is to know about this issue?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Is it conceivable that someone would pay me for expertise connected with this issue?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Is this issue connected to other complicated issues, or is it independent?

If you think it's independent, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: do more than 5% of my political opinions result in comparing a current elected politician to Hitler or Stalin?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Does someone who disagrees with me probably also have some valid points of view?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: When looking at my own opinions over an extended period, have they changed or evolved over time?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do I occasionally ask myself if I’m a hyprocrite, or spot hypocrisy or inconsistencies in my own views? Do I experience selfdoubt about this, or related issues?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do I think people who disagree with this position are morally bankrupt and evil for doing so? Are they so wrong that I should threaten or insult them for having that opinion?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do you think it’s OK not to have opinions about some issues? Are there are a lot of things you don’t have opinions about because you don’t think you know enough to have an opinion?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Did I read far enough to read this question?

If yes, you are an idiot and shouldn’t have an opinion.

[fuzzalow]

^ Boy, that was fecund. I read to the end of that and....and...uh?!? Hey waitta minute! I think I know what you did here...

[Aaron O]

Does having to look up the word fecund make me an idiot, or does admitting I had to look it up make me not an idiot?

[Black Dog]

Oh, so sage and ultimately sanguine. I like the cut of your jib. +1.25


In the interests of furthering better, saner and more congenial internet discourse, I propose the following guidelines to whether one should post a comment/opinion to the internet:

Q: Do I think this issue is very simple?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do I think I know everything there is to know about this issue?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Is it conceivable that someone would pay me for expertise connected with this issue?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Is this issue connected to other complicated issues, or is it independent?

If you think it's independent, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: do more than 5% of my political opinions result in comparing a current elected politician to Hitler or Stalin?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Does someone who disagrees with me probably also have some valid points of view?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: When looking at my own opinions over an extended period, have they changed or evolved over time?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do I occasionally ask myself if I’m a hyprocrite, or spot hypocrisy or inconsistencies in my own views? Do I experience selfdoubt about this, or related issues?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do I think people who disagree with this position are morally bankrupt and evil for doing so? Are they so wrong that I should threaten or insult them for having that opinion?

If yes, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Do you think it’s OK not to have opinions about some issues? Are there are a lot of things you don’t have opinions about because you don’t think you know enough to have an opinion?

If no, you are probably an idiot and should be quiet.

Q: Did I read far enough to read this question?

If yes, you are an idiot and shouldn’t have an opinion.

[earlfoss]

Saw fecund and read it as feces because I'm immature.

[fuzzalow]

Does having to look up the word fecund make me an idiot, or does admitting I had to look it up make me not an idiot?

The self-awareness to even conceive and pose those questions precludes you from the likelihood of ever falling prey to satisfying that description.

[Louis]

Speaking of fecundity, I have a story about this.

Years and years ago (I'd guess about 40) when I was a kid I used to do crossword puzzles with my father (in french). One day we came across the word "infecond." I asked him what it meant and he explained. He then told me a bit of trivia that I've never forgotten:

The dictionary we used when doing the crosswords was a 1955 Petit Larousse Illustre. He said that long ago the sentence used to provide an example of "infecond" in the Larousse was "Les sables infeconds du Sahara." In other words, "the infecund sands of the Sahara." However, years later when folks realized the importance of the oil deposits in the Middle East Larousse dropped that example and switched to something else. In the 1955 version example phrase is "terre infeconde" or "infecund earth." (a while back he gave me the dictionary, and I brought it to the US and I just looked that up.)

For kicks I just now Googled "les sables infeconds du" (I didn't add "Sahara" because I didn't remember exactly which desert name went with the story.) Amazingly enough, the very first hit was from a French online version of the 1905 Petit Larousse Illustre. You can see a screen-shot of the image below. At the very bottom is the example phrase. I have a hard time believing that after all these years I remembered the story and phrase well enough to find it, and it sure looks like my father's story is true.

When I talk to him this weekend I'll have to tell him what I found - I bet he'll remember the original phrase. We'll see if he remembers telling me about it.