Campy guys - hub help please

[Clydesdale]

New to me black Record hub wheels. Installed and running through gears and about mid cassette and up I get a loud noise (first thought was something rubbing) but only when the cranks/possibly cassette are in certain positions - not consistent on cranks, didn't mark cassette yet to test. Forward pedaling not an issue on the stand, but backpedaling sets it off and then it stays while freewheeling unless the cranks are moved maybe 2-3 inches. I can't get it to do it in the bigger gears - like 16 and down. Chain, Cassette and Spacers are all good, the noise is most definitely in the hub. Doesn't seem to cause much friction as the wheel still spins pretty freely.

Could one of the pawls be sticky? Other thoughts?

[FlashUNC]

If it were the pawls, it would be happening regardless of gear, no? The pawls dont know what gear you're in or engage differently depending on gear.

Pulley wheels on the RD? Chain issue?

[oldpotatoe]

New to me black Record hub wheels. Installed and running through gears and about mid cassette and up I get a loud noise (first thought was something rubbing) but only when the cranks/possibly cassette are in certain positions - not consistent on cranks, didn't mark cassette yet to test. Forward pedaling not an issue on the stand, but backpedaling sets it off and then it stays while freewheeling unless the cranks are moved maybe 2-3 inches. I can't get it to do it in the bigger gears - like 16 and down. Chain, Cassette and Spacers are all good, the noise is most definitely in the hub. Doesn't seem to cause much friction as the wheel still spins pretty freely.

Could one of the pawls be sticky? Other thoughts?

Could be sticky pawls(oil, not grease), loose cogset, freehub body not tight(drive side axle end is 17mm but left threaded-lefty tighty), hub assembled incorrectly(has it recently been OVH or anything?).

[Clydesdale]

Could be sticky pawls(oil, not grease), loose cogset, freehub body not tight(drive side axle end is 17mm but left threaded-lefty tighty), hub assembled incorrectly(has it recently been OVH or anything?).

Thanks Old Potatoe, I'll check those things at lunch. I have not done anything to them since I got them so I'll check tightness on everything and report back. I don't mind overhauling if needed, just wondering what to suspect first.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks Old Potatoe, I'll check those things at lunch. I have not done anything to them since I got them so I'll check tightness on everything and report back. I don't mind overhauling if needed, just wondering what to suspect first.

I think it might be a loose FH body but hard to say w/o seeing it. 5mm allen in the axle end, 17mm open end wrench..lefty-tighty.

[Clydesdale]

I think it might be a loose FH body but hard to say w/o seeing it. 5mm allen in the axle end, 17mm open end wrench..lefty-tighty.

If so, would moving up the cassette and increasing the chain angle put enough torque on it to cause the noise? I think that makes sense... that's the part that had me confused.

[oldpotatoe]

If so, would moving up the cassette and increasing the chain angle put enough torque on it to cause the noise? I think that makes sense... that's the part that had me confused.

Yes it would...but it could be 3-4 things..

[ultraman6970]

1 ... a sticky chain link?

2.. sure the chain is not kind'a trapped in the rd cage?

3 ... wrong chain?

[lhuerta]

Ur hanger alignment might be off too, causing chain to skip off pulleys when u back pedal and then remaining in disengaged position when u pedal forward, thus the noise.

[Clydesdale]

Sorry if I wasn't clear - the noise starts during a backpedal but then continues as long as the crank stays in that position, so neither the chain or the der pulleys are moving while the hub makes the noise. The noise doesn't happen at all and everything runs smooth and quiet in the drivetrain when pedaling forward. I think OldPotatoe probably nailed it but I'll know more after lunch.

[Clydesdale]

Tightened freehub - no change

Removed free hub... lots of grease. Removed pawls, cleaned, lubed, reinstalled. Noise possibly slightly better but still there.

Playing around I noticed that while the wheel is spinning and pedals are not moving, I can make the noise much louder by pressing against the top of the cassette. Worse in some places than others, but pressure against the outside of cassette definitely produces noise at the hub. I can't detect any looseness in hub, free hub body or cassette but something must be moving. Noise is a loud somewhat grinding or rubbing sound that to my ear sounds like it is in time with the freewheel clicks, but louder. I'm still marginally confident it is something in the free hub/pawls/ring but... :confused:

Worn-freehub body? Worn cassette rings? Cassette is older but was running perfectly on previous wheels.

[oldpotatoe]

Tightened freehub - no change

Removed free hub... lots of grease. Removed pawls, cleaned, lubed, reinstalled. Noise possibly slightly better but still there.

Playing around I noticed that while the wheel is spinning and pedals are not moving, I can make the noise much louder by pressing against the top of the cassette. Worse in some places than others, but pressure against the outside of cassette definitely produces noise at the hub. I can't detect any looseness in hub, free hub body or cassette but something must be moving. Noise is a loud somewhat grinding or rubbing sound that to my ear sounds like it is in time with the freewheel clicks, but louder. I'm still marginally confident it is something in the free hub/pawls/ring but... :confused:

Worn-freehub body? Worn cassette rings? Cassette is older but was running perfectly on previous wheels.

One or both bearings in the FH worn out? Seal at base of freehub body gooned up, hitting hub shell? Seal in hub shell seated in notch/groove? Bearing not upside down? Donno.

The FH body is one piece aluminum, the pawls are steel and can wear the 'seats' where the pawl sits in the FH body.

[Clydesdale]

I'll pull the freehub again and give it a close look. Bearings sound like a good thought. I wondered about the free hub hitting the hub shell but for lack of a better reason it sounds wrong for that? It's not a constant rub but more like a grind or click. I even considered the freehub shell hitting the spokes at one point but they don't overlap. Upside down bearing is worth checking also. Thanks for the iddon't think the the hub has a lot of miles on it so I would be surprised if the pawls wore grooves and it all looked smooth when I had them out but at this point I'm willing to explore every possibility. Thanks for the ideas.

[cmbicycles]

What do the fh bearings feel like, any roughness spinning by hand?

[Clydesdale]

Everything taken down and cleaned, greased/lubed... though I did not remove the bearings or the geared ring. No obvious flaws that I can find. Reassembled tight and smooth. Here's where I am now...

It's not the cassette. I can spin the wheel holding the axle and the hub body with no cassette installed and make it growl by "pulling" on the freehub as the wheel spins. I can't really feel or see any play in the freehub, but there has to be some, yes? If so, then that would seem to indicate either the base of the hub is loose or (more likely?) that the internal part that slides over the axle is sloppy?

The only other thing I noticed is that the wire that holds the pawls in place is out of shape a little and seems like it's not a perfect fit, but it covers all three pawls and holds them in place fine so I assume it is doing it's job? If the wire's not perfect, could it be allowing the pawls to move sideways enough to cause a noise? Seems like a reach but...

[oldpotatoe]

Everything taken down and cleaned, greased/lubed... though I did not remove the bearings or the geared ring. No obvious flaws that I can find. Reassembled tight and smooth. Here's where I am now...

It's not the cassette. I can spin the wheel holding the axle and the hub body with no cassette installed and make it growl by "pulling" on the freehub as the wheel spins. I can't really feel or see any play in the freehub, but there has to be some, yes? If so, then that would seem to indicate either the base of the hub is loose or (more likely?) that the internal part that slides over the axle is sloppy?

The only other thing I noticed is that the wire that holds the pawls in place is out of shape a little and seems like it's not a perfect fit, but it covers all three pawls and holds them in place fine so I assume it is doing it's job? If the wire's not perfect, could it be allowing the pawls to move sideways enough to cause a noise? Seems like a reach but...

I hate to have you take the FH off again..but with it off, stick your finger in the bearings in the top and bottom and see if they are smooth. Maybe the lower is toasted/partially disintegrated. The 2 bearings in the FH body slide over the axle. AND that wee pawl spring is easily obtainable.

I also wonder if the FH body is an older one, onto the newer 'lobed' hub axle. That is possible, older Fh onto newer axle..whereas the opposite that makes more sense(cuz the older FH bodies sometimes split), new FH onto older axle, is not. Then I wonder if the FH body is split. Was it really hard to get the cogset off? Older FH body pawl carrier dark in color..newer one shiny aluminum, same color as FH body.

Send it to me and I'll figure it out...hard via the interweb.

[Clydesdale]

I'll pull it off again at lunchtime and snap some pics. The cassette was not hard to install or remove but I'll check the fh body again carefully.

[cmbicycles]

I'll pull it off again at lunchtime and snap some pics. The cassette was not hard to install or remove but I'll check the fh body again carefully.

Here's the best diagram I could find online. Only one set of bearings on either side, and ringed not cartridge. They seem like they are in good shape, no roughness, flat spots, looseness that I can feel.

The hub shell has two bearings, shown in the diagram, but there are also two cartridge bearings in the FH. The FH bearings can sometimes wear out and mimic symptoms similar to the hub bearings going bad. Like OP said, hard to diagnose without seeing or putting hands on it sometimes.

[Clydesdale]

I'll pull check FH bearings today and report back.

[Clydesdale]

I think OP had it nailed early on...
Pulled the top bearings, they seem good. Bottom FH bearings have some roughness in them and I am guessing that has to be responsible for the noise.

Now - how the (insert expletive) do you get that clip off to remove the bottom bearings!?

[cmbicycles]

It's easiest to just replace the freehub. If you have a bearing puller and a source for new ones it could be done, but it's generally destined to be a consumable.

[oldpotatoe]

I think OP had it nailed early on...
Pulled the top bearings, they seem good. Bottom FH bearings have some roughness in them and I am guessing that has to be responsible for the noise.

Now - how the (insert expletive) do you get that clip off to remove the bottom bearings!?

'Blind' keeper ring..'almost' impossible to get it out. Sharpened spoke, modified screw driver, sharpened dental pick(90 degree bend part, sharpened end, under the thing..it rotates when you try to get under it is the issue), lotsa patience...I've gotten one out..

'May' be easier to replace FH body..much more $ tho.

You don't need a bearing puller, the top one is easy to get out, the bottom one is too if ya get the clip out. 6708(I think) bearings, common size..Vecchio's, Wheels manufacturing, others, has them.

[Clydesdale]

I'll most likely replace the freehub, but now that I'm this far with the one I have it's hard to give up. I hate knowing that one piece of wire is "winning" right now ;) I'm not blessed with much patience but I am long on stubborn.

Thanks for all the ideas and guidance. I knew I would get answers here.

[Look585]

Now - how the (insert expletive) do you get that clip off to remove the bottom bearings!?

Measure (depthwise) where the snapring sits in the FHbody. Drill small hole (2mm) at that spot from the outside. Use 1.5mm allen key to push from the outside and get the ring out of the groove then pull with a dental pick.

Fill the hole with hot glue or something when finished. You can use it again when the inner bearing dies again in 30,000KMs.

[oldpotatoe]

Measure (depthwise) where the snapring sits in the FHbody. Drill small hole (2mm) at that spot from the outside. Use 1.5mm allen key to push from the outside and get the ring out of the groove then pull with a dental pick.

Fill the hole with hot glue or something when finished. You can use it again when the inner bearing dies again in 30,000KMs.

That's a good idea...should be easy, aluminum and one wee hole won't hurt anything. 'Should' have made the clip with 'eyes'...