New wheel problem

[twors]

New wheels arrived last friday and finally got the new bike built this last monday night. Took the new bike out tuesday after work for a shake down run and I get this crazy pinging sound coming from the front wheel. I stop mid ride and call the wheel builder, he says wheel is settling in...I'm not sure. Continue to ride for 25 miles, wheel still sounds like pop corn in the microwave. Its definitely the front wheel, I've swapped the front with another wheel and all was good. Spokes feel tight and even in tension. Tied a drop of oil at point were spokes cross with same results. I'm pretty much affraid to ride the wheel at this point. Here is a small video I recorded tonight. Any ideas?
https://youtu.be/9f9asR67UOQ

[gone]

My first thought before I watched the video was that the builder didn't properly stress relieve the spokes and they're unwinding but after watching the video it sounds like something else is going on, almost like a bearing in the hub is seizing or catching. Does the wheel spin freely?

I'd definitely not feel comfortable riding it until you get it sorted.

[msl819]

Did you send that video to him? Is that when he told you it was the wheel setting in?

[eddief]

What's the builder think about the video? I've heard the pinging of spokes settling in, but was never able to dance to the tune. Someone is zooming you me thinks.

[twors]

Wheels appears to spin smoothly with no load. White Industries T11 hub laced 2X on H+Son Archetype 32 hole rim. Video has been sent to wheel builder, waiting for reply.

[eddief]

keep us posted.

Wheels appears to spin smoothly with no load. White Industries T11 hub laced 2X on H+Son Archetype 32 hole rim. Video has been sent to wheel builder, waiting for reply.

[moose8]

I know very little about wheels but that sounds really bad to me.

[makoti]

I don't know what that is, but it isn't spokes settling. At first, I was thinking you had a nipple left in & rattling, but that's not that either.
Does it only make the sound when you're on the bike? Not when you lift it & spin it?

[tylerbick]

It certainly is an odd noise. Do you have a speed sensor and magnet on the wheel? If so, are they hitting each other? Sorry if this is too obvious of a suggestion...

[Black Dog]

That is not spoke windup being released. It could be excessive preload when the skewer is tightened. Does the wheel ping when you spin it in the fork by hand?

[coreywood]

I'm pretty sure that's the hub. Spoke settling shouldn't happen anyway but that sounds like either the hub or spokes hitting the inside surface of you fork leg. Can you try changing the tension on your qr? In a controlled space like where you took the vid. (check that there isn't play when it is secured in the fork) Lower the qr tension(like too low) , ride it, up the qr tension(not crazy high), ride it. See if the noise changes pitch or frequency.

[jc031699]

Look at the white h plus son lettering on the rim. The sound corresponds with that part of the wheel being at the contact point. So I am guessing that the problem is either at that point in the rotation or 180deg away on the opposite side of the rim/hub..... ??

[ergott]

Wow, sorry but I've never heard anything like that (not my build) . Like others have asked, what if you just spin the wheel while picking up the bike? What about removing the wheel from the bike and spinning it in you hands?

I don't think that's the hub. Almost sounds like a brake shoe hitting the spokes, but I doubt that's it.

[Cicli]

Is there an issue at the rim joint? I dont think it is spokes or hub.

[oldpotatoe]

Wheels appears to spin smoothly with no load. White Industries T11 hub laced 2X on H+Son Archetype 32 hole rim. Video has been sent to wheel builder, waiting for reply.

32-2 cross big sigh...BUT that sounds like a hub issue to me..

[twors]

The wheel rolls smoothly with no load and is clear in its mounting to the fork, brakes clear and no magnets installed. Wheel spins free in hand as it does mounted to fork. I tried different skewer tensions with no change. Skewer is a KCNC jobbie, steel axle. Everything is brand new, 25 miles old.

[oldpotatoe]

The wheel rolls smoothly with no load and is clear in its mounting to the fork, brakes clear and no magnets installed. Wheel spins free in hand as it does mounted to fork. I tried different skewer tensions with no change. Skewer is a KCNC jobbie, steel axle. Everything is brand new, 25 miles old.

I still thinks it's hub but take the tire off, check all, maybe try a different tire...

"Hold the wheel real close to the computer"..really hard not in person. Send it to me and I'll figure it out.

[twors]

32-2 cross big sigh...BUT that sounds like a hub issue to me..

32 2X bad idea?

[christian]

Really bad? No. Less than ideal? Yes.

32-3x makes for a better (more tangent) bracing angle between the hub and spokes. Frankly doesn't matter that much on rim-brake front wheels, but there it is.

[oldpotatoe]

32 2X bad idea?

2 cross on 32 vs 3 cross does nothing. It saves the weight of less than 1 spoke, I just don't get why. I see this mostly because the wheelbuilder doesn't have the correct length..but as a 'design', I scratch me head.

[twors]

Happy to know that I saved that one spokes weight, something to brag about in the next group ride this weekend I guess...LOL!

[oldpotatoe]

Happy to know that I saved that one spokes weight, something to brag about in the next group ride this weekend I guess...LOL!

Take the tire off and see if the spokes are way past the nipples..as in bottomed out..It could be wheel tension all around also..just got me thinking at the 2 cross gig..I have seen a wheel that used 3 cross lengths, laced 2 cross..tension was really low...it's something that's happening all around the wheel..not just one place. Hub and rim...

[Mayhem]

Weird. Does it ping with no load on it or only when you're on the bike?

[ergott]

Check the collar used for adjusting preload on that hub. Perhaps it's loose?

[ultraman6970]

Thanks for the video, thats not spokes pinning, its something else, maybe the valve hitting the rim? but never heard that so loud so its hard to tell.

Axle snapped? bearings??

[zap]

Check the collar used for adjusting preload on that hub. Perhaps it's loose?

This could be the problem…..a tiny screw that's not tightned at all.

[mjb266]

Wow. That's a tough one. I'm going with cartridge bearings loosely fit in the hub shell due to a machining issue at WI.

I think if you pulled the axle the bearings would fall out on their own. Not the builders mistake as it would feel and sound great until loaded up with the weight of a rider.

[cetuximab]

i had this sound with an ultegra hub and overtightened quick release.

Try spinning it out of the fork.

[Look585]

Check the collar used for adjusting preload on that hub. Perhaps it's loose?

This is my guess. 3 tiny set screws accessed thru a hole in the hubshell. If one is loose it could catch on the edge of the access hole and make a funny sound every revolution. More likely to happen under rider load than off/out of the bike. Skewer tightness shouldn't impact bearing preload on a WI-T11 hub.

[twors]

Pulled the axle from the hub just now and found one bearing loose in its bore.....so much for "made in USA" quaility. Not very happy :crap:

[oldpotatoe]

Pulled the axle from the hub just now and found one bearing loose in its bore.....so much for "made in USA" quaility. Not very happy :crap:

So is the bearing seat oversized? I have had 2 WI hubs defective out of the box, both for the same thing(axle end in axle crooked) so....if it's unusable built into a wheel...WI needs to step up.

[dcama5]

32-2 cross big sigh...BUT that sounds like a hub issue to me..

I agree, it's not spokes settling in because it would not last that long. Are you sure that there isn't just something hitting against something else with every revolution of the wheel?

[twors]

IMO, the hub is junk. I cant completely pull the bearing from the hub with my pinky finger but it does move in and out about .5" freely. Called the wheel builder and he is to talk to WI. Can't see what they can do other than replace the hub. There's no way I'm goin be talked into gluing the bearing into the hub which I'm sure will come up as a possible fix.

[ergott]

You guys need need to give them some credit. I bet they will offer a replacement shell or hub.

With the volume I and other wheel builders have done with White Industries hubs it's bound to happen that a defective will get out. No company can claim 0% defects. Heck, I've had bladed spokes from both DT and Sapim forged incorrectly.

That still sounds like more than just a bearing that has a loose fit.

Please let us know what the outcome is.

[Cicli]

Surprising. I would be more surprised if WI didn't step up and take care of it. They make nice stuff and have always been a huge help when I have contacted them.

[oldpotatoe]

You guys need need to give them some credit. I bet they will offer a replacement shell or hub.

With the volume I and other wheel builders have done with White Industries hubs it's bound to happen that a defective will get out. No company can claim 0% defects. Heck, I've had bladed spokes from both DT and Sapim forged incorrectly.

That still sounds like more than just a bearing that has a loose fit.

Please let us know what the outcome is.

No doubt but when the 'issue' is with a component in a just built wheel..that gets dicey. I had a defective front powertap hub..the one with the carbon inserts..it 'clicked' when on a bike. I rebuilt the wheel thinking it was the rim(it wasn't). PT was happy to replace the hub..but I was out the $ for 2 wheel builds. I am SURE WI will replace the hub..but...

[twors]

Exactly, I'm out shipping cost to return the wheel. The builder is out labor to rebuild the wheel plus shipping and spokes, are they reusable?

[oldpotatoe]

Exactly, I'm out shipping cost to return the wheel. The builder is out labor to rebuild the wheel plus shipping and spokes, are they reusable?

Yes, he can reuse the spokes and nipples but yup, even tho it's sold as a loose hub, not surprised WI isn't going to comp anybody for the labor. Time to unlace is fairly high, much longer than to lace in the first place.

I guess I like the WI silver/colors/ti FH body/11s/USA built but....

[Andreas]

With the volume I and other wheel builders have done with White Industries hubs it's bound to happen that a defective will get out. No company can claim 0% defects. Heck, I've had bladed spokes from both DT and Sapim forged incorrectly.


The volume that you and other wheel builders do is negligible small compared to factory or automated wheel builds with shimano hubs.

Unfortunately, we do not get QA data from WI, or Shimano for that matter.

But it would astonishing if the QA problems from WI are not by magnitudes greater than those of shimano / campagnolo hubs.

BTW, I am happily riding WI hubs as well as shimano and campagnolo.

Obviously, custom wheel builders are differentiating themselves from a set of c24 or neutrons by using these other hubs and hence are biased towards them.

[HillDancer]

The simplest and least costly solution is Loctite 680. Since you can move the bearing with fingers suggests this is the compound best suited for the gap. If nothing else applying retaining compound will eliminate one troubleshooting step. Retaining compound will not render the wheel less mechanically sound. This is an easy-as-pie DIY.

In a 700c wheel, 2X cross builds a more laterally stiff wheel than 3X, all other components being the same.

[oldpotatoe]

The simplest and least costly solution is Loctite 680. Since you can move the bearing with fingers suggests this is the compound best suited for the gap. If nothing else applying retaining compound will eliminate one troubleshooting step. Retaining compound will not render the wheel less mechanically sound. This is an easy-as-pie DIY.

In a 700c wheel, 2X cross builds a more laterally stiff wheel than 3X, all other components being the same.

Not the point, IMHO(and not my wheel either). Hub is defective. And I generally use no glue when it comes to bikes but after reading the info about loctite 680..how do ya get the bearing out when you want to replace it?

And for number 2, yes it is, but that doesn't mean a 3 cross is laterally soft.

[HillDancer]

I'm not missing the point, at this point (post#37), the OP is lamenting sunk costs; his perception, not mine.

Loctite 680 does not create a permanent bond. I use a drift and firm mallet tap, to remove whatever I've used it on after cure. I've gone through this with American Classic's POS Micro 58 front hub.

[Fatty]

Not the point, IMHO(and not my wheel either). Hub is defective. And I generally use no glue when it comes to bikes but after reading the info about loctite 680..how do ya get the bearing out when you want to replace it?


Loctite bond can be broken with heat.
Still a defective hub. I have never come across a bearing that was undersize.

[twors]

WI has suggested to glue the bearing into the hub with loctite to see if that solves the problem. Regardless, the wheel is going back to the builder after I troubleshoot.

[Black Dog]

White industries should be suggesting that you get a new hub from them ASAP.

[guyintense]

Is it possible excessive spoke tension is the problem?

[Black Dog]

Is it possible excessive spoke tension is the problem?

You would destroy the rim before you stretched a hub enough to make a bearing loose. And that would have to be with radial lacing.

[ergott]

Sorry, but there hasn't been a single hub manufacturer that has had hubs with specs off like that. A bearing bore that's slightly oversized is rather mild in comparison to what I've experienced. The suggestion of using bearing retainer compound is standard in any situation like that outside of the bicycle industry and quite common.

As far as Shimano hubs? If you haven't seen cup bores out of spec concentrically to the spoke holes you haven't looked very carefully. I have nothing to gain from my stance here. There are plenty of other hub manufacturers out there that I could use if I felt WI quality was an issue. It's not like I stock up on hubs and sell them on volume. Shocker, I've seen DT bearings fall out of the shell when servicing. It happens.

I still think there's more wrong than just the one bearing bore. I've seen bearing bores just out of spec before and never had that sound emanate from a wheel. Best to have wheel builder look at it. It's not out of line to ask the wheel builder for a return label either.

[ergott]

This just happens to be a Shimano hub I have here (my wheel).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt5WL1M2VOw

[twors]

I still think there's more wrong than just the one bearing bore. I've seen bearing bores just out of spec before and never had that sound emanate from a wheel. Best to have wheel builder look at it. It's not out of line to ask the wheel builder for a return label either.

Your right, I just got home and found both bearings loose in their bores. One bearing wiggled out with the axle while the bearing shown in video below required a small push to come out. Both are glued back in with locite to see if the noise goes away. I'll let it dry overnight. I'm going thru this troubleshooting to satisfie myself that it is the loose bearings causing the problem.
https://youtu.be/ZSwtQI7waHw

[guyintense]

You would destroy the rim before you stretched a hub enough to make a bearing loose. And that would have to be with radial lacing.

Here's a quote from a pretty popular hub manufacturer:

In rare cases, when the wheel has been built at very high tension, the large drive side bearing can become loose and cause creaking. Solution: Check to see if the bearing will slide out by hand. If this happens, we can supply an oversized replacement bearing.

[ergott]

I thought about quoting Chris King. They make their own bearings so they have that liberty. No one else I can think of that does.

[coreywood]

[QUOTE=ergott;1738713]
"No company can claim 0% defects. Heck, I've had bladed spokes from both DT and Sapim forged incorrectly. "

Same here.

[coreywood]

You would destroy the rim before you stretched a hub enough to make a bearing loose. And that would have to be with radial lacing.
Are you familiar with Tune hubs? Only takes a quick search to see what over-tensioned spokes can do to a hub.

[Black Dog]

Are you familiar with Tune hubs? Only takes a quick search to see what over-tensioned spokes can do to a hub.

Yes yes, fair enough. If you use a super light hub and generate enough force with 2 cross or less you can deform a hub. I concede that it is possible and does happen.

[beeatnik]

Tune hubs are awful. But, they're great.

[twors]

Just did a short test ride on the problem wheel. The Loctite has seemed to cure the problem, wheel is whisper quiet. Thanks for everyone help, case closed as far as I'm concerned. Wheel will be shipped back this monday.