Question for professional framebuilders

[Scooper]

Roughly how many framesets can an experienced and talented full time builder turn out in a year while maintaining high quality? This would be for a one person shop who doesn't have to worry about marketing; assume for the sake of argument that the frames will sell as fast as he/she can make them.

Would one frameset a day with a five day work week (five framesets a week, so 5 x 52 = 260) be reasonable? How about 300?

[RedRider]

1- How much time are you allowing for customer interaction?
2- Are these stock geometry or custom?
3- Is the framebuilder butting, swagging or bending the tubes?
4- Who is painting or finishing them?
5- How much time are you allowing for admin?
6- How long is a piece of string?

[Scooper]

1- How much time are you allowing for customer interaction?
2- Are these stock geometry or custom?
3- Is the framebuilder butting, swagging or bending the tubes?
4- Who is painting or finishing them?
5- How much time are you allowing for admin?
6- How long is a piece of string?

1- Assume zero interaction with the customer; the entity contracting you to build the frames does all the marketing and customer interface.
2- Stock geometry, building a group of five or ten frames of the same size and geometry at a time.
3- The tubing is butted by the tubing supplier, but the framebuilder is cutting and mitering the tubes, bending the fork blades and dimpling the chainstays when required for chainring and tire clearance.
4- The frame cleanup after brazing is done by the framebuilder, but painting and finishing is done by others.
5- Essentially no administrative costs. Price per unit is agreed upon and contracted with the one customer who is buying all the production.
6- You've got me. :)

[eddief]

I guess someone's got to do it. Here's what came to mind for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANXGJe6i3G8

[fuzzalow]

I'll take a SWAG at this for fun. Anywhere from 520 to 1,300 frames per 5 day workweek by one 52 week man year. Bare frames only - no paint; detail finish work is very time consuming.

At the margin, it will swing by a frame or two per day because it gets at the motivation and incentive for wanting to drive the pace that high for that long and for what kind of payoff. A year straight is very, very demanding.

I'd guess from 2 to 5 framesets averaged per day with 2 fairly comfortable and 5 as very intense. Also slightly faster for TIG'd construction versus lugged although most modern investment cast lugs should be fairly clean. None of these frames made as start-to-finish complete single frames but as batches of identical spec frames. Multiples of prebuilt sub-assemblies from preassembled batches to make large lots of single sized & spec'd frames.

I base this on the SWAG of the time consumed in the setup process in cutting & completing the miters and setting up & loading the brazing jig. All which has to be done only once per size and spec of frame if the production process is organized for speed and quantity.

[RedRider]

delete

[RedRider]

1- Assume zero interaction with the customer; the entity contracting you to build the frames does all the marketing and customer interface.
2- Stock geometry, building a group of five or ten frames of the same size and geometry at a time.
3- The tubing is butted by the tubing supplier, but the framebuilder is cutting and mitering the tubes, bending the fork blades and dimpling the chainstays when required for chainring and tire clearance.
4- The frame cleanup after brazing is done by the framebuilder, but painting and finishing is done by others.
5- Essentially no administrative costs. Price per unit is agreed upon and contracted with the one customer who is buying all the production.
6- You've got me. :)

You are describing a good welder rather than an experienced, talented framebuilder...

[Scooper]

You are describing a good welder rather than an experienced, talented framebuilder...

Well, in this case we're talking about lugged brazed frames, but I get your point. There's still skill and experience required even though we're not talking about custom geometry frames with individual tubes selected for the rider's weight, power, and riding style.

[Scooper]

Here's the reason for the question.

Dave Moulton is a highly respected retired framebuilder who began building Moulton custom frames in the U.K. in 1974, moved to the U.S. in 1979 and began building Masis in California, then Moulton customs in California while working at Masi, then in 1983 built frames for John Howard for one year, and the Fuso frames between 1984 and 1993, and finally some frames for Kent and Kyle Radford labeled Recherché beginning in 1985.

In his blog about the 1983 John Howard frames (http://www.davemoultonregistry.com/johnhoward.html), Dave says he built 20 to 25 frames a month for a year, with somewhere over 300 John Howard frames built.

I don't doubt he had a pretty nice shop with high end fixtures, milling machine, surface table, etc., for efficient production and I don't doubt his numbers. I was simply wondering what kind of hours he was putting in to make 300 frames in a year.

[Scooper]

I'll take a SWAG at this for fun. Anywhere from 520 to 1,300 frames per 5 day workweek by one 52 week man year. Bare frames only - no paint; detail finish work is very time consuming.

At the margin, it will swing by a frame or two per day because it gets at the motivation and incentive for wanting to drive the pace that high for that long and for what kind of payoff. A year straight is very, very demanding.

I'd guess from 2 to 5 framesets averaged per day with 2 fairly comfortable and 5 as very intense. Also slightly faster for TIG'd construction versus lugged although most modern investment cast lugs should be fairly clean. None of these frames made as start-to-finish complete single frames but as batches of identical spec frames. Multiples of prebuilt sub-assemblies from preassembled batches to make large lots of single sized & spec'd frames.

I base this on the SWAG of the time consumed in the setup process in cutting & completing the miters and setting up & loading the brazing jig. All which has to be done only once per size and spec of frame if the production process is organized for speed and quantity.

I think your SWAG is pretty reasonable. Thanks for the sanity check. :)

[Scooper]

I guess someone's got to do it. Here's what came to mind for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANXGJe6i3G8

Yep; I first saw Modern Times around 1970, and was completely exhausted when I walked out of the theater.

[weaponsgrade]

When I got my Della Santa, Roland mentioned having built about 36 frames the year before.

[Mayhem]

My question would be how much profit there would be per frame, generally speaking of course. I'm retired and have considered taking the class at Brew just to have something cool to do. If I were to do it I would want to sell reasonably priced frames, not $4000 jobs out of the reach of the average cyclist. Something more along the lines of Mercian frames.

[Ralph]

From taking tubes from the box, setting up equipment, cutting and mittering, welding, etc, no forks, I figure 1-2 per week would be good production as a retirement job. Not including decals and painting, installing head sets, chasing threads, facing BB's, packing for shipment, etc. There is a lot more to producing and selling a straight frame than you might think. Painting, frame prep, doing it yourself, or sending out to someone, is very time consuming. Expensive also.

I have a frame builder in the family, who does this along with a full time job, who has good quipment, and I'm amazed at what all is involved that most don't realize.

[guido]

Seven Cycles has a posting for a production framebuilder where the expectation is 6 frames a day. I'm sure they have someone else doing cutting/mitering and finishing but...

[Kirk Pacenti]

Seven Cycles has a posting for a production framebuilder where the expectation is 6 frames a day. I'm sure they have someone else doing cutting/mitering and finishing but...

Their definition of "framebuilder" is a little different. At Seven (iirc) the framebuilder does everything but the welding. Cut, form, miter, fit (maybe tack?) the tubes, and then hands off to the welder. Assuming this is the case, 6 sounds about right to me.

Fwiw, at Bontrager we had a team of guys building sub-assemblies. BB/ST, CS, wishbone, maintubes, etc. All came mitered, with all the braze-ons, and weldments already attached. The sub-assemblies were pre-aligned and culminated at my tacking fixture. Doing it this way, I was able to "build" on average, 15-18 frames a day. My record was 22.

Note the five boxes of tubing at my feet. Each contained all the tubes and sub-assemblies needed for a given run of bikes.

Cheers,
KP

[Ralph]

I am retired....not looking for a job.....but if I was interested in producing frames......I know how I would TRY to do it....as a one man shop. Don't know if possible or not.

If I had to learn all the skills required, plus purchase the equipment, I would just start with a frame material that didn't need painting. Ti for example, and just sell them in raw finish. Learn the kind of cutters and equipment and welding/brazing skills and equipment necessary to start with. Avoid the painting.....all the prep work, the expensive paint, hazzardous solvent materials, local paint booth permits (impossible to get in some areas), etc.

I wouldn't do forks at all.

[Mayhem]

From taking tubes from the box, setting up equipment, cutting and mittering, welding, etc, no forks, I figure 1-2 per week would be good production as a retirement job. Not including decals and painting, installing head sets, chasing threads, facing BB's, packing for shipment, etc. There is a lot more to producing and selling a straight frame than you might think. Painting, frame prep, doing it yourself, or sending out to someone, is very time consuming. Expensive also.

I have a frame builder in the family, who does this along with a full time job, who has good quipment, and I'm amazed at what all is involved that most don't realize.

I have no doubt there's a lot of work. But I have a nice pension and I've spent the last year in the country riding my bike everyday, babysitting my grandson a couple of times a week and.... that's it. It's been a nice vacation and if I'm going to work again I want to be my own boss and work at home doing something cool. So framebuilding has been something I've been toying with for a couple of decades, actually. Taking the frame building course, buying equipment, all start up costs will be a few pennies, so I'm curious what kind of profit would be realistically attainable if I were to do, say, 2 frames a week max. Would it take years to make my investment back, a few months, or what. Assuming I made frames worthy to sell haha

[Ralph]

Assuming your first frames were saleable....a big assumption.....and a shop with everything you need to get started (if you already have building).....you can get carried away here.....maybe $5000 to start depending on what you pay for your (used) mill, you might get your investment back in a year or so. But your first frames will/might be giva-a- ways, and your production will be slow to ramp up, and your sales prices might be lower than you expect to get going. If you can get it going, I can see how it would be rewarding for you. You seem to have the interest. Those are just numbers off the top of my head....guessing for a one man shop.....not a high production multi person shop.

[witcombusa]

I'll take a SWAG at this for fun. Anywhere from 520 to 1,300 frames per 5 day workweek by one 52 week man year. Bare frames only - no paint; detail finish work is very time consuming.

At the margin, it will swing by a frame or two per day because it gets at the motivation and incentive for wanting to drive the pace that high for that long and for what kind of payoff. A year straight is very, very demanding.

I'd guess from 2 to 5 framesets averaged per day with 2 fairly comfortable and 5 as very intense. Also slightly faster for TIG'd construction versus lugged although most modern investment cast lugs should be fairly clean. None of these frames made as start-to-finish complete single frames but as batches of identical spec frames. Multiples of prebuilt sub-assemblies from preassembled batches to make large lots of single sized & spec'd frames.

I base this on the SWAG of the time consumed in the setup process in cutting & completing the miters and setting up & loading the brazing jig. All which has to be done only once per size and spec of frame if the production process is organized for speed and quantity.

'no detail work'? no fork? :confused:
this is not what I would call a framebuilder.

I'd say 1 to 2 frames per week and even that might be optimistic. sizing, tube selection, custom details, etc. with a framebuilder you are paying for their experience even more than the torch hand.

OP, you might as well put a robot to work tig welding generic three size frames together. not a 'framebuilder' but a frame assembler.

[jmoore]

Assuming I made frames worthy to sell haha

I think this would be the biggest hurdle to overcome. Anyone can setup a shop and learn to build something if they have enough money. Getting paying customers in is a whole other story.

[Ti Designs]

Seven Cycles has a posting for a production framebuilder where the expectation is 6 frames a day.

All while wearing a 20 year old 7-up tee shirt. (From the "make 7-up yours" add, which says "Make 7" on the front and "up yours" on the back)

[guido]

I thought that was a perk not a requirement...
All while wearing a 20 year old 7-up tee shirt. (From the "make 7-up yours" add, which says "Make 7" on the front and "up yours" on the back)

[Doug Fattic]

I’m one of the few professional framebuilders that routinely hang out on Paceline although my post numbers are modest. Your question is a bit broad because there are so many different ways to make a frame and so many different standards of quality each builder chooses. I’m going to stick with lugged frames and not tig welded ones which is much faster. I went over to apprentice in Europe almost exactly 40 years ago. Before I was there and while I was there and afterwards too I visited many builders and often asked them how long it took them to build a frame. It must be understood that in the UK after WWII most laborers made much less money than Americans. My 1974 high school teacher’s salary earned me somewhere over $8,000 a year and I was much better off than anyone I hung around in England. This meant frames needed to be made fast and cheap and sold for around $100+ a frame. Harry Quinn in Liverpool told me he made on average 2 frames a day. Bob Jackson had 6 young guys (around 20 years old or younger) and they managed to turn out a frame a day per worker. This was a typical time most UK builders did. Where I was at Ellis Briggs, they did not depend on frame revenue and we took around a week to make each frame. Everything was more carefully made (and I might add with much nicer equipment) and all the joints were carefully filed. All frames are not created anywhere near equal.

In the US (where we have a higher standard) the pro lugged or fillet brazed builders take on average 15 to 25 hours per frame not including painting. A french style of rando bicycle can take much longer when racks and wiring and special features start to really add up. I am very particular about filing and take at least 40 hours and often over 100 hours for a frame I make with thinned lugs and maybe some special cutouts. There is a big difference in time making a true custom frame with every particular to fit a specific person instead of adjusting a standard frames design to someone with top and seat tubes lengths. Back in the 80’s I tried to see how fast it would take me to make a decent lugged frame and I did it in 7 hours. It is very easy for me to make a tig welded frame in a day or less. I would estimate that the average non-big-name American lugged builder actually makes something like 12 frames a year. Annual output is greatly influenced by whether they are the painter or not.

Another data point comes from my framebuilding classes. This is really my primary day job for the last 10 years although I have been doing them since 1976. I do painting and building to fill in the cracks. My goal for every student is to leave class with a professional quality custom frame similar to what a pro can do in 25 hours or less (we are talking about the pro making a frame in 25 hours not the student). Almost everybody does unless they completely lack talent (in which case Herbie Helm or I will make up some of the difference). The 3 week class goes for 17 days with actual class time being around 135 hours. They also work in the evenings after supper so an average student spends 170 hours (and sometimes a lot more) making his frame. This includes a lot of instruction and demonstrations as well as doing practice brazing for each joint. One of the big differences between the rookie and the pro is how long it takes them to do something. I figure I am about 3 times faster doing almost anything than a student. Just to be clear a rookie can often make as nice a frame as a pro but takes 3 or 4 times as long to do it. That assumes they are taught right. I get a lot of students that have taken framebuilding classes previously from somewhere else and lets just say again not everything is equal.

I probably get the most serious students that wants to make frames in some way in the future – the ones that do the most research before they pick a school because I don’t even have a website. That keeps out the tire kickers and it helps that I am a real teacher with teaching degrees and certifications. About 20% of my students eventually hang out their shingle. Some find out they don’t have either the ability or sustainable interest. Others that the cost of setup is beyond what they can do. And still others can’t find shop space anywhere. And some just don’t have the energy to make real their dreams.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[David Kirk]

I think there is no one answer to this question. It so greatly depends on the type of construction and material used.

I've seen skilled tig guys put a frame (no fork) together in as little as 7 hours and have it ready to paint. On the other hand I know lugged guys who do very ornate work with lot's of intricate detail that will spend over 100 hours on a frameset.

The other hard thing to figure in is the rest of the business that needs doing. I know the original question said to set that aside but really very, very few can set it aside and just build as they are one man shops and someone needs to return emails, order parts, pack bikes and run to UPS, put out the garbage, design the bikes.........etc. There was a time during my stay at Serotta where all I did was grab an order off the top of the pile and build it start to finish on my own (aside from pre-finish sandblasting - 15 minutes) and I built on average 3 lugged framesets per week. Figure about 12 hours per frame and fork with the rest of the time spent in meetings, helping the other guys if needed, cleaning up....etc. This was very much a full time job and I worked efficiently and fast and had the luxury of a full on production shop and tools at my disposal that those three bikes a week I was building would never be able to justify.

Frankly.......for almost every builder I can think of the limit to production isn't production itself - it's sales. Sell nothing, build nothing. Selling is always the constraint. The idea that anyone can hang out there shingle and plan on building 2 bikes a week is fun but very naive. You need to sell two bikes a week first unless you want to give them away.

I hope that sheds just a bit of light on the subject.

dave

P.S. - Doug said it above before I hit the 'post' button.

[Pastashop]

I'm not a professional builder, but this might be an interesting angle to consider:

http://www.oswaldcycleworks.com/

Tom Oswald builds custom frames by hand, without the use of any power tools, which some others do, too... That could cut down the overhead, but would increase the time to finish. But in the beginning, when sales are the primary the bottleneck, assuming the skills are there, this would make sense. At any rate, my ex long ago had a bike built by Oswald and liked it very much.

[fuzzalow]

'no detail work'? no fork? :confused:
this is not what I would call a framebuilder.
"no detail work" is found in the semi-coloned sentence that talks about the number of frames being produced by my estimate as delivered unpainted. if more time needs to be spent painting frames then the production estimate gets reduced.

No, my SWAG included forks. If I meant no forks I woulda wrote "No Forks"!

I'd say 1 to 2 frames per week and even that might be optimistic. sizing, tube selection, custom details, etc. with a framebuilder you are paying for their experience even more than the torch hand.

OP, you might as well put a robot to work tig welding generic three size frames together. not a 'framebuilder' but a frame assembler.
Hey, I just answered the question as the OP posed it and adhered to the conditions of his hypothetical. He's the game show host, I'm just a contestant.

But I get what you are sayin' and I have always fully supported the builders over anything from the big-box-bike manufacturers. It raises a tangential point in that the bulk of riders do not need a custom geometry frame as they can fit into a stock size. So it is the same that most riders will not require any special tube set either. These are all "nice to have" options even if the client does not avail themselves of the option. Buying a bike made by a builder should then become just a preferred way of obtaining a bike.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is not a feature-set issue that makes a builder's product less desirable than a big-box-bike manufacturer unless the buyer is convinced of what he read in the big-box-bike marketing brochure. 'Cos it comes down to not what's better but whatcha believe.

[dcama5]

I'm not a professional builder, but this might be an interesting angle to consider:

http://www.oswaldcycleworks.com/

Tom Oswald builds custom frames by hand, without the use of any power tools, which some others do, too... That could cut down the overhead, but would increase the time to finish. But in the beginning, when sales are the primary the bottleneck, assuming the skills are there, this would make sense. At any rate, my ex long ago had a bike built by Oswald and liked it very much.

Holy mackerel! I had never heard of Tom Oswald and I clicked on the link in your post and see some of the most gorgeous work I have seen. There are so many highly skilled and artistic frame builders in this country right now it's hard to believe. Let's hope it stays this way.

[GParkes]

Many good comments already, but I thought I'd add a perspective. I have built a dozen frames in my life, but I'm not a framebuilder, rather someone who builds frames as a hobby. There is a difference. I can build a frame in about 30-35 hours with a torch, drill press, homemade jig, tube notcher and files - no mill necessary. Brazing and finishing is not difficult, it is mitering, aligning and getting the material put together exactly like you need it to be, so it rides the way the client WANTS it to. I have raced a fillet brazed frame I built in two editions of Battenkill, I'm pleased. But I also just took delivery of a Kirk. Dave probably made the frame in 1/2 the time I would have, and ten times better. His and Mr. Fattic's years of experience separate themselves from so many new "builders". They do it right, for the client, without any consideration of volume. Dave took about three hours out of his day when I visited him to talk bikes, people we knew in Saratoga, etc, Was that marketing? I don't know, but it wasn't building or administration. It's what he does to understand the client and their desire. I wouldn't care if he did it 5 hours quicker, or it took 3 days longer. And really, who would want a builder just pumping out volume - sounds like Taiwan.

[unterhausen]

I think it's really hard to define the parameters correctly. Back when I was at Trek in the early days, I figure those of us that actually did metal work put out the equivalent of 30 frames a week. We were supposed to do 30 main triangles a day, or 30 rear triangles a day. It's not the best job in the world. It would have been better if they didn't use nickel silver, I'm pretty sure I'm mildly allergic to that stuff.

There are fbuilders around now that have more extensive tooling than the Trek factory in '78. The thing they don't have is the 7 stage chemical frame prep system that kept the whole place running. As always, the trick is to sell all those frames. Those frames could sit through a 100 percent humidity Wisconsin summer and still be ready for paint.

[oldpotatoe]

I have no doubt there's a lot of work. But I have a nice pension and I've spent the last year in the country riding my bike everyday, babysitting my grandson a couple of times a week and.... that's it. It's been a nice vacation and if I'm going to work again I want to be my own boss and work at home doing something cool. So framebuilding has been something I've been toying with for a couple of decades, actually. Taking the frame building course, buying equipment, all start up costs will be a few pennies, so I'm curious what kind of profit would be realistically attainable if I were to do, say, 2 frames a week max. Would it take years to make my investment back, a few months, or what. Assuming I made frames worthy to sell haha

You must not be married.

Looks like you just want to kinda break even, $ wise. I know a couple of small, one person, frame builders and they seem to average about 65-75 frames per year.

So do a biz plan with expected costs, income, etc and see how the $ shake out.

But I don't see that any frame builder could do 1-2 frames per day, alone and keep their sense of humor for long.

[Mayhem]

Assuming your first frames were saleable....a big assumption.....and a shop with everything you need to get started (if you already have building).....you can get carried away here.....maybe $5000 to start depending on what you pay for your (used) mill, you might get your investment back in a year or so. But your first frames will/might be giva-a- ways, and your production will be slow to ramp up, and your sales prices might be lower than you expect to get going. If you can get it going, I can see how it would be rewarding for you. You seem to have the interest. Those are just numbers off the top of my head....guessing for a one man shop.....not a high production multi person shop.

I'm sure everyone researching a career wants to try to get some idea of what kind of income they might bring in before they decide to go through with it. And that's all I'm doing. I know it's not possible to accurately estimate, but just a very, very general idea is all I'm after. Because I have no idea how much lugs, tubing, paint and everything besides the actual equipment cost.

Just for an example, say I build a lugged frame with Reynolds 725. Classic pre-compact racing geometry in a standard size (not custom). Nothing fancy except maybe curved stays. No crazy paint job, just a nice enamel color with custom decals. And let's assume it is actually a desirable frame and I list it for sale for $1000, with a fork obviously being a few hundred more. A realistic profit margin is all I'm after. $100 on the low end? $500 if I'm real lucky? That's all I'm looking for because I have no clue at all. I would never start a business with no inkling about what I could possibly hope to make.

[weisan]

>>I would never start a business with no inkling about what I could possibly hope to make.

See, that's the thing, Texas mayhem pal.... You were focused on only one aspect of the equation, obviously a very important one to you personally but the others, especially the ones who are IN the business, were sharing generously their insights into the various areas of the business which people tend to overlook.

I don't know much about the business but i learned a lot just by reading this thread. One thing that popped in my head is the age old concept of "paying your dues". We live in a time of warp speed and microwave instant creation. If I want something, I just make it happen not because i am smart or capable but merely because I can. Sometimes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I am sure there are exceptions, and exactly just that, exceptions. Most, if not all, that manage to survive the initial attrition rate and stay on business are the ones who have spent countless hours especially the golden years of their life prepping and cutting tubes, welding joints, and filing curves, moving from one station to another, slowly making progress over time before they have the confidence and the skills to handle the whole process.
In other words, they have paid their dues.

[Doug Fattic]

Let me give you a few numbers to help put things in better perspective. Students in my class usually pay about $400 (give or take) for tubes, lugs, one ounce of silver and a pound of flux to make one frame. Buying materials in bulk can obviously reduce that amount. I pay about $100 for wet paint materials – which does not include any of my overhead expenses. Having someone else do a wholesale one color paint job will be a minimum of $300. Most custom customers want something nicer and that will run at a minimum of $500 or more.

The cost of equipment to set yourself up reasonably to make one frame a week would roughly be $10,000. You would want at least 400 square feet of shop space somewhere. Guys often gut their garages. You can do it for much less as a hobby builder waiting for used equipment to come on the market but that would not be a solid business plan with any time deadlines.

A hobby builder takes more time and less equipment to make each frame.

Tuition for my 3 week class is $2500 + materials + lodging next door so there goes $3000 + travel expenses. I get a lot of students that have taken other framebuilding classes and realized they didn’t know enough. Even though good instruction shortens the learning curve it still is a long learning curve.

The most profitable American framebuilders make racing style of frames and have others paint them. They take the least amount of time to design and make. However the most popular kind of bike steel framebuilders make today are the kind Jan Heine likes with fatter tires, fenders, custom racks, generator lights. You can’t buy this kind in a bike store. These are sold to middle aged guys realizing they are never going to win the Tour de France anymore and want something comfortable and practical but still possible to go fast. It takes twice as much time to make these.

Approximately half of a builder’s time is spent running the business not related directly to bench time. I’m sure some builders ratio of nonsense to work is different but this is for general planning not someone’s specific situation.

If you paint yourself the cost of equipment would be an additional $10,000. It doesn’t tend to be efficient doing one-off frames but that is the reality. Joe Bell can do a batch of primers in one go. It doesn’t take much time to spray but a lot of time in preparation. It would be more accurate to call painting sanding instead. A multi color paint job can take as long as building a frame. I’ve taught a number of builders to paint because they wanted more control over their time of delivery and cash flow.

I think the reason most people choose to build frames for a career is because they love bicycling. It is not based on finances. Of my last 200 framebuilding class students I can only think of 1 student who took business in college. They come from 3 backgrounds. Art, engineering and if they don’t have a college education, bike shop experience.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[eddief]

to grow a garage full of pot plants? You know...just you, the plants, and the middle man. I've seen some fine, healthy, green plants that rival the beauty of custom steel.

[Grant McLean]

Frankly.......for almost every builder I can think of the limit to production isn't production itself - it's sales. Sell nothing, build nothing. Selling is always the constraint. The idea that anyone can hang out there shingle and plan on building 2 bikes a week is fun but very naive. You need to sell two bikes a week first.

This has been my experience as a retailer too. How did brands like Colnago,
or Pinarello evolved into the large operations they became? There was demand,
and production methods changed to fulfill the need.

-g

[David Kirk]

I'm sure everyone researching a career wants to try to get some idea of what kind of income they might bring in before they decide to go through with it. And that's all I'm doing. I know it's not possible to accurately estimate, but just a very, very general idea is all I'm after. Because I have no idea how much lugs, tubing, paint and everything besides the actual equipment cost.

Just for an example, say I build a lugged frame with Reynolds 725. Classic pre-compact racing geometry in a standard size (not custom). Nothing fancy except maybe curved stays. No crazy paint job, just a nice enamel color with custom decals. And let's assume it is actually a desirable frame and I list it for sale for $1000, with a fork obviously being a few hundred more. A realistic profit margin is all I'm after. $100 on the low end? $500 if I'm real lucky? That's all I'm looking for because I have no clue at all. I would never start a business with no inkling about what I could possibly hope to make.



Here are some VERY rough numbers to consider -

Reynolds 725 tubes/lugs/drops/braze-ons - on the low end - $300
Wet paint - on the low end - $350
Expendables (everyone forgets the expendables) - flux/silver/emery/gases - $100
Overhead - biz specific - power/liability insurance - $50/bike

Super duper rough cost estimate total - $800
Gross profit @ $1000 retail - $200



Start up cost - assuming no lathe/mill and hand mitering -

Tooling - jig/reamers/facers/alignment plate....etc - $8,000
Artwork - decals for first year - $500
Hand tools - dynafile/handfiles/vice...etc - $1000

Very rough bare minimum tooling cost - $9500



With this very rough math it would take the gross profit of the first 47 bikes to pay for the start up cost during which time you would earn no money whatsoever. After those first 47 bikes you would be spending a minimum of 15 hours (assuming you are very quick - very quick for someone that has not been doing it for years) to build a lugged frame (no fork) to build a frame at an average pretax pay rate of $13/hr.



I'm sure many would argue with the numbers above - many would think them way too low and many too high but I can tell you from my 25+ years of building that they are pretty darn close - close enough to give the general impression of the viability. One thing I have't touched on is skill level as it is super hard to quantify. It sounds like you have not built many, if any, frames at this point and I applaud your enthusiasm to learn........the thing to keep in mind is learning is extremely time consuming and costs a ton of money. I was as lucky as one can get and learned in a production environment where I laid my hands on countless bikes and had the best guys in the country as co-workers to nudge and guide and bust my balls. This is a HUGE deal and one that most overlook for some reason. To get good at something you need to do it a lot - to do it a lot you need a lot of bikes to build - to have a lot of bikes to build you need a lot of folks that want to give you money for the bikes you are learning to build........customers.


Even if you like the idea of working really hard for that pay rate you may be missing the key ingredient here - customers. Without customers it's all moot. Just because someone offers bikes for sale doesn't mean anyone will buy them. The list of builders who have made it a year and then quietly faded away is VERY long. I have a lot of folks come to visit me and my shop to see how I do what I do with the eye toward starting their own f-building business (I have an open door policy) and I ask the same question to everyone that comes - "why would someone buy a bike from you?" This sounds harsh but it's a simple and honest question - why you when there are so many choices? There are lots of guys who want to build for a full time living or as a side biz and most are willing to work for very low pay so what will separate you from the throng? I'm pretty sure that not a single person that has made it to my door has ever considered this and it's the number one consideration. Why you? If you have a good answer to this question then I think you might be able to make a go of it.......if not then the chances of it going the way you want go way down.

I fully realize the above is less than encouraging and that is not my intent. My intent is to be honest and share what I know from experience to be true and to give you and others some things to think about.

Dave

[Grant McLean]

Approximately half of a builder’s time is spent running the business not related directly to bench time. I’m sure some builders ratio of nonsense to work is different but this is for general planning not someone’s specific situation.


Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

I'm sure for some, they would like to spend most of their time at the bench,
but for others, the diversity of tasks involved in the business and all the
difference skills from selling, customer service, fitting, designing, marketing,
and being an entrepreneur is a big part of the attraction. If all one wanted
to do was work at the bench, I wouldn't reccomend being self employed, and
running your own business.

-g

[Doug Fattic]

David touched on having the ability and sustainable interest and let me expand on that a bit. Just like everyone is different in their ability to make music, play sports and learn a foreign language so not everyone can work well with their hands. Most students that come to my class don’t know if they have this ability or not. That is one of the best reasons to take a class. If they don’t have it they can still leave with something nice fit just to them. If they do have it they can have the confidence that with more practice they can get good.

There are 2 aspects of this talent. Being able to do it well and also being able to do it fast enough to make a profit. They aren’t the same. I remember one middle aged student that made an exceptional frame in class but realized he did so because he took 170 hours to do it. He was a guy that was successful in running a business and understood he couldn’t move faster so gave up any idea of making frames as a business. There are also a lot of students that simply don’t have good hand coordination. In class we can help them overcome any deficiencies but on their own they wouldn’t make it.

Many students that have future aspirations do so in stages. 1st they see if they have the ability and sustainable interest. They keep their day jobs and build on the side and see how it goes. Many are not the primary wage earner but have wives with significant incomes or at least health insurance. They need an at home job to take care of the kids and have flexible hours.

Younger students often have a harder time than older students – and sometimes a much harder time. Older ones usually have learned how to work with their hands. 30 years ago a student that was 20 years old was better prepared than a young student today. In our throw away culture we don’t fix stuff like we used to and shop is no longer taught in high school.

The path to being a professional framebuilder has changed. In the 70’s we had to go to Europe to learn. Later there were businesses like Serotta where some like the Davids could get the necessary experience. Those places don’t exist anymore. Apprenticeships have always been rare. Now people will take a framebuilding class to get their start. I gear my classes towards this group. In addition I send some of them over to Ukraine to crank out heavy duty transportation frames/bicycles for pastors.

Practice makes someone more efficient. Every student with decent ability will make a professional quality frame in my class. Let me define that. Their frame will fit their contact points and how it will be used. The brazing material will be applied within its temperature window. It will be completely where it should go and nowhere it shouldn’t (like having really clean lug shorelines). It will be aligned to within a mm of an imaginary centerline. It will be filed so it looks nice. The problem is that it will take them 3 or 4 times as long to make as a pro. The other problem is that on their 2nd frame when something starts to go wrong their isn’t an expert looking over their shoulder to make corrections. To make a profit one has to reduce the amount of time to make a frame. I often hear some veterans say a beginner needs to do hundreds if not thousands of repetitions before their work is acceptable. That is a good idea if one is self taught but not necessary for the well trained.

[Scooper]

I'd really like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. In particular, I'd like to thank Kirk Pacenti, Doug Fattic, Dave Kirk, and Eric (unterhausen) for sharing their thoughts as guys who walk the walk.

The question posed in the OP was basically about reasonable production numbers, but thankfully the thread became much more. I greatly appreciate the breadth and depth of the responses here.