Hollowgram SL on PF30 Frame

[R3awak3n]

Finally got to try and install a set of Hollowgram SLs on my PF30 frame and failed. I knew this might happen but was hopping for the best.

I am using the 104mm spindle withe the shoulder and I think the spindle is too short.

I am also use a SRAM PF30 BB with the supplied BB cover. The problem is when I put any kind of torque in the DS bolt the crank has too much drag. I also cannot see the Wavy washer at all to know if its getting compressed or not (leading me to think the spindle is too short).

I think I remember reading that I probably need the SISL2 109mm spindle, question is do I need the spacer (SL2 2.5mm spacer)? Also on the SISL you install the washer and shims on the drive side, on the SISL2 on the NDS so if I get the 109mm spindle do install the washer and shims the way the SISL is suppose to be or the SISL2?

Hope I have the right answer here, need to order the 109mm spindle but figured some knowledge from here might help.

Thank you!

[velomonkey]

ohhhh Gawd!!!! :bike:

OK, so love me some BB30 SILS2 cranks - hate me some BB89 - BB90 or whatever. Got my SISL2 cranks on my press fit BB30 frame, but NOT my BB89 frame!!!!!

This whole BB thing sucks!!!! If it's press fit - BB30. If not, threaded regular!!!! But, alas, not the case . . . . . . . .

Chime in . . . .group.

[kramnnim]

Hmm. What is the frame?

Is the spider lockring the newer version? (black vs silver)

I don't think you should need the long spindle with a normal PF30 BB...but I think the silver lockring was a problem.

[R3awak3n]

Frame is a spooky havocstaff.

No spidering, its the old silver SL cranks and I am using praxis rings. The color of the lockring is siver but it sits flush... I read something about the old lockring being a problem, let me investigate that.

@velomonkey, yes PF30 is a PITA. I had a campy crank with an adaptor on it and worked great but I wanted to try the hollowgrams... I know its going to drive me crazy ahah.


edit: I am torn because a new lockring might solve my problem but I also have read a lot of problems with the shorter spindle (from clearance to chainline) so part of me wants to just get the new spindle which allows me to use spacers to get better chain line and to most likely solve this problem.

Should cost the same amount of money since buying a new lockring also requires me to buy a $40 lockring removal tool.

[kramnnim]

The new lockring just has the corners tapered off of the 4 nubs for the notches.

...that probably doesn't make sense.

http://www.cannondaleexperts.com/Cannondale-Hollowgram-Spider-Lockring--KP021_p_478.html

If you compare it to yours, you can see where they removed material. If you were good with a Dremel, you could likely DIY.

Happy to lend you the tool for the cost of postage.

(I like the narrower Q factor, so the longer spindle would not be a good thing for me.)

[R3awak3n]

I see what you mean and just went online looking for the new lock ring, seems like its sold out everywhere, probably would have to check at a cannondale dealer in NYC, I am sure they can order one.

I do have a dremmel, I could probably do it. I guess for $30 I would probably not attempt it but if I can't find it its a great idea.

I have again changed my decision and think I am going to go the lock ring way and try it first. I wanted to polish the crankset but didnt want to remove the lockring so if I am going to remove it I might just well polish it :)

Thanks for the help kramnnin, I really appreciate it. There is so little on this topic that I had been searching for hours and found some good information but its all over the place specially that some is for the SISL2 and some for the SL.

Thanks again.


edit: maybe someone has one here, posting in the classifieds :)

[R3awak3n]

Also, my lockring looks like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/50271552@N06/6821017346/in/photostream/

So the new lockring has less "notches" as well?

[kramnnim]

Oh, wow...yeah, that would be a lot of Dremeling.

All the lockrings that I've seen have only 4 nubs/notches. Would be much easier to Dremel.

[R3awak3n]

ahha yeah, I guess there was even an updated silver lock ring. This must be the even older one. I guess the tool works on this and the newer one (I just ordered the tool). Just looked everywhere online and no one has this damn lock ring. Going to call some local shops tomorrow.

Thanks man!

[zzy]

I'd be wary of getting a thinner lockring to lower the q factor/stance. When I installed that exact crank on my '12 Allez frame ("OSBB" AKA BB30), the chainrings sat too close to the frame for the derailleur to shift to the small ring. Had to uninstall it and install another wavy washer and a couple shims. Not sure if your shell width is different, but a 104mm spindle should work fine with a 68mm shell. The bearings are fully seated and flush to the frame with the dustcovers?

If you need to order parts Ride Brooklyn has a pretty big CDale account and has helped me out in the past.

[R3awak3n]

yeah, everything is sitting flush but I cannot even see the wave washer, it sits too close to the bearing covers and that is what lead me to think that the spindle might be too small. That and the multiple posts on weight weenies, some guys were trying to install an SRM but others had the same problems (only on PF30 frames).

If I were to get the new spindle (longer one) I would have to install a spacer on the DS and then some spacers on the NDS. Its a better system at least to achieve perfect chainline. Probably a reason cdale went that way.

Good info on ride brooklyn, there is one right by my house, I will call tomorrow to order the lockring and/or spindle.

[zzy]

Well, this is what I didn't wanna say, but I'm not sure if you can use the SiSL2 spindle with a older Hollowgram crankset. The older spindles have a ridge/shoulder which helps seat the crankarm and align it with the shell. Then again, I suppose there's no reason why you can't make it work (they're both 30mm wide and have the same splines) but it could be an issue. If you're already improvising I guess necessity is the mother of invention.

[R3awak3n]

Well, this is what I didn't wanna say, but I'm not sure if you can use the SiSL2 spindle with a older Hollowgram crankset. The older spindles have a ridge/shoulder which helps seat the crankarm and align it with the shell. Then again, I suppose there's no reason why you can't make it work (they're both 30mm wide and have the same splines) but it could be an issue. If you're already improvising I guess necessity is the mother of invention.

From what I read its possible to use the 109 SISL2 spindle with the older hollowgram but it will affect the Q-Factor which is fine I guess.

I am going to try to get that new lockring and see if it works that way and if doesnt than I will try with the longer spindle, really dont want to have to do that if I don't have to. Meanwhile I am polishing the crankset so I have time ahha.

These are going to look awesome:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1234143_212152628947919_737090399_n.jpg?oh=c945933 2d6ade9feaf7500ebb574c6b3&oe=55AE13DB&__gda__=1436171858_a2e6a4436691eb5957cdd72bf4ffd5b 6

[kramnnim]

Wow. That does look quite nice.

The 109mm will work with the arms, you'll just have to move spacers around to get the chainline you want.

I cannot see my wavy washer...

The PF30 lockring isnt thinner, it just has those edges tapered. I think they hit the plastic shell/insert?

Hmm, I think I am using a plastic spacer and no bearing shield on my NDS. That allowed the DS to shift to the right.

[R3awak3n]

I just went back and tried to put it all together again just to make sure I was doing it right. Decided to not put any shim and just the wave washer. Starts out ok and when I put torque in its when it starts to drag until it barely moves.

Pull the crank out and when I feel the bearings they have drag, the crank pushing the bearings in (the bearings covers) and preventing them from spinning.

I guess the pf30 lockring probably tapers so not to hit the bearing cover in a way to stop it from spinning.

I still feel like the whole thing is pushing in too much and loading the bearings and stopping them from spinning.

So you think you don't have a bearing shield? I think that without the shield it would probably work fine but then wouldn't dust and dirt get in there?

[kramnnim]

The plastic thing I'm using is close to the same diameter as the bearing shield, it's just thinner. It doesn't seal very well, but the bearing isn't completely exposed. (plus the bearing itself has seals)

I'm wondering if your lockring is contacting the plastic insert before the wavy washer?

[zzy]

I think that without the shield it would probably work fine but then wouldn't dust and dirt get in there?

The BB30 bearings are already sealed, so if you keep them greased it shouldn't be a problem. The dustcovers aren't necessary but do help protect the seals. Also remember that the crank arms aren't self extracting. You need a stupid tool to pull a fully seated crankarm. I also have a couple old hollowgram dustcovers sitting around that you could have if you need them, and shims.

Also my original carbon "hollowgram" Cannondale cranks (made by FSA) needed a special NDS plastic bit too to correct install.

[R3awak3n]

The plastic thing I'm using is close to the same diameter as the bearing shield, it's just thinner. It doesn't seal very well, but the bearing isn't completely exposed. (plus the bearing itself has seals)

I'm wondering if your lockring is contacting the plastic insert before the wavy washer?


Its possible, I am going to call a cannondale dealer tomorrow and order that lockring. Install that and if it doesn't work try to install without the NDS bearing shield (I looked at it and it does have some seals so it should be fine).

Thanks for the help :hello:

[R3awak3n]

The BB30 bearings are already sealed, so if you keep them greased it shouldn't be a problem. The dustcovers aren't necessary but do help protect the seals. Also remember that the crank arms aren't self extracting. You need a stupid tool to pull a fully seated crankarm. I also have a couple old hollowgram dustcovers sitting around that you could have if you need them, and shims.

Also my original carbon "hollowgram" Cannondale cranks (made by FSA) needed a special NDS plastic bit too to correct install.

yeah, luckily I read a bunch of stories of people that needed to remove the crank to add a shim or 2 and not being able because they needed the stupid cannondale $50 part. I actually got mine on ebay for $20 which was fine but there is a way to get it out with a normal crank puller (there is a video on youtube that shows how to do it)

I just want to get these damn things installed even though I wont be ridding for another 2/3 weeks

[kramnnim]

They're really nice cranks, when you finally do get them installed.

[R3awak3n]

haha I hope so, hope I feel some difference from the carbon centaur cranks that were in there. At about 180g lighter its a pretty awesome crankset and I got it for a great deal.

[rburnham13]

You need a 109MM spindle. Very easy to get from any Cannondale dealer. I know my shop in Newburyport, MA has a few. It will just be a slight pain in the ass to adjust the spacing with crank spacers. Not a big deal.
The other thing you need is, Cannondale specific bearing shields, also available from a dealer. They seat on the bearing just right. Plus they come in a few colors. Red, Green, and Black. Sometimes, I have even had to use the wavy washer on the drive side, with a couple of crack spacers. Just make sure you have your chain line dialed.

[R3awak3n]

I am ordering a 109mm spindle and a lockring. Going to try the lockring first with the 104mm and see if that works, if it doesn't I will use the 109mm with spacers.

Thanks for the help everyone!

[R3awak3n]

Got the PF30 lockring today and installed the crankset on the 104mm spindle and still did not work. I know it does not make any sense because it should work but it doesn't. When I torque down the DS arm the crankset barely spins.

Luckily I had also got the 109mm spindle just in case and have installed it with the 109mm spindle and it the crank spins nicely. The new Spindle also goes in easier than the old one, I can almost get it all in out out by hand (old one I needed a mallet) which I think is keeping the bearings spinning better.

I know the Q factor will be higher and I might have to move my cleat on the NDS a couple of mm to the right but it seems to work fine so I am going to go with the 109mm spindle.

http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r522/r3awak3n/DSCF2952.jpg

[Neil]

I've just found myself in exactly this situation, which is odd as the exact same setup worked perfectly on the old BB - before I killed it riding in the rain* last year at Ride100.

I've used a Wheels MFG unit this time and exactly the same experience as the OP, binding, somewhere.

[R3awak3n]

I've just found myself in exactly this situation, which is odd as the exact same setup worked perfectly on the old BB - before I killed it riding in the rain* last year at Ride100.

I've used a Wheels MFG unit this time and exactly the same experience as the OP, binding, somewhere.

yeah I tried the lockring with the 104mm and no good, too tight and could not get not even half a rotation out of the crankset when torqued to 40.

Now with the 109mm, following the SISL2 instructions all nice and torqued to 40mn crankset spins 3 times no problem. Nice and smooth but haven't gone on a ride yet (hopefully it won't be creaky). I do know that the NDS is maybe a couple of mm off compared to the DS but I can move my cleat a tiny bit.

I also had to tilt my FD a tiny bit in to clear small ring to big in the back but seems to be shifting perfectly now.

[beeatnik]

I have a 1978 Richard Sachs frame, can I run a Hollowgram on there and which spindle would I need?








I keed, I keed.

[Neil]

The frustrating thing is that I know it CAN work:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14213906250_6dac95fd61_b.jpg

I wonder if the back of the spider is dragging on the edge of the cup, which the longer spindle cures? But then why did it work when I had the old BB in the picture, slightly thinner cup lip?

[Neil]

I did a bit of work on this today.

My setup is a PF30 shell, with a Wheels MFG PF30 BB.

I have the 104mm Hollowgram SL crank with a Power2Max Type-S 110 BCD spider.

Assembling it with a 1mm drive side spacer and before I got anywhere near the 38Nm set on the torque wrench the crank was binding.

Disassembling everything revealed why:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7662/17266469825_a9296e557e_b.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8684/17240497856_960a096358_b.jpg

I've now assembled it and the crank spins perfectly, nothing is rubbing or touching - but I don't have any external bearing shields in there.

This is, I grant you, sub-optimal.

What is needed is a bearing shield that doesn't drag on the outer part of the bearing when compressed onto the inner part of the bearing when you tighten the drive side crank bolt.

I might experiment with some of the Cannondale bearing shields, but if that gets me nowhere then I'll get some un-crushed Enduro bearing shields and the 109mm axle.

Thinking about it as I type maybe assembling with no spacers in the first place might have been the best idea - but first time round I thought that the back of the pwoermeter spider might be rubbing on the PF30 cup, so went for more, rather than fewer, spacers than I might otherwise have done.

[Neil]

Just reassembled - had been running with the normal axle, no bearing shields and a 2mm spacer on the drive side. This (I believe) applied too much preload and killed the bearings, which sucks, but hey ho.

Anyway, it's back together with the SRM specific axle, the SRM bearing shields, no spacers - spins freely, no binding and feels "right", albeit it's only in the stand, I've yet to ride it.

I hope you can just knock the bearings out of a wheels MFG PF30 shell and press new ones in?

[R3awak3n]

With a powermeter should you not be using the 109mm anyways?

AFAIK the 104mm was never meant to be used with a power meter and there were tons of people with that problem that some even machined the shoulder on the spindle. I think the 109mm would let you used whatever bearings covers you want but it would definitely add to the Q factor.

I have gone on a couple of rides and its been very solid.

[Neil]

I've had two SRM's and one P2M on Hollowgrams, never used the 109mm axle for any of them.

If I can get the 104 to work with PF30 then I'll be happy - it's spinning well in the stand, tomorrow is the test.

[R3awak3n]

I've had two SRM's and one P2M on Hollowgrams, never used the 109mm axle for any of them.

If I can get the 104 to work with PF30 then I'll be happy - it's spinning well in the stand, tomorrow is the test.


Should be fine if it spins good in the stand but you never know. So did you put the bearing covers back in?

[Neil]

Yes, so the complete setup is:

- Wheels MFG PF30 BB
- SRM specific Cannondale bearing covers (0.5mm thinner on NDS side due to groove cut in that axle sits in)
- SRM specific 104mm axle- 1mm machined off the shoulder that locates the axle against the NDS bearing shield
- Wavey washer
- SiSl cranks, P2M spider

The above installed, torqued up to 40Nm.