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View Full Version : Discs in the Pro Peloton in 2017?!


spartanKid
03-23-2015, 06:33 PM
http://road.cc/content/news/146616-disc-brakes-be-permitted-peloton-2017

Interesting. That seems awfully fast. I can't help but think the UCI is just caving to the commercial pressure of disc road bikes. :bike:

bcroslin
03-23-2015, 06:35 PM
Can't wait for the first pile-up with deli slicers in the peloton. It will look like one of the Saw movies.

FlashUNC
03-23-2015, 06:48 PM
Can't wait for the first pile-up with deli slicers in the peloton. It will look like one of the Saw movies.

Just like the Spinergy death wheels back in the day. But now way hotter.

bmeryman
03-23-2015, 06:50 PM
Just like the Spinergy death wheels back in the day. But now way hotter.

At least the wounds will be cauterized...

FlashUNC
03-23-2015, 06:51 PM
At least the wounds will be cauterized...

Just like Rambo: First Blood, minus the gun powder.

AJosiahK
03-23-2015, 06:53 PM
whoosh !

could be interesting

considering the (hopeful) increase of bike handling skills these guys should have by now, especially compared to back then, this could be crazy.

faster is the answer.

as for the big ol, 2017 might be too soon

saab2000
03-23-2015, 06:54 PM
They can have my toe clips and straps and my friction shifted 5-speed freewheels when they take them from my cold, dead hands.

Oh, and I wish cars would go back to bias ply tires and drum brakes. Or maybe just horse-drawn buggies would be better.

Oh forget it all, get rid of the wheel. Let's just walk.

oldpotatoe
03-23-2015, 07:06 PM
Just like the Spinergy death wheels back in the day. But now way hotter.

I can't wait for the first big decent when somebody boils off his fluid or the first who does a bike toss after getting a neutral wheel and going nuts hearing the rotor rub. Zick, zick, zick. Or maybe neutral wheel and QR? 10mm thru or 12mm thru or 15mm thru or.......?

Uncle Jam's Army
03-23-2015, 07:09 PM
This will not end well. . . . :eek:

Louis
03-23-2015, 07:22 PM
Let's just walk.

You can walk, but I'll be using my bike with 9-spd DT shifters.

FlashUNC
03-23-2015, 07:26 PM
They can have my toe clips and straps and my friction shifted 5-speed freewheels when they take them from my cold, dead hands.

Oh, and I wish cars would go back to bias ply tires and drum brakes. Or maybe just horse-drawn buggies would be better.

Oh forget it all, get rid of the wheel. Let's just walk.

My initial snark aside, I'm for the change in the long run, provided they figure out all the engineering bits. They do seem to bring up real safety concerns in pack racing that maybe don't exist in MTB and cross.

None of it is insurmountable and more options isn't a bad thing, provided the rim brake doesn't go the way of the dodo, but I suppose the market will determine that.

If obsolescence is coming, time to hoard my Mavic SSCs...

saab2000
03-23-2015, 07:31 PM
I think reality will speak here.

I don't know if discs will be better than rim brakes but I think they maybe will be. The details (through-axles and compatibility) will get sorted out. The proof will be in the pudding and there will be testers and late adapters.

Sean Kelly won Milan-Sanremo with toe clips and straps in 1992....

My own brief experience with discs tells me they are at least not inferior and could be superior. We'll see.

I'm inclined to think they're on the way and aren't going away and it's going to be because they're better, not because of marketing. Obviously, it's still relatively early in the timetable of disc tech for road bikes. In the world of mountain bikes the battle is long since been won.

oldpotatoe
03-23-2015, 07:33 PM
My initial snark aside, I'm for the change in the long run, provided they figure out all the engineering bits. They do seem to bring up real safety concerns in pack racing that maybe don't exist in MTB and cross.

None of it is insurmountable and more options isn't a bad thing, provided the rim brake doesn't go the way of the dodo, but I suppose the market will determine that.

If obsolescence is coming, time to hoard my Mavic SSCs...

Like tubeless, another MTB 'thing'(that's perfect for wet/mud) they will 'adapt' for road racing that will find itself on 'enthusiasts' bikes for their WE dry weather 30 miler.

saab2000
03-23-2015, 07:41 PM
Like tubeless, another MTB 'thing'(that's perfect for wet/mud) they will 'adapt' for road racing that will find itself on 'enthusiasts' bikes for their WE dry weather 30 miler.

You might be right, but I'm thinking discs are for real. I have them on my gravel road bike and they don't suck and I use TRP Spyres, cable-actuated brakes. They're more powerful than my rim brakes and modulate at least as well, or better, and cable-actuated brakes are low-end..... I think discs are coming, like they have for cars and motorcycles..... It's only natural.

I'm reluctant to abandon what has always worked, but if something works better I'm open minded. And I think the discs may work better. Not sure, but I will remain open minded. My experience is very limited, but it was not a bad experience and it was on my own disc bike.

rzthomas
03-23-2015, 07:57 PM
There's always so much hyperbole when it comes to this topic.

Louis
03-23-2015, 08:08 PM
There's always so much hyperbole when it comes to this topic.

Luddite!

http://spartacus-educational.com/PRluddites1.JPG

http://ludditelink.org.uk/images/interface/frameBreakingNoticeReward.jpg

https://wyascatablogue.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/luddite-booklet-cover.jpg

oldpotatoe
03-23-2015, 08:14 PM
You might be right, but I'm thinking discs are for real. I have them on my gravel road bike and they don't suck and I use TRP Spyres, cable-actuated brakes. They're more powerful than my rim brakes and modulate at least as well, or better, and cable-actuated brakes are low-end..... I think discs are coming, like they have for cars and motorcycles..... It's only natural.

I'm reluctant to abandon what has always worked, but if something works better I'm open minded. And I think the discs may work better. Not sure, but I will remain open minded. My experience is very limited, but it was not a bad experience and it was on my own disc bike.

Drum brakes on cars and mototcycles didn't work worth a dam(far heavier vehicle going lots faster). Calipers work very well, can easily lock wheels, are light and cheap. Are they coming, yup, for good or ill. Heavier, more expensive, harder to work on, but yup, gonna happen. But like tubeless, in spite of some 'experts' saying the tubed road tire will be gone!!(said over a decade ago), still around. Gonna have to see heavier forks, frames, 135mm spaced frames, blah...but yup gonna happen.

saab2000
03-23-2015, 08:20 PM
Drum brakes on cars and mototcycles didn't work worth a dam(far heavier vehicle going lots faster). Calipers work very well, can easily lock wheels, are light and cheap. Are they coming, yup, for good or ill. Heavier, more expensive, harder to work on, but yup, gonna happen. But like tubeless, in spite of some 'experts' saying the tubed road tire will be gone!!(said over a decade ago), still around. Gonna have to see heavier forks, frames, 135mm spaced frames, blah...but yup gonna happen.

I can lock my Campagnolo Delta brakes.... That doesn't make them better. It's all about modulation my friend. And modulation and power are two vastly different animals.

I'm OK with 135.... My IF Gravel Royale (in the Gravel Road thread) has 135. It doesn't have through axles but is heavy. That'll be solved.

Look, I'd be OK if cycling evolution had stopped in 1987 but it didn't so we have to move forward.

FWIW, I still mostly ride tubulars and think they're better, in spite of the 1930s technology. So we have that in common. And tubulars will benefit from disc brakes. No rim temp issues.

Don't fear the future. It's not all bad.

shovelhd
03-23-2015, 08:31 PM
They're already showing up at the local crits.

bcroslin
03-23-2015, 09:12 PM
Don't get me wrong, you can have my mtb discs when you pry them from my cold dead hands and I even see the sense behind disc CX bikes but on a road bike? Maybe it makes sense for fast road descents but discs for the majority of road bikes is a head scratcher. It's a solution in search of a problem. But that's how bike manufacturers sell bikes so more power to them I guess.

BumbleBeeDave
03-23-2015, 09:26 PM
. . . but I'd be happy to test the concept for them on that DeRosa. 56cm, please!

BBD

http://road.cc/sites/default/files/imagecache/preview_500/images/Eurobike%202014:%20Disc%20road%20bike%20highlights/De%20Rosa%20Idol%20Disc%202.jpg

pdmtong
03-23-2015, 10:54 PM
I can lock my Campagnolo Delta brakes.... That doesn't make them better. It's all about modulation my friend. And modulation and power are two vastly different animals.

I'm OK with 135.... My IF Gravel Royale (in the Gravel Road thread) has 135. It doesn't have through axles but is heavy. That'll be solved.

Look, I'd be OK if cycling evolution had stopped in 1987 but it didn't so we have to move forward.

FWIW, I still mostly ride tubulars and think they're better, in spite of the 1930s technology. So we have that in common. And tubulars will benefit from disc brakes. No rim temp issues.

Don't fear the future. It's not all bad.

As noted disc adoption by the peloton will drive weight reduction. What's not to like?

The other thing that discs provide besides modulation is a reduction in sustained hand strength. Managing descending speed over multiple or long twist steep descents can be tiring. My daughters small hands require us to pause a few times coming down the hill. Just as mtb hydro discs made riding single track easier for her I can see road hydro (and Di2) being must haves for her

Russian bear
03-23-2015, 11:08 PM
Give me hydro, direct mount rim brakes. Most importantly, hydro levers that look sexy.

avalonracing
03-23-2015, 11:11 PM
Stuff like this happens not because it is necessarily an advancement but it allows both bike manufacturers AND component makers to sell new product.
If they didn't convince people that they need things like this we'd all be happy on the perfectly good bikes with the great groups and wheels that we have gotten in the last decade.

(I'm still quite happy with my D/A 7800 equipped, aluminum and titanium bikes with standard geometry).

pdmtong
03-24-2015, 12:16 AM
Stuff like this happens not because it is necessarily an advancement but it allows both bike manufacturers AND component makers to sell new product.
If they didn't convince people that they need things like this we'd all be happy on the perfectly good bikes with the great groups and wheels that we have gotten in the last decade.

(I'm still quite happy with my D/A 7800 equipped, aluminum and titanium bikes with standard geometry).

in the opinion of many, a ti frame with 7800 is pretty hard to beat.

I am not ready to declare road disc a universal advancement for all of road cycling. but, it certainly has a place in particular applications

EricEstlund
03-24-2015, 01:06 AM
I'm still a huge fan of good rim brakes, but BB7 road brakes were out in what, 99'? It's not been an overnight decision.

edukaycheon
03-24-2015, 01:23 AM
Let's not forget that we'll probably see some improvements in discs for road bikes up to and beyond 2017, probably lower profile, better modulation, maybe even rounded to be less dangerous? Chances are a lot of naysayers will start humming a different tune once the current state of discs changes

oldpotatoe
03-24-2015, 05:47 AM
I can lock my Campagnolo Delta brakes.... That doesn't make them better. It's all about modulation my friend. And modulation and power are two vastly different animals.

I'm OK with 135.... My IF Gravel Royale (in the Gravel Road thread) has 135. It doesn't have through axles but is heavy. That'll be solved.

Look, I'd be OK if cycling evolution had stopped in 1987 but it didn't so we have to move forward.

FWIW, I still mostly ride tubulars and think they're better, in spite of the 1930s technology. So we have that in common. And tubulars will benefit from disc brakes. No rim temp issues.

Don't fear the future. It's not all bad.

Modulation on well made calipers is tremendous, my friend.
Power, that is, the very high power of discs, with a small tire patch IS an issue.
Heat is too, not with tubulars but the constant braking on wet discs..there will be brake fade to zero.

Move forward, absolutely but adopting a 'technology' designed for wet, sloppy conditions(MTB) or where chances of wacking a rim is high(MTB) and stuffing it into a light, enthusiasts road machine ridden on 95% dry days...but so what. Don't have to-
-sell em
-work on em
-use em.

You mentioned 1987..those days that saw real innovation, yes adopted from MTB..lever mounted click shifting. along with clipless pedals( adopted from skiing-thanks LOOK)....

Whenever wet discs enter the pro peloton..gonna be interesting and a real comedy central episode. And yes, it'll happen, for good or ill.

laupsi
03-24-2015, 07:08 AM
going to disk wheels is going to put a huge damper on my budget given all the rim braked wheels I currently own. that is if I decide to make the switch. I will be inclined if our local race peloton chooses to go disk however. wouldn't want to be racing on standard brakes if everyone else goes to the more efficient disk type.

engineering wise, disk braking is a much better way to slow/stop and not just in the rain. tweaks will need to made to hone in all related issues but once this occurs it will be adopted and padded rubber brakes will be a thing of the distant past.

of the hundreds of crashes I've seen over the years I've rarely seen serious injury due to chain rings chewing up flesh. doubt the disks will be any more hazardous, hot or not.

KonaSS
03-24-2015, 07:37 AM
It really is silly fretting about it. Not saying there are not issues to work out, but this has already played out twice.

Go back to some mtb internet forum about 15 years ago and you will see the same arguments (heavier and I can lock up my v-brakes just fine).

Go back to a cyclocross forum as soon as 6-12 months ago and you will see it. Those arguments got much quieter after the World Championships were won on discs...

And now we can focus on road bikes for the next couple years:confused:

Anyway, I am not in favor of new just for the sake of new either, but sometimes it IS better, even if it means your current equipment is obsolete. Case in point (also brought up i n this thread) for those who worship Dura Ace 7800. I have a group too and really like it. But I just installed 11 speed 105 on my cross bike and WOW. Anyone who wants to trade their 5800 105 parts for my 7800 Dura Ace, let me know.

echelon_john
03-24-2015, 07:43 AM
Problem solved. Next!

tumbler
03-24-2015, 07:58 AM
I'm perfectly fine with this. Not because I plan on switching to discs, but because I'm hoping everyone else will and then I can pick up lots of nice 11 speed wheels on the cheap, like those on 10s are doing now.

JonB
03-24-2015, 08:25 AM
Just like the Spinergy death wheels back in the day. But now way hotter.

The Spinergy wheels quickly disappeared after nearly slicing off Michele Bartoli's kneecap in a crash during the '99 Tour of Germany

Mark McM
03-24-2015, 10:25 AM
The Spinergy wheels quickly disappeared after nearly slicing off Michele Bartoli's kneecap in a crash during the '99 Tour of Germany

That's because the UCI quickly made up new rules specifically to exclude Spinergy wheels (the infamous "impact test" - this test didn't specify a minimum wheel strength, it tested the number of pieces the wheel broke into, regardless of how unrealistically high the force required to actually break it was).

oldpotatoe
03-24-2015, 11:11 AM
That's because the UCI quickly made up new rules specifically to exclude Spinergy wheels (the infamous "impact test" - this test didn't specify a minimum wheel strength, it tested the number of pieces the wheel broke into, regardless of how unrealistically high the force required to actually break it was).

Not enough bribe money to the right people at the UCI. Same for Cinelli and Spinacchi. I'm sure are changing hands right now.

pdmtong
03-24-2015, 01:08 PM
Modulation on well made calipers is tremendous, my friend.
Power, that is, the very high power of discs, with a small tire patch IS an issue.
Heat is too, not with tubulars but the constant braking on wet discs..there will be brake fade to zero.

Move forward, absolutely but adopting a 'technology' designed for wet, sloppy conditions(MTB) or where chances of wacking a rim is high(MTB) and stuffing it into a light, enthusiasts road machine ridden on 95% dry days...but so what. Don't have to-
-sell em
-work on em
-use em.

You mentioned 1987..those days that saw real innovation, yes adopted from MTB..lever mounted click shifting. along with clipless pedals( adopted from skiing-thanks LOOK)....

Whenever wet discs enter the pro peloton..gonna be interesting and a real comedy central episode. And yes, it'll happen, for good or ill.

The Bold (mine) isnt quite accurate. Of course discs trump in the wet but discs also shine in the dry because you can carry way more speed into a tricky section, and quickly adjust/change your line easily with a single finger. Significantly more control leads to much safer riding.

Road bikes dont need to deal with steep rocked out sections with abrupt line changes, so this element of disc application does not (IMHO) translate from mtb to pavement.

I agree with the power-to-patch ratio comment.

oldpotatoe
03-24-2015, 02:01 PM
The Bold (mine) isnt quite accurate. Of course discs trump in the wet but discs also shine in the dry because you can carry way more speed into a tricky section, and quickly adjust/change your line easily with a single finger. Significantly more control leads to much safer riding.

Road bikes dont need to deal with steep rocked out sections with abrupt line changes, so this element of disc application does not (IMHO) translate from mtb to pavement.

I agree with the power-to-patch ratio comment.
N

Like i said, it's going to happen but you description of 'way more', 'adjust easily', 'much safer' 'might' be a bit embellished except for very experienced riders. Marketing speaks to 'enthusiasts'.

What road discs will have to deal with is long decents with brakes being used way longer, at much higher speeds, with smaller(lighter) calipers, with enclosed reservoirs, where heat is going to be a big issue. Ask tandem riders with wet disc brakes.

It'll happen. For good or ill. Good gor bike shops who do a lot of service.

pdmtong
03-24-2015, 02:27 PM
N

Like i said, it's going to happen but you description of 'way more', 'adjust easily', 'much safer' 'might' be a bit embellished except for very experienced riders. Marketing speaks to 'enthusiasts'.

What road discs will have to deal with is long decents with brakes being used way longer, at much higher speeds, with smaller(lighter) calipers, with enclosed reservoirs, where heat is going to be a big issue. Ask tandem riders with wet disc brakes.

It'll happen. For good or ill. Good gor bike shops who do a lot of service.

we are on the same page wrt to road - my comments about way more/safer etc. were in regard to mtb, that is discs are all about more than just wet/sloppy.

Pastashop
03-24-2015, 03:15 PM
Seems like the runout on the rotor of a disc brake system can be much smaller than on a rim, being rigidly mounted to a hub. So, pad movement can be reduced a lot relative to a rim brake. Consequently, one can build in more mechanical advantage into the system (more stopping power, provided the tires don't skid*). The narrow gap between pad and rotor surfaces also helps exclude junk (mud) from that space better than with rim brakes.

To maintain these advantages without parasitic rubbing, the hub she'll and axle have to be more rigid than before. This requires larger dimensions than before, which carries a weight penalty. Same for beefing up the forks / stays. With steel, this weight penalty is potentially large. With carbon, the weight penalty is minimal.

So, I think that what we are seeing is a system level effect, where other advances (carbon frames, larger diameter axles and hubs), tighter manufacturing tolerances, are enabling / helping the switch to discs.

*Also, the rotor and pads can -- and should -- be made out of a harder material, so the friction coefficient can be increased. Again, more stopping power in principle.

That they (calipers and rotors) get hot is good in wet conditions (can boil off water film between surfaces), but on long and fast descents in the pro ROAD races in the Pyrenees, etc., that can lead to fade in a hurry. This is potentially an even bigger issue for hydraulic type brakes, but cable type are susceptible, too. The air speed isn't what it is in motorcycle or car usage, so forced air cooling is less effective. Al-based spiders are helpful. As for MTB vs. Road, MTB descents can be steep and fast, but road applications are often faster and more taxing for a number of reasons.

ultraman6970
03-24-2015, 04:16 PM
Imagine the yellow jersey with a flat in the rear wheel and the mavic moto w/o any disc wheel in the rack... or that the disc hub is off for 2 mm and takes like 5 minutes to figure it out what is wrong and wait for the right wheel from the team.

The problem is that the manufacturers are going to force the pro peloton to use them...

Stephen2014
03-24-2015, 04:36 PM
My choice would be hub brakes, and that's from the experience of owning plenty of wheels fitted with them. As for descents remember big heavy tandems often have a downhill brake which is a hub brake.

personicus
03-24-2015, 05:34 PM
I think Penta hits the nail on the head-- I think road discs aren't a mature enough product for the peloton. Though, this "torture testing" will drive a lot of innovation very quickly for us consumers.

personicus
03-24-2015, 06:06 PM
pastashop**

bluesea
03-24-2015, 08:49 PM
Imagine the yellow jersey with a flat in the rear wheel and the mavic moto w/o any disc wheel in the rack... or that the disc hub is off for 2 mm and takes like 5 minutes to figure it out what is wrong and wait for the right wheel from the team.

The problem is that the manufacturers are going to force the pro peloton to use them...


I can imagine one or more moto delegated specifically to slow down the tete de la course, in the event a contender has a flat. the specific details of such a rule would require another thread. ;)

Vientomas
03-24-2015, 10:24 PM
Imagine the yellow jersey with a flat in the rear wheel and the mavic moto w/o any disc wheel in the rack... or that the disc hub is off for 2 mm and takes like 5 minutes to figure it out what is wrong and wait for the right wheel from the team.

The problem is that the manufacturers are going to force the pro peloton to use them...

Or...someone accidentally squeezes the brake lever when the wheel is off and the pads close up. Oops! I'll admit I have done than to my mountain bike.

Mark McM
03-25-2015, 09:34 AM
Seems like the runout on the rotor of a disc brake system can be much smaller than on a rim, being rigidly mounted to a hub. So, pad movement can be reduced a lot relative to a rim brake. Consequently, one can build in more mechanical advantage into the system (more stopping power, provided the tires don't skid*).

That's mostly true. But on other hand, because of the smaller diameter of the disc vs. the rim the disc caliper also needs higher mechanical advantage to generate the same stopping force. For example, a 160 mm rotor is 1/4 the diameter of a 700c wheel, so the mechanical advantage of the disc caliper must 4 times as high as a rim brake for the same stopping force; this in turn means that disc will have 1/4 the pad/disc clearance as compared to the pad/rim clearance of the rim brake. It is easy to manufacturer a very flat rotor plate, so tighter runout tolerance is no big deal, but there is one big caveat: The tolerance on disc offset between different wheels will be much tighter. With rim brakes, wheels can vary in rim offset by several millimeters and still be interchangeable. But with disc brakes, a disc offset variation of even 1 mm might cause rotor rubbing.

To maintain these advantages without parasitic rubbing, the hub she'll and axle have to be more rigid than before.

This doesn't necessarily follow. Because the disc is smaller in diameter, the same flex of the axle/hub produces proportionately smaller movement of the disc (which should be proportionate to to the smaller pad clearances).

personicus
03-25-2015, 09:52 AM
These peloton pile ups are going to be vicious thoigh


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