OT: entitled parents - entitled kids

[velomonkey]

Total Rant - I coach u9 and u11 rec lacrosse in mixed income town. We partition the parents - the kids are rad, I love doing it.

This year I took on an additional team - two catholic schools to go against the private schools. Oddly enough the defense is from one school, the offense from another. Doing 3 on 4 drills and no one is scoring - all shots from the outside and D and goalie are stopping it all. The D is too big and a wind up shot doesn't scare them. It works in Rec league, doesn't work on a good team (most kids fear a fast stick, a good player doesn't).

I go over to one of the parents who was supposed to coach, and he doesn't, and tell him it's not working - no one is scoring. He tells me hiss schools offense players are purposely at 50%. Yea, right . . . He yells out to his kid "Hey Johnny . . . just shoot. Forget all this just shoot." Kid ignores the play I told them to do, shoots from the outside and . . . . . misses.

Here is how I learned how to race . . . find people who were fast. Faster than me. Go against them, train with them, race against them. Side note: this guy does things like the NYC triathlon - a place where people get an award for finishing.

Rant over . . . . .

[josephr]

you miss 100% of the shots you don't take....not that I'm taking sides with your parent, but having two kids in LAX for the past 4 years, I can tell say I've seen a lot of players not take shots because the coach is emphasizing execution of a designed play. Of course, the worst part about it is the kid who's supposed to take the shot happens to be the coaches' kid who couldn't score in a soccer goal.

I don't have the patience, so I have to say you're awesome for coaching and keep at it!

[Louis]

http://www.npr.org/2015/05/04/404164325/silence-on-the-sidelines-an-mlb-insiders-manifesto-on-youth-sports

[velomonkey]

you miss 100% of the shots you don't take....not that I'm taking sides with your parent, but having two kids in LAX for the past 4 years, I can tell say I've seen a lot of players not take shots because the coach is emphasizing execution of a designed play.

Yea, well put - the only play I was telling them to do was to get on the inside. That was it. They have good shots, heck, way better than average shots given their age - 7th grade. It works in Rec league when you have teams of new kids, defense players scared of the ball and some poor sap who doesn't want to be goalie.

Over 2 practices we did maybe 70 4 on 3s - they scored 3 times. In this case outside shots just didn't work.

Makes me appreciate my U9 kids who want to "just shoot" (after 3 passes).

[josephr]

Over 2 practices we have done probably 70 4 on 3s. They have scored 3 times. 3 times on 70 instances where you have the advantage. . . . the math speaks for itself.

I think that miss 100% of the shots you don't take is attributed to Wayne Gretzky....but I've not googled it to be sure.

Our coach last year used some of these shooting drills last year -- they were 7th-8th grade state champions last year. :banana:

http://beginnerlacrosse.com/lacrosse-shooting.asp

[Ken Robb]

My father played pro soccer in Scotland, Canada and the USA until he was 40 years old. He tried helping coach kids teams here in La Jolla for one season but couldn't stand the nonsense the head coaches were trying to teach the kids: Bicycle kicks for 9 year-olds who can't execute a chest trap, etc. Too much "experience" watching tv and not enough playing experience with real skilled players.

[mg2ride]

ATMO, Most people are too stupid to coach youth sports
jus sayin!

[velomonkey]

Our coach last year used some of these shooting drills last year -- they were 7th-8th grade state champions last year. :banana:

http://beginnerlacrosse.com/lacrosse-shooting.asp

A great site - yea, these kids all have wicked wind up side shots - which any good D kid with a long stick can stop - and they did. A 7th grade rec league player gets a little scared. Their overhand is good, but not accurate enough - so it goes above the waist and, as an ex hockey player, to me that's not a shot - it's a pass to the goalie.

[velomonkey]

http://www.npr.org/2015/05/04/404164325/silence-on-the-sidelines-an-mlb-insiders-manifesto-on-youth-sports

This is a great, great article. I've heard of it, but this is the first time reading it. Thanks for the post.

[velomonkey]

Most people are too stupid to coach youth sports
jus sayin!

Awe thanks man, I think you're rad, too.

[verticaldoug]

At 7th grade, our program no longer uses parents as coaches and hired an outside coach. By 7th grade, the kids should be getting it, and many times the parents don't. Getting rid of parents really changes the team dynamics for the better.

Honestly, it sounds like the players need back to basics and haven't spent enough time against a bounce back or a wall. My guess is the boys are running 50% and throwing loopy passes because they probably aren't accurate enough to cut and throw at 100%. 1v1 has a place in lacrosse, but the ball is always faster.

[fuzzalow]

One of the strangest and most disturbing of experiences was involvement to high school sports from me/our time raising a family in affluent suburbia. That entire scholastic sports milieu was among the most perverse, misguided and self-reinforcing travesties of K-12 education. There isn't anywhere near the attention and importance placed to a kid's ability to do math as much as to how well the kid can do some meaningless and obscure athletic skill.

Thankfully, even the time back then of a parent bellowing instruction from the sidelines during a game was falling into disfavor and receding. That entire show of some idiot, eyes bugged out, red faced and veins bulging from his neck ready to explode was an exercise in conceit that was repulsive. Because the entire show was intended for the other parents at the game that him and his kid were winners. What a fool.

The resource balance and emphasis is wrong. It weighs too heavily on scholastic sports and not to scholastic competence and achievement. The entire sports complex creates these little stages where some students get to parade their little vanities to proud, misguided parents irrespective of the fact that Johnny don't read or write too good. Then the day of reckoning comes where they have to enter the university system with a more globally competitive student base and they get the living crap beat out of them. The best they could hope for is to perpetuate their little sports bubble by continuing their athletic career during their stay at university. And there will be no living forthcoming to be earned in an insignificant sport a student spent more time on than on the unpleasantness of learning math.

Such is the path of immediate gratification and least resistance. As a parent I had the ability to change the emphasis and focus for my own. Every decision a parent makes has the potential to bet their kid's future on that decision being right. I'm not sure some parents are thinking that far ahead.

This is in no way personal for me. My and my family's time for this K-12 is past. But I am still interested in public policy and the wreck our public education system has become so I wish to stay attuned. What I can actually do about it, other than talking about it, I am not sure about.

[oldpotatoe]

Awe thanks man, I think you're rad, too.

He forgot ATMO..he's channeling Richard again

[Jgrooms]

I think that miss 100% of the shots you don't take is attributed to Wayne Gretzky....but I've not googled it to be sure.



Our coach last year used some of these shooting drills last year -- they were 7th-8th grade state champions last year. :banana:



http://beginnerlacrosse.com/lacrosse-shooting.asp


This is excellent interview. He covers whats wrong with youth sports & how to fix it.

[William]

ATMO, Most people are too stupid to coach youth sports
jus sayin!

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fighting/poking-with-stick-smiley-emoticon.gif







William

[Ti Designs]

Coachable is an interesting word, it means the ability to turn off all assumptions, entitlements and that pesky ego, and deal with the idea that you're not where you want to be, yet. It means there are steps to be taken, and you have to trust someone else to know when and how to take those steps.

It's hard for most people to turn off the assumptions, parents often make terrible coaches because they assume they can do what they're teaching - parents can do anything, can't they??? One of the things I love about coaching cycling on the road is that I'm kept honest because I'm always getting tested. Each ride with a new client includes at least a few minutes of coach testing, perhaps they should do the same for lacrosse coaches...

There's an element of respect that can't be overlooked when talking about coaching. I don't spell out the whole program with my first year clients, they need to learn to trust that each step is built upon the steps that came before it. That respect has to be earned, but it's what I see lacking in a lot of coaching these days. Nobody is afraid that dad is gonna take up a stick and show 'em how it's done... One of my proudest moments on the bike was a ride with two junior guys, one I had worked with the year before, the other was his first ride with me. On a climb the new kid started upping the tempo. The other kid, knowing I would make my point about speed over the top of the hill, said "don't do that..." and nodded in my direction.

[cfox]

One of the strangest and most disturbing of experiences was involvement to high school sports from me/our time raising a family in affluent suburbia. That entire scholastic sports milieu was among the most perverse, misguided and self-reinforcing travesties of K-12 education. There isn't anywhere near the attention and importance placed to a kid's ability to do math as much as to how well the kid can do some meaningless and obscure athletic skill.

Thankfully, even the time back then of a parent bellowing instruction from the sidelines during a game was falling into disfavor and receding. That entire show of some idiot, eyes bugged out, red faced and veins bulging from his neck ready to explode was an exercise in conceit that was repulsive. Because the entire show was intended for the other parents at the game that him and his kid were winners. What a fool.

The resource balance and emphasis is wrong. It weighs too heavily on scholastic sports and not to scholastic competence and achievement. The entire sports complex creates these little stages where some students get to parade their little vanities to proud, misguided parents irrespective of the fact that Johnny don't read or write too good. Then the day of reckoning comes where they have to enter the university system with a more globally competitive student base and they get the living crap beat out of them. The best they could hope for is to perpetuate their little sports bubble by continuing their athletic career during their stay at university. And there will be no living forthcoming to be earned in an insignificant sport a student spent more time on than on the unpleasantness of learning math.

Such is the path of immediate gratification and least resistance. As a parent I had the ability to change the emphasis and focus for my own. Every decision a parent makes has the potential to bet their kid's future on that decision being right. I'm not sure some parents are thinking that far ahead.

This is in no way personal for me. My and my family's time for this K-12 is past. But I am still interested in public policy and the wreck our public education system has become so I wish to stay attuned. What I can actually do about it, other than talking about it, I am not sure about.

I agree with you to some extent, but there are A LOT of parents who treat academics just like a sport. They pay for professional coaching (just like jock parents), place ridiculous demands on teachers (coaches), place ridiculous pressure on their kids (just like jock parents), and expect greatness to sprout from average ability (just like jock parents). The motivation is the same for both parties: a belief that a child's achievements are a reflection of how awesome/smart/athletic the parents are.

And, yes, school is more important than sports, but honestly, your average kid is probably going to learn more practical life skills from participating on a team sport than they will reading Chaucer or struggling with a differential equation.

[tumbler]

http://www.npr.org/2015/05/04/404164325/silence-on-the-sidelines-an-mlb-insiders-manifesto-on-youth-sports

+1. I was just about to post that story.

[velomonkey]

Yea, all good points - it is very odd - as Fuzz said it's self-reinforcing. When a father yells out to his kid "just shoot, don't listen and just shoot" and the kid does that and then misses - I'd be willing to bet that the conversation in the car ride home wasn't

"well, coach does have a point, with this team shots from the outside don't work and since any player needs to progress as they get older - let's listen to coach."

instead I'm sure there was some excuse, somehow I was wrong, listen to dad and worry not, you're the best. F that guy, son.

Oh, by the way, that kid also has an illegal stick. I told him to get it fixed, he didn't - we got our game tomorrow, my thought is to have the ref inspect the stick before first face-off.

[oldpotatoe]

Yea, all good points - it is very odd - as Fuzz said it's self-reinforcing. When a father yells out to his kid "just shoot, don't listen and just shoot" and the kid does that and then misses - I'd be willing to bet that the conversation in the car ride home wasn't

"well, coach does have a point, with this team shots from the outside don't work and since any player needs to progress as they get older - let's listen to coach."

instead I'm sure there was some excuse, somehow I was wrong, listen to dad and worry not, you're the best. F that guy, son.

Oh, by the way, that kid also has an illegal stick. I told him to get it fixed, he didn't - we got our game tomorrow, my thought is to have the ref inspect the stick before first face-off.

I can't even spell lacrosse..but what's an 'illegal' stick? I see they are different for different positions but...., wrong one for position?

Curious

[velomonkey]

I can't even spell lacrosse..but what's an 'illegal' stick? I see they are different for different positions but...., wrong one for position?

Curious

There are a bunch of things - length, pocket depth, head size that will make a stick illegal. This kid's particular stick is illegal in that the head of the stick is too narrow at the lowest point - the ball won't fall out - you can literally turn the stick upside down and the ball will stay in the stick. What this allows is the player can then do totally crazy doges and spin the stick all over the place and not lose the ball. A defense player can also stick check (hit the offense players stick with their stick) - and the ball will still stay in. Most kids just let out their netting a bit to get an advantage (which the ball can't fall below the head or it's illegal), but then your shot can be a bit off cause of a too deep pocket, if the head on the stick is too narrow you still get the ball locked in, but your shot isn't affected.

One has to actually look for an illegal head like this, some companies push the rules a bit too close, this particular head was created to serve as an illegal head and any head is removable from a stick. Put it this way, you wouldn't find a head this illegal at Dick's.

[verticaldoug]

I can't even spell lacrosse..but what's an 'illegal' stick? I see they are different for different positions but...., wrong one for position?

Curious

generally pocket is too deep or strung in a way which keeps the ball from rolling out. if the ball can't be easily dislodged from the pocket by a checking playing it is an unfair advantage.

Velomonkey, A stick check is a good idea and give the ref headsup. The kid is cheating and the kid knows he is cheating. Time to sit him down. If you sit him down, Dad will go ape····. Let a Ref do it, and if Dad goes Ape···· on the ref, it makes it easier to get rid of Dad. The real challenge is how to get Dad off the coaching squad. It hurts the whole team.

D

[rugbysecondrow]

I reluctantly coached my daughters U6 beginner soccer team. I say reluctantly because I wanted her to get experience with another adult/coach and, frankly, I know squat about soccer (no hands, tackling is frowned upon, flop on the ground if slight contact is made...got it). In any event, no other parent signed up and the day before practice was to start, we were notified that there was no coach, so either step up or the team would be cancelled. I stepped up.

The kids were great, I mean they were 5 and 6 year old girls, but they were great. The parents, they were a few steps removed from reality and rude. I got flack from them for various things, which was funny coming from parents who sat on their hands when a real coach was needed. Second, the number of parents who already had decided which travel team little Emma was going to play on was astounding, especially since little Emma was frequently kicking the ball into the wrong goal, sitting on the ground contemplating the after game snack and futzing with pony tails.

I played sports growing up. I enjoyed them, but they weren't my life. I played 2-3 months of basketball, then football, then baseball, then whatever...then the cycle would start over again. I was average at everything, but had fun. I stopped playing in high school when the adults sucked the fun out of the activities, that is also when I found grudge music and girls, so there is that.

Rugby brought me back to sports, and I am very thankful for that. A sport for the players, by the players. We had coaching, but when the half starts, it is just you, your teammates and the guy across from you. Plus, I was in college, an adult, I chose to play.

I don't care if my kids play sports, I want them to develop competencies and enjoy activities, but sports I can take or leave. There are so many kids pushed into Football, but for what? They will play their last game when they are 17 and never, ever play that sport again. To be coached by some washed up guy who wants regain high school glory? What good is that? Soccer, Rugby, Golf, Tennis, Cycling, Running, Archery, Shooting, Rock Climbing etc etc. you can develop skills which you can enjoy into and even through adulthood.

Just my two cents

[shovelhd]

I coached youth basketball. City CYO, middle school, high school, and AAU. Great experience but it was a grind. When my kid got out, so did I.

[oldpotatoe]

There are a bunch of things - length, pocket depth, head size that will make a stick illegal. This kid's particular stick is illegal in that the head of the stick is too narrow at the lowest point - the ball won't fall out - you can literally turn the stick upside down and the ball will stay in the stick. What this allows is the player can then do totally crazy doges and spin the stick all over the place and not lose the ball. A defense player can also stick check (hit the offense players stick with their stick) - and the ball will still stay in. Most kids just let out their netting a bit to get an advantage (which the ball can't fall below the head or it's illegal), but then your shot can be a bit off cause of a too deep pocket, if the head on the stick is too narrow you still get the ball locked in, but your shot isn't affected.

One has to actually look for an illegal head like this, some companies push the rules a bit too close, this particular head was created to serve as an illegal head and any head is removable from a stick. Put it this way, you wouldn't find a head this illegal at Dick's.

Thanks, interesting.

[merlinmurph]

That Mike Matheny interview is great:

"He's now the manager of the St. Louis Cardinals, but he's almost as well-known for a code of behavior he wrote after he retired from the big leagues and agreed to coach his son's youth baseball team. The rules were for the parents, who, Matheny says, are the biggest problem in youth sports.

This is exactly what a friend who coaches kids has told me many times, and more recently, rugby just above.

His letter to the parents is priceless:
http://www.mac-n-seitz.com/teams/mike-matheny-letter.html

I'm sure coaches across America have taken that letter and used it as a template for their own purposes. In fact, my friend mentioned above said his 14-year-old's baseball travel team has the same exact rules/objectives/whatever.

[ultraman6970]

If the OP is too competitive obviously the other parent will get under his skin.

Probably the other parent has a successfull life in all his aspects and sports is just having fun???

[fuzzalow]

I agree with you to some extent, but there are A LOT of parents who treat academics just like a sport. They pay for professional coaching (just like jock parents), place ridiculous demands on teachers (coaches), place ridiculous pressure on their kids (just like jock parents), and expect greatness to sprout from average ability (just like jock parents). The motivation is the same for both parties: a belief that a child's achievements are a reflection of how awesome/smart/athletic the parents are.

And, yes, school is more important than sports, but honestly, your average kid is probably going to learn more practical life skills from participating on a team sport than they will reading Chaucer or struggling with a differential equation.

The K-12 system is total FUBAR. There is no school district anywhere where a teacher doing an exceptional job with kids gets pressure from parents to be even better still! The private tutor industry is thriving in affluent areas as parents of means will take whatever steps necessary to backfill the incompetence, indifference and inadequacy that largely predominates the culture of the K-12 profession. I say culture because the good teachers suffer at the hands of the incompetent majority and teacher unions to maintain the status quo and peer pressure towards teaching talent to not make waves. This extracurricular tutorship is an adjunct for some kids, not all need it but that a grow industry thrives feeding off of K-12 is the crux of the matter. This as additional to the already mandatory SAT Exam Prep & Drill courses almost every kid in an affluent school district undergoes.

Sure, scholastic sports teaches valuable lessons. But it serves a far greater purpose as a distraction and placebo to parents looking for participation and gratification with their child's scholastic career. Sports activity in what was a healthy, minor aspect of student life now stands in equal stature and priority to scholastic competence and achievement. All a ruse.

My experience from NY school district code number 368, one of the wealthiest school districts in the nation.

[verticaldoug]

The K-12 system is total FUBAR. There is no school district anywhere where a teacher doing an exceptional job with kids gets pressure from parents to be even better still! The private tutor industry is thriving in affluent areas as parents of means will take whatever steps necessary to backfill the incompetence, indifference and inadequacy that largely predominates the culture of the K-12 profession. I say culture because the good teachers suffer at the hands of the incompetent majority and teacher unions to maintain the status quo and peer pressure towards teaching talent to not make waves. This extracurricular tutorship is an adjunct for some kids, not all need it but that a grow industry thrives feeding off of K-12 is the crux of the matter. This as additional to the already mandatory SAT Exam Prep & Drill courses almost every kid in an affluent school district undergoes.

This isn't any different than China, Japan, Korea, Singapore. Young children are going to cram schools all day on Saturday and Sunday. You see 'jocks' doing a year PG at private schools waiting for college, in Japan they call it Ronin. Study for another year to take the exam until you get into the school of your choice.

I do not think a SAT has been successfully administered in China this year. Numbers I have seen suggest 1 in 10 cheat on the exam. It is big business.

Everything you dislike about affluent education in NYC is probably true in every affluent area globally.

If a fringe sport gives your child an edge in being accepted at a school, people will think it is a golden ticket.

[malcolm]

I know squat about lacrosse but I've watched my daughter play for the past 6 years or so and have learned a little, very little. My observations watching from 6 or 8 years old to now 14 and starting when they didn't have enough girls to form two teams to the point where they now have lots including league play to very high level club play. Lacrosse is a pretty complicated game that requires lots of stick skill/hand eye coordination and you really need to be almost ambidextrous to play at the highest levels. This lends its self to coaches that teach the girls methods to win vs fundamentals of the game especially at the lower less experienced levels. A perfect example is the team that runs the full length of the field and never passes. With little girls it works because they can't pass or catch, but they never learn to throw and catch on the run and when they play a real team they get trounced. Little kids need to learn how to play the game, not just to win.

I've found lacrosse parents to overall be less crazy and over involved than all star baseball, cheer leadind etc. There are always exceptions and it's still fairly new in the southeast.

Thanks for taking the time to coach youth sports. I have neither the time nor demeanor but admire those that do. If you do a good job those kids will remember you forever.

[rugbysecondrow]

The K-12 system is total FUBAR. There is no school district anywhere where a teacher doing an exceptional job with kids gets pressure from parents to be even better still! The private tutor industry is thriving in affluent areas as parents of means will take whatever steps necessary to backfill the incompetence, indifference and inadequacy that largely predominates the culture of the K-12 profession. I say culture because the good teachers suffer at the hands of the incompetent majority and teacher unions to maintain the status quo and peer pressure towards teaching talent to not make waves. This extracurricular tutorship is an adjunct for some kids, not all need it but that a grow industry thrives feeding off of K-12 is the crux of the matter. This as additional to the already mandatory SAT Exam Prep & Drill courses almost every kid in an affluent school district undergoes.

Sure, scholastic sports teaches valuable lessons. But it serves a far greater purpose as a distraction and placebo to parents looking for participation and gratification with their child's scholastic career. Sports activity in what was a healthy, minor aspect of student life now stands in equal stature and priority to scholastic competence and achievement. All a ruse.

My experience from NY school district code number 368, one of the wealthiest school districts in the nation.

I have elementary aged children, and they have pushed so much down to the K-3 level, that it surprises me. The teachers seem like they are constantly adjusting to the various metrics and test scores, rather than the needs of the children. Its not their fault, they are beholden to the system. FUBAR is right. Listen to teachers who have been around for more than 10 years, the changes are astounding. K used to be half day, juice and cookie, learning the alphabet etc etc, now the expectations are full day, sit at desk, reading and math competency and college prep (Common Core Y'all). With all the changes at the k-12 level, what is surprising is that college has changed very little in the last 50 years. They are pushing "college ready" and 'college prep' down to the K level, but do we really have a problem with college admissions and unqualified students? If so, is it that parents have taught the kids to be students, but not how to manage life?

I am tempted to talk to my daughter about the skilled trades as she gets older. A) there will be fewer because of the push to send everybody to college. Pay will rise for these skilled professions. Have you ever had a plumber, electrician or HVAC person to the house for less than $200, regardless of the job? B) If she wants to have a family, she can have flexible hours based on family needs and the jobs she takes. C) Start off life with much less student loan debt...real freedom. D) you can live anywhere. Any city in any part of the country needs skilled trades people.

Is it better to pay $50K+ for a under graduate college education to be a teacher (making $38K a year) or learn a trade where you can earn $75-$175 per hour?


This is tangental, but it seems parents have driven sports and education to levels which are not sustainable. They amount of homework she has had from grades k-3 shocks me. I asked why once, the response "parents request it. If there isn't homework, they complain to the school." This ties together with the suicide thread a few weeks back.

[carpediemracing]

I haven't read through the thread but over the last few years I've had time to think about this as a stay-at-home dad (quit my job 3 years ago to stay at home). I have a BA, I was in IT for 10 years, bike shop before that, now wondering what I want to do.

1. I know someone who makes (made?) solid money, $500k a year salary without 401k etc. I happened to see some financials for him (work related and the stuff ended up in front of me) and he was totally set at the time, 401k, etc. That's on paper. In real life his health is horrible, his kids are totally messed up, wife also. Back when I saw the financial stuff I was like, "Okay, this is the goal". Now I think about all his problems and I think, "Oh, man, I am so glad that's not me." It's only a correlation, of course, but I think that there's at least some kind of relationship here. He lived for work. Kind of like a bike shop owner but he made money :)

2. This year I paid $55/hour for 12 hours (minimum time frame) for each of the two Park & Rec guys that I had to hire to hold a race. That's solid money for each guy, 1.5 times I paid for the police officer. Wiped me out but illustrated to me what a "regular city employee" can make. I can't imagine trying to work on budgets when it costs so much per person.

3. I totally think that technical education (mechanic, HVAC, welding, etc) are viable alternatives to college. I was raised with an education-biased outlook and although before school I went and interviewed at all sorts of non-college things (3 branches military, Hoover, car mechanics, gas station, considered working full time at shop, etc) I discounted them. I didn't understand. If I'd gone into something like military, law enforcement, fire dept, etc, I'd be retiring right now and I probably would be much better off fiscally.

4. A friend's son is a (good) welder. He works about half the year but pulls in $5-6k a week while he works. He does certified welding, like bridges and such, and those projects are under incredible time/quality constraints. He works crazy hours when he works. Then he doesn't work for a while. He buys stuff like 35-40' RVs, motorcycles, goes on trips, enjoys life.

[William]

I have elementary aged children, and they have pushed so much down to the K-3 level, that it surprises me. The teachers seem like they are constantly adjusting to the various metrics and test scores, rather than the needs of the children. Its not their fault, they are beholden to the system. FUBAR is right. Listen to teachers who have been around for more than 10 years, the changes are astounding. K used to be half day, juice and cookie, learning the alphabet etc etc, now the expectations are full day, sit at desk, reading and math competency and college prep (Common Core Y'all). With all the changes at the k-12 level, what is surprising is that college has changed very little in the last 50 years. They are pushing "college ready" and 'college prep' down to the K level, but do we really have a problem with college admissions and unqualified students? If so, is it that parents have taught the kids to be students, but not how to manage life?

I am tempted to talk to my daughter about the skilled trades as she gets older. A) there will be fewer because of the push to send everybody to college. Pay will rise for these skilled professions. Have you ever had a plumber, electrician or HVAC person to the house for less than $200, regardless of the job? B) If she wants to have a family, she can have flexible hours based on family needs and the jobs she takes. C) Start off life with much less student loan debt...real freedom. D) you can live anywhere. Any city in any part of the country needs skilled trades people.

Is it better to pay $50K+ for a under graduate college education to be a teacher (making $38K a year) or learn a trade where you can earn $75-$175 per hour?


This is tangental, but it seems parents have driven sports and education to levels which are not sustainable. They amount of homework she has had from grades k-3 shocks me. I asked why once, the response "parents request it. If there isn't homework, they complain to the school." This ties together with the suicide thread a few weeks back.


Slight thread drift: But you made me think of a very good book...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PlFrZwmxL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

When Matthew Crawford finished his doctorate in political philosophy at the University of Chicago, he took a job at a Washington think tank. "I was always tired," he writes, "and honestly could not see the rationale for my being paid at all." He quit after five months and started doing motorcycle repair in a decaying factory in Richmond, Va. This journey from philosopher manqué to philosopher-mechanic is the arc of his new book, Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work. It's appropriate that it arrives in May, the month when college seniors commence real life. Skip Dr. Seuss, or a tie from Vineyard Vines, and give them a copy for graduation.

The graduates won't even skim Shop Class, of course. But maybe, five years from now, when they can't understand why their high-paying jobs at Micron Consulting seem pointless and enervating, Crawford's writing will show them a way forward. It's not an insult to say that Shop Class is the best self-help book that I've ever read. Almost all works in the genre skip the "self" part and jump straight to the "help." Crawford rightly asks whether today's cubicle dweller even has a respectable self. Many of us work in jobs with no discernible products or measurable results. We manage brands and implement initiatives, all the while basing our self-esteem on the opinions of others......

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2009/05/heidegger_and_the_art_of_motorcycle_maintenance.ht ml









William

[cfox]

The K-12 system is total FUBAR. There is no school district anywhere where a teacher doing an exceptional job with kids gets pressure from parents to be even better still! The private tutor industry is thriving in affluent areas as parents of means will take whatever steps necessary to backfill the incompetence, indifference and inadequacy that largely predominates the culture of the K-12 profession. I say culture because the good teachers suffer at the hands of the incompetent majority and teacher unions to maintain the status quo and peer pressure towards teaching talent to not make waves. This extracurricular tutorship is an adjunct for some kids, not all need it but that a grow industry thrives feeding off of K-12 is the crux of the matter. This as additional to the already mandatory SAT Exam Prep & Drill courses almost every kid in an affluent school district undergoes.

Sure, scholastic sports teaches valuable lessons. But it serves a far greater purpose as a distraction and placebo to parents looking for participation and gratification with their child's scholastic career. Sports activity in what was a healthy, minor aspect of student life now stands in equal stature and priority to scholastic competence and achievement. All a ruse.

My experience from NY school district code number 368, one of the wealthiest school districts in the nation.

Umm, I think you might be engaging in a bit of hyperbole. I grew up the son a teacher in a wealthy suburb of Boston. I live in Fairfield County, CT. Maybe district 368 is pretty effed up, but it certainly doesn't reflect my experiences. The schools in my district are exceptional. My Dad's school is exceptional. Sure, there are a few bad apple teachers, but for the most part they are excellent. And, despite their excellence, parents are still very demanding. The incompetent majority? And you are dead wrong about the tutoring industry. The majority of kids getting tutored in wealthy areas are highly performing students; their parents just want more. My friend is a full time math tutor. She does not have a single client who is struggling, just kids who parents desire that elusive AP.

I really think you are exaggerating the influence of sports in wealthy suburbs. Yes, it may occasionally seem out-of-hand, but we are not talking about illiterate kids from poor districts getting fast-tracked to football scholarships, we are talking about some lawyer's kid who plays lacrosse.

[rugbysecondrow]

Slight thread drift: But you made me think of a very good book...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PlFrZwmxL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg









William


Book has been ordered. BOOM!

Thanks my man!

[Mzilliox]

ATMO, Most people are too stupid to coach youth sports
jus sayin!

this is great, hits it perfect. most will never be important in sports, so the best thing is have fun.

[christian]

Umm, I think you might be engaging in a bit of hyperbole. I grew up the son a teacher in a wealthy suburb of Boston. I live in Fairfield County, CT. Maybe district 368 is pretty effed up, but it certainly doesn't reflect my experiences. The schools in my district are exceptional. My Dad's school is exceptional. Sure, there are a few bad apple teachers, but for the most part they are excellent. And, despite their excellence, parents are still very demanding. The incompetent majority? And you are dead wrong about the tutoring industry. The majority of kids getting tutored in wealthy areas are highly performing students; their parents just want more. My friend is a full time math tutor. She does not have a single client who is struggling, just kids who parents desire that elusive AP.

I really think you are exaggerating the influence of sports in wealthy suburbs. Yes, it may occasionally seem out-of-hand, but we are not talking about illiterate kids from poor districts getting fast-tracked to football scholarships, we are talking about some lawyer's kid who plays lacrosse.

This mirrors my experience in NY district 100. Also, I never knew the districts had codes.

[William]

Book has been ordered. BOOM!

Thanks my man!

Nice, it's a good thought provoking read imo. It was recommended to me by a forum bud a few years ago. Just passing on the good forum karma info.







William

[MadRocketSci]

But I like my cubicle job

[54ny77]

the book review itself by the slate author is comical.

sounds like it was written by a 1st year college student who, in the words of u2, still hasn't found what he's looking for.

Nice, it's a good thought provoking read imo. It was recommended to me by a forum bud a few years ago. Just passing on the good forum karma info.
William

[fuzzalow]

Umm, I think you might be engaging in a bit of hyperbole. I grew up the son a teacher in a wealthy suburb of Boston. I live in Fairfield County, CT. Maybe district 368 is pretty effed up, but it certainly doesn't reflect my experiences. The schools in my district are exceptional. My Dad's school is exceptional. Sure, there are a few bad apple teachers, but for the most part they are excellent. And, despite their excellence, parents are still very demanding. The incompetent majority? And you are dead wrong about the tutoring industry. The majority of kids getting tutored in wealthy areas are highly performing students; their parents just want more. My friend is a full time math tutor. She does not have a single client who is struggling, just kids who parents desire that elusive AP.

I really think you are exaggerating the influence of sports in wealthy suburbs. Yes, it may occasionally seem out-of-hand, but we are not talking about illiterate kids from poor districts getting fast-tracked to football scholarships, we are talking about some lawyer's kid who plays lacrosse.

Hey man I'm not trying to rain on your parent-teacher conference. You sound like you are still in the thick of K-12. Best of luck and hope it comes out as you desire.

In the bigger picture the U.S. lags behind the rest of the world in educational results (look down below 30 in the ranks). These deficiencies didn't come out of nowhere.

Pisa 2012 results: which country does best at reading, maths and science? (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/dec/03/pisa-results-country-best-reading-maths-science)

[cfox]

Hey man I'm not trying to rain on your parent-teacher conference. You sound like you are still in the thick of K-12. Best of luck and hope it comes out as you desire.

In the bigger picture the U.S. lags behind the rest of the world in educational results (look down below 30 in the ranks). These deficiencies didn't come out of nowhere.

Pisa 2012 results: which country does best at reading, maths and science? (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/dec/03/pisa-results-country-best-reading-maths-science)

Hey, no sweat. The outcome I desire is for my kids to be happy, school will play a part in that, but I don't lose sleep at night worrying about where my 10yr and 13yr old are going to college. Or plumbing school for that matter.

As far as where we stand as a whole vs other countries, you of course are correct. But you were specifically referencing these terrible affluent school districts that have been ravaged by sports programs. Despite your disillusionment, if you were to measure the wealthiest school districts vs. the world, I think they'd fare quite well.

[fuzzalow]

Hey, no sweat. The outcome I desire is for my kids to be happy, school will play a part in that, but I don't lose sleep at night worrying about where my 10yr and 13yr old are going to college. Or plumbing school for that matter.

Your kids won't have a clue as to what will make them happy for at least a decade or more. And there is only very little you can do to help them find that answer for themselves. All you can do is try to keep as many options open as possible so that they might have the opportunity to choose whereas you or I may not have had the blessing to run in such an open field.

As far as where we stand as a whole vs other countries, you of course are correct. But you were specifically referencing these terrible affluent school districts that have been ravaged by sports programs. Despite your disillusionment, if you were to measure the wealthiest school districts vs. the world, I think they'd fare quite well.

No, I never said ravaged, I said distracted. Give a parent something to cheer about in sports and they might not notice the lackluster results in academics.

No way to prove or disprove the latter. Hypothetically: even if the wealthiest districts, with all the benefits and advantages wealth confers, can only play to a tie academically with the rest of the world then that speaks poorly to the job we are doing teaching our young to compete globally. Nassau County and Fairfield County are the 12th and 39th wealthiest counties, respectively, in the wealthiest nation in the world. Formidably blessed. Unforgivable that kids from these type of districts be laggards to any nation in the world markets.

I have elementary aged children, and they have pushed so much down to the K-3 level, that it surprises me. The teachers seem like they are constantly adjusting to the various metrics and test scores, rather than the needs of the children. Its not their fault, they are beholden to the system. FUBAR is right.

Agree. It is to be expected in rigging the efforts of the student body towards the singular goal & result of compiling a test score which has become a measure and a means to survival for the K-12 profession. Not done for the benefit of the children but for the survival and prosperity of the K-12 profession.

And in fairness to the K-12 profession this is to be expected and not wholly to be faulted. It is a normal response for complex adaptive systems that in response to an imposed standard some organizations will become sophisticated to meet it. Or conversely, sophisticated to avoid it. I'd opine that the K-12 profession has mobilized both tacks as strategy. I do not know how the incentives could be changed to avoid, or redirect, this happenstance.

If a fringe sport gives your child an edge in being accepted at a school, people will think it is a golden ticket.

Yes, that sport is lacrosse. And so the long arch back to the OP topic. The circle is complete.

[velomonkey]

Yes, that sport is lacrosse. And so the long arch back to the OP topic. The circle is complete.


Correct - except that Lacrosse is no longer a fringe sport. A white, preppy sport - sure. Fringe? No. It's very popular in affluent and upper middle class areas. But yes, you are correct on the other points. One note: swimming and hockey - probably because the good programs cost so much - the parents are the worst of any parents I have ever witneessed.

[cfox]

Correct - except that Lacrosse is no longer a fringe sport. A white, preppy sport - sure. Fringe? No. It's very popular in affluent and upper middle class areas. But yes, you are correct on the other points. One note: swimming and hockey - probably because the good programs cost so much - the parents are the worst of any parents I have ever witneessed.

When I swam competitively, my mom had a name for some of the more, er...enthusiastic moms. She called them "stopwatch moms." Yikes, some of those ladies were scary. And this was along time ago, so this isn't some recent thing.

Hockey is interesting; it seems to consume families to where their entire social structure revolves around the sport. We've lost touch with several families we were close with once their kid started playing hockey. And, yes, hockey parents are nuts. I witnessed it firsthand when my aunt sent my cousin to bed without dinner for not being aggressive enough. Didn't some dad knock out a kid in the handshake line a few years back?

It is logical to assume that parental insanity correlates with the expense of the sport. Daddy is plunking down a lot of cheese, he expects results! But my son, bless his little soul, has chosen a sport more expensive than hockey, and the parents involved, as a whole, are the nicest, most helpful crowd I've met in any sport.

[malcolm]

Some of the problem is the whole family is centered around the kid. In my opinion the children are part of a family unit not the center of the universe. The fact that families cancel family vacations, etc so a kid can play all star baseball amazes me. I think a lot of it is frustrated parents living vicariously through their kids. I enjoy watching my daughter play lacrosse, she is good at it and seems to enjoy it, but it will not hi-jack our entire family.