Does my Serotta fit right?

[avitar]

Last summer I had a Concours CS made for me. I got it near the end of the summer and still have not logged too many miles on it. I am concerned if it really fits right.
I am 42 y.o. 5' 10" 180lb. with a bulging L4-L5. The owner of the shop where I bought my bike spent a few hours fitting me, and having me do some flexibility tests. I only really started riding the summer before. My other bike is a Size M - Mongoose Bosberg, which is a very stiff, compact alum. frame. It always seemed a bit cramped, especially compared to my Concours which seems more roomy in the cockpit.
Now that I have the Concours, I am thinking of getting rid of the Mongoose and using the Ultegra + Ksyrium Elite to build another bike. We have a house at the beach and I want to have one bike for teh city and one for the beach.
In thinking about another frame I wrote a post on roadbikereview.com and received what seemed like some very well informed replys. someone was questioning why my bike was built with a 75deg STA and I could not really answer, but I thought it was cause I am getting older, am a bit stiff in the hips, will never race and that , with the bigger HT would be more comfortable.
the link to that thread is;
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=2526


I am training with TNT for my first century May 16th and today did a 40 mile training ride. maybe because I am really questionnig the fit now, I noticed I am pretty upright, maybe more than I need to be. My Concours rides great, I love the build, finish and components I choose (Record/Chorus mix, Kysrium SSL's, Easton Bars and post), but on several big downhills on the ride to Piermont I did not feel too secure. I have never gone over 36 and today was riding on a small shoulder, so maybe it was just that and the bad road and the snow on encroaching from the shoulder.
I cannot read the entire build sheet but what I can is here;

Seat Tube Length 54
STA 75 deg, Horizontal TT length 55, TT slope 4.5deg
Head tube angle 73deg, Head Tube Length 17.55cm
TT C to HT Top 4.24
Lower stack height 1.30cm (what is that?)
added HT extension 1.5

If it turns out that this Concours is not really built right for me, do I have any recourse? I really do like the LBS I went to. They are great people and I feel a bit bad second guessing, but after the feecbackI have received I am questioning it ,,,,,,,,,,

If you have the time, please read that thread down where C40 is really commenting specifically about my fit.

thanks.....

[dbrk]

I've read through this thread on RBR and find this C40 fellow be be pretty savvy, I must say. He understands Colnagos well and Lord knows I've spent a heck of a lot of time pondering the peculiar solutions proposed by Ernesto. Colnagos are really not a good measure of comparison with most other stock bikes (he gets this and makes the proper comparisons); this doesn't mean Colnagos offer a "poor" solution by any means, only that they are significantly different than most in seat/head tube angles, top tube lengths, and they have really short headtubes. That Michigan article is just nonsense and not worth commenting on further. Colnagos are pure race bikes and that's a fine thing but is that what you really need? I think not with those disks and your needs.

As for your bike...well, I shouldn't say this, should I? But that seat tube angle is plain goofy. It just can't be right. If we just look at your saddle height and bar height needs then a 57 or even a 58 is more than likely a good starting point. On a bike that much larger a rather normal 73d seat tube angle would likely provide the set back to put you either over or just behind the spindle. Or even more relaxed, like 72d. That the saddle is smacked all the way back with that steep seat tube is just not right, especially if you have the knee to spindle that you like (some like to be on the spindle, some behind, see the famous Bontrager article on the Myth of KOPS for a fine tuned understanding). Of course I say all of this without looking at you on the bike. But honestly the numbers just seem wrong on this bike. You don't seem to have any peculiar fit needs other than a more comfortable saddle to bar drop than most hardcore race bikes provide. In that respect, I'd steer away from Colnagos which are meant to be ridden with more saddle/bar than meets your needs, i.e., they are more aggressive bikes from the get go. But 75d in the seat tube? Really? Seat all the way back with that Easton post? The 55cm top tube would be longer on a bigger bike because as you come up the bars come back (that's easy to figure). I'd wager you could ride a 58st with a 56.5tt and an 11stem and find yourself in the middle of the rails and certainly tall enough in the front, all this without getting a sloper. I get to these numbers by reckoning that as the headtube gets longer and the bars come up you need to make the top tube longer to keep a sweet spot in the cockpit.

Well, that's a lot of opinion based on not seeing you but just reading through your size and the bike.

dbrk

[Bruce H.]

Dear Avitar,
I will not comment on your question since I am no where near the experts on this site. I will however offer you a pretty good piece of advice based upon these and previous posts you have made.
Please cancel your ride in May and have the Leukemia Society hold your fundraising until you are ready. Nobody with the Society will give you grief. Let your supporters know you found out you need more time to prepare.
It is difficult enough to ride a century when all is perfect, but you really are rushing into this unprepared. There are other rides in the fall and winter. Talk to your chapter coaches.
In the end you will have a great experience.
Just my 2 cents worth
Bruce H.

[avitar]

DBRK, thank you for your response. Yes C40 like you seems right on. I would have never bought my Serotta without this forum and all the informative posts I read in the months I took deciding which bike to buy. I was impressed with how much in pursuit of the perfect fit and ride I found as a common thread and what I thought was the philosophy behind Serotta.

If my STA really is not right for me, what should I do? For how much I spent to have this bike custom made for me, it is a disapointment if it is not all it should (and I paid for it) to be.

What is Serotta's policy about problems such as this? Will they remake my frame? Maybe I should take my bike to another Serotta dealer for them to really check (I would gladly pay them for a bike fit to find out).

Bruce,.... thanks for your concern, but this post is not at all about my preparedness for riding a century. I will be able to ride the century, I have made that committment. I have 2 months to be ready. I did 40 miles today with a smile... (ok my legs we a bit sore after, but only cause I rode with the fastest group home, which has alot of uphill) I will post the outcome.

[DWF]

Originally posted by avitar

If my STA really is not right for me, what should I do? For how much I spent to have this bike custom made for me, it is a disapointment if it is not all it should (and I paid for it) to be.


Here's some friendly advice: before you bail on the bike and the fit that was performed for you BY SOMEONE WHO'S ACTUALLY SEEN YOU ON A BIKE, for the hipshooting advice of an internet forum, take your ride to another Serotta dealer and have them evaluate your fit on the bike. No offense to this group or any other, but these friendly folks are giving "the bike is wrong" advice with very little background. Again, I'd advise to take your rig to another Serotta dealer so they won't be inclined to say, "yep, it's all wrong, buy this Cubic Zirconium bike we have here".

For the record, a 75-degree STA is not the norm, but that doesn't make it wrong either. KOPS is a guideline, a starting point, but some folks with short femurs do require a steeper STA than the mainstream. It is also quite possible your fitter gave you a steeper STA to open up your hip angle and reduce pressure on your back. Your saddle position and your seatpost contradict this, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen folks build up bikes with components not in line with fit recommendations.

Again, before you get to distraught over your expensive custom being wrong for you, get in front of a sympathetic someone who can put some experienced eyes on your situation.

[jerk]

something doesn't seem right.....the jerk thinks once you set your post to where you need it the effective reach of the bike is going to be super long.....the horizontal dimension suggests that the effective top tube once you have your seat posistioned far enough back is closer to 57 or 58....that being said...if you do have extremely limited flexibility it is possible that your fitter was working with what he had and was eesentially using the steeper seat angle to rotate you around the bottom bracket...enabling the handlebars to get within range in terms of height and put enough weight on the front wheel for the bike to handle decently....basically by rotating the rider aorund the bb the hip angle can either be further oppened or the hip angle can be maintained and the bars can come down....this is why time trialists ride on the nose of the saddle on steeper than average bikes....the jerk thinks doing this type of thing on a road bike is really drastic...what is your saddle to stem height relative? what is your reach? how (in)flexible are you? anyway, the jerk doesn't really know enough about your situation to comment any further...i'll check the rbreview forum when i get a chance.

jerk

[Andreu]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DWF
[B]Here's some friendly advice: before you bail on the bike and the fit that was performed for you BY SOMEONE WHO'S ACTUALLY SEEN YOU ON A BIKE, for the hipshooting advice of an internet .....


I agree with this quote....you need to be seen on your bike by someone who can give an 'honest' and 'independent' opinion. There are also some tricks you can play with stem length, saddle position etc to make things better. The bottom line is doing 40 or 100 miles on a bike is going to hurt if you are pushing it a little...so don't get confused between "uncomfortable" because the bike is ****e with "uncomfortable" because you need a couple of months training.
Good luck and keep going for it.
A:banana:

[Peter]

Avitar has to trust the fitter and the Serotta Fit System. The only reason he feels oddly on the Serotta is because he's so used to the Mongoose that his body has become accustomed to it, and he's switching between the two so differences are immediately apparent.

Give the Serotta 5-10k miles THEN you can complain. And stop looking at the specs. Waterford specs relatively steep seat tube angles versus the industry; stroll over to their web site and read their rant on why. It doesn't seem to stop them from selling lots of frames.

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/data/indexnet.htm

Even I'll admit the numbers aren't standard, but then if all custom frames had standard specs then no one would need a custom frame, would they?

You need more riding experience before you can condemn your Serotta, and from your post I detect you don't have enough miles/long miles/fast miles/Serotta miles. Sleep with that bike for a year and I'll bet you'll change your mind.

[Smiley]

As people here have noted to get used to a new position on a bike because of all the memory that you have built up using your old bike. If you question your bike fit then go to another expert and have them set you up on your bike and re-check your KOP for starters as this is the starting point that your bike was designed for . I have built a 62 cm frame witha 74.5 STA so judging your fit by others whom have never seen you ride a bike is not fair to you or the LBS that fit you.

[djg]

built with a 75 degree seat tube angle and I'm also unclear as to how making the STA steeper could have been aimed at addressing your needs as you describe them.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of C40's advice on the rbr site. It's plain that he's brushed up on his jr. high trig and that he has all but memorized the Colnago geometry chart. At the same time, he seems to have a very narrow picture of proper bike fit that's part objective calculation, part a model of what he likes to ride, and part a model of how he likes bikes to look (x cm of seatpost showing, etc.). I think that good bike fit inevitably accounts for the rider him or herself, and should involve seeing you on the bike. Still, I think he raised some reasonable points with you.

I'm not sure why dbrk thinks that Colnagos have especially short head tubes--I don't think they do relative to most road racing bikes (I've had shorter head tubes than the one on my CT1, that's for sure), not that contemporary road racing bikes should necessarily be your standard. Certainly, there are some longer options in stock road bikes as well as custom (and semi-custom) variations available.

So: it seems that there are a couple of questions on the table here. First, above all--what setup would be ideal for you? Second, can the concours be made to approximate that setup? Third, why the heck did the LBS put you on that bike and, if it cannot be made acceptable, what should they do about it? Add your own questions if you like.

As to fit: I'm not a guru in person and I don't want to play one on the internet. So go get some help from somebody knowledgeable who will see you in person. But it seems to me that you start with the saddle and go from there. Get your saddle where you like it first (KOPS? A couple cm back?--either you know, or you might start with KOPS and experiment incrementally; radical changes just highlight difference more than anything else). Second, once you have your saddle right, where do you want the bars--how far out and how far down would be comfortable for you? This, too, might want some experimentation. Something like a look adjustable stem might be helpful in that regard, even though it's not all that cheap. This experimentation with saddle position and bar position isn't likely to be done well in one session or even one week--if your position isn't good now, certain things might seem like immediate improvements, but it will take a while and some miles before you know what you really want.

Once we've established a triangle of butt, feet, and hands, we have the questions (a) can your concours, with some seatpost, bars, and stem, acommodate that triangle, and (b) if it does, are you well balanced on the bike. Off-hand, I have to wonder, but frankly I don't know. To the extent that you're considering a different frame altogether, additional questions could be asked.

Good luck.

[93legendti]

Originally posted by avitar
Last summer I had a Concours CS made for me. I got it near the end of the summer and still have not logged too many miles on it. I am concerned if it really fits right.
I am 42 y.o. 5' 10" 180lb. with a bulging L4-L5. The owner of the shop where I bought my bike spent a few hours fitting me, and having me do some flexibility tests. I only really started riding the summer before. My other bike is a Size M - Mongoose Bosberg, which is a very stiff, compact alum. frame. It always seemed a bit cramped, especially compared to my Concours which seems more roomy in the cockpit.
Now that I have the Concours, I am thinking of getting rid of the Mongoose and using the Ultegra + Ksyrium Elite to build another bike. We have a house at the beach and I want to have one bike for teh city and one for the beach.
In thinking about another frame I wrote a post on roadbikereview.com and received what seemed like some very well informed replys. someone was questioning why my bike was built with a 75deg STA and I could not really answer, but I thought it was cause I am getting older, am a bit stiff in the hips, will never race and that , with the bigger HT would be more comfortable.
the link to that thread is;
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=2526


I am training with TNT for my first century May 16th and today did a 40 mile training ride. maybe because I am really questionnig the fit now, I noticed I am pretty upright, maybe more than I need to be. My Concours rides great, I love the build, finish and components I choose (Record/Chorus mix, Kysrium SSL's, Easton Bars and post), but on several big downhills on the ride to Piermont I did not feel too secure. I have never gone over 36 and today was riding on a small shoulder, so maybe it was just that and the bad road and the snow on encroaching from the shoulder.
I cannot read the entire build sheet but what I can is here;

Seat Tube Length 54
STA 75 deg, Horizontal TT length 55, TT slope 4.5deg
Head tube angle 73deg, Head Tube Length 17.55cm
TT C to HT Top 4.24
Lower stack height 1.30cm (what is that?)
added HT extension 1.5

If it turns out that this Concours is not really built right for me, do I have any recourse? I really do like the LBS I went to. They are great people and I feel a bit bad second guessing, but after the feecbackI have received I am questioning it ,,,,,,,,,,

If you have the time, please read that thread down where C40 is really commenting specifically about my fit.

thanks.....

You know, without knowing your body measuements, I am not sure how any fit expert could determine whether the bike is right for you or not. The point of a custom bike is that it is made to fit only you. Judging a custom bike by "industry" guidelines for bikes made for a lot of people seems to be comparing apples and oranges. If you have a back problem, being upright is usually good...at least it is for my herniated disk. I have a custom Strong, and it is built to accomodate my long femurs, my back issues and my very short torso. It is not for everyone, but it is definitely for me. I'd say give it some time. Comfort/stability descending on a bike could be as simple as scooting back your butt a little and keeping you upper body low on turns.

[avitar]

Thank you all for your input. Next weekend I will take my bike to a different Serotta Certified bike shop, who I have known for a long time. I will let you know how it turns out.

:crap: