Motors on bikes in the peleton

[jimoots]

Came across this article on CT, don't know what to think.

Is this legit? Or are the UCI just creating a diversion?

It feels like a very different kind of cheating compared with good old drugs.



Commenting after the Cycling Independent Reform Commission outlined a real danger that riders are, or could, be using motors in bikes, UCI president Brian Cookson has admitted that this could be the case.

The Briton has said that the UCI is taking the matter extremely seriously and warned any teams or riders tempted by the mode of cheating that the consequences could be ‘devastating’ for them.

“Our information is that this is a very real possibility. We don’t have any firm evidence but we are absolutely aware that these products are out there and that it is a possibility,” Cookson told CyclingTips in an exclusive interview conducted on Thursday.

“Given that there have been various allegations and rumours and evidence given to the CIRC that this was a potential area of cheating, we have obviously decided that this is something we should check up on on a regular basis.”

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/03/cookson-on-motors-in-bikes-our-information-is-that-this-is-a-very-real-possibility/

[Louis]

I'm as cynical as the next guy, but would truly be floored if it turned out that any of the pros in the peleton had a motor hidden in the bike.

Plus, unlike PEDs, it's indisputable. (Unless you argue that you really didn't know what that "Turbo" switch hidden in the shifters did, but that would truly be insane.)

[Michael Maddox]

I had to look it up. Has anyone ever seen one of these?

Vivax Assist. I can't link it for some reason.

[Peter B]

200w but maybe not for the WW.

[earlfoss]

If the public has only been aware of these motors for maybe a year or so I think it's a pretty safe bet that they've been used in the pro peloton.

Why wouldn't a pro use it if no one is expecting anyone to use one, it's silent, and there's no control for them by the UCI?

I'd be surprised if one hasn't been used yet, to be honest. They're getting paid to win races or fulfill a team role, not be the best at exercising.

[Ralph]

That is clever.

[cmg]

have a hard time believing something that small can provide the kind of torque it would take to propel someone to a win. if a company develops a motor that small that could go 20+ miles per hour for an hour it would have just solved the energy problem. why sell to it cyclist more money could be made adapting it to a motorcycle or car. look at the gear ratio of the device, compare it to what you have to do to go up hill. don't beleive it.

[Louis]

Guys, this is old news. That design's been around for quite a while - there's no surprise or secret there.

[pbarry]

This came up a few years ago, re: Spartacus' spectacular late, winning surge..

[xjoex]

There is no way a battery could power a motor fast enough while remaining light enough to benefit a rider in the pro peloton over a 100 mile distance.

-Joe

[bluesea]

Best bet is to check the bikes of the U.S. elite masters. Either that or at the bigger gran fondo.

[ceolwulf]

All it really needs to do is add 30 or 40 watts over the duration of a climb.

[Dead Man]

have a hard time believing something that small can provide the kind of torque it would take to propel someone to a win. if a company develops a motor that small that could go 20+ miles per hour for an hour it would have just solved the energy problem. why sell to it cyclist more money could be made adapting it to a motorcycle or car. look at the gear ratio of the device, compare it to what you have to do to go up hill. don't beleive it.

One word: Domestique.

[Louis]

All it really needs to do is add 30 or 40 watts over the duration of a climb.

I'm guessing here, but I bet that in order for there to be a significant benefit they would have to shave down the weight of everything else so there was no net weight increase due to the motor + battery. (otherwise the extra weight would be holding you back for the rest of the ride, when the motor was not on, and likely be an overall negative for the entire ride)

Is there so much extra weight in frames and components that they have budget to remove 1.8 kg (motor + battery) from the rest of the system?

[Pastashop]

There is no way a battery could power a motor fast enough while remaining light enough to benefit a rider in the pro peloton over a 100 mile distance.



-Joe


It only has to provide some power assist...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000X1TYO4/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/184-8741575-6964468?fp=1&pc_redir=1427595912#productDescription_secondary_v iew_pageState_1427595927354

The energy density and power density of batteries and electric motors are such that a 20-50 Watt boost could be achieved for an hour or so, with about 2 lbs of extra weight and 1 liter of volume that easily fits inside those large diameter tubes of modern frames. On a climb to the finish, this could make a big difference.

But to make things look seamless, a device like that would have to deliver torque to the crank shaft, not the chainwheel or rear wheel directly.

Anyhow, just go back to 531 steel tubes and all but eliminate the possibility. :-)

[LJohnny]

Are you guys telling me that you never heard of the hoopla about Cancellara riding on of these a few years back? :bike:

[wallymann]

these systems are noisy. that worm gear and motor system generates alot of vibration and modern plastic bikes just resonate to the hills. no way anyone gets away with this.

[jimoots]

I'm as cynical as the next guy, but would truly be floored if it turned out that any of the pros in the peleton had a motor hidden in the bike.


As cynical I am (welcome to the club btw) it is a stretch for me to imagine that Cookson is inventing this issue.

Or perhaps looking at this another way, compared with doping, sticking a motor on a bike is way f**cking more unpalatable for the general punter and sponsor alike. Makes the sport seem dirty as f**k. To bring such a 'full on' (for lack of better descriptor) issue out of nowhere seems irresponsible if it is not actually an issue.


Plus, unlike PEDs, it's indisputable. (Unless you argue that you really didn't know what that "Turbo" switch hidden in the shifters did, but that would truly be insane.)

It certainly would be hard for a team to say they had no part. And that's where the article heads. If a rider is busted, then surely the team is complicit, so where can you go from there?

It is surely an untenable situation, the team gets booted, seeya later. A big deal.


Is there so much extra weight in frames and components that they have budget to remove 1.8 kg (motor + battery) from the rest of the system?


In the CT comments it is suggested a system power assist system with existing commercially available tech could be put together under 1kg. Essentially the short answer is yes.

There is no way a battery could power a motor fast enough while remaining light enough to benefit a rider in the pro peloton over a 100 mile distance.

-Joe


You don't need to be able to ride 160km assisted, you need to be able to drop everyone else at a crucial moment and then hold on.

We're not talking about riding away from the peleton in the first kilometer.

And we're not talking about pulling up someone who is not fit and turning them into a pro cyclist thanks to a motor.

This is the same concept as doping. Taking a really f'n strong pro cyclist and giving them an edge over all the other really f'n strong pro cyclists.

[oldpotatoe]

pelOton

[Stephen2014]

Floyd Landis!!!!


A little assistance is a big help otherwise there would be no magic spanner or sticky drink bottle.

[regularguy412]

I'm in agreement with the general consensus so far on this thread.

Probably not gonna use it 'full time' in a race,, just at critical moments.

Domestiques are more likely to be using something like this rather than the favorites.

If it makes too much noise to run one, then only use it on cobbles or in the midst of raging crowds on climbs where the ambient noise would likely drown out any hum and whir of a motor running or gears meshing.

It was once said that bike racing is like a boxing match AND a chess match going on at the same time while on two wheels. Pro Cyclists aren't always complete imbeciles.

So mebbe the UCI should impound a selection of bikes at random after some of the Spring Classics (kinda like they do in Moto GP) so that no shenanigans can go on until the bikes can be x-rayed. Seems a harsh step, but it is sure would be easier to catch that than the current Biological Profile/Pre- and Post-Race Doping control scheme we currently have in place.

Mike in AR:beer:

[Rusty Luggs]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-check-36-milan-san-remo-bikes-for-motors

[Mike V]

This it what all the hubbub is about.

http://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE

[54ny77]

Sweet! I'll take two. :cool:

[2LeftCleats]

In the future, I suspect some on the forum will be bashing the SRAM version for being less robust than either the Shimano or Campy products.

[RFC]

Agree with above. Only has to provide some assist.

Rather than a mechanical gear, I wonder if it would be possible to use an electromagnet set up to help the rider pull through the stroke.

[Black Dog]

There is no way a battery could power a motor fast enough while remaining light enough to benefit a rider in the pro peloton over a 100 mile distance.

-Joe

Sure could. If the motor is 1.8kg it would be easy to put it in a bike that is well below the UCI weight limit and bring that bike just above the limit. There are courses where this would be an almost certain win for the guy who has it.

[ntb1001]

In the future, I suspect some on the forum will be bashing the SRAM version for being less robust than either the Shimano or Campy products.


Lol...I'll wait for the Campy version.

[seanile]

Soo an o-ring is supposed to keep that power generator from rotating itself in the seat tube ?

[Dead Man]

Soo an o-ring is supposed to keep that power generator from rotating itself in the seat tube ?

I'm guessing they have to use some kind of compression plug or epoxied in rail of some sort. No way an o-ring alone can even come close to enough friction

[brockd15]

This it what all the hubbub is about.

http://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE

Wow...

[velomonkey]

If it makes too much noise to run one, then only use it on cobbles or in the midst of raging crowds on climbs where the ambient noise would likely drown out any hum and whir of a motor running or gears meshing.


As noted by others - you only use it at the time, moment you "need" it. In any given pro race the noise is LOUD - as in way, way louder than what you hear on a TV broadcast. This is particularly true in the parts of the course where said moves are made. Gotta remember, the broadcast you are seeing is made possible by a low-flying helicopter - they are all over the key moments of the race and they make sure they are in position - as such they hover over the areas before, during and after - so noise would not be an issue whatsoever. Helicopter, plus teams cars proceeding through beeping their horns, plus a ton of pumped of fans equals a lot of noise.

[alessandro]

Nice bit of explaining from Cycling Tips on the Vivax Assist motor:

Hidden motors for road bikes exist — here’s how they work
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/

Only $3300 US for the basic system, plus an extra $540 or so for the Invisible Performance Package.

Possible tipoff: Only works with Shimano Hollowtech II cranks.