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mg2ride
03-12-2015, 04:08 PM
Some of the recent doping threads have me wondering what the average cyclist thinks is happening in todaysís peloton.

I donít care if you opinion is based on fact, speculation or a simple desire for drama in your life. Iím just wondering how prevalant you think doping is amongst current professional road cyclist.

I have intentionally made the poll anonymous in hopes you donít feel any peer pressure.

giverdada
03-12-2015, 04:10 PM
What poll?

mg2ride
03-12-2015, 04:13 PM
What poll?

The software post the thread before you make the poll:eek:

slidey
03-12-2015, 04:21 PM
Here's my modified reply:

I couldn't care less if 100% of pro cyclists have knowingly taken PEDs in the last 12 months, I don't get inspired by any of it anyways.

mg2ride
03-12-2015, 05:50 PM
Here's my modified reply:

I almost couldn't care less if 100% of pro cyclists have knowingly taken PEDs in the last 12 months, I don't get inspired by any of it anyways.

Fixed it for you. You post in too many doping threads to claim full "couldn't" status.

slidey
03-12-2015, 06:01 PM
Fixed it for you. You post in too many doping threads to claim full "couldn't" status.

I used to care, used to have idealistic vision of seeing doping-free pro-cycling, used to get inspired by great performances.

I've since grown up - I honestly couldn't care less if the entire pro-tour calendar was scrapped today with no certainty of being reinstated. I don't watch/derive anything from it any more; akin to WWE (or whatever they call it nowadays) on bikes to me.

I'll consider watching pro-cycling only when I hear about the courses becoming much easier than they are now.

Tony T
03-12-2015, 07:03 PM
I'll consider watching pro-cycling only when I hear about the courses becoming much easier than they are now.

Sorta like watching baseball if they pull in the left field fence 50ft.

slidey
03-12-2015, 07:14 PM
Sorta like watching baseball if they pull in the left field fence 50ft.

That reference is lost on me, but I suppose you know what I mean.

Dead Man
03-12-2015, 07:27 PM
Here's my modified reply:

I couldn't care less if 100% of pro cyclists have knowingly taken PEDs in the last 12 months, I don't get inspired by any of it anyways.

I kind of care, but not really... either way, I DO still feel inspired by pro racing to a degree. I don't care about the men, but the tactics and athleticism is inspiring. I watch the way they pedal, how they ride, where they are looking, how they time maneuvers, how they use each other, etc... I'm not a pro, and I'll probably never even make Cat 2 (I've got 6 kids and run a construction company - how I find ANY time to ride is a miracle), but anyone can learn stuff watching pros ply their trade.

bluesea
03-12-2015, 07:33 PM
I've given up on dope in cycling, and have turned to more productive pursuits such as waiting for man to stop hating, killing, and raping.

Dead Man
03-12-2015, 07:35 PM
I've given up on dope in cycling, and have turned to more productive pursuits such as waiting for man to stop hating, killing, and raping.

You're going to be waiting for a long, long time.

bluesea
03-12-2015, 07:52 PM
You're going to be waiting for a long, long time.


Okay then, I will hope for man to stop fueling the hunt for exotic animal organs to be used as aphrodisiacs.

Dead Man
03-12-2015, 08:03 PM
Okay then, I will hope for man to stop fueling the hunt for exotic animal organs to be used as aphrodisiacs.

Perhaps you could flood the market with synthetic tiger penis

bluesea
03-12-2015, 08:10 PM
Perhaps you could flood the market with synthetic tiger penis


You clearly were not a believer in the age of Aquarius.

blessthismess
03-12-2015, 08:18 PM
Honestly I think that nearly all, if not all noteworthy professional cyclists have taken or done something that is either illegal, or pseudo legal in order to enhance their performance. What was taken or done, for how long, and to what degree all varies but I suspect that all of them have participated. It has been and is part of the culture and tradition of professional cycling. Watch the scenic rides on the tour, enjoy seeing people riding and racing bikes, its still a tough as sh** race with or without the drugs. But don't be naive in thinking that every one of them, past present and future isn't doing everything, or almost everything they think they can get away with to help them win.

bluesea
03-12-2015, 09:19 PM
Erik Zabel didn't inhale.

kasak
03-12-2015, 11:10 PM
PED can be pretty vague term. Where is the line when talking about caffeine? Reasonably sure 75%+ of pros and amateurs alike have had some in the last 12 months. I might even say 90% have done so and many are on some sort sick daily regiment. - just saying:fight:

rugbysecondrow
03-13-2015, 06:04 AM
I don't care as it relates to the sport of cycling. I find it interesting as the conversation of performance enhancing relates to so many other aspects of life. We have areas of our life where we find it completely acceptable to take chemicals to make us feel better, alter our mood, improve our focus, remove inhibitions. Not just pro athletes, movie stars, soccer moms, business men etc are part of the customer base which keeps steroids floating through out society. People get plastic surgery, hair plugs and other appearance altering procedures to make them more successful professionally. Parents have helped their kids get on adderal and other medication to help improve focus and do better on tests.

We are a society of people who look to gain and advantage to profit and perform better.

Sports is the venue we like to think is pure, maybe because so many other aspects of our society are not. Is that a realistic view though?

I am not saying that I condone cheating. If the rules of the contest are broken, then you don't deserve to be awarded the win. I just don't think doping is absolutely morally wrong as it is not incongruent with other performance/career/personal enhancements we not only allow but glorify in our society. For example, the reason why I don't find Lance a villain is because he cheated the rules of the sport, but in a level playing field, he did win. He beat other dopers and cheaters. He broke the rules, but he still outperformed the other riders.

Lastly, I don't think the public really cares. In real time, people cheered Barry Bonds, Lance, 325 # offensive linemen, 250# linebackers who run a 4.4 . The public enjoys the show more than the natural athlete feats. The public also enjoys feeling wronged, aghast...that is part of the entertainment as well.

I find it interesting where we draw lines in our society.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Grant McLean
03-13-2015, 07:12 AM
I find it interesting as the conversation of performance enhancing relates to so many other aspects of life. We have areas of our life where we find it completely acceptable to take chemicals to make us feel better, alter our mood, improve our focus, remove inhibitions. Not just pro athletes, movie stars, soccer moms, business men etc are part of the customer base which keeps steroids floating through out society.

For me, the doping in sports should not be conflated with having a glass of wine,
Or a movie star getting plastic surgury. I just don't see them as the same thing,
But that's me.



I find it interesting where we draw lines in our society.


Ultimately, for me, the problem I have with this doping stuff comes down to
the harm it does to the soul of the individual doing the doping. It makes me
sad that young athletes are in the position to choose leaving the sport they love
or creating a dark and icky place deep down inside them where they feel
In their own heart that they're doing something THEY know is wrong.
Personally, Tyler Hamilton's story resonates strongly with me. That kind of
secrect is spirit-crushing for most humans with a conscience. People can
say what they want to justify it, but you can't fool your own unconscious mind.

They know inside it's wrong, and will have to deal with it. I think it's worse
now for riders than ever, there really is no telling yourself "everyone" does it,
and it's not really wrong like back in the days before testing and it was just
part of the race preparation. I would find it very difficult to reconcile the fact
doping is a criminal offence with telling myself it's fine to cross the line.
I made mistakes in my life I deeply regretted and carried with me, and like
Tyler, felt it a crushing burden to carry. Getting out from under that pressure
was the greatest gift one could ever imagine. For me, in the place my life is
at, winning the tour by doping would ultimately have zero meaning. I'd have
to leave the sport I loved rather than betray my own values, and dignity.
Otherwise I'd be spending my millions of dollars in prize money to convince myself
I wasn't an awful person. That would suck. Haha.

-g

oldpotatoe
03-13-2015, 07:30 AM
Sorta like watching baseball if they pull in the left field fence 50ft.

For only certain hitters, that is..

Raffy
03-13-2015, 07:54 AM
I don't care as it relates to the sport of cycling. I find it interesting as the conversation of performance enhancing relates to so many other aspects of life. We have areas of our life where we find it completely acceptable to take chemicals to make us feel better, alter our mood, improve our focus, remove inhibitions. Not just pro athletes, movie stars, soccer moms, business men etc are part of the customer base which keeps steroids floating through out society. People get plastic surgery, hair plugs and other appearance altering procedures to make them more successful professionally. Parents have helped their kids get on adderal and other medication to help improve focus and do better on tests.

We are a society of people who look to gain and advantage to profit and perform better.

Sports is the venue we like to think is pure, maybe because so many other aspects of our society are not. Is that a realistic view though?

I am not saying that I condone cheating. If the rules of the contest are broken, then you don't deserve to be awarded the win. I just don't think doping is absolutely morally wrong as it is not incongruent with other performance/career/personal enhancements we not only allow but glorify in our society. For example, the reason why I don't find Lance a villain is because he cheated the rules of the sport, but in a level playing field, he did win. He beat other dopers and cheaters. He broke the rules, but he still outperformed the other riders.

Lastly, I don't think the public really cares. In real time, people cheered Barry Bonds, Lance, 325 # offensive linemen, 250# linebackers who run a 4.4 . The public enjoys the show more than the natural athlete feats. The public also enjoys feeling wronged, aghast...that is part of the entertainment as well.

I find it interesting where we draw lines in our society.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow, this is kinda similar to my feelings about PEDs/doping but not entirely the same. I'm more indifferent to doping (and other "off the field" sporting incidents such as the Ray Rice/Adrian Peterson incidents). To me, doping is not my fight to fight and not my job to regulate.

Also, I'm still in the camp of "you test positive, you're positive - you test negative, then you're negative". I understand some riders are passing tests dirty but I'd rather take the word of an actual scientific test (understanding these tests are far from perfect) over armchair qb's/pseudo-scientists/angry fans.

Quite frankly, I like watching races and whenever another report of doping comes up, it's doesn't really dampen my desire to follow the sport. Do I wish doping would be eradicated? Absolutely. But I'm not going to let things way outside of my control my love for the sport.

Likes2ridefar
03-13-2015, 07:54 AM
I'd rather it be like a pro-wrestling style event in that drugs are perfectly legal for anyone to take if they want to.

I think every single rider that is doing anything of significance at the pro tour level is taking drugs.

Likes2ridefar
03-13-2015, 07:55 AM
Also, I'm still in the camp of "you test positive, you're positive - you test negative, then you're negative". I understand some riders are passing tests dirty but I'd rather take the word of an actual scientific test (understanding these tests are far from perfect) over armchair qb's/pseudo-scientists/angry fans.



not some, almost all. it's not that they are dirty, but simply undetectable.

Lewis Moon
03-13-2015, 08:36 AM
Now, everyone who has any actual evidence beyond hearsay or anecdote, raise your hand.

I'm not trying to sugar coat this ugly problem, but I really hate the Salem Witch Trial tenor this issue produces among fans.

Do I suspect there's a high probability that a LOT of riders dope? Oh hell yes.

Do I think the structure of the pro sport rewards dopers? Yes.

Do I thing the UCI is doing anywhere near enough to address this issue? No. No no no.

The sport is hemorrhaging because of this problem. Riders are defensive and silent. Sponsors are dropping out. Fans have turned into cynical conspiracy theorists. Casual observers just assume that EVERY competitive cyclist dopes. Every one. People have joked about this with ME, a fat, middle aged chunk of low grade pack-fill.

Cookson needs to wade in with a chainsaw, not a scalpel. Fail a drug test? Find another job. If you have a UCI license and are paid to race, you should be available for a blood draw ANYTIME. No warning. The wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/sig-o needs to keep some modest jammies by the bed just in case. The finish of a race should look like a slaughterhouse: with a chute at the end leading to the doping trailer.

Maybe if we had real data, it wouldn't look so much like this:

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~lillsie/McCarthyism/Mcarthylist2.jpg

Are you now, or have you ever been, a doper?

Likes2ridefar
03-13-2015, 08:37 AM
i raced in it so witnessed it first hand. most blatant was first thing we were offered when we went to brazil for some racing was a big box of IV bags for infusions.

rugbysecondrow
03-13-2015, 08:48 AM
I understand and I agree at a personal level. At a professional level, many people use chemicals and medical procedures with the goal being greater professional success. Sports are a profession with huge money at stake.

Lets compare sports to on air television talent. If I am a woman, I enter this broadcast field knowing there are certain hurdles and norms to contend with. Agism, sexism, body image issues etc. Women don't grow old gracefully in broadcast journalism, they get replaced. They are forced by the industry standards to take measures to lengthen their career, some of which are medical or chemical, or they are nudged out. In cycling, they too enter a career where intense competition and likely doping is the norm. In one field, it is socially acceptable to be able to undergo alternative means to enhance your career and performance, in another it is not.

Sports are a profession, with a lot of money at stake. Lets take another high stakes industry, film. Arnold, Sly Stallone, Tyler Perry, and many others have either admitted or are under serious suspicion for using steroids. Being able to use PED to gain that competitive advantage in that industry is huge.

Again, this is not to excuse cheating. Rules are broken and in sports/games, the rules are considered infallible. What is interesting though is the death sentence type approach we take with PED in sports (which is very much a norm in sports) vs. other types of cheating ( which is outside the norm).

As fans, I think we attach our own view on sports (almost always from a purely amateur, perspective) to that which has become purely professional. In the NFL, they stop the game to show television commercials. They alter format of the the game for ratings. The NFL and the networks can alter their sport to enhance their ratings and performance, but if an athlete does that, he is suspended?

Anyway, I don't have a hardfast view, it just seems interesting how we view PED and medical enhancements which benefit us professionally.

Interesting conversation.



For me, the doping in sports should not be conflated with having a glass of wine,
Or a movie star getting plastic surgury. I just don't see them as the same thing,
But that's me.



Ultimately, for me, the problem I have with this doping stuff comes down to
the harm it does to the soul of the individual doing the doping. It makes me
sad that young athletes are in the position to choose leaving the sport they love
or creating a dark and icky place deep down inside them where they feel
In their own heart that they're doing something THEY know is wrong.
Personally, Tyler Hamilton's story resonates strongly with me. That kind of
secrect is spirit-crushing for most humans with a conscience. People can
say what they want to justify it, but you can't fool your own unconscious mind.

They know inside it's wrong, and will have to deal with it. I think it's worse
now for riders than ever, there really is no telling yourself "everyone" does it,
and it's not really wrong like back in the days before testing and it was just
part of the race preparation. I would find it very difficult to reconcile the fact
doping is a criminal offence with telling myself it's fine to cross the line.
I made mistakes in my life I deeply regretted and carried with me, and like
Tyler, felt it a crushing burden to carry. Getting out from under that pressure
was the greatest gift one could ever imagine. For me, in the place my life is
at, winning the tour by doping would ultimately have zero meaning. I'd have
to leave the sport I loved rather than betray my own values, and dignity.
Otherwise I'd be spending my millions of dollars in prize money to convince myself
I wasn't an awful person. That would suck. Haha.

-g

Seramount
03-13-2015, 08:57 AM
sports are for entertainment. if performances are chemically-enhanced, it's still just entertainment.

if 'cheating' is going to be addressed, I'd rather we clean up what happens in areas that actually matter.

the world is awash in corruption, what some dudes on bikes do is pretty inconsequential.

zap
03-13-2015, 09:01 AM
I don't care as it relates to the sport of cycling. I find it interesting as the conversation of performance enhancing relates to so many other aspects of life. We have areas of our life where we find it completely acceptable to take chemicals to make us feel better, alter our mood, improve our focus, remove inhibitions. Not just pro athletes, movie stars, soccer moms, business men etc are part of the customer base which keeps steroids floating through out society. People get plastic surgery, hair plugs and other appearance altering procedures to make them more successful professionally. Parents have helped their kids get on adderal and other medication to help improve focus and do better on tests.

We are a society of people who look to gain and advantage to profit and perform better.

Sports is the venue we like to think is pure, maybe because so many other aspects of our society are not. Is that a realistic view though?

I am not saying that I condone cheating. If the rules of the contest are broken, then you don't deserve to be awarded the win. I just don't think doping is absolutely morally wrong as it is not incongruent with other performance/career/personal enhancements we not only allow but glorify in our society. For example, the reason why I don't find Lance a villain is because he cheated the rules of the sport, but in a level playing field, he did win. He beat other dopers and cheaters. He broke the rules, but he still outperformed the other riders.

Lastly, I don't think the public really cares. In real time, people cheered Barry Bonds, Lance, 325 # offensive linemen, 250# linebackers who run a 4.4 . The public enjoys the show more than the natural athlete feats. The public also enjoys feeling wronged, aghast...that is part of the entertainment as well.

I find it interesting where we draw lines in our society.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I doubt enhancing programs are equal.

Black Dog
03-13-2015, 09:05 AM
Every other sport that has been able to avoid attention about doping should be sending money to cycling for taking the brunt of the attention and media focus. This is killing the sport from a sponsorship perspective. It would be nice to see soccer or any other sport for that matter get its hands dirty trying to deal with doping. I still find amazing that only the cyclists names have been released from Operation Puerto, 9 years later etc.... All of the sport businesses have this issue to deal with.

rugbysecondrow
03-13-2015, 09:10 AM
I doubt enhancing programs are equal.

Well, that isn't really the point, is it? In a field of people cheating the rules, he still beat them all.

I like this Wiki page, it does a great job of laying out the situation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

The number of winners of the TDF who have been sanctioned for PED cheating is huge. This was a sport of performance cheaters well before Armstrong.



The sport is hemorrhaging because of this problem. Riders are defensive and silent. Sponsors are dropping out. Fans have turned into cynical conspiracy theorists. Casual observers just assume that EVERY competitive cyclist dopes. Every one. People have joked about this with ME, a fat, middle aged chunk of low grade pack-fill.



I think the sport of cycling is being relegated back to where it was pre-Lance...meaning nobody cares. His wins completely inflated the sport in the US, it was huge for sponsors, fans, ratings etc...whether people like it or not, Lance and his cheating was the best thing that has ever happened to cycling in the US. Bike sales soared, rider awarness increased, the bike culture in the USA really started to take off as middle and upper class men and women alike started taking to the roads. Nike, Oakley and other sponsors ALL made money on Lance. Without Lance, I don't think you see nearly the explosion of recreational, commuter and sport cyclists in the USA nor the changes we are seeing in cycling policy and awareness. I am one of the fans who knows about cycling because of Lance...he was a reason to watch the TDF. He was the reason to follow racing.

Now, cycling might as well be Curling on TV, and I suspect more people would watch Curling.

soulspinner
03-13-2015, 01:14 PM
sports are for entertainment. if performances are chemically-enhanced, it's still just entertainment.

if 'cheating' is going to be addressed, I'd rather we clean up what happens in areas that actually matter.

the world is awash in corruption, what some dudes on bikes do is pretty inconsequential.

Perspective.......

kasak
03-13-2015, 01:28 PM
List of doping cases in cycling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling#1886):First off the problem goes back aways. 1886 is the first one on that list and death by overdose is pretty crude drug test. Doesn't bode well for the pure old days.

Then took a general look at was EPO. Isn't wikipedia fun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin#History). At the bottom there is the history of when it was proposed and developed. Looks like the knowledge and ability to produce the drug beyond just lab use came to a head between 1985 and 1987. There is a claim that the first rider to be banned for EPO was in 1988 (*better citation would really help here as there was no mention of who that might have been). If true, I find that fairly impressive. A year of lag between a drug being first produced and being banned isn't exactly an easy task to stay on top of when there might be hundreds to filter though. I mean the FDA didn't get around to approving it until 1989 and other anti doping agencies didn't seem to get into the full swing of banning it until 1990. Not bad to bad for cycling there. Yes, the olympic committee got on the ball a little quicker and there may have been 18 epo/cyclist related deaths but this is a seriously hard problem to manage much less solve. I'm over generalizing a bit but this is not far from protecting people against themselves when everyone involved has some sort of financial incentive or restriction to look the other way all while the number of possible 'attacks' are coming at an increasing rate. Thats more than depressing, it just isn't going to work.

How about we try something else? Back of the napkin thought here but how about a class system that is more Le Mans than F1. No PES (what we are shooting for now), some PES (whitelisted substances like caffeine and those that are safe in known quantity) and sponsored PES / personalized medicine. That last one needs a bit more refining but the idea is to get the drug companies involved and have only those riders that are willing to be alpha/beta testers without the whole peloton be cast under suspension. Ideally creating a public and data driven test bed for drug companies beyond the chronically ill. The drug companies would have to be liable for negative side effects to some agreed on minimum in exchange for benefit of sponsorship / promotion. All clases get a drug test before and after a race and at random points during training. Fines for not disclosing what PES a riders is using, forfeit any recent winnings, and probably lose some sponsors when bumped into a more appropriate class. Yes, no or something else?

pitonpat
03-13-2015, 01:52 PM
It's all an enjoyable spectacle. I watch the coverage available to me on cable TV (Mostly the Tour de France & a few of the Spring events) for the overall effect; the scenery, the French chateaux, the interaction between cyclists, yes- the crashes too!, and barely glance at what frame they're riding or helmet they're wearing...

Let 'em all dope to the gills if they want to. I don't think pro cycling has ever been PED free. Hell, they used to think coffee & cigarettes were beneficial. It'll still be an enjoyable spectacle and then when the race is over, I'll head on out to clock a few miles on my outdated titanium level-toptube bike and pretend I'm heading up Alpe d'Huez for a little glory!

45K10
03-13-2015, 02:16 PM
Even Cellist dope
Good movie about Doping:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1151309/

whforrest
03-16-2015, 08:55 PM
I'm a cat 2 thinking about racing again next year, but concerned to hear how many master cyclist doping in the local races. Not confirmed but I think these reports are grounded in reality. I couldn't imagine doping so you can win a $50 dollar prime or for a placing. So there is some real affect and I hope usa cycling attacks this with a vengeance


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whforrest
03-16-2015, 09:01 PM
But I knew lance was doping way before he got caught and it did make me so bitter. I am happy he got caught, but for those of us who have been with this sport since the mid 80's it was a tough pill to swallow. I did believe in unicorns and ferries. I still love everything about cycling but look at epic performances with a filter. Boonen and cancellara are the last few who interest me. I'm sure the next group will continue to emerge


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mg2ride
03-16-2015, 11:16 PM
But I knew lance was doping way before he got caught and it did make me so bitter. I am happy he got caught, but for those of us who have been with this sport since the mid 80's it was a tough pill to swallow. I did believe in unicorns and ferries. I still love everything about cycling but look at epic performances with a filter. Boonen and cancellara are the last few who interest me. I'm sure the next group will continue to emerge


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When it comes "human performance" unicorns and ferries do exist. Don't for a second believe that what you saw was about doping. It was about effort. From the 1st to finish to the last. It was the effort that inspired you, not the drugs.

Stephen2014
03-17-2015, 06:24 AM
Has anyone from the UCI been punished? They allowed doping to happen. Cookson said recently that there will be no more covering up or turning a blind eye. At least they finally admitted their guilt. McQuaid cheated as a cyclist and they let him have the Fuhrership of the UCI!!!!!!!!! Shame he wasn't raided by the police and dragged away.