Women Specific Bikes. . .

[itsflantastic]

You all will notice a Fierte for sale in the classifieds section of the board. It's being sold because it doesn't fit my brother's girlfriend, so she's looking for a women's specific road bike now.

Anyone have suggestions for a good ladie's road bike? So far, the Litespeed Bella is the top of the list. It's an interesting situation because she is going to be doing tri's and road biking, but is also accompanying me on my tour across america this summer, so it has to be able to at least accomodate a trailer.
I know it's a lot of compromises, but I just thought I'd throw this question to the experts. :bike:
Thanks!
Dan

[Serotta PETE]

You all will notice a Fierte for sale in the classifieds section of the board. It's being sold because it doesn't fit my brother's girlfriend, so she's looking for a women's specific road bike now.

Anyone have suggestions for a good ladie's road bike? So far, the Litespeed Bella is the top of the list. It's an interesting situation because she is going to be doing tri's and road biking, but is also accompanying me on my tour across america this summer, so it has to be able to at least accomodate a trailer.
I know it's a lot of compromises, but I just thought I'd throw this question to the experts. :bike:
Thanks!
Dan

Typically a mft calls a ladies bike one that has a shorter top tube in relation to a specific size.

A suggestion would be to get a custom build for her from a CDA (SEROTTA) or someone like Independent Fab. Then you can switch the components over. As to a trailer, I am not one in the know on this, but I am sure they can beef up specifc areas to accommodate. Our own MR KELLY from Serotta has more knowledge on matching a custom fit to a customer requirements, than anyone out there.

good shoping....PETE

[Smiley]

There is no such thing as womens specific , its really custom as too many women differ by a far larger range then men , I have done my share of womens bikes and two never really got close. Hey Pete , show some LOVE to the LaCorsa model , its fully customisable to the riders needs at a better price point. If she rides a really small frame then for my Green Backs its a CDA .

[Serotta PETE]

There is no such thing as womens specific , its really custom as too many women differ by a far larger range then men , I have done my share of womens bikes and two never really got close. Hey Pete , show some LOVE to the LaCorsa model , its fully customisable to the riders needs at a better price point. If she rides a really small frame then for my Green Backs its a CDA .

I will take a course from you on the 20th - - if you bring the red wine....

[mwos]

IHMO, custom is the only way to go, especially if she is small. Even WSD bikes are made to fit the average person in that size range and not everyone (like me) fits the average.

I understand that even tall women have fit issues because they often need a shorter tt than the frame size they require allows.

If she wants CF Aegis is making the Victory in a 46 and 48. They got a grant to develop it because they recognized that the Swift (which they marketed to women) had some fit issues.

Some of the women on the Team Estrogen Website are raving about the Specialized Ruby and the WSD Trek Pilot. My friend, who is about 5'4", has the Trek Pilot and loves it. However, another friend chose the Fierte Ti over the Trek 5000 WSD because she thought the carbon was too flexy.

I don't know if any of these bikes will accomodate a trailer.

My choice, a custom Ottrott :banana:

Kathi

[znfdl]

My wife had to go the custom route as she rides a 58 seat tube with a 48 top tube. This is the only bike that my wife has ever had that fits her. She was fit non other than Tom Kellog. The only accomodation that had to be made was 650 wheels.

[SManning]

I tried going the WSD route when I was looking for my bike. It didn't work for me at all because I have such long legs and long femurs plus a short upper body.

I think a woman, especially if she is very disproportioned, is much better off with a custom bike. Many of my female friends have gone the custom route because their upper bodies are much, much shorter than their legs. They've tried in vain to fit on a women's bike or a regular road geometry, and just went with a custom in the end because it could be made to truly fit them. She'll ride her bike if it's comfortable and it's fun to ride.

I know custom geometry has made a very big difference for me, in comfort and performance. I most definitely look better on the bike as well. I ended up with a 55 st, 51 tt, and a 72.5 degree seat tube angle.

Sarah

[brenick]

You might want to start with what is wrong with the fit on her existing bike. For example, the Fierte comes in a 52S which is the same bike as the 52 with a slightly shorter top tube.

I am a 5'6" female and have had 4 road bikes. They were all "close" to the same size, but the last one I bought fits me the best. It is a custom Serotta with a 52 seat tube and 52 top tube. Paying a fitter to determine the correct size can be money well spent in my opinion. After she finds out what size she needs, then she can shop for the bike that best fits her.

[jerk]

My wife had to go the custom route as she rides a 58 seat tube with a 48 top tube. This is the only bike that my wife has ever had that fits her. She was fit non other than Tom Kellog. The only accomodation that had to be made was 650 wheels.


wow, that is really.....ahm different. was her torso lost in the war? you know, for future reference, a unicycle has a 0cm top tube and the jerk has a a few extralong stems lying around. actually, the jerk would love to see pictures because if it works for her that's high fives all around, but the jerk really can't imagine such a bicycle.

jerk

[Brons2]

My wife had to go the custom route as she rides a 58 seat tube with a 48 top tube. This is the only bike that my wife has ever had that fits her. She was fit non other than Tom Kellog. The only accomodation that had to be made was 650 wheels.

650b wheels are highly recommended if you're making a frame smaller than 52cm or one with a small tt/ht. In such a case, Serotta might not be the best route because everything I've seen says they only make bikes in 700c sizes. Please correct me if I am wrong and I will retract this statement.

[jerk]

you know what? the jerk's legs are much much longer than his upper body too. and his incoming ridley is a 55cm c-c with a 73,5 seat angle and a 58 cm top tube. he'll push the seat all the way back with a pmp extra-offset post and use a 140mm stem and the thing will fit like a glove....oh, the saddle height will be really high too....long legs and a short torso does not mean one should be riding a bike that is built outside the realm of acceptable reasonable numbers. gender has nothing to do with it either. you're female and have long legs? that means guys like the jerk will give you dirty looks in a bar, it doesn't mean you need to ride some monstrosity.

jerk

(sorry kids, the wing hurts and the red wine isn't working. if you are happy with your custom bicycle and had a big smile on yhour face when you rode this morning; you were doing better than the jerk was on his ride this morning.)

[Brons2]

that means guys like the jerk will give you dirty looks in a bar, it doesn't mean you need to ride some monstrosity.



I used to date a girl in college who was 5'9" and had a 38" inseam. She'd probably need a bike like that too.

[jerk]

I used to date a girl in college who was 5'9" and had a 38" inseam. She'd probably need a bike like that too.

dude- whatever she needed the jerk hopes you gave it to her.

jerk

[Marcusaurelius]

You all will notice a Fierte for sale in the classifieds section of the board. It's being sold because it doesn't fit my brother's girlfriend, so she's looking for a women's specific road bike now.

Anyone have suggestions for a good ladie's road bike? So far, the Litespeed Bella is the top of the list. It's an interesting situation because she is going to be doing tri's and road biking, but is also accompanying me on my tour across america this summer, so it has to be able to at least accomodate a trailer.
I know it's a lot of compromises, but I just thought I'd throw this question to the experts. :bike:
Thanks!
Dan

If you don't use 650c wheels with a short top tube you will quickly run into toe overlap. Despite what some think there is a difference between men and woman: men long torso and usually arms while women have shorter arms and torso. Also most women cyclist I've met like to be a little more upright.

I know Trek a whole range of WSD (womens specific sized) road bikes. I think specialized does too. And of course Terry has been making bikes for women for many years but lately they have gone from nice steel to unwonderful aluminum.

[znfdl]

wow, that is really.....ahm different. was her torso lost in the war? you know, for future reference, a unicycle has a 0cm top tube and the jerk has a a few extralong stems lying around. actually, the jerk would love to see pictures because if it works for her that's high fives all around, but the jerk really can't imagine such a bicycle.

jerk

I will try to post some pictures this evening.

[mwos]

650b wheels are highly recommended if you're making a frame smaller than 52cm or one with a small tt/ht. In such a case, Serotta might not be the best route because everything I've seen says they only make bikes in 700c sizes. Please correct me if I am wrong and I will retract this statement.



The 46p Fierte comes with 650c wheels and my new Ottrott will have 650c wheels with a ti rear triangle rather than carbon.

Kathi

[dbrk]

My wife rides a 43cm sloper built by David Kirk, the famous "HelloKitty special," we like to call it. It too has 650c wheels and no toe overlap, which no matter how slight I know Aimee would soon identify as a discomforting thought (thoughts are reality too). What is so wonderful about this bike are the normal angles and superb geometry solutions, nothing like those 75d seat angles we routinely see on WSD bikes from the bike makers. Serotta, of course, understands how to build just as intelligent a bike. When you use a steel fork, however, it can be easier to work with the frame (rather than design around relatively limited rake options).

The whole notion of WSD is a feature of off-the-peg builders who want 1. to sell bikes to women through the marketing gimmick of telling them that this was done for them and 2. want to sell bikes that fit women better than their other off-the-peg offerings. Once you get into custom or bespoke (those _not_ being the same: custom involves a design with customer and fitter input that is approved and modified as necesssary while bespoke is a very minimal input with the outcome left entirely to the builder's choices and concepts), well, the whole issue of WSD disappears.

dbrk

[lnomalley]

The Orbea Dama line and Specialized Ruby line are THE way to go. i know more girls in love with the fit of their Orbea Damas. The Basque know how to make a bike for small people.

[Larry D]

There are now more WSD bikes on the market than there was in 2003 when my wife wanted a road bike that she would be comfortable riding. She demoed all the WSD bikes available at the time from Cannondale, Terry, and Trek. One dealer even suggested looking at a kid's bike because no manufacturer built a "stock" WSD frame small enough. Another dealer, who also sells Serotta and Seven, told her to look at the hybrids and Terry's. So..she found a fitter she whom she was confident would listen to her needs and would make recommendations to fit those needs. She is 5' tall.

She now rides a 38cm frame Serotta Colorado III. It was fitted for and is equiped with flat bars because she has small hands and was uncomfortable with drop bars and brifters, Shimano LX Rapid shifters, Shimao 105 triple crank, Shimano LX rear derailleur and a 12/33 9 speed casette. Kelly recommended the Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork and obviously 650 wheels.

The outcome is that she rides and enjoys it. The bike is also well proportioned and beautiful.

My recommendation is find a fitter that will listen to you, that you have confidence in and trust and go from there. :banana:

[Brons2]

Larry, have you ever thought of albatross or moustache road bars? They can be used with mountain-bike style brake levers.

I just personally don't like flat bars. I guess if she rides it though....

[mwos]

There are now more WSD bikes on the market than there was in 2003 when my wife wanted a road bike that she would be comfortable riding. She demoed all the WSD bikes available at the time from Cannondale, Terry, and Trek. One dealer even suggested looking at a kid's bike because no manufacturer built a "stock" WSD frame small enough. Another dealer, who also sells Serotta and Seven, told her to look at the hybrids and Terry's. So..she found a fitter she whom she was confident would listen to her needs and would make recommendations to fit those needs. She is 5' tall.

She now rides a 38cm frame Serotta Colorado III. It was fitted for and is equiped with flat bars because she has small hands and was uncomfortable with drop bars and brifters, Shimano LX Rapid shifters, Shimao 105 triple crank, Shimano LX rear derailleur and a 12/33 9 speed casette. Kelly recommended the Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork and obviously 650 wheels.

The outcome is that she rides and enjoys it. The bike is also well proportioned and beautiful.

My recommendation is find a fitter that will listen to you, that you have confidence in and trust and go from there. :banana:

Wow, a bike smaller than mine! I'm also getting an Ouzo Pro fork, same as my Aegis.

What you say is true, even today. Companies like Trek and Specialized don't have sizes small enough in their higher end bikes for the smaller, around 5', rider. Plus, they're putting the smallest frames on 700c wheels, which, I'm told, can cause less than optimal handling.

Another issue with a smaller rider can be short arms and femurs. Stand over and tt length can be right on but the bike still doesn't fit because of a lower head tube and st angle. In my case I needed 3cm of spacers and a stem with a very steep angle just to get the right body position and comfortable reach to the handlebars. So a sloping tt is necessary to get the correct ht and standover.

On the smallest Terry bikes the rear wheel is a 700c and the front wheel is a 24c. I don't find 650c wheels a disadvantage but 2 different sizes of tubes to carry, especially and odd one like 24c, no thank you.

I've been riding for 25 years and have had 4 road bikes and 3 mtn bikes. My Titus mtn bike is the closest in fit I've ever had. My new Ottrott will be the first road bike that fits.

It was a Serotta fitter in Cincinnati who finally solved the mystery of why my bikes, even with correct tt and standover, still didn't fit.

The shops I have dealt with recommended Seven or Serotta for a custom frame.

I do thank Cannondale for coming out with a small bike on 650c wheels. It was in 1995, was called a compact frame with Shimano 105. A couple of years later Trek coined the WSD and the Cannondale became the Feminique. I was so used to poor fitting bicycles that I didn't know it was too big for me. I rode it for 5 years until I got tired of the harsh ride and bought the Aegis Swift.

I know people question the need for a WSD designed bike but pre 1995 stock frames did not fit small women. The only choices were a mixte, step through frame, designed for the average man, or custom. If it hadn't been for my little Cannondale, I wouldn't have the love of riding that I have today.

Kathi

[deechee]

When my gf was looking for a bike last year we saw an arry of "women specific" bikes but the majority of them also assumed that the "woman" needed a triple chainring in front and she found it insulting. (She's a podium finisher in her triathlon age group). She ended up getting a TCR with a shorty stem.

Even still, there are some bikes with not-so-long top tubes - Opus, Gios, Lemond that we looked at...

I second the custom route from Serotta. I'm a guy with proportionally longer legs and have never looked back since I got my custom CIII.

[Brons2]

I know a lot of men question the need for a WSD designed bike but pre 1995 stock frames did not fit small women. The only choices were a mixte, step through frame, designed for the average man, or custom. If it hadn't been for my little Cannondale, I wouldn't have the love of riding that I have today.

Kathi

I would never question the need for gender or rider specific frames, I am 6'7" and there is no off-the shelf bikes made in the world that fit me properly.

I think even average sized riders of both sexes would be happier with a custom, but it becomes a question of cost. When most people can buy an off the shelf 56cm Trek that costs them $1000-$1500, they can't justify spending $5000+ for a full custom.

I must also thank Cannondale. For a time they built a 66cm frame, which I bought one a while back. I realized later that even a 66 is too small for me, but it's a lot closer to the ballpark than any off the shelf 63cm will ever be.

[Brons2]

When my gf was looking for a bike last year we saw an arry of "women specific" bikes but the majority of them also assumed that the "woman" needed a triple chainring in front and she found it insulting. (She's a podium finisher in her triathlon age group). She ended up getting a TCR with a shorty stem.

Um. Most shops will chage the crank out for a double for a very minimum upcharge :D :banana:

Although most of the time the conversion is the other direction! (double to triple)

[mwos]

[QUOTE=deechee]When my gf was looking for a bike last year we saw an arry of "women specific" bikes but the majority of them also assumed that the "woman" needed a triple chainring in front and she found it insulting. (She's a podium finisher in her triathlon age group). She ended up getting a TCR with a shorty stem.

QUOTE]


I had a similiar experience a couple of years ago. I was in a bike shop here in Denver and they had a collection of high end bikes which I was admiring. The salesman came up to me and I commented about the bikes and asked if he had a bike for me. He said "I have the perfect bike for you" and pulled out a Specialized Dolce. He didn't bother to ask what I had in mind or what I was currently riding. I was so insulted! I was expecting him to show me a high end frame that would be too big. Instead, he showed me the only "woman's frame" in the shop and he was so proud of himself!

[Ti Designs]

Who comes up with these ideas? WSD - women's specific design... Specificly, which women do they fit? When do we see BOGSD - balding old guy specific design???

Bikes come in all shapes, sizes and colors. It's the job of a fitter to figure out what a person (note: no specific gender) needs. Anything beyond that is making generalizations which are wrong more often than they are right. Take a look at all of the womens bikes. Women come in with a complaint and some vague idea of what they need to do to solve the problem, and lots of companies build bikes to order. Problem, the people with the complaints don't understand the dynamics of fit. They make the sweeping generalization that women have shorter torsos and longer legs, so they need shorter top tubes. In search of the shortest top tube they pull in the front wheel and steepen the seat tube angle. But wait, if they have longer legs, isn't the seat tube angle going the wrong way??? But which one is easier, teaching people about setback and weight transfer, or showing them a shorter top tube length and saying it's made just for women?

And how 'bout the guys who have a short torso or lack lower back flexability? Are they stuck with pink decals? Who decided that women only grow to 5'4"??? Some subjects need to be addressed on an individual basis - this is one of them.

[christian]

When do we see BOGSD - balding old guy specific design???

Hate to sound like the jerk, but, "Hello? The gallery!?"

FYI, the key to BOGSD seems to be a headtube at least 1.7x the length of the stem!

- Christian

[yeehawfactor]

But which one is easier, teaching people about setback and weight transfer, or showing them a shorter top tube length and saying it's made just for women?

out of curiosity, how do you typically explain this?

[mwos]

Who comes up with these ideas? WSD - women's specific design... Specificly, which women do they fit? When do we see BOGSD - balding old guy specific design???

Bikes come in all shapes, sizes and colors. It's the job of a fitter to figure out what a person (note: no specific gender) needs. Anything beyond that is making generalizations which are wrong more often than they are right. Take a look at all of the womens bikes. Women come in with a complaint and some vague idea of what they need to do to solve the problem, and lots of companies build bikes to order. Problem, the people with the complaints don't understand the dynamics of fit. They make the sweeping generalization that women have shorter torsos and longer legs, so they need shorter top tubes. In search of the shortest top tube they pull in the front wheel and steepen the seat tube angle. But wait, if they have longer legs, isn't the seat tube angle going the wrong way??? But which one is easier, teaching people about setback and weight transfer, or showing them a shorter top tube length and saying it's made just for women?

And how 'bout the guys who have a short torso or lack lower back flexability? Are they stuck with pink decals? Who decided that women only grow to 5'4"??? Some subjects need to be addressed on an individual basis - this is one of them.



Forgive me, even though I'm retired from my school librarian job, I'll forever be the researcher.

This information comes from "Women's Sports and Fitness" magazines 1989, 1997 and 1998 and "Women's Cycling" published by Bicycling Magazine 1997.

All of the articles mention that women will have trouble getting the perfect fit, because, "on the average, we're not only smaller than men, but our legs are a little longer and our torsos shorter than men of the same height. Women who are about 5'4" or taller needn't worry too much about these differences-there will be a wide selection of standard-model bikes to choose from. " The article goes on to discuss tt length and states that most women will require a tt that's an inch shorter than the tt on a bike that would fit a man the same height". It also states that seat can be moved forward and stem shortened but its better to get a frame that fits. Quoted from "Women's Sports and Fitness" April 1989.



Quoted from Women's Cycling" 1997 written by Susan Weaver

How many male wrench jockeys do you know who stand 5-foot-2 and have bought 3 road bikes in 10 years just trying to find one that fit right?

Most women can find a bike that fits their legs. The tricky part is making sure it also fits your torso-horizontally, bikes tend to stretch women to much. Most bikes are designed to fit men, who in general have longer torsos and arms than we do. So the tt and stem might be too rangy for your comfort. This effect seems especially exaggerated for women 5-foot-5 or shorter.

An article from Women's Cycling, by Delaine Fragnoli, July 1997 talks about getting yourself on the right saddle, in the right position, on the ideal frame gives you your "seat of power" so to speak and how anatomical differences between women and men can have significant effects on cycling comfort and performance. Because of differences in women's pelvic structure women use their glute muscles differently. "exactly what muscles you use, and when, will vary, says Andrew Pruitt, Ed.D, clinical director of Table Mesa Sports Medicine in Boulder, Co. "Activitation of specific gluteal muscles depends on pelvic shape and size, the position of your pelvis over the bike's bottom bracket, riding position and bike set-up-particularly saddle adjustment." Because of these variables, women generally use their butt muscles differently from men.
Much of the difficulty in getting the best from our butts is "because most bikes are built for men" says Christine Wells, PH.D professor of exercise science at Arizona State University.

These magazines also reviewed bicycles and most at that time were for average to tall riders. In an April 1998 review from "Women's Sports and Fitness" Georgenna Terry and Estelle Grey (Rodriguez) are credited for making wsd bikes. Cannondale, Bianchi, and Specialized are credited with making small unisex sizes.

Unfortunately, there are no references for the information in these articles so I can't verify the accuracy of the information.

I hope this sheds some light on the evolution of WSD bikes.

Kathi

[Brons2]

Kathi,

Those magazine articles still refer to statistical norms for both men and women.

If you look at it from the perspective of "everyone should have a custom bike" then the concept becomes person specific, not gender specific.

There are exceptions to every norm.

[mwos]

The question was "how did WSD get started?", so I tried to answer that question from the sources I had.

Years ago I had a pair of ski boots that didn't fit well, they were the latest design in ski boots but they were not a good design for my small foot. The boot fitter said that they were like putting your foot in a box, some people fit the box and others didn't. I think of bike fit the same way, some people are lucky enough to fit a stock frame, others are not.

I wish I had the money I spent on bikes and the changes I made to them trying to get them to fit. I'm like Susan Weaver, 5 bikes (mtn and road) in 10 years, seeking a good fit. Often the frame size was correct but I was not fitted as an individual, but the way the average man was fitted, so I still had issues with the fit.

By the way, where does one go to find out about bike fit? Not everyone is willing to fork out the money for a professional fitting, so what resources are available besides the bike shops?

Kathi

[Ti Designs]

out of curiosity, how do you typically explain this?

That's easy, take the very next response on the thread:

All of the articles mention that women will have trouble getting the perfect fit, because, "on the average, we're not only smaller than men, but our legs are a little longer and our torsos shorter than men of the same height. Women who are about 5'4" or taller needn't worry too much about these differences-there will be a wide selection of standard-model bikes to choose from. " The article goes on to discuss tt length and states that most women will require a tt that's an inch shorter than the tt on a bike that would fit a man the same height". It also states that seat can be moved forward and stem shortened but its better to get a frame that fits.

The key part here is "it also states that seat can be moved forward..." It's easy to boil things down to one number, it's much harder to explain what really happens. It's a basic premis of marketing, take one variable out of context and use it to sell. There are lots of car companies boasting close to 300 horsepower in their SUV's. Last time I checked, there were two numbers in power to weight ratio - am I missing something? In WSD bikes it's all about the top tube length. Forget about the 76 degree seat angle or the lack of saddle setback, less distance from seat to bar is what they want.

As long as you're at your computer, try a little setback experiment. Sit all the way back in your seat, angled forward with good posture and your feet on the floor in front of you. You don't have to support your body weight on your keyboard - this is like having no weight on the bars. Now move all the way forward on your seat but keep your feet in the same place. As your center of gravity shifts past where your feet are on the floor you start to fall forward onto the desk. The distance from where you're sitting to the desk is shorter, yet you have more weight transfer - get the point?

[mwos]

That's easy, take the very next response on the thread:



The key part here is "it also states that seat can be moved forward..." It's easy to boil things down to one number, it's much harder to explain what really happens. It's a basic premis of marketing, take one variable out of context and use it to sell. There are lots of car companies boasting close to 300 horsepower in their SUV's. Last time I checked, there were two numbers in power to weight ratio - am I missing something? In WSD bikes it's all about the top tube length. Forget about the 76 degree seat angle or the lack of saddle setback, less distance from seat to bar is what they want.

As long as you're at your computer, try a little setback experiment. Sit all the way back in your seat, angled forward with good posture and your feet on the floor in front of you. You don't have to support your body weight on your keyboard - this is like having no weight on the bars. Now move all the way forward on your seat but keep your feet in the same place. As your center of gravity shifts past where your feet are on the floor you start to fall forward onto the desk. The distance from where you're sitting to the desk is shorter, yet you have more weight transfer - get the point?


Pre 1995 bikes simply didn't fit small women. I could barely straddle a 48cm Cannondale let alone reach the handlebars.

Terry found a research study done at Wright Pat Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio that stated that women had shorter torsos and longer legs. It was done for the purpose of making uniforms. From what I understand that study was later found untrue but that's what she originally based her designs on. Later, she said that women ride with rounded backs, thus, the need for a shorter tt. But she didn't know why. It could have been because of shorter arms their handlebars were too low. On her website she markets herself as the orginal women specific bike but doesn't even say why!

I believe that an idea that started to meet the needs of a smaller sized rider (a smaller, more proportional bike) mushroomed into a myth for all women.

I tried your little experiment but the chair is to big for me so I'm not sure what I proved. However, I'm a prime example of needing my saddle forward, even with a proper tt length. My road and 1 mtn bike have 74.5-75 degree st angles, with zero degree seatposts and my saddle is all the way forward. The purpose was not to shorten my tt length but to get me in a good position over my pedals. Originally, the road bikes were set up with saddles in the middle, seatposts with setbacks and my solution was to ride with the nose down which probably helped me slide a little more forward.

I have 1 mtn bike that has a 72.5 st angle with a shorter tt. The slacker angle simply does not allow me to get my center of gravity over the bike so I don't have the power that I have on my newer bikes. I might as well be riding a recumbent!

Kathi

[Ti Designs]

I'm a prime example of needing my saddle forward, even with a proper tt length. My road and 1 mtn bike have 74.5-75 degree st angles, with zero degree seatposts and my saddle is all the way forward. The purpose was not to shorten my tt length but to get me in a good position over my pedals.


Very small bike, steep seat angle, zero offset seatpost, saddle all the way forward - something don't sound right to me!

[mwos]

Very small bike, steep seat angle, zero offset seatpost, saddle all the way forward - something don't sound right to me!


Yep, custom for me. Two different Serotta fitters said I have a very short femur. I don't have the geometry on the custom frame but it'll be interesting to see how the issue gets resolved.

Kathi

[Ti Designs]

As long as we're talking Serotta fitters, let me ask a few questions. When they set you up on the Size Cycle, did they find a position where you could use both glutes and quads within the pedal stroke, and could you take most of the weight off the bars in both the tops and hoods without having to sit up?

[mwos]

As long as we're talking Serotta fitters, let me ask a few questions. When they set you up on the Size Cycle, did they find a position where you could use both glutes and quads within the pedal stroke, and could you take most of the weight off the bars in both the tops and hoods without having to sit up?


They used KOPS as their criteria. The first fitting was my new mtn bike and the fitter complained that my femur is so short that he couldn't get my knee positioned over the pedal. He switched out the seatpost w/ setback for a zero degree one and moved the saddle forward and was happy.

On my road bike I was sliding forward to get a better position but then I was on the saddle nose, which was uncomfortable, and would move backwards. I was doing this unconsciously but became aware of it because I didn't move on the mtn bike and I felt like I had more power so I went to a Serotta fitter and had a refit done on my road bike, same issue with the saddle, plus we raised the handlebars.

The fitter for my custom frame let me ride for about 1/2 hr. then readjusted the Size cycle. He said he usually has the rider pick up their pace and then rechecks but my position was so "perfect" that he didn't think he needed to check anything else. He was pretty pleased with my position on the bike.

Before I had the refit on my road bike, I rode with the saddle nose down, it was the only way I could tolerate the saddle. Now my saddle is flat. Also, I've been told by the fitters and my physical therapist that I'm pretty flexible and have a very strong back.

Kathi

[Smiley]

mwos , I am betting that you have small feet and have a hard time adjusting the cleat on the ball of the foot cause the cleat did not move as far back on the shoe , small length toes ?

[mwos]

Small feet, Speedplay pedals, sidi shoes.

What are you suggesting Smiley?

[Smiley]

Did Chris get the cleats under that balls of your feet , my experiance with small shoes and feet is the slot for the pedal placement on the shoe tends to favor FORWARD and not back towards the heel . So its really difficult to get the cleat placement correct and if your messing with KOP , well its starts there. Just my nickles worth .

oh yes that cleat or mating surface for the Speed Plays are the same size for mens LARGE feet as well your tiny feet so yes its a problem to get the cleat just on the balls for small shoes/feet

[Ti Designs]

They used KOPS as their criteria.

That's not what I was asking, but as long as you brought it us, why KOPS? Is there some reason that the knee directly over the pedal spindle is best. The oversimplified answer is that the angular force at 90 degrees is greatest whe the knee is directly over the spindle (SIN(90)*force*crank length). And if you could only push straight down, that would be true.

I spend a lot of hours with the riders I coach on saddle position. I ask them to take note of which muscle groups they notice when riding, then we adjust the position to balance out the use, give them some time to adapt to the position and do more testing. A number of my riders come from a rowing background, I've found that moving them back to get the glutes into the action sooner works well for them - there I go making sweeping generalizations again...

My question about your body weight on the bars is a big issue in fitting. I'll admit that a trainer or size cycle is a dismal representation of what a real bike going down the road feels like, but if you can't grasp the concept of unweighting the bars during a fitting, the comfort and control of the ride can't be all that good on the road.

[mwos]

That's not what I was asking, but as long as you brought it us, why KOPS? Is there some reason that the knee directly over the pedal spindle is best. The oversimplified answer is that the angular force at 90 degrees is greatest whe the knee is directly over the spindle (SIN(90)*force*crank length). And if you could only push straight down, that would be true.

I spend a lot of hours with the riders I coach on saddle position. I ask them to take note of which muscle groups they notice when riding, then we adjust the position to balance out the use, give them some time to adapt to the position and do more testing. A number of my riders come from a rowing background, I've found that moving them back to get the glutes into the action sooner works well for them - there I go making sweeping generalizations again...

My question about your body weight on the bars is a big issue in fitting. I'll admit that a trainer or size cycle is a dismal representation of what a real bike going down the road feels like, but if you can't grasp the concept of unweighting the bars during a fitting, the comfort and control of the ride can't be all that good on the road.


No one has ever asked me that question but I think I understand what your saying. I know there is a difference between the Voodoo with the 72.5 degree st angle and the others with the 75 degree st angle. I have more power and feel stronger pedaling the bikes with the steeper st angles. I spend more time on the road bikes and I noticed the difference when I rode the mtn bike. An interesting note is that the stem on my Voodoo was as long as my SO's which was stretching me out a lot (numb hands, achy shoulders). My LBS (different from LBS I bought the bike from and 8 yrs later) decided the stem was too long for me and put a shorter stem on. The numbness, achy shoulders went away went away but I felt less power on the bike and farther away from the pedals. Also, zero degree seatpost.

After I bought the Titus I again noticed a difference, stronger more power than the Aegis, thus, the zero degree seatpost on the Aegis.

This all is intutive on my part, comparing what felt right between the different bikes, but someone told me that the body seeks its natural position on the bike and I believe that this is what my body was doing.

I can test all this out for you on my trainer and on the street as I still have the Voodoo, the Cannondale, steep st but seatpost w/ seatback, and Aegis. The Aegis is in shop getting tuned so I will test on Friday. All have been refitted the best they can be.

Kathi

[mwos]

Did Chris get the cleats under that balls of your feet , my experiance with small shoes and feet is the slot for the pedal placement on the shoe tends to favor FORWARD and not back towards the heel . So its really difficult to get the cleat placement correct and if your messing with KOP , well its starts there. Just my nickles worth .

oh yes that cleat or mating surface for the Speed Plays are the same size for mens LARGE feet as well your tiny feet so yes its a problem to get the cleat just on the balls for small shoes/feet


I checked my cleats, actually I think Chris looked at them too, and the are un the ball of my foot. He just put new ones on for me and they are in the same position as my old ones. It doesn't look like they can go back much farther. I think Kathy K checked them as well.

One thing about the guy I used in Cincy, he knew a lot of little secrets that others didn't know. He missed the boat on the Aegis because he wasn't used to small riders but he was right on with other things. He respected my choices and helped me chose components that were right for me. I trained him well! :)

[Marcusaurelius]

Who comes up with these ideas? WSD - women's specific design... Specificly, which women do they fit? When do we see BOGSD - balding old guy specific design???

Bikes come in all shapes, sizes and colors. It's the job of a fitter to figure out what a person (note: no specific gender) needs. Anything beyond that is making generalizations which are wrong more often than they are right. Take a look at all of the womens bikes. Women come in with a complaint and some vague idea of what they need to do to solve the problem, and lots of companies build bikes to order. Problem, the people with the complaints don't understand the dynamics of fit. They make the sweeping generalization that women have shorter torsos and longer legs, so they need shorter top tubes. In search of the shortest top tube they pull in the front wheel and steepen the seat tube angle. But wait, if they have longer legs, isn't the seat tube angle going the wrong way??? But which one is easier, teaching people about setback and weight transfer, or showing them a shorter top tube length and saying it's made just for women?

And how 'bout the guys who have a short torso or lack lower back flexability? Are they stuck with pink decals? Who decided that women only grow to 5'4"??? Some subjects need to be addressed on an individual basis - this is one of them.


I do think it's a bit odd to have men commnet on what bike will fit a woman. Just in case some men haven't noticed a women does have a different physique. Also they have different proportions.

[Marcusaurelius]

Kathi,

Those magazine articles still refer to statistical norms for both men and women.

If you look at it from the perspective of "everyone should have a custom bike" then the concept becomes person specific, not gender specific.

There are exceptions to every norm.


Well statistically 90% of men can fit on a stock bike simply because it's made to fit the average man's proportions. However these same bikes will not fit 90% of the women cyclist because of the longish top tubes. Very few stock road bikes will have a short top tube that does not involve some toe overlap or some very steep seat angle hence the appearance of WSD frames.

[mwos]

Well statistically 90% of men can fit on a stock bike simply because it's made to fit the average man's proportions. However these same bikes will not fit 90% of the women cyclist because of the longish top tubes. Very few stock road bikes will have a short top tube that does not involve some toe overlap or some very steep seat angle hence the appearance of WSD frames.

Look at the development of skis for women, they have found that "men carry most of their weight in their upper body while women have a lower center of gravity because they carry most of their weight in their hips and thighs.

When skiing men reposition their center of mass with their arms, while women control their center of mass through lower body movements. As a result women tend to sit back farther on the tails of their skis, where most of their weight is concentrated. This makes the tips of the skis float, or worse cross shoot out from underneath them. And because women don't have the leverage a man has with his upper body weight, they try to balance forward by bending at the waist and sticking their butt out." Quoted from "Women Ski" by Claudia Carbone, 1994.

The solution to get a woman's mass more forward was to move the bindings 1-3 cm closer to the front of the ski than the manufacturer recommended. The ski industry responded by designing skis for women that have the "sweet spot" and binding mount moved forward. And few question the validity of why it works.

Hmmm, this goes along with what Andy Pruitt was saying about women using their butt muscles differently than men. Also, what application does this have for women and cycling?


BTW, last night I got chided by a guy on another forum for spending money on an expensive custom frame which will he says will have a 50-50 chance of giving me proper fit. His reasoning was that there is a stock frame that will fit just as well. Of course, he is 5'6" and not in the market for a finely tuned fit.

Kathi