Spoke Count Question

[moose8]

I always have assumed with handbuilt "traditional" wheels I needed at least a 32 spoke wheel given that I weigh 200 pounds pretty regularly. I've got a 36 spoke front schmidt handbuilt wheel that has gone out of true before, and same with a 32 whole powertap I picked up used but had trued at a bike shop. But because I am kind of clueless I only very recently realized that my fixed gear bike, which I have commuted probably at least 2000 miles on in the last five years or so if not much more than that (I rotate bikes pretty regularly, but this one has a lot of use) only has 28 spokes front and rear. I commute in Boston and regularly hit potholes and the the like, and these things have never been anything less than perfectly true. They are paul hubs on some alex rims - I picked the bike up off craigslist awhile ago and didn't pay any attention to the wheels because I just assumed they were a higher count since the guy I bought it from was my size. But when I just noticed it it got me wondering what's the difference in these wheels and other wheels I have- is it just whoever built them did a better job? It also got me wondering if maybe I could safely get away with less than 32 or 36 and just go with a good wheelbuilder. Any insight is appreciated.

[eddief]

and do just fine, so far, on wheels built with 28 decent butted spokes. This is on my smooth pavement road bikes with 25 mm tires pumped to 80 psi - no baggage except me.

And I think your guess is dead on. A lot depends on how well they are built, trued, and tensioned right from the start. My guess is our resident wheel guru would say stick with 32.

[MattTuck]

I have a pair of 10+ year old bontrager race lite wheels, 20 spoke front. I've been up and down, but probably average 200 or more during the thousands of miles I rode on it. I crashed and rear wheel was damaged, I got 105 hub laced to an opensport rim. Had tons of problems with it, almost from the get go.

I think a wheel's durability with regards to truing has a lot to do with the initial build, plain and simple.

[PacNW2Ford]

Are the other bikes geared? The fixed gear rear wheel has less dish than a geared bike would.

[moose8]

Are the other bikes geared? The fixed gear rear wheel has less dish than a geared bike would.

The other bikes are geared, but the front wheel has taken the brunt of some very hard hits and is totally fine, whereas my 36-hole schmidtt laced to an open pro has gone out of true after hitting a pothole on a descent.

[weisan]

Waiting for old pal to wake up and cup of coffee...

[Latestart]

The type and shape of rim makes a big difference. Does your fixie have 'deep vee' rims. The "taller" the rim, the stiffer and the fewer holes required. I have several sets of wheels that have been fine with lower spoke counts. I weigh between 220 and 230 throughout the year - 6'4".

Mavic Askium, Fulcrum 1's, Rovals all 28 spoke or less. No issue riding NorCal roads which are decent, but not mirror smooth.

[Davist]

Spokes alone won't tell the story, on a fixie, if you have deep dish "aero" type rims as seems to be the style, the rim is plenty strong for reduced spoke counts. I'm about 190 or so, been using H+Son Archetypes at 24/28 for 4k miles and shimano wheels at 16/20 and both work just fine, even did a couple gravel races with each.

[numbskull]

is it just whoever built them did a better job?.

Balanced and correct spoke tension seems to be the hallmark of a well built wheel and, as I understand it, more important than spoke count in determining the stability of wheel trueness during use.

[oldpotatoe]

I always have assumed with handbuilt "traditional" wheels I needed at least a 32 spoke wheel given that I weigh 200 pounds pretty regularly. I've got a 36 spoke front schmidt handbuilt wheel that has gone out of true before, and same with a 32 whole powertap I picked up used but had trued at a bike shop. But because I am kind of clueless I only very recently realized that my fixed gear bike, which I have commuted probably at least 2000 miles on in the last five years or so if not much more than that (I rotate bikes pretty regularly, but this one has a lot of use) only has 28 spokes front and rear. I commute in Boston and regularly hit potholes and the the like, and these things have never been anything less than perfectly true. They are paul hubs on some alex rims - I picked the bike up off craigslist awhile ago and didn't pay any attention to the wheels because I just assumed they were a higher count since the guy I bought it from was my size. But when I just noticed it it got me wondering what's the difference in these wheels and other wheels I have- is it just whoever built them did a better job? It also got me wondering if maybe I could safely get away with less than 32 or 36 and just go with a good wheelbuilder. Any insight is appreciated.

Lots of variables not the least of which is the rim of each wheel. Additionally, 'fixed gear' which may mean a symmetrical or nearly so, rear wheel. Spoke tension left right the same or nearly so. The 2 wheels mentioned didn't go out of true because they had too many spokes.

BUT no such thing as a free lunch. Light-ish rim and 200 pounds regardless of the wheelbuilder's skill 'may' make for an unreliable wheel.

Remember that 4 spokes also weigh 28 grams or so, an ounce. A Powerbar weighs twice that.

For just above..it's not just even tension and proper tension..it's the whole wheel design for the rider then good execution. Take a big boy, a 20/24 on a 325 gram aluminum rim with perfect tension and exact tension and that big boy will probably have issues with it. There are some exceptions but...

I get a kick out of .1 offa ton riders who want to save a couple of ounces on wheels. Far better to 'save weight' other places. AND "to finish first you must first finish" and other pithy comments in quotes.

[moose8]

The 28 hole rims are Alex r350 which are supposed to be light scandium clinchers from as far as google could tell me. The ones that I have in 32 and 36 that have gone out of true are mavic open pros.

[oldpotatoe]

The 28 hole rims are Alex r350 which are supposed to be light scandium clinchers from as far as google could tell me. The ones that I have in 32 and 36 that have gone out of true are mavic open pros.

Those are light rims..I suspect the symmetrical rear wheel may have something to do with it all. OpenPro is not my favorite rim, I mentioned that before. BUT who knows..wheelbuilder skill does have an impact. BUT they didn't go out of true because they were 4 or 8 spokes more than the Alex.

BUT I would not use these alex rims for you on a cassette type rear wheel, whether they be 32 or 28h. Too light, IMHO.

[moose8]

Those are light rims..I suspect the symmetrical rear wheel may have something to do with it all. OpenPro is not my favorite rim, I mentioned that before. BUT who knows..wheelbuilder skill does have an impact. BUT they didn't go out of true because they were 4 or 8 spokes more than the Alex.

BUT I would not use these alex rims for you on a cassette type rear wheel, whether they be 32 or 28h. Too light, IMHO.

Thanks. This forum is great for learning from people who know way more than me. Since you and some others mentioned other factors it got me wondering if maybe my tire choice has made a difference - on the Alex rims I have enormous heavy duty city tires that are 35mm whereas the other wheels only ever have 23 or 25s on them.

[shovelhd]

Components are important but it really is all about the build. Well built wheels will stay true even when stressed close to the limit. That said, carbon rims change that perspective somewhat. These rims are just crazy strong. A well built 56mm carbon wheel set with 18/24 spokes should have no problem holding up to a 200 pound rider.

[redir]

FWIW I am 205lbs, should be ten pounds lighter) and I've broken enough spokes on low spoke light weight bling wheels to know not to ever bother with it again. There is nothing worse then paying $40 to enter a race and break a spoke ten miles in.

[FlashUNC]

As others mentioned above, comes down to the wheel builder, the parts used and the rider.

I'm in your weight range and fairly regularly rode some 24 spoke HED Belgium rims laced to Chris Kings with Sapims without much issue. But I've also found that despite my weight, I'm fairly gentle on equipment. I have some buddies who weigh 40-50 pounds less than me who break wheel bits on the regular, but they also seem to find every pothole in the road.

So I think its a combo of both the materials the rider is given, and how he uses them.

But you're right, tending towards overbuilt isn't necessarily a bad thing. As Old Tater mentions, it isn't as if the weight penalties are really that big.

[moose8]

But you're right, tending towards overbuilt isn't necessarily a bad thing. As Old Tater mentions, it isn't as if the weight penalties are really that big.

I've got enough extra weight on me that the wheel weight difference between 28 and 32 cannot really matter. I was just surprised I was riding such low count wheels and haven't had a problem. Also after my commute in the rain this morning it became clear I have r390 rims, not r350 - there was mud that totally make the 9 look like a 5. The 390 looks pretty heavy duty, which starts to make sense why they've held up so well.