Riding with a gun...

[makoti]

No details, but clearly not a good idea for this guy.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-man-dies-after-gun-goes-during-bike-ride-cops-n322771

[Elefantino]

Somehow knew it was the Gunshine State before looking at the link.

[tuscanyswe]

Thats just so sad. Guns got no place on bikes.

[Vinci]

Guns don't just "go off". There is more to this story.

[OtayBW]

This again?

[93legendti]

That's great journalism. The article doesn't even mention the type of gun or caliber so the bs factor of the claim can be evaluated. Good story, thou... He was JRA...

[christian]

More importantly, it doesn't mention whether he was wearing a helmet!

[josephr]

Guns don't just "go off". There is more to this story.

unless its a Glock.

[Lewis Moon]

Not a cyclist. Just someone on a bike.

I hate that. It's like when some idiot falls off a trail and offs themselves in or near a rock climbing area, the media invariably calls them a "climber".

[makoti]

This again?

Again?? People have shot themselves on bikes before? Scant details, but I'm willing to bet he was a "cyclist" simply because he was on a bicycle. Ya know.. not like us. ;)

[sandyrs]

Again?? People have shot themselves on bikes before? Scant details, but I'm willing to bet he was a "cyclist" simply because he was on a bicycle. Ya know.. not like us. ;)

There was a long thread a few weeks ago about carrying while riding.

[makoti]

Not a cyclist. Just someone on a bike.


Jinx. ;)

[makoti]

There was a long thread a few weeks ago about carrying while riding.

Yep, but afaik, it was all speculation on the dangers or lack thereof. No actual shooting of oneself.

[rugbysecondrow]

Guns don't just "go off". There is more to this story.

Agreed.

[Gsinill]

Not a cyclist. Just someone on a bike.

I hat that. It's like when some idiot falls off a trail and offs themselves in or near a rock climbing area, the media invariably calls them a "climber".

cyclist |ˈsīk(ə)list|
noun
a person who rides a bicycle.

Only posting since I don't think it's relevant whether the person on the bike was an experienced cyclist or not, unless you assume that being experienced on a bike would have avoided the gun to go off.

[witcombusa]

Let's not confuse things with any actual facts :no:

[parris]

Joseph what Glock stories have you heard of them just going off? I'm not a fanboy but have carried a 22 for 20 years and a 27 for almost that long. I've had a high mileage gen 1 22 slide crack on me one year during requal's. But none of the guns in our dept or other local depts have just gone off of their own accord.

I'm not saying that it can't happen but as an armorer I'm very interested in malfunctions/problems with a system that I deal with on a daily basis.

[Gsinill]

That's great journalism. The article doesn't even mention the type of gun or caliber so the bs factor of the claim can be evaluated. Good story, thou... He was JRA...

From the article: "After reviewing video from nearby businesses and talking to witnesses, detectives determined that Smith was riding his bike when the handgun he was carrying in his jacket pocket discharged."

Unless you suspect the above statement being BS as well, I don't understand why type or caliper would be relevant for the fact that the gun discharged in his pocket.

What's JRA, by the way?

[azrider]

Not a cyclist. Just someone on a bike.

this.

nothing to see here.

[Lewis Moon]

cyclist |ˈsīk(ə)list|
noun
a person who rides a bicycle.

Only posting since I don't think it's relevant whether the person on the bike was an experienced cyclist or not, unless you assume that being experienced on a bike would have avoided the gun to go off.

If a gun were to go off while the person were driving a car, would the media call them a driver? No. While they were walking? If it were to go off while they were making dinner would they be a cook?

[berserk87]

This again?

My most despised type of post. If you are tired/bored/annoyed by someone else's choice of topic, why respond? Ignore it and move on to something that interests you instead of pooping on someone else's thread.

The very existence of a forum like this is for discussion. Why discourage it?

[tigoat]

unless its a Glock.

Glocks although outdated but still are one of the safer handguns to carry loaded. There are two trigger levers to depress inside a full guard in order to fire it. Both XD from Springfield and M&P from Smith are based on Glocks design but have improved upon it significantly.

It is not clear how this handgun went off unless he was carrying a revolver with the hammer down but still it will take quite a force to release it.

I have been packing legally since the day one when they first started issuing a carry permit. I do not pack when riding a bike though, as it is too hard to conceal.

[goonster]

Joseph what Glock stories have you heard of them just going off?
OK, they don't "just go off", it was an "accidental" or "negligent" discharge. It's always the fault of a worn holster, or an untrained user, or sloppy technique, or whatever. But it seems to happen more often than average with Glocks, and you already know why.
Here's how we can blame the jacket. (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/robert-farago/windbreaker-drawstring-triggers-glock-negligent-discharge/)

[Saint Vitus]

From the article: "After reviewing video from nearby businesses and talking to witnesses, detectives determined that Smith was riding his bike when the handgun he was carrying in his jacket pocket discharged."

Unless you suspect the above statement being BS as well, I don't understand why type or caliper would be relevant for the fact that the gun discharged in his pocket.

What's JRA, by the way?

Just Riding Around

And yes, improperly maintained guns can discharge as well as those that are improperly handled. Caliber is not relevant (.22s kill the same as .45...), the type and brand of gun might be, especially for those cyclists who are carrying or considering doing so... not that I'm advocating that mind you.

[josephr]

Glocks although outdated but still are one of the safer handguns to carry loaded. There are two trigger levers to depress inside a full guard in order to fire it. Both XD from Springfield and M&P from Smith are based on Glocks design but have improved upon it significantly.

It is not clear how this handgun went off unless he was carrying a revolver with the hammer down but still it will take quite a force to release it.

I have been packing legally since the day one when they first started issuing a carry permit. I do not pack when riding a bike though, as it is too hard to conceal.

Sorry --- I should've put a winky/smiley or something behind it to let you know I was joking. Didn't mean to troll you --- this subject completely went off a few weeks ago when I asked the question about carrying on a bike. I eventually had the thread locked as there's lot of different opinions --- the debate/discussion completely remained civil, which is testament to our community if anything.

[fuzzalow]

Dunno 'bout all the facts in this incident. Don't care nor see them as relevant.

I do know the best possible outcome of a sketchy situation happened: whatever mishap occurred was inflicted only the person that chose to carry a firearm. It's discharge did not kill or injure an unknowing or unwitting bystander. Only the person with knowledge aforethought and indeterminate skills or training in carrying the weapon was the party killed.

An unfortunate outcome for the victim but the best possible outcome for all others that had no part in, or desire, to be involved in any way with the victim.

[93legendti]

No facts...just lots of assumptions and bias. When you're biased, who needs facts?

[OtayBW]

My most despised type of post. If you are tired/bored/annoyed by someone else's choice of topic, why respond? Ignore it and move on to something that interests you instead of pooping on someone else's thread.

The very existence of a forum like this is for discussion. Why discourage it?
And I have expressed my opinion in the discussion. Very sorry that it does not meet with your sensibilities.....

[93legendti]

From the article: "After reviewing video from nearby businesses and talking to witnesses, detectives determined that Smith was riding his bike when the handgun he was carrying in his jacket pocket discharged."

Unless you suspect the above statement being BS as well, I don't understand why type or caliper would be relevant for the fact that the gun discharged in his pocket.

What's JRA, by the way?

Just riding along.

A good journalist would quote the detectives' language. "Detectives determined" is spin. Normal Guns just do not go off... The trigger has to be pulled. I have seen a loaded glock (blanks) thrown across a gun range...they just don't go off by themselves.

Did he pull the trigger? Where his hands on the bars? Was his hand on the gun when it discharged? Was the bike moving when the gun went off?


If it's newsworthy, it is worthy of all pertinent facts.

You can be convicted of drunk driving if your drunk sitting in the driver's seat of a stationary, parked vehicle...the conviction doesn't mean the car was actually moving or the drunk was driving...

I guy I knew had his gun "discharge while golfing", on the 5th hole...he put a bullet thru his brains and committed suicide....also in florida, but 25 yrs ago...

[rwsaunders]

Sounds a bit like the Plaxico Burress incident...only he did time because of the lack of a NY license.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/football/06/06/burress.release/

[SpokeValley]

Guns don't just "go off". There is more to this story.

Exactly...this one smells.

[Gsinill]

Just riding along.

A good journalist would quote the detectives' language. "Detectives determined" is spin. Normal Guns just do not go off... The trigger has to be pulled. I have seen a loaded glock (blanks) thrown across a gun range...they just don't go off by themselves.

Did he pull the trigger? Where his hands on the bars? Was his hand on the gun when it discharged? Was the bike moving when the gun went off?


If it's newsworthy, it is worthy of all pertinent facts.

You can be convicted of drunk driving if your drunk sitting in the driver's seat of a stationary, parked vehicle...the conviction doesn't mean the car was actually moving or the drunk was driving...

I guy I knew had his gun "discharge while golfing", on the 5th hole...he put a bullet thru his brains and committed suicide....also in florida, but 25 yrs ago...

The guy was riding a bike while carrying a gun and accidentally shot himself.
Honestly, that's all the information I need to consider this factual journalism, I don't see any "BS factor".
You might be interested in more details, I am not since it will most likely never be relevant to me.

You don't seem to have a high opinion of the detectives if you question their assessment that this was an accident rather than suicide etc.
Unless you have any valid suspicion that those officers are anti-gun or otherwise politically motivated, I'd categorize your post as an attempt to downplay one of the obvious risks of carrying a gun.
I know there are lots of folks with disdain towards "government" but I always thought law enforcement and soldiers are excluded and considered part of the "good government" ;)

[93legendti]

The guy was riding a bike while carrying a gun and accidentally shot himself.
Honestly, that's all the information I need to consider this factual journalism, I don't see any "BS factor".
You might be interested in more details, I am not since it will most likely never be relevant to me.

You don't seem to have a high opinion of the detectives if you question their assessment that this was an accident rather than suicide etc.
Unless you have any valid suspicion that those officers are anti-gun or otherwise politically motivated, I'd categorize your post as an attempt to downplay one of the obvious risks of carrying a gun.
I know there are lots of folks with disdain towards "government" but I always thought law enforcement and soldiers are excluded and considered part of the "good government" ;)

You completely misunderstood my posts. I have disdain towards the "journalist" who didn't provide the necessary facts to understand exactly what happened. We can only guess what happened ... a good journalist would've probed if guns just go off when they are sitting in someone's pocket. I love the police. I hate shoddy journalism. We don't know what the detectives actually said because there are no quotes from the detectives.

[witcombusa]

I know there are lots of folks with disdain towards "government" but I always thought law enforcement and soldiers are excluded and considered part of the "good government" ;)


No exclution

[berserk87]

And I have expressed my opinion in the discussion. Very sorry that it does not meet with your sensibilities.....

You did not express an opinion about the subject matter directly - you asked a rhetorical question that meant to show that you are annoyed with the fact that folks are discussing this. If you are annoyed or find the topic beneath you, why not just move on to another? What is the point of doing that? Are you trying to stop others from talking about this subject?

I don't understand why someone who does not like a discussion would try to stop others from having it.

[bluesea]

Just riding along.

A good journalist would quote the detectives' language. "Detectives determined" is spin. Normal Guns just do not go off... The trigger has to be pulled. I have seen a loaded glock (blanks) thrown across a gun range...they just don't go off by themselves.

Did he pull the trigger? Where his hands on the bars? Was his hand on the gun when it discharged? Was the bike moving when the gun went off?


If it's newsworthy, it is worthy of all pertinent facts.

You can be convicted of drunk driving if your drunk sitting in the driver's seat of a stationary, parked vehicle...the conviction doesn't mean the car was actually moving or the drunk was driving...

I guy I knew had his gun "discharge while golfing", on the 5th hole...he put a bullet thru his brains and committed suicide....also in florida, but 25 yrs ago...


Agree. "To shoot" is no the same as an accidental discharge. To use the former to describe the latter is for all intents and purposes yellow journalism.

[yngpunk]

You completely misunderstood my posts. I have disdain towards the "journalist" who didn't provide the necessary facts to understand exactly what happened. We can only guess what happened ... a good journalist would've probed if guns just go off when they are sitting in someone's pocket. I love the police. I hate shoddy journalism. We don't know what the detectives actually said because there are no quotes from the detectives.

Valid points, but do you really think that the larger media consuming public wants the "necessary facts"? The article linked below by Daniel Roth (Executive Editor at LinkedIn) provides some interesting perspective, albeit related to financial reporting. To quote from the article:

"The issue: the markets had turned mobile and ever-present, with everyone checking on stocks from wherever they were, not from the scrolling ticker. She wasn’t riding this trend, she was being asked to ignore it. Her managers, she says, wanted her to put more people on screen and for less time — focus on sound bites, give the audience even more of what they used to love, but faster."

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/changing-world-money-honey-daniel-roth

Do you think NBC News is going to be any different?

[makoti]

You completely misunderstood my posts. I have disdain towards the "journalist" who didn't provide the necessary facts to understand exactly what happened. We can only guess what happened ... a good journalist would've probed if guns just go off when they are sitting in someone's pocket. I love the police. I hate shoddy journalism. We don't know what the detectives actually said because there are no quotes from the detectives.

Well, the only person who could tell you that with absolute certainty won't be answering any questions, so all we have is: he was riding, it went off, he died.

[Vinci]

I'm puzzled why Glocks are somehow prone to "going off". They literally cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled. The firing pin is completely at rest, under no tension, until the trigger pulls it back. Even if that weren't enough, there is a plunger inside the slide that prevents the firing pin from even being able to move forward unless the trigger is pulled.

[OtayBW]

You did not express an opinion about the subject matter directly - you asked a rhetorical question that meant to show that you are annoyed with the fact that folks are discussing this. If you are annoyed or find the topic beneath you, why not just move on to another? What is the point of doing that? Are you trying to stop others from talking about this subject?

I don't understand why someone who does not like a discussion would try to stop others from having it.Hey - I quit carrying this around several hours ago. Sorry to see it's still bothering you. Cheers. :rolleyes:

[Tony T]

Guns don't just "go off". There is more to this story.

An improperly carried handgun will ("After speaking with a witness and reviewing security video from a nearby business, detectives determined Smith was riding his bike when a handgun in his jacket pocket discharged.")

I don't own a gun, never have, but carrying one in a jacket pocket while riding a bike doesn't sound like the proper handling of a firearm.

[bcroslin]

I live in St Pete where this took place and there's zero in the local media about this. The most I could find is a blurb on a local TV station site and the area this happened in is not some place you want to be after dark.

[makoti]

I live in St Pete where this took place and there's zero in the local media about this. The most I could find is a blurb on a local TV station site and the area this happened in is not some place you want to be after dark.

There was once a drug bust on the street where I live in VA. A few doors down from me, across the parking lot. I can easily see this house. I heard about it because my parents, who were living in NC at the time, saw a blurb in their LOCAL Wilmington, not even Charlotte or the like, paper. No one on my street realized it happened.

[parris]

Goonster I was asking Josephr the question because he made the statement that Glocks go off. Any system can malfunction and if he had heard of any instances of this happening with a Glock it's something I have an interest in on a few levels nothing more or less.

One of the posters made the statement that a.d. tend to happen with Glocks more than other pistols and I don't think he's wrong. The Glock has been on the market for close to 30 years. Many new shooters pick a Glock due at least in part the easier learning curve.

[Gsinill]

You completely misunderstood my posts. I have disdain towards the "journalist" who didn't provide the necessary facts to understand exactly what happened. We can only guess what happened ... a good journalist would've probed if guns just go off when they are sitting in someone's pocket. I love the police. I hate shoddy journalism. We don't know what the detectives actually said because there are no quotes from the detectives.

Really?

Guns are like cars, right? Guns don't kill, neither do cars, it's people that kill, right? At least that's what I hear a lot.
That said, once determined that it was an accident, why do you care about the details?
Would anyone call it shoddy journalism if some poor soul crashes their car into a wall in a fatal accident and nobody mentions the brand or engine size of the car?
I am sure there are answers out there to WHOEVER needs or wants them, I don't.
Completely irrelevant to me.

Guy decided to carry a gun, obviously assuming the risk of it going off (as slight as it might be), gun does goes off, guy is dead.
All the facts or even more than I need to know...

BTW, not sure this outlet is considered "shoddy" or is known for "yellow journalism" when it comes to gun policy:
Police: Florida man riding bicycle is killed when handgun in jacket pocket accidentally fires (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/12/police-florida-man-riding-bicycle-is-killed-when-handgun-in-jacket-pocket/)

Just saying' ;)

[Scooper]

I live in St Pete where this took place and there's zero in the local media about this. The most I could find is a blurb on a local TV station site and the area this happened in is not some place you want to be after dark.

Man found dead apparently shot self accidentally, St. Pete police say | St. Petersburg Tribune (http://tbo.com/pinellas-county/man-shot-to-death-in-st-pete-police-say-20150312/)

Troy Earl Smith Jr., 25, 985 Melrose Ave. S., was found at 1:13 p.m. lying on the ground in the area of 18th Avenue South just east of 16th Street, according to a release from the St. Petersburg Police.

From the Google street view, it doesn't look like a bad neighborhood.

[bcroslin]

Man found dead apparently shot self accidentally, St. Pete police say | St. Petersburg Tribune (http://tbo.com/pinellas-county/man-shot-to-death-in-st-pete-police-say-20150312/)



From the Google street view, it doesn't look like a bad neighborhood.

It's definitely a high-crime neighborhood. I don't want to make too many assumptions about why he was carrying but I'm guessing it probably wasn't because he was worried about being harassed by drivers while out training.

[beeatnik]

Really?

Guns are like cars, right? Guns don't kill, neither do cars, it's people that kill, right? At least that's what I hear a lot.
That said, once determined that it was an accident, why do you care about the details?
Would anyone call it shoddy journalism if some poor soul crashes their car into a wall in a fatal accident and nobody mentions the brand or engine size of the car?
I am sure there are answers out there to WHOEVER needs or wants them, I don't.
Completely irrelevant to me.

Guy decided to carry a gun, obviously assuming the risk of it going off (as slight as it might be), gun does goes off, guy is dead.
All the facts or even more than I need to know...

BTW, not sure this outlet is considered "shoddy" or is known for "yellow journalism" when it comes to gun policy:
Police: Florida man riding bicycle is killed when handgun in jacket pocket accidentally fires (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/12/police-florida-man-riding-bicycle-is-killed-when-handgun-in-jacket-pocket/)

Just saying' ;)

Gsinill, I like your style.

[unterhausen]

Guns don't just "go off". There is more to this story.

our local walmart was closed for a couple of hours because some idiot dropped his gun in the parking lot and it went off. Thankfully, it didn't hit anyone. Guns do just go off if they are mishandled. My guess is the cyclist adjusted the gun in his pocket and mistakenly pulled the trigger. I'm sorry he died, but I'm glad it wasn't someone else that paid for his negligence. Makes me recall the woman who shot and killed herself with a gun she was carrying in her bra holster (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/18/woman-kills-self-adjusting-bra-holster/23640143/)

[bcroslin]

our local walmart was closed for a couple of hours because some idiot dropped his gun in the parking lot and it went off. Thankfully, it didn't hit anyone. Guns do just go off if they are mishandled. My guess is the cyclist adjusted the gun in his pocket and mistakenly pulled the trigger. I'm sorry he died, but I'm glad it wasn't someone else that paid for his negligence. Makes me recall the woman who shot and killed herself with a gun she was carrying in her bra holster (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/18/woman-kills-self-adjusting-bra-holster/23640143/)

The whole issue with guns in the USA is that there isn't a mandatory minimum for the IQ of the owner.

[joosttx]

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8753/16620132499_dbd28cec45_z.jpg

[93legendti]

our local walmart was closed for a couple of hours because some idiot dropped his gun in the parking lot and it went off. Thankfully, it didn't hit anyone. Guns do just go off if they are mishandled. My guess is the cyclist adjusted the gun in his pocket and mistakenly pulled the trigger. I'm sorry he died, but I'm glad it wasn't someone else that paid for his negligence. Makes me recall the woman who shot and killed herself with a gun she was carrying in her bra holster (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/18/woman-kills-self-adjusting-bra-holster/23640143/)


Mishandling isn't a gun firing on its own. 2 different things.

It's called pulling the trigger of a loaded, charged gun..that's not just "going off", as in JRA.


By the way, good article:

"A Michigan woman accidentally shot herself to death last month while adjusting the .22-caliber revolver in her bra holster, police said Wednesday.

Christina Bond, 55, was struck in an eye in her St. Joseph home on New Year's Day. She died the next day in a Kalamazoo hospital, where she had been airlifted.

"She was having trouble adjusting her bra holster, couldn't get it to fit the way she wanted it to," St. Joseph Public Safety Director Mark Clapp told the Kalamazoo Gazette. "She was looking down at it and accidentally discharged the weapon."

No other details were released. Police are awaiting the full autopsy report.

Bond, a mother of two sons, was a bookkeeper and officer administrator for the Southwest Michigan Community Action Agency, and had previously had run the office for the Road to Life Church, The Herald-Palladium reported. She also ministered to inmates at the Berrien County Jail.

St. Joseph is on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan, north of the Indiana line."

[Shortsocks]

This has turned out to be a ridiculous topic. Dude, shot himself on accident while riding, dude didn't shoot himself accidentally while riding....one thing is for sure, he is dead. If he didn't have the gun on him he wouldn't have been dead.

I ride with people in Texas who carry guns, and it doesn't help them climb any better. So if it doesn't help you climb, hydrate, make your ass comfortable (for brooks owners) than it doesn't belong on my persons when riding. :)

[goonster]

They literally cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled.
Google "Glock accidental discharge". Folks keep finding ways to pull that trigger when they don't mean to, mostly because it is pulled by something other than an index finger. If you follow the link I posted earlier, you can see security cam footage of a guy shooting himself in the leg while reholstering.

These are obviously not mechanical malfunctions, but the passive safety is simply not as effective as it appears on paper. However counterintuitive, it is safer to throw the thing "across the range" with a round chambered than it is to draw and reholster in real life.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Do any of you guys actually go out and ride your bikes any more? :rolleyes:

BBD

[Peter P.]

http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9780307719959_p0_v1_s260x420.JPG

Read the book, Glock: The Rise of America's Gun. If my recollection is correct, there was some number of pages devoted to a failure of an earlier model Glock which would cause accidental discharges.

A good book whether you're a gun nut or not.

I agree with a lot of the subtext of the discussion here: Was this a lycra-clad, avid cyclist or some hoodie on a department store junker. Does it make a difference? Of course it does because it either raises some questions or enforces a stereotype: answering the questions gives us a more complete picture of Who and possibly Why. If it were a lycra-claddie, this incident could tarnish the reputation of cyclists in some peoples' eyes and would be a concern to many of us.

Was the cyclist a legal gun owner?

Also if I recall, there was a woman who was shot recently by her own toddler. Mom's handgun was in her purse, possibly left in a shopping carriage. Toddler found the gun and...

This stuff happens. If you're gonna own and carry a gun, you have to be willing to accept the possible consequences. Just like accepting the risks of riding a bike in traffic.

[Tony T]

This stuff happens. If you're gonna own and carry a gun, you have to be willing to accept the possible consequences. Just like accepting the risks of riding a bike in traffic.

Need to accept the responsibility (i.e. proper handling). It is irresponsible to leave a loaded gun in reach of a 2 year-old with the safety off. Some people should not be allowed to own firearms.

Stuff does not just happen.

[Dead Man]

Need to accept the responsibility (i.e. proper handling). It is irresponsible to leave a loaded gun in reach of a 2 year-old with the safety off. Some people should not be allowed to own firearms.

Stuff does not just happen.

With the safety off?

[Tony T]

:bike:With the safety off?

I assumed that the safety was off.
If a 2 year-old is able to defeat the safety, then there is something wrong with the design.

[witcombusa]

:bike:

I assumed that the safety was off.
If a 2 year-old is able to defeat the safety, then there is something wrong with the design.

That is not the function of a firearms "safety". It is in no way used as a lock of any kind.
You clearly have no experience with firearms.

[Dead Man]

:bike:

I assumed that the safety was off.
If a 2 year-old is able to defeat the safety, then there is something wrong with the design.

Most CCW-type handguns don't have safeties.

[Tony T]

Most CCW-type handguns don't have safeties.

Need to accept the responsibility (i.e. proper handling). It is irresponsible to leave a loaded gun in reach of a 2 year-old.
Some people should not be allowed to own firearms.

Stuff does not just happen.

Better?

[bcroslin]

thread lock commencing in 3, 2, 1

[Tony T]

That is not the function of a firearms "safety". It is in no way used as a lock of any kind.
You clearly have no experience with firearms.

I already said that I have no experience with firearms.

Leaving a gun in reach of a 2 year-old was the point that not all adults should be allowed to own firearms.

But lets divert this to the function of a safety and how it can be easily and quickly be set to off by a 2 year old.

[witcombusa]

I already said that I have no experience with firearms.

Leaving a gun in reach of a 2 year-old was the point that not all adults should be allowed to own firearms.

But lets divert this to the function of a safety and how it can be easily and quickly be set to off by a 2 year old.

Did you not read what I wrote? It is in no way intended to be a LOCK.
That is what a gun lock/lock box/safe is for.

[Dead Man]

Need to accept the responsibility (i.e. proper handling). It is irresponsible to leave a loaded gun in reach of a 2 year-old.
Some people should not be allowed to own firearms.

Stuff does not just happen.

Better?

I disagree that some people shouldn't be allowed to own firearms. Should some people not be allowed to speak or write? They're both constitutionally protected natural rights, but the 1st is even deadlier than the 2nd.

And yea, stuff does just happen. If you were dictator of the world, and you vaporized all firearms, people would still find ways to accidentally kill themselves and other people. I'm quite sure it would make no statistically significant difference in the number of people that accidentally die.

[velomonkey]

People Don't Pedal Bikes - Guns Do

Guns Don't Kill People - Bikes Do

How we got to 5 pages with no one saying that is beyond me. :banana:

[russd32]

This my friends, is why you don't carry a gun in your pocket without a holster. A simple gun pouch with some trigger protection probably would have prevented this.

[cloudguy]

I'm quite sure it would make no statistically significant difference in the number of people that accidentally die.

Aaaaahaabullsh$t.

[weisan]

Django Unchained

[Bruce K]

All right.

Not sure why this one is so much more "testy" than the previous thread on a related topic....

But the more personal tone here needs to be dialed back

If I understand the story, a person who was riding a bike was also carrying a loaded handgun. Under circumstances unknown, the gun was discharged, killing the person on the bike.

The story became a bit sensational as people want to use it to do what? Discuss gun control? Journalism in these situations? Or Darwinism?

Discuss the merits of the situation but, based on the previous thread I'm betting there are not too many serious cyclist, who are also responsible gun owners, would EVER carry a loaded weapon when riding.

Please, keep the discussion on whatever point you want to make from this "accident", but please, keep away from the personal digs.

BK

[witcombusa]

All right.

Not sure why this one is so much more "testy" than the previous thread on a related topic....

But the more personal tone here needs to be dialed back

If I understand the story, a person who was riding a bike was also carrying a loaded handgun. Under circumstances unknown, the gun was discharged, killing the person on the bike.

The story became a bit sensational as people want to use it to do what? Discuss gun control? Journalism in these situations? Or Darwinism?

Discuss the merits of the situation but, based on the previous thread I'm betting there are not too many serious cyclist, who are also responsible gun owners, would EVER carry a loaded weapon when riding.
Please, keep the discussion on whatever point you want to make from this "accident", but please, keep away from the personal digs.

BK

I have under 'special' circumstances, but not as a normal ride equipment item.
Like any tool it has it's time and place. (yes, I am a licensed carry holder for almost 35 years)

[oldpotatoe]

I already said that I have no experience with firearms.

Leaving a gun in reach of a 2 year-old was the point that not all adults should be allowed to own firearms.

But lets divert this to the function of a safety and how it can be easily and quickly be set to off by a 2 year old.

Not all adults should be allowed to have children, either..but that's another discussion.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2300110.The_Marching_Moron

[velomonkey]

Not all adults should be allowed to have children, either..but that's another discussion.


As said by Todd in Parenthood

"Well, it depends on the man. I had a man around. He used to wake me up every morning by flicking lit cigarettes at my head. He'd say, 'Hey, asshole, get up and make me breakfast.' You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, or drive a car. Hell, you need a license to catch a fish! But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father."

[Cicli]

I ride with two guns.

[Tony T]

Did you not read what I wrote? It is in no way intended to be a LOCK.
That is what a gun lock/lock box/safe is for.

You did not read what I said. I said that it was irresponsible for an adult to leave a loaded handgun within reach of a 2 year old with the safety off.

I concede that the handgun in question might not have had a safety, however, a 2 year old should not be able to defeat a gun safety.

Irresponsible people should not be allowed to own a handgun.

So would you agree that in this case had the lady not been killed that her guns should have been taken away from her?

[Tony T]

I disagree that some people shouldn't be allowed to own firearms. Should some people not be allowed to speak or write? They're both constitutionally protected natural rights, but the 1st is even deadlier than the 2nd.

Well, you know the standard answer to that. Freedom of speech does not protect someone from shouting "fire" in a crowded movie theater. Nor does it protect someone from using hate speech. There is a responsibility in exercising one's constitutionally protected freedom of speech.

Same goes for owning a firearm. That "right" comes with responsibilities — choose to ignore that responsibility and you should loose your right to own a handgun. (How is this even debatable?). This is not unreasonable when someone puts their children and strangers in harms way.

You say you disagree that some people shouldn't be allowed to own firearms, however, I know that you don't disagree in all cases (i.e. felons should not (they can't vote either), nor should mentally ill people be allowed to own guns.

[bcgav]

So little information in the article, the rest is all speculation, WAGs, and projection of personal opinions into the incident. Hence the thread drift....

No mention of whether or not the decedent was duly licensed, what type of firearm, etc.

[malcolm]

You did not read what I said. I said that it was irresponsible for an adult to leave a loaded handgun within reach of a 2 year old with the safety off.

I concede that the handgun in question might not have had a safety, however, a 2 year old should not be able to defeat a gun safety.

Irresponsible people should not be allowed to own a handgun.

So would you agree that in this case had the lady not been killed that her guns should have been taken away from her?

Tony I've not read the entire thread because it got tiresome from the first thread, but I would go so far as to say it's irresponsible to allow a 2 year old access to a gun loaded or otherwise, safety or not.

I was raised around guns and had my own from around age 6. We were always taught that they were not toys but tools for specific purposes. My parents did not lock up our guns and we all knew where they were, but we also knew better than to mess with them unless they were being prepped for use. None of ours were kept loaded. If not kept locked away they should at least be kept in a manner where a child can't access them.

[Grant McLean]

On an entirely different note, I always find it curious what kind of image the media
will pick to represent "cyclist" to accompany a news story about something
related to bicycles. You know what I mean, like a Lance Armstrong image
for a piece about commuting.

In this case, here's a photo they used of a nice vintage Rene Herse!
Good one, first coast Florida news!

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/local/florida/2015/03/13/florida-man-dies-after-gun-goes-during-bike-ride-cops/70261518/

[bluesea]

I believe in the right to CCW where the laws make it applicable. If I felt I needed to carry on a bicycle, I'd either change my routes or stop riding. Carrying that level of responsibility and particular sense of awareness, would for me take away too much from cycling. Ymmv

[Dead Man]

Well, you know the standard answer to that. Freedom of speech does not protect someone from shouting "fire" in a crowded movie theater. Nor does it protect someone from using hate speech. There is a responsibility in exercising one's constitutionally protected freedom of speech.

Same goes for owning a firearm. That "right" comes with responsibilities — choose to ignore that responsibility and you should loose your right to own a handgun. (How is this even debatable?). This is not unreasonable when someone puts their children and strangers in harms way.

You say you disagree that some people shouldn't be allowed to own firearms, however, I know that you don't disagree in all cases (i.e. felons should not (they can't vote either), nor should mentally ill people be allowed to own guns.

I didn't say "it should be legal to do stupid things with firearms."

Shouting "fire" in a crowded theater is a crime by itself. It's the act that is illegal, not the right, nor is the right restricted. For instance: If a theater is empty, and I shout "fire," and nothing happens.... guess what? No crime. Speech isn't illegal.

"Hate speech" is perfectly legal in America, bro. You must be Canadian.

[Stephen2014]

Same old thing, when people have guns someone innocent dies.

[Tony T]

I didn't say "it should be legal to do stupid things with firearms."

No you didn't, but you didn't think that someone who does stupid things with firearms should lose their right to own a gun either because its a constitutionally protected natural right.

Assuming doing stupid things with guns and irresponsible behavior are the same (sometimes they're not), what should the punishment be? My comment was that the punishment for leaving a loaded handgun in reach of a 2 year-old should be the loss of the privilege to own a firearm. What are your thoughts on the punishment for such an act of child endangerment?

[Tony T]

BTW, I also believe that people who text while driving should lose their license.

[Bruce K]

Tony, in the incident you keep referring to, (to my knowledge) it was never mentioned that the child actually got their hands on the gun, which was located in a concealed carry purse (it has a built in holster inside it) that was either in, or hung on, the shopping cart.

Still some unanswered questions on that one.

But to all participating here, again, after a very long and reasonably civil discussion the first time, this one just seems to be not going as well. This one seems to be getting fairly personal and one-on-one.

Getting close to a point of a need to move on.

BK

[Shortsocks]

Jesus,
This topic is still going on? Guess what? That guy is still dead. Kinda like this topic should be.

[Tony T]

Tony, in the incident you keep referring to, (to my knowledge) it was never mentioned that the child actually got their hands on the gun, which was located in a concealed carry purse (it has a built in holster inside it) that was either in, or hung on, the shopping cart.

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/31/the-inside-story-of-how-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/) reported that the child reached into her purse and found the gun: "An inquisitive 2-year-old boy reached into the purse, unzipped the compartment, found the gun and shot his mother in the head,” Rutledge said.”

I have to agree that this is going nowhere when there are handgun advocates that won't accept that there are irresponsible folks that should not be allowed to own a gun (and I'm not referring to this one incidence). It's really quite simple — show that you cannot be trusted with a weapon and lose your right to carry one.

(This discussion has been civil, not sure why you feel otherwise, it's just not going anywhere, so I'm out of this one :)).

.

[93legendti]

Interesting how the story changed from sheriff's statement to Post story...

http://kcsheriff.com/documents/AccidentalShootingatWalmartClaimsFemaleVictim.pdf


A 2 year old can unzip a zipper? Fascinating...

"Investigators have been trying to piece together how the toddler was able to remove the gun and pull the trigger."

[goonster]

its a constitutionally protected natural right.
SCOTUS only fully affirmed the individual RKBA in 2010. Some of us may not agree, but that is likely how it will be for a very, very long time. Those who do agree will never be swayed by any amount of collateral negligence, misadventure or heartbreak. Those are just the eggs you break to bake the freedom soufflé.

[goonster]

Not a cyclist. Just someone on a bike.
Phew! If they're not as cool as we are, no empathy required!

[oldpotatoe]

Interesting how the story changed from sheriff's statement to Post story...

http://kcsheriff.com/documents/AccidentalShootingatWalmartClaimsFemaleVictim.pdf


A 2 year old can unzip a zipper? Fascinating...

"Investigators have been trying to piece together how the toddler was able to remove the gun and pull the trigger."

My not even 2 year old grand daughter(b-day April 8th) has no problem at all with zippers.

[goonster]

Here's another case of Glock leg. (http://www.pottsmerc.com/general-news/20150320/conshohocken-police-detective-on-the-mend-after-accidentally-shooting-himself-in-the-leg) Just happened the other day, and this is local to me.

[Dead Man]

Here's another case of Glock leg. (http://www.pottsmerc.com/general-news/20150320/conshohocken-police-detective-on-the-mend-after-accidentally-shooting-himself-in-the-leg) Just happened the other day, and this is local to me.

Sucks. NDs are a bad label to get stuck with, in the martial professions.. NDs that cause personal injury are significantly worse. He's never gonna live that down.

This one ended this DEA agent's career...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0

"I'm the only one in this room, professional enough, that I know of, to carry this Glock .40..."

[parris]

We've played the dea video for years. The way the kids all react when he goes to show them the AR show's that sometimes kids have WAY more sense than some "professionals"...

[Stephen2014]

http://blog.bike-park-slovenia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Bike-history.jpg

Guns used to be legal in England!!!

[gdw]

There was a time when carrying a firearm on a bike wasn't controversial in the US and several manufacturers made rifles specifically for cyclists.

[Ken Robb]

I'm puzzled why Glocks are somehow prone to "going off". They literally cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled. The firing pin is completely at rest, under no tension, until the trigger pulls it back. Even if that weren't enough, there is a plunger inside the slide that prevents the firing pin from even being able to move forward unless the trigger is pulled.

For folks who have never seen a Glock up close you should know the trigger has a smaller slimmer lever inset into its leading edge where one's trigger finger makes contact. When the finger squeezes back on the trigger it first compresses this little lever which releases the safety system described above by Vinci. This does prevent a discharge unless the trigger is MOVED. Note I didn't say "pulled" because that implies an intended action and we are discussing accidents. Apparently there have been cases where something got inside the trigger guard and pulled the little lever and the trigger causing accidental discharges. Since many of these accidents happened during drawing/replacing in holsters my first guess would be the users had their finger on the trigger during these action which automatically releases the safety. Less likely but possible is a holster that allows some part like a flap or retaining strap to slip inside the trigger guard.

[Dead Man]

Over the years, I've seen a few different ways it can happen.

The Serpa holster has been involved in a few - it's a "retention holster," designed to prevent the gun from coming out accidentally or being drawn by someone else. The problem with the Serpa design is that the weapon is released by depressing a little button just outside of the trigger, with the trigger finger, and holding it pressed until the trigger guard has cleared the retention device. If you're not careful, during a swift draw, the user's trigger can slap the trigger. It's seen as a major design flaw by many, yet they're popular holsters.

(language warning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paxk_LPmdMI