It was a good day, and it was sad....

[William]

What a nice day for a ride, low 60's and sunny. I had to get out there so I called one of my students who has just started road riding to see if he wanted to join me. When he gets to my place he says he want's to get a good work out..........and I have just the route (Beungood remembers this one, eh Jack? :D ). Anyway, this route has lots of steep climbing that winds through rural RI. Actually it's one of my favorite rides because it reminds me a lot of Oregon, pine forest, blankets of pine needles, and that evergreen smell. I really like doing this route early in the morning during the spring and summer months. As I come up over one of the shorter but very steep climbs that has what I affectionately "THE WALL".....(20 meters or so at the top of the climb that seems to almost go straight up) I notice that something doesn't seem quite right up ahead. I turn around and go back to wait for my riding buddy to get up the climb. I get back to the crest just in time to hear him gasp "OH MY GAWD" as he hits THE WALL. Once we're back together we continue and round a slow right hand curve...and I realize why things didn't seem right....a developer has come in and mowed down a large track of the forest to build a new plat/subdivision of homes. What was once dense pine forest is now plowed over and gone with nothing left but bare dirt and rock. In the near future there will be at least 30 -40 new McHomes bringing with it more traffic, more soccer moms, more driving teens, more cell phone drivers, more service vehicles etc... And if those homes move well, quite likely more of the woods will be knocked over for more development. It really sucks to see these areas that have always been rural and less traveled since the developing days of our country finally being over run by McMansion development that they will give a rural sounding name and sell as "Off The Beaten Track", "Back To Nature" or something ridiculous like that.

One of the things that has fascinated me about this tiny state is that people have lived here (I'm referring to settlers, not the native Americans) since the the late 1500 and early 1600's and the population has stayed concentrated around Narragansett Bay. The rest of NW, western, and much of Southern Rhode Island has remained very rural and sparsely populated. The sky high real-estate prices of the Boston and Connecticut markets have a lot to do with the expansion IMO.

It was a great day for a ride. I had a great ride. But it was also sad because one of my favorite low traffic get aways has lost some of it's luster, and it's probably a sign of things to come.


William

[Ray]

It's happening everywhere (well, LOTS of places) and it is sad. OTOH, though, most of us probably contribute to it also, so we can only complain a little bit. I currently live in an old, densely developed, colonial town so I'm innocent at the moment. But I've lived in new homes in the burbs before on what had previously been someone else's beloved farm/woods/open space, so I've certainly done my share of damage.

Until gas prices get high enough to get us to give up our love affair with the CAR, its gonna keep happening. Oh well.

-Ray

[Kevan]

for you.

Last weekend's club ride route took us down... er, mostly up... this quiet lane that hadn't "caught up" with most of the surrounding area. This road which was suitably beaten up, in spirit of PR day, had muddy tracks now crisscrossing it from heavy equipment digging up the earth so they could plop some 10,000 sqft McMansions up and down the road. Our little slice of Vermont just disappeared.

[Sandy]

for you.

Last weekend's club ride route took us down... er, mostly up... this quiet lane that hadn't "caught up" with most of the surrounding area. This road which was suitably beaten up, in spirit of PR day, had muddy tracks now crisscrossing it from heavy equipment digging up the earth so they could plop some 10,000 sqft McMansions up and down the road. Our little slice of Vermont just disappeared.

I know what I would like to disappear and it is not a little slice of Vermont....... :)


Eating a slice of apple pie,


Sweet Sandy

[Bruce K]

Sandy;

Haven't you figured out how to quit Kev yet? :D :eek: :(

BK

[Kevan]

Eating a piece of apple pie, Sweet Sandy

cheesy remark, if you ask me.

[Kevan]

Sandy;

Haven't you figured out how to quit Kev yet? :D :eek: :(

BK

right now... across the street looking up at my house and the bedroom window as we type. What do you think?

[catulle]

Provo?

[stevep]

southern ri is beautiful rode there last night w/ brumble and co out of westerly.
nice roads in that part of ct also... rolling, quiet.
roadies delight.
beautiful stone walls, oceanside, farms a little inland.

[Too Tall]

I feel yah.
Backinnaday it took all of 10 min.s to get out of the city and see pasture. That "10" min. now entails 30 or 40 min.s of riding and I'm not sure it will ever be the same. We endure. Soon you and I will be space invaders in their hood.

[Bruce K]

I rode with the "young guns" out of Seaside Cycles last night on the north shore of Boston for what was supposed to be 1.5 hours of 20mph+ "fun".

Mileage was a little shorter than planned as the "kids" decided to play Paris-Roubaix and chose a route that took us across a 100yd stretch of dirt road.

Out of the seven riders, 5 had at least 1 flat tire instantly. :eek: :D

Only the older, overweight guy (me), and the guy who I was riding beside at the time slowed down and avoided flatting. :banana:

What is it they say about age and experience overcoming youth and enthusiasm? ;)

BK

[manet]

revolution blues baby:

http://www.human-highway.org/lyrics/lyrics-09.html#002

[e-RICHIE]

revolution blues baby:

http://www.human-highway.org/lyrics/lyrics-09.html#002



sounds of silence (http://silenceofthelambs2.ytmnd.com/)

[stevep]

the faster you punch it the sooner you are over the dirt section ( at least theoretically ).
and not including fix flat time.

[William]

I feel yah.
Backinnaday it took all of 10 min.s to get out of the city and see pasture. That "10" min. now entails 30 or 40 min.s of riding and I'm not sure it will ever be the same. We endure. Soon you and I will be space invaders in their hood.


I guess since I now live in a 226 year old house & farm that I'm not on the "guilty" list right now.

I hear you TT. We'll be the invaders who need to be yelled at, spit on, or run off the road because we slow them down a couple of seconds getting to and from their "hood".

SteveP, Southern RI is very nice, a little flat, but nice. The areas I frequent most are central & western RI and over the Conn border. Some very hilly sections can be had with lot's of rural low traffic roads. Molly22 has ridden with me a few times out here, Beungood as well. They were both surprised who quiet and hilly it is. For such a small state, it does have a large amount of good, scenic riding to be had.

There are a few McMansions on this route that within the last 15 years or so were built here and there in the area. But, they are few and far between and built off the road so you don't see them hardly at all. The remainder are so called "swamp yankees" and farmers. There is one farm that the road literally cuts right through the middle of....farmhouse right on the road with pasture and cattle on both sides. The road winds through the woods, opens up on this gentleman's farm, then closes back up into woods again. Kind of a "scary" looking place, the kind that most city folk would pass by in a hurry. He actually flagged us down to ask us to go real slow past his house since his dogs love to chase cyclists. His point was (and Sandy will confirm) they're just in it for the chase, if you go slow they will leave you alone. Anyway, he was very cordial and explained that he has lived in that house his entire life (he looked to be in his 80's) and how in recent years the traffic has picked up...to us, we consider the traffic nothing, to him a few vehicles is a lot. I hate to think about him and all the traffic he will soon have cutting right through the middle of his property.


William

[spiderlake]

I hear ya! This is happening in Grand Rapids as well. Not just in bits and pieces but thousands of acres at a time. I'm all for growth but urban sprawl with an apparent disregard for the future bothers me. These new subdivisions have HUGE houses packed into tiny lots. It's almost as if sheer size trumps all other design elements.

There is a book by Susan Susanka called, "The Not So Big House" (http://www.notsobighouse.com/) that attempts to change the thought process about sheer size versus functionality. The book helped validate my personal feelings about "McMansion's" and have every intention of adhering to these principles if and when I ever find myself in a position of building or remodeling.

I came across an editorial/rant by James Howard Kunstler a while back called, "Does Edge City Have a Future", which is about the urban sprawl in Atlanta. I have no idea if Kunstler has a specific agenda or is pushing political viewpoints that I might not agree with but this article really seemed to drive the point home (for me) that we need to change our way of thinking about growth expansion and the rapidly disappearing forests, fields, wetlands, etc.





What a nice day for a ride, low 60's and sunny. I had to get out there so I called one of my students who has just started road riding to see if he wanted to join me. When he gets to my place he says he want's to get a good work out..........and I have just the route (Beungood remembers this one, eh Jack? :D ). Anyway, this route has lots of steep climbing that winds through rural RI. Actually it's one of my favorite rides because it reminds me a lot of Oregon, pine forest, blankets of pine needles, and that evergreen smell. I really like doing this route early in the morning during the spring and summer months. As I come up over one of the shorter but very steep climbs that has what I affectionately "THE WALL".....(20 meters or so at the top of the climb that seems to almost go straight up) I notice that something doesn't seem quite right up ahead. I turn around and go back to wait for my riding buddy to get up the climb. I get back to the crest just in time to hear him gasp "OH MY GAWD" as he hits THE WALL. Once we're back together we continue and round a slow right hand curve...and I realize why things didn't seem right....a developer has come in and mowed down a large track of the forest to build a new plat/subdivision of homes. What was once dense pine forest is now plowed over and gone with nothing left but bare dirt and rock. In the near future there will be at least 30 -40 new McHomes bringing with it more traffic, more soccer moms, more driving teens, more cell phone drivers, more service vehicles etc... And if those homes move well, quite likely more of the woods will be knocked over for more development. It really sucks to see these areas that have always been rural and less traveled since the developing days of our country finally being over run by McMansion development that they will give a rural sounding name and sell as "Off The Beaten Track", "Back To Nature" or something ridiculous like that.

One of the things that has fascinated me about this tiny state is that people have lived here (I'm referring to settlers, not the native Americans) since the the late 1500 and early 1600's and the population has stayed concentrated around Narragansett Bay. The rest of NW, western, and much of Southern Rhode Island has remained very rural and sparsely populated. The sky high real-estate prices of the Boston and Connecticut markets have a lot to do with the expansion IMO.

It was a great day for a ride. I had a great ride. But it was also sad because one of my favorite low traffic get aways has lost some of it's luster, and it's probably a sign of things to come.


William

[CNY rider]

A large chunk of my annual charitable giving goes to the local land trust. I would guess there are land trusts in most parts of the country. They use the money to acquire land, and sometimes to buy easements limiting development on some other parcels.

It's one charity where I can see the results of my giving almost every day. I ride past large parcels that are going to be preserved because of the land trust, and I get a lot of satisfaction out of my gift.

Something to think about. You can make a difference.

[gary135r]

What is it they say about age and experience overcoming youth and enthusiasm? ;)

BK
ever hear the story of the old ram and the young ram? too crude to tell here, but if you've heard it you get my point.

[bostondrunk]

What a nice day for a ride, low 60's and sunny. I had to get out there so I called one of my students who has just started road riding to see if he wanted to join me. When he gets to my place he says he want's to get a good work out..........
William


Brokeback William....<sniffle>...



:D

[Ahneida Ride]

Now add to the picture the Millions of illegal aliens invading the USA,
and project ahead 30 years.

The greater the population, the greater the use of currently undeveloped
land. Simple arithmetic.

[gary135r]

[QUOTE=spiderlake]These new subdivisions have HUGE houses packed into tiny lots. It's almost as if sheer size trumps all other design elements.

[QUOTE]

Same here in Maine, there is still tons of open land, but you see the pressure every day on the farmers. a horse farmer down the road from us will get offers all the time. he is sellling some some property now. I am happy that I live in a residential area that required 2 acres per lot (old school zoning) so that leaves a lot of open land between houses. The wildlife around here are not squeezed out. the new houses are these McMansions on a far smaller lot and are huge and roughly $350,000, which by Maine prices are insane. How do these young families afford it? Maybe like that Stanley Johnson commercial, "how do I do it? I'm in debt up to my eyeballs."

[spiderlake]

I don't think it has to be that way. Smaller houses, re-use/remodel existing structures, urban renewal and the like can still accomodate for growth and protect undeveloped land. Just my opinion.......

Now add to the picture the Millions of illegal aliens invading the USA,
and project ahead 30 years.

The greater the population, the greater the use of currently undeveloped
land. Simple arithmetic.

[Ray]

I don't think it has to be that way. Smaller houses, re-use/remodel existing structures, urban renewal and the like can't still accomodate for growth and protect undeveloped land. Just my opinion.......
Yeah, it still comes down to mobility. As long as people percieve gas costs as within what they're willing to pay, folks will want their one or two acres of the American Dream, because its easy to get around from there. As fuel costs continue to increase, people will gradually make different choices and we'll see more infill development and tighter, more efficient, development even in the burbs. But it isn't happening yet. Much.

-Ray

[davids]

Now add to the picture the Millions of illegal aliens invading the USA, and project ahead 30 years.
This has got to be the first time I've heard the problem of exurban sprawl tied to immigration policy. Maybe some of them are doing the landscaping...

My brother-in-law owns one of these McMansions. His family of four pretty much lives in the kitchen and den. Four years after they'd moved in, they hadn't purchased furniture for the dining room or living room. But it sure is big!

My three person family lives in a 1500 sq. ft. condo. In an ideal world, I'd like a guest bedroom and another bathroom (teenage daughter incoming!) And then I hear stories about the families of 6 or 8 that lived in these apartments a generation back, and I feel selfish. I can't imagine what I'd do with 4000 sq. ft.

[shaq-d]

lol, "mcmansions" sounds cute. it is happening all over.. toronto too. sigh. but worse, way worse, than mcmansions, is mcpeople. culture and identity are dying breeds.

sd

[Ahneida Ride]

lol, "mcmansions" sounds cute. it is happening all over.. toronto too. sigh. but worse, way worse, than mcmansions, is mcpeople. culture and identity are dying breeds.

sd

An Astute observation indeed.

May I usurp your distilled adage and add it to my repertoire ?

[ericspin]

The most important question is------ How did the new guy do???

[Tom]

All questions of whether building outside the town center is good or not, why do they need to knock down all the trees? Despite the extra effort it takes to work around them, you'd think they'd add to the value of what the developer can get for the properties. But I suppose somebody paying $350K for a quarter acre lot and a yarn floored box where you can pee into your neighbor's living room from your second floor window doesn't care much about the trees.

My neighborhood's about fifty years old and they must have tried to save at least a few of the trees when they put it in and it looks really nice as a result. Other neighborhoods around town were done where they were really careful about it and they look like they've always been there even though they're only about 40 years old. Then you get what looks like an airport runway with toothpicks stuck in along the side and it's really hard to see the appeal.

[gasman]

William-

Well the same thing is happening in Oregon but with a different twist. We do have houses being built but the rural forested areas continue to be logged. Sad to have roads with moss growing on them have their character changed so much by clear cutting whole hillsides. Sigh.

[Bill Bove]

the Millions of illegal aliens invading the USA,

Let's not forget here that those who have done the most harm to this country came here legally from an ally (15 of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia legally) while all those illegals keep the price of tomatoes and most other forms of manual labor down.

[JohnS]

What I don't get is that most of these McMansions are totally woodframe or maybe face brick on the front. Whatever happened to all-brick houses?

[bulliedawg]

I've read several urban planning books. One author pointed out how ironic it is that subdivisions are usually named for the thing that they displaced or knocked down to build, like "Willow Run," or "Swallow Hollow." Well, there used to be willows and swallows, but they're all gone now.

[Ray]

What I don't get is that most of these McMansions are totally woodframe or maybe face brick on the front. Whatever happened to all-brick houses?
Same thing that happened to lugged steel frames...

[72gmc]

William, I feel the same pain when I visit my dad's place: Lake Tapps, out by Enumclaw and Bonney Lake, for those familiar with western Washington. When I was a 16-year-old Greg Lemond wannabe the roads around the lake were rural and indirect, all twisty loopy up-and-down fun with very little traffic. Now it's cookie cutter developments and deforestation on all sides--hundreds of new families, hundreds more on the way, and the county hasn't even widened most of the roads.

Too often out here the developers are waaay ahead of the planners, with the expected results. But I do enjoy the cheesy development names, particularly "Hidden View"--they aren't lying, that view is very well hidden.

[BumpyintheBurgh]

"They paved paradise And put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique And a swinging hot spot
Don’t it always seem to go That you don’t know what you’ve got
Till it’s gone
They paved paradise And put up a parking lot"

"They took all the trees Put ’em in a tree museum
And they charged the people A dollar and a half just to see ’em"

Joni Mitchell - "Big Yellow Taxi" - 1970

Developers are out of control and have the support of the politicians who welcome the big money contributions that allow them to stay in office. Grass roots efforts and environmental groups just don't have the money to compete. The townships want the added tax base and revenues so they encourage the development. It's a sad state of affairs.

[Kevan]

Shorts, short sleeve jersey, fingerless gloves, 30 miles and sweat to boot!

The season has arrived!

Umm... along the lines of urban development, I now recall why it is we ride so early in the morning... it'sa freaking jungle out there in the afternoon!

[Kirk Pacenti]

Here we stand
Like an Adam and an Eve
Waterfalls
The Garden of Eden
Two fools in love
So beautiful and strong
The birds in the trees
Are smiling upon them
From the age of the dinosaurs
Cars have run on gasoline
Where, where have they gone?
Now, it's nothing but flowers

There was a factory
Now there are mountains and rivers
you got it, you got it

We caught a rattlesnake
Now we got something for dinner
we got it, we got it

There was a shopping mall
Now it's all covered with flowers
you've got it, you've got it

If this is paradise
I wish I had a lawnmower
you've got it, you've got it

Years ago
I was an angry young man
I'd pretend
That I was a billboard
Standing tall
By the side of the road
I fell in love
With a beautiful highway
This used to be real estate
Now it's only fields and trees
Where, where is the town
Now, it's nothing but flowers
The highways and cars
Were sacrificed for agriculture
I thought that we'd start over
But I guess I was wrong

Once there were parking lots
Now it's a peaceful oasis
you got it, you got it

This was a Pizza Hut
Now it's all covered with daisies
you got it, you got it

I miss the honky tonks,
Dairy Queens, and 7-Elevens
you got it, you got it

And as things fell apart
Nobody paid much attention
you got it, you got it

I dream of cherry pies,
Candy bars, and chocolate chip cookies
you got it, you got it

We used to microwave
Now we just eat nuts and berries
you got it, you got it

This was a discount store,
Now it's turned into a cornfield
you got it, you got it

Don't leave me stranded here
I can't get used to this lifestyle

[shaq-d]

An Astute observation indeed.

May I usurp your distilled adage and add it to my repertoire ?

sure thing.. it started years ago when my buds and i would refer to people as "cosmo"..meaning, readers of cosmopolitan..distillers of the norm.. repeaters of pop pulp.. mcpeople is just as good a name as any :p

sd

[Frankwurst]

"They paved paradise And put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique And a swinging hot spot
Don’t it always seem to go That you don’t know what you’ve got
Till it’s gone
They paved paradise And put up a parking lot"

"They took all the trees Put ’em in a tree museum
And they charged the people A dollar and a half just to see ’em"

Joni Mitchell - "Big Yellow Taxi" - 1970

Developers are out of control and have the support of the politicians who welcome the big money contributions that allow them to stay in office. Grass roots efforts and environmental groups just don't have the money to compete. The townships want the added tax base and revenues so they encourage the development. It's a sad state of affairs.

You beat me to the punch.Fortunately I live in northern Wisconsin where pouplation is low and tourism is high. I can deal with a rush of people on a seasonal basis. At least they are not calling my back yard home :beer: My sympathy to those of you who have to live where they are. By the way,did I forget to mention this is very ugly country, colder than all getout in the winter,bad food and the people are very unfriendly? I don't think most people would like it here. :beer:

[spiderlake]

What I don't get is that most of these McMansions are totally woodframe or maybe face brick on the front. Whatever happened to all-brick houses?

At least you guys have some brick facades on the east side - most McMansion's here are wrapped in vinyl. Nothing against vinyl (that's what we have too) but it just doesn't seem or look right on a 6000 square foot house.

[JohnS]

You beat me to the punch.Fortunately I live in northern Wisconsin where pouplation is low and tourism is high. I can deal with a rush of people on a seasonal basis. At least they are not calling my back yard home :beer: My sympathy to those of you who have to live where they are. By the way,did I forget to mention this is very ugly country, colder than all getout in the winter,bad food and the people are very unfriendly? I don't think most people would like it here. :beer:
I love Ashland. Where are you?

[Tom]

What I don't get is that most of these McMansions are totally woodframe or maybe face brick on the front. Whatever happened to all-brick houses?

The best part is that around here they appear to be 2x4 studs 24" on center. You'd think if you're paying all that money you'd get something that will stand up to a stiff breeze.

[JohnS]

The best part is that around here they appear to be 2x4 studs 24" on center. You'd think if you're paying all that money you'd get something that will stand up to a stiff breeze.No, that's why Home Depot and Lowes are so profitable. Houses don't last anymore. After 5-8 years, you have to start doing things to them.

[Kirk Pacenti]

The best part is that around here they appear to be 2x4 studs 24" on center. You'd think if you're paying all that money you'd get something that will stand up to a stiff breeze.

I think the new "standard" is actually 20" on center, this is crazy!

When we move, I am going to build my own home. We're looking into
"Zero Energy" building techniques for an all brick house.

[quattro]

Warwick, the question: Where is a person from that says; "oh my GAWD?"
How many points is this worth William?

[bcm119]

William-

Well the same thing is happening in Oregon but with a different twist. We do have houses being built but the rural forested areas continue to be logged. Sad to have roads with moss growing on them have their character changed so much by clear cutting whole hillsides. Sigh.

But it grows back to the way it was right? Wrong. It gets overrun by Scotch broom, an invasive species thats spreading like wildfire around here.

Oregon State has this "experimental forest" thats famous for its mountain bike trails. Its a great example of how harmful clearcutting is. The entire forest, except for the 2 acres of old growth, is a checkerboard of different failed logging practices. Its choked with various invasive weeds and grasses, or shaded by such dense young trees that the understory is dead or non existant. I don't know how many different "experiments" it takes to prove that clearcutting doesn't work.

As for the rest of this thread... "The American lifestyle is not negotiable"... so why bother complaining? ;)

[William]

But it grows back to the way it was right? Wrong. It gets overrun by Scotch broom, an invasive species thats spreading like wildfire around here.

Oregon State has this "experimental forest" thats famous for its mountain bike trails. Its a great example of how harmful clearcutting is. The entire forest, except for the 2 acres of old growth, is a checkerboard of different failed logging practices. Its choked with various invasive weeds and grasses, or shaded by such dense young trees that the understory is dead or non existant. I don't know how many different "experiments" it takes to prove that clearcutting doesn't work.

As for the rest of this thread... "The American lifestyle is not negotiable"... so why bother complaining? ;)

What is McDonald Dunn Forest.

Corvallis for $500 dollars Alex.


As part of the forestry program at OSU, I had a short stint working tracts in the area. The stupid practices and lumber industry bias led me to other avenues.


William

[Ozz]

Now add to the picture the Millions of illegal aliens invading the USA,
and project ahead 30 years.

The greater the population, the greater the use of currently undeveloped
land. Simple arithmetic.
Boy, I hear ya bro....just think how the Wampanoag's feel now. ;)

http://www.native-languages.org/wampanoag.htm

[William]

Just found out that a 22 acre piece of land nearby is being sold to developers. (as the story goes) Apparently the parents never wanted it developed, but now the kids have it and they want to get what they can for it so they sold it.
:crap:




William

[Blue Jays]

"...how ironic it is subdivisions are usually named for the thing they displaced or knocked down to build, like "Willow Run," or "Swallow Hollow." Well, there used to be willows and swallows, but they're all gone now..."Ya' stole my great post before I was able to make it! :D

[Blue Jays]

"The best part is that around here they appear to be 2x4 studs 24" on center. You'd think if you're paying all that money you'd get something that will stand up to a stiff breeze."I've often wondered what is the realistic expected lifespan of a standard home constructed during the past decade.
They literally "pop-up" overnight, so I can't expect that the craftsmanship is top-notch.

[thwart]

Higher gas prices equal:

1) Smaller cars

2) Fewer cars

3) Fewer outlying suburban developments, more renovation and re-use of existing structures

Not to mention much less important stuff... like less global warming, for instance.

So, as the folks meeting in the Twin Cities like to say---drill, drill, drill. :rolleyes:

[72gmc]

I can't expect that the craftsmanship is top-notch.

I'm not in the market for a new home, much less a McMansion, but I wonder the same thing and it's causing me to think I might look at a "modern" prefabricated panel construction if I ever do build new. Seems that those should be better constructed and more weather-worthy if pieced together competently... I'm idly researching whether that is the truth.

[BumbleBeeDave]

This has got to be the first time I've heard the problem of exurban sprawl tied to immigration policy. Maybe some of them are doing the landscaping...

. . . and illegals are indeed part of the mix. That's not prejudicial, it's just a fact because they are part of the population increase. They DO live somewhere--and in doing so contribute to the need for more housing. They may not be able to apply for mortgages for fear of deportation, but they take up rental housing that creates a demand for more housing in general. Additionally, when illegals have kids in this country the kids ARE American citizens because they are born here, and someday they will be buying houses. It's not just the American lifestyle, it's sheer numbers of people.

BBD

[giordana93]

. . . and illegals are indeed part of the mix. That's not prejudicial, it's just a fact because they are part of the population increase. They DO live somewhere--and in doing so contribute to the need for more housing. They may not be able to apply for mortgages for fear of deportation, but they take up rental housing that creates a demand for more housing in general. Additionally, when illegals have kids in this country the kids ARE American citizens because they are born here, and someday they will be buying houses. It's not just the American lifestyle, it's sheer numbers of people.

BBD
I absolutely do not buy that. That brown illegals are crowding whitey out into the suburbs? please. My latest experience has been in NE Ohio where there has been essentially zero population growth, but developers keep buying up farm land, slapping together crappy houses, that newly built (and un-needed) freeways make access easier to (state rep's gotta get in on the devveloper's action too and make sure highway dollars come to their districts). My wife works with guys who drive in from 60 miles away from friggin Cleveland to work in Cleveland, and they literally said they want to be able to get out of the car and pee in their back yard--or shoot--without their neighbors seeing them. It's this fantasy to have an English manor in the countryside. Makes me almost happy to see gas pushing $5 a gallon. sorry for the rant, but this hits close to home for me. And nobody is immigrating to Cleveland (well, we've got a sizeable population of Orthodox ???s still coming from Russia here on the East side..good grief, we can't write the word for Israelites?)
It's all driven by the almighty dollar and consumer-spending. The farmer makes money, the developers and builder make money, the road contractors make money, the "village" where development takes place will make more money in tax revenues, add landscapers, etc. That's way too much greed for common sense to stand a chance (while beautiful old homes, in NICE, not "urban" neighborhoods of Shaker Hts., Cleveland Hts, etc are on the market for cheap, easy access to all the amenities of city life .. blah blah) It's the american way: flee your neighbors, put up a fence, live as far away from where you work as possible. invest in new infrastructure instead of fixing the old and crumbling one: that's for those who CAN'T get out, because we all must get out of the city.

there was a book a few years ago called The Geography of Nowhere_ on this; not a perfect analysis by far, but it made the point.


as a humorous aside: there's an exclusive subdivision out here where all the streets are cute bird names and they named the subdivision "L'avion" which actually means "the plane." I'm assuming the idiots wanted to say "flight" (as in "I missed my plane-flight" and just chose the wrong translation). Cracks me up every time I go by there (nestled somewhere between Fox Hollow and and ** (add your own silly name that evokes wilderness). I also laugh when they complain about the deer eating their expensive landscaping: that's what happens when you move to the country, fool.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I absolutely do not buy that. That brown illegals are crowding whitey out into the suburbs? please.

The only point I was trying to make was that population pressure is a factor, no matter where that increasing population comes from. Davids's comment seemed to be implying that that part of the issue is a non-issue. I just disagree.

The issues you point out certainly do add to the mix--the expectations that Americans seem to have gotten into their heads about being entitled to some sort of country estate and the predicament with that expectation that increasing transportation costs have helped to create. Everybody wants more and bigger and newer and they want it right now--and they seem to feel it's their right as Americans to get it.

BBD

[giordana93]

a gross oversimplification.
yes, guilty as charged, and of course my statement was intentionally (but not mean-spiritied) rhetorical fireworks; it should not have been implied that I was drawing that kind of conclusion from your post, and I apologize for the over-simplification. It is sadly true, however, that this is the attitude around here. There is plenty of open space available in and around the city to re-develop, even though there is no housing shortage by any stretch of the imagination (just not as much money to be made from it). There simply is no population pressure here and in many places that are experiencing sprawl, and if anything there is even retraction-loss of population, but development of farm land continues. I'm just a bit sensitive to the issue of sprawl living here in the old rust belt, and maybe even more sensitive to scape-goating illegal immigration as the evil other and cause of this country's woes. sorry BBD.

[Ginger]

They bring what they're trying to escape.

Back in the 60's my parents were some of those "moving to the country" folks, but they bought a farm and grew it to 90 acres while farming a total of 500 acres and every one in the community knew each other and it was a hard life, but a good life. Then "newcomers" started coming out and ploping down their houses on 5-10 acre parcels that you can't do anything with anyhow other than sit on them and they'd buy three horses and have an overcrowding/overgrazing issue and their kids would get older and we started having stuff stolen out of the barn and off the farm and our animals were harrassed and fed all sorts of things. Evidently people thought that stuff on a farm was community property or a giant petting zoo and they could take things home if they wanted and it was ok to let their kids wander in the fields with bulls and cows in heat. Generally they never understood that farm animals aren't Disney extras or why their dogs "playing" by running the cattle was wrong and they never got why they were treated like outsiders when they looked down their noses at the people who lived on the farms as some sort of quaint entertainment that happened to live next door to them. Useful to get their cars pulled out of the ditch, but not to socialize with. They don't want neighbors. They wanted isolation. They wanted "country" lifestyle but they didn't want "community" the way the farm community is community and much of the "community" faded. Crime was more prevelant (not that people didn't steal things before, but in general... everyone knew who it was) Drugs became more prevalent in school and in general the farm community quality of life deteriorated.

So William, Sorry that your community is changing.
I don't know any answer.

But I do know that it is sad when things go that way.


Do you have any open space conservation groups in the area? (Like the Franklin Land trust that puts on the D2R2? Perhaps you could volunteer?_

[fiamme red]

Just up the hill from my parents' summer house, a developer bought up many acres of mostly forested land, and got permission from the town to put up thirty houses on it. Then he went broke, and all there is now is a vast empty space of bulldozed land. The developer didn't leave a single tree standing. It pains me when I ride past there.

[Ginger]

Oh look.

http://www.rilandtrust.org/

yes. They do!

[link]

I grew up in a "rural" area of Southern Maryland that was restricted by a federal scenic easment. It still is under the same easement restrictions today. Over the past 40 years everything around it has changed dramatically by way of development.

Its feeling today is analogous to the small house that was built on 20 acres and has been standing for 100 years but is now surrounded by sky scrapers. It looks weird and feels weird.

[William]

Oh look.

http://www.rilandtrust.org/

yes. They do!

I'm getting "address not found" from the link. But they are here so thanks for the heads up MA. :cool:



William

[MarleyMon]

lyrics by John Gorka:

They're growing houses in the fields between the towns
And the Starlight drive-in movie's closing down
The road is gone to the way it was before
And the spaces won't be spaces anymore

Two more farms were broken by the drought
First the Wagners now the Fullers pulling out
Developers paid better than the corn
But this was not the place where they were born

There's houses in the fields
No prayers for steady rain this year
Houses in the fields
There's houses in the fields
And the last few farms are growing out of here

At first he wouldn't sell and then he would
Now they'll be children playing where the silo stood
The word came from the marrow of his bones
It was the last sure way to pay off all the loans

The new streets will be named for kings and queens
And a ransom will be payed for every castle's dream
The model sign is crested with a lion
And the farmers they will have enough to die on

There's houses in the fields
No prayers for steady rain this year
Houses in the fields
There's houses in the fields
And the last few farms are growing out of here

I guess no one should be afraid of change
But tell me why is there a fence for every open range
It's a sign I'm getting on in years
When nothing new is welcome to these eyes and ears

There's houses in the fields
No prayers for steady rain this year
Houses in the fields
There's houses in the fields
And the last few farms are growing out of here

They're growing houses in the fields between the towns
And the Starlight drive-in movie's closing down
The road is gone to the way it was before
And the spaces won't be spaces anymore
And the spaces won't be spaces anymore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvjT-Ta29jw

[Bill Bove]

Wow, thanks for bringing John Gorka back. My sister and I used to go see him a lot when he was playing the 50 seat coffe house circuit around New England.