A mostly great situation..

[dave thompson]

I’ve sent my Kirk back to Dave to have the “Terraplane” curved seat stays put onto the bike and have a color change. Dave uses Cycle Fantasy for his paintwork, but the owner’s father recently passed away, which has greatly delayed Dave’s frames being painted. Today I get an e-mail from Dave saying there is bad news/good news. The bad news is that Cycle Fantasy is getting out of the bicycle painting business, or was drastically cutting back on work, so they would no longer be the painters for Kirk Frameworks. Now I think this to too bad because Cycle Fantasy did some really great paintwork. Take a look at dnovo’s bikes or DBRK’s Hello Kitty to see what Cycle Fantasy could do. Great stuff.

Then as I read Dave’s e-mail further, the other shoe, ‘good news’, falls. Joe Bell is now the official paint shop for Kirk Frameworks! So, it’s like I’m getting a brand new bike all over again! With a Joe Bell paint job! I think my year has just been made!

[Smiley]

Thats like telling you that both Washington state teams are in the tourney and then you find out that they are both gone. Just kidding big guy as my Terps are well done too. If it makes you feel any better I too had picked the Zags to do much better after I watched them beat my Terps in December of last year. How can those guys get beat that bad.
Anyway its a coup for Kirk to get JB to paint his frames, yours will be very nicely done.

[Ozz]

Smiley,

There were actually three Washington state teams in the tourney...Gonzaga, U of W, and Eastern WA.

They were just gone so fast you might have missed them...:mad:

My Zags just didn't show up to play. Next year, yeah, wait 'til next year!

Dave - congrats on the new paint!

[Kevin]

Dave,

Life is good.

Kevin

[dohearne]

Smiley writes: Just kidding big guy as my Terps are well done too

Smiley,

The two most frustrated groups of people are those who bet on SU and those that bet against. At least the terps won their tournament!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . have a web site so I can take a look at some of their work?

BBDave

[dave thompson]

Originally posted by BumbleBeeDave
. . . have a web site so I can take a look at some of their work?

BBDave
The only Joe Bell websites I could find is through CampyOnly here: http://www.campyonly.com/joebell.html

[Tom]

Apparently after seeing my Trek the Queen Bee don't look so good no more? Heh heh heh.

[dnovo]

I am sorry to see Cycle Fantasy getting out of the bike painting business (and presumably changing their name if they are going to stay in business. I know he used to do paint work on Ferraris, so who knows what's next for him.) No loss for Dave Kirk going with Joe Bell. The paint job he did on my Rivendell is superb. Having said that, however, the loss of Cycle Fantasy is too bad. The paint job on my "fancy" Kirk is as good as anything anywhere, and compares with ease to Joe at his finest. Dave N.

[Needs Help]

DT,

I read that roadbikereview thread where you were getting pounded about the benefits of the ST rear. They made some good arguments, and I was trying to come up with some counter arguments, but I couldn't work it out in my head. I really liked how Serotta used to have the deflection numbers for the DKS, ST, and classic rear all on a page together. It also would have been very helpful if they explained how they got those deflection numbers and what kind of tests they performed.

Now the numbers are gone. What are we supposed to make of that? Do they no longer feel comfortable saying there is more deflection with the ST rear? They used to say there was no benefit to carbon in the rear triangle. So, it's hard to tell what the omission means. I wish they had some good information about that on the website. After all, to buy the ST rear, you need to buy into the concept, and for people who are considering an ST rear, it would be helpful to know more of the technical details.

[Smiley]

I had asked Ben to quantify the deflection numbers for better clairity of how the performance of the three rear end work or move. With the end of the DKS I guess its pretty moot to have the numbers posted. I will admit that my Hors Categorie does move in a nice compliant fashion and smoothes out the rough stuff on the road. I have ridden the ST rear on an Ottrott and it seams do do something although in comparison to my DKS its not as pronounced. Not bad but not to my expectations. Without any choice I'd buy the ST rear , with a choice I'd buy the DKS rear in a second. I know most people think I'm in the can on DKS and I am as I really think it was a great idea that was given up on too soon. Look I can't be the only fool that thinks this way either.

[dave thompson]

Boy they sure did shell me, didn't they? Even Mark Hickey from Habanero Bikes was on my case about how the DKS/ST read end couldn't possibly work.

I don't think the deflection numbers are important, per se, because it's not how the ST rear end works, it's the fact that it does work. The theory that Dave Kirk put into practice about having the rear absorb the road irregularities like the front end does, thus having both wheels 'on the ground' and allowing the bike to track better, is what makes the DKS/ST so loved by users. To explain it to a bunch of neanderthals on the internet was a losing proposition.

IMO, Serotta is not, and has not, really marketed the benefits of the ST to the public sufficiently. Why? I don't know.

[David Kirk]

I'm not sure how this post ended up in DKS land but I'll try to bring it back around..........if only for a few minutes.

I just wanted to be sure that everyone understands where the business Cycle Fantasy stands at this point. They are still very much in the painting business. The painter Dave is taking a break to deal with the loss in his family as well as to get his own health in order. So if you are looking for a repaint I still very much recommend that you give them a call.

I want to take the oportunity to thank Dave and Colleen for all they have done for me. they are truely special people.

I also want to thank them for being so candid with me about their situation. They understand how important it is to me to have a reliable painter and they knew they could no longer assure me of that.

Please consider them for paint work. You can call Colleen at (714) 637 6146.

I also want to tip my hat to Joe Bell. He is stepping up for me in a big way. I look forward to our relationship.

Thanks for the soap box.

Dave

[Ken Lehner]

Originally posted by dave thompson
I don't think the deflection numbers are important, per se, because it's not how the ST rear end works, it's the fact that it does work.

So the fact that nobody can provide a rational explanation of how this technology actually works doesn't bother you? Nor the fact that any possible deflection is lost in the noise when compared to the deflection of the tire, saddle, your shorts, and your butt?

Having an open mind is a wonderful thing, as long as it is not so open that your brains fall out...

[Climb01742]

how many hors categories can dance on the head of a pin?

[dave thompson]

Originally posted by Ken Lehner
So the fact that nobody can provide a rational explanation of how this technology actually works doesn't bother you? Nor the fact that any possible deflection is lost in the noise when compared to the deflection of the tire, saddle, your shorts, and your butt?

Having an open mind is a wonderful thing, as long as it is not so open that your brains fall out...

Ken: A rational explanation of how the DKS/ST rear end works was provided by Dave Kirk, the inventor of the DKS while he worked at Serotta, in an earlier post on the old forum. How something works impresses me far less than if it works, and I don't care. Perhaps in my addled old mind I may not understand all the technicalities. I owned a Hors Categorie and it sure felt far different than the other two Serottas I've had, or any other bike I've owned for that matter.

So, the short answer is no. It doesn't bother me. You can postulate all you wish about 'lost in the noise', but until you've ridden something equipped with that feature, all you can do is suppose.

I'm not a Serotta apologist, I don't even own one now. But I will tell you that if a 60cm Hors came up for sale, in would be mine in a New York minute!

[Needs Help]

Ken,

Interesting. I've never heard the “lost in the noise” argument before, but I guess if I could put 2 and 2 together, I could have figured that out myself. Thanks.

If I were going to defend the ST as a valid concept, I guess my reply would be that the human body can detect subtle variations in forces traveling through the bike; and the butt, saddle, and rear triangle flex all "feel" a certain way and are known by the rider. If you add more shock absorption to the seat for instance by getting a softer seat, or if you get a seat post with some deflection, I think a rider could notice the subtle change. It may be the case that the rider couldn't detect the difference just by riding down the block and back, but it seems possible over a 100 mile ride there would be a noticeable difference in the cumulative effect. If people can tell the difference between a few millimeters in tire width, why not a few millimeters in seat stay deflection?

Therefore, if in tests, the ST rear exhibited more deflection than the classic rear triangle, I think it would have some merit. Also, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with buying the ST rear for its sexy good looks and hoping that any noticeable differences in deflection would be an added bonus--of course you have to own up to that.

[Needs Help]

...oops. Sorry, double post

[Ken Lehner]

Originally posted by dave thompson
Ken: A rational explanation of how the DKS/ST rear end works was provided by Dave Kirk, the inventor of the DKS while he worked at Serotta, in an earlier post on the old forum. How something works impresses me far less than if it works, and I don't care. Perhaps in my addled old mind I may not understand all the technicalities. I owned a Hors Categorie and it sure felt far different than the other two Serottas I've had, or any other bike I've owned for that matter.

Thanks, I checked the old forum to see what I could learn. Seems that the DKS could deflect up to 11mm, the ST like 3mm, and the HT like 1mm. So, the ST deflects on the order of .1"?

Here's a question: when you get on an ST Legend, what happens to the stays, the rear tire, and the saddle? I'm guessing that the rear tire compresses slightly (to increase the contact patch to match your weight). Do the stays deflect? What happens when your rear tire rolls over a seam in the road that is, say .5"? Does the tire compress, do the stays deflect, does the saddle deflect, or or all three? How much?

I see that many claims were made for how well the ST/DKS cornered while descending. While I understand that there are reasons why pro cyclists do and don't ride particular components and technologies, why wouldn't they all be using some form of this technology? Even the slightest benefit should be of help at their level.


So, the short answer is no. It doesn't bother me. You can postulate all you wish about 'lost in the noise', but until you've ridden something equipped with that feature, all you can do is suppose.

Are you saying that until I, or anyone, has experienced a particular physical phenomenon, all we can do is suppose?

[Needs Help]

Originally posted by Ken Lehner
While I understand that there are reasons why pro cyclists do and don't ride particular components and technologies, why wouldn't they all be using some form of this technology? Even the slightest benefit should be of help at their level.

Well, I guess Greg Lemond could have taken the same approach, but he didn't. Also, something may not translate well to a racing bike, e.g. it's heavier, but could be very beneficial for recreational riders. I assume most racing bikes are built for speed, and comfort is not of primary importance.

[vaxn8r]

Just get a Calfee or OCLV. ST is just a full-carbon wanna-be;)

[M_A_Martin]

This seems like a fairly simple engineering problem if you had all the specs (you're not doing the initial engineering to figure out how to make it happen, just the result...reverse engineering as it were).
Knowing the deflection of the stays, (you would need the rate of deflection, or spring rate...or whatever they call it), that would leave all the stuff for the WHEELS and the tires (and that has to exist out there somewhere...) to figure out what force was transferred to the seat. The seat is a constant (the exact same seat on each bike would flex the same, at the same rate for the same force). As is the weight of the rider (for ease of initial calculation)

Remember,

Physics is Phun on the Phorum!

Ginger
(Not an engineer...and I refuse to play one on TV)