HED Belgium+ (25) vesus Pacenti SL25

[oldfatslow]

I'm going to build up a new set of all-purpose wheels.

Narrowed the rim choice down to two and wanted to solicit feedback.

What say you?

[oldpotatoe]

I'm going to build up a new set of all-purpose wheels.

Narrowed the rim choice down to two and wanted to solicit feedback.

What say you?

I'm going to add H+Son Archtype to that list for ya...but if it's between the two, I'd choose the Pacenti. For what it is and where it's made, I think HED are priced with consideration of the decal.

I have built all 3 and they all build fine. If between the 3, I'd still pick Pacenti.

[Cicli]

I have both the Hed's and Pacentis in 23mm version. Both are very nice hoops and you will like them. That said, I think the Pacentis represent a better bang for the buck.
Plus you are supporting a Paceline regular. That is nice.

[guido]

Decal pricing or not, I really like my Hed Belgium+ rims. They built up very nice and are running straight and true for the 1500 miles of lovely New England potholes I have on mine. Work nicely with Compass Stampede Pass 32mm tires...

[Lewis Moon]

I've owned/built three sets of the Archetypes. Love them. I'd have no qualms recommending the hard ano Archetypes to a good friend.

[Kirk Pacenti]

PM sent.

[echelon_john]

All three great. HED, Archetypes, Pacenti.

We live in a golden age of rim choices.

[oldpotatoe]

All three great. HED, Archetypes, Pacenti.

We live in a golden age of rim choices.

Sorta

Ambrosio, FIR, Fiamme, decent Mavic, Campagnolo, Corima...some who are outta the decent rim biz. At least in the US. If they hung around, maybe they would be making a Archtype-type, rim.

Still a real paucity of aluminum tubular rim choices also. I would love to see DT make a tubie rim. Not gonna happen tho.

BUT DT, Pacenti, H+Son, latest Velocity, CXP-33 Mavic, even HED, good rims.

[tv_vt]

Sorta

Ambrosio, FIR, Fiamme, decent Mavic, Campagnolo, Corima...some who are outta the decent rim biz. At least in the US. If they hung around, maybe they would be making a Archtype-type, rim.

Still a real paucity of aluminum tubular rim choices also. I would love to see DT make a tubie rim. Not gonna happen tho.

BUT DT, Pacenti, H+Son, latest Velocity, CXP-33 Mavic, even HED, good rims.

Got a set of newly built Ambrosio Excelliights just waiting for spring to come and the roads to clear up a bit. Wasn't too impressed with Belgium or DT440's. They're OK, but didn't knock my socks off.

[toastedbread]

I have both the Hed's and Pacentis in 23mm version. Both are very nice hoops and you will like them. That said, I think the Pacentis represent a better bang for the buck.


Pretty much this, having owned both (also in 23mm) you can't really go wrong. I'm really fond of my Belgiums, especially since I got them for a fantastic price with a powertap built in.

[teleguy57]

Sorta

Ambrosio, FIR, Fiamme, decent Mavic, Campagnolo, Corima...some who are outta the decent rim biz. At least in the US. If they hung around, maybe they would be making a Archtype-type, rim.

Still a real paucity of aluminum tubular rim choices also. I would love to see DT make a tubie rim. Not gonna happen tho.

BUT DT, Pacenti, H+Son, latest Velocity, CXP-33 Mavic, even HED, good rims.

So true. Would also love to see an Archetype in tubular. The Belgium tubulars are nice, but pricey.

[Tony]

Both are good rims. If you can get the rims I would go with the wider Hed +.

[kevinvc]

I've been going through the same selection process. I narrowed my choices down to either the Archetypes or Pacentis. I am currently leaning towards the Archetypes for pricing reasons alone since the performance seems to be very similar. There's a really good rim review here (https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/reviews-and-testing/alloy-rim-roundup/).

What hub are you using? After much deliberation I finally settled on the Hope Mono RS.

[makoti]

Never ridden the HED's, so can't compare for you but I have two sets of Pacentis & really like this rim. One set was built for me & the other I did. Very nice.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

If you need a 20-hole rim, you can forget about the HED. Not available in that drilling.

[John H.]

I would only get the Plus or Pacenti for a tubeless scenario.
They are both slightly oversize and it makes mounting clinchers a royal pain in the **s. Even at home with a bead jack. (But this makes tubeless tires stay secure).
This makes a flat on the road terrible-
I love my Pacenti SL23 for tubeless on my cross bike- I loathed them on my rain bike. So much so that I rebuilt the hubs onto a set of 23mm Hed rims.
Now I can change my rain bike tries easily.
None of this is meant to disparage Kirk or Pancenti rims- the rims are nice.
I just hate them with standard clinchers.

[denapista]

Pacenti SL23/25 hoops are so good. I'm a proverbial wheel whore and I've ridden and bought so many wheelsets. Hands down my best set that I regret selling, would be WIT11 hubs laces to Pacenti SL23. So good. I recently had a set of Extralite hubs laced to the new Kinlin Wide rims, but my first choice was Pacenti for sure. Just wanted to try something new I guess. A bunch of my friends ride HED hoops and they're nice but I'd choose Pacenti all day over them. The Pacenti just have an overbearing look of quality to them. A pretty rim to look at, and they ride so nice.

[weiwentg]

I would only get the Plus or Pacenti for a tubeless scenario.
They are both slightly oversize and it makes mounting clinchers a royal pain in the **s. Even at home with a bead jack. (But this makes tubeless tires stay secure).
This makes a flat on the road terrible-
I love my Pacenti SL23 for tubeless on my cross bike- I loathed them on my rain bike. So much so that I rebuilt the hubs onto a set of 23mm Hed rims.
Now I can change my rain bike tries easily.
None of this is meant to disparage Kirk or Pancenti rims- the rims are nice.
I just hate them with standard clinchers.

Remounting tires on an SL23 is difficult but not insurmountable. I use a tire lever and take care not to pinch the tube.

[Cicli]

I just hate them with standard clinchers.

Really,
What tire and rim tape? I have not had any issues with Contis or Schwalbe Ones. I am using Pacentis blue rim tape.
My Belgiums are tubulars so I can't compare.

[John H.]

Stans rim tape and Michelin Pro 4 endurance.

Really,
What tire and rim tape? I have not had any issues with Contis or Schwalbe Ones. I am using Pacentis blue rim tape.
My Belgiums are tubulars so I can't compare.

[Cicli]

Stans rim tape and Michelin Pro 4 endurance.

Weird. I figured Contis would be tighter than Michelins. Hmmmmmmm.

[John H.]

Michelin may be tighter than others- I have since switched to Conti myself.
The Michelins were tire lever breakers- In fact I suggest wide levers like the Maxxis tire levers.
With Conti/23mm Hed Belgium I can mount tires by hand- no levers required.

I do not mention any of this to talk anyone out of Plus/Pacenti- just to make sure they have thought through their needs in terms of field serviceability, tire selection, etc.

Weird. I figured Contis would be tighter than Michelins. Hmmmmmmm.

[berserk87]

Sorta

Ambrosio, FIR, Fiamme, decent Mavic, Campagnolo, Corima...some who are outta the decent rim biz. At least in the US. If they hung around, maybe they would be making a Archtype-type, rim.



I have had all of the above except Fiamme and Corima, on wheelsets in the past.

A friend was asking me about Ambrosio rims the other day - told him that I didn't know if they were still in business. I guess not. Ambrosio and FIR made some really nice rims (and nice looking too).

I had a set of high-flanged Campy hubs laced to Campy rims on track wheels at one time. They were so shiny that I was almost afraid to ride them.

I still think that the best Mavic rim that I have used is the old CXP 33. I have a set of red anodized CXP 33's laced to King hubs that I have beaten to poo out of - raced, trained, ridden in the rain and crud, hit potholes, manhole covers, yada yada yada).

I recommended a set of Pacenti pre-built wheels to a friend recently and she bought them but has not ridden them yet (she does not ride during the cold weather outdoors). I can't wait to give them the once-over. I've heard good things.

[RedRider]

There are now a lot of good choices for rims. While rims are a significant part of the wheel, the hub, spoke count and lacing pattern as well as the wheelbuilder play as much a role in the total ride quality.
The OP asked about HED vs Pacenti...

- HED; great quality and very good customer service. I've used them personally and have sold them to very satisfied customers for many years.
- Pacenti; I have had less personal experience but they have a very strong reputation for quality and customer satisfaction. BUY PACENTI. They are sponsors of this forum and Kirk is a frequent contributor. He is very accessible and that's the best type of customer service. Kinda like buying local...

[guido]

I mount the Compass tires on the Belgium+ rims without tools (or troubles). For strips I used Stan's tape.

[Hermes_Alex]

Any tubeless-ready wheel is going to be difficult to put tires on by virtue of the changes (increased diameter under the bead hooks) one has to make to the tire bed to facilitate tubeless tire use. It's common to the SL23, the Velocity A23 et al. Most tires can still be conquered with a strong pair of thumbs.

[bcm119]

The trick to mounting tires on tubeless ready rims is to seat the bead in the center of the rim bed until you get the bead on all around. If you leave the bead up on the shoulders of the rim bed it will be nearly impossible to snap the last few inches of bead over the lip of the rim. With the bead in the center, I can mount Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 on my SL23 rims with no levers.

[Fatty]

Not what the OP inquired about , but, has anyone tried these out yet?

http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/208.htm

http://cdn3.volusion.com/zuzmr.cyhxj/v/vspfiles/photos/C31-1.jpg

[pjmsj21]

I also have both the Hed's and the Pacenti's and find it difficult to notice a lot of difference between the two from a ride perspective when you take tires out of the equation.

That being said you can ride tubeless on the Pacenti's which is in my mind a big plus. I know that road tubeless get a bit of a bad rap on this forum but I LOVE my Schwalbe One 25's on my Pacenti's and for this reason alone would prefer the Pacenti's.

[Kirk Pacenti]

The trick to mounting tires on tubeless ready rims is to seat the bead in the center of the rim bed until you get the bead on all around. If you leave the bead up on the shoulders of the rim bed it will be nearly impossible to snap the last few inches of bead over the lip of the rim. With the bead in the center, I can mount Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 on my SL23 rims with no levers.

^^^ This.

In our experience, most who've expressed difficulty are not installing tires with the proper technique. I would only add to bcm119's comments, that you must start mounting the second side of the tire, opposite the valve stem. The other day I walked someone through the process and discovered they were using Velox cloth tape and had started at the valve stem. This will almost certainly make tire installation impossible.

For the record, unlike some other tubeless compatible rims, our bead seat diameter is true to the ISO rim diameter (622mm +/- 0.015").
That said I've taken these comments to heart and made the depth of the bead well (center) a bit deeper on the SL25 rim. It is noticeably easier to mount tires on the SL25.

As always, if anyone here has questions about proper tire installation technique on SL23 / SL25 rims, or any other Pacenti products, they can speak with me directly - 423.531.6136

Cheers,
KP

[Hermes_Alex]

Not what the OP inquired about , but, has anyone tried these out yet?

http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/208.htm

http://cdn3.volusion.com/zuzmr.cyhxj/v/vspfiles/photos/C31-1.jpg

Those look to be made by Kinlin, which have never really escaped their reputation for being not entirely round. It's a property which makes them difficult to build into a good wheel, though at that weight they may be easer; I don't know.

[Cicli]

I have talked to Kirk on several occasions. Awesome guy to deal with.

[ergott]

The trick to mounting tires on tubeless ready rims is to seat the bead in the center of the rim bed until you get the bead on all around. If you leave the bead up on the shoulders of the rim bed it will be nearly impossible to snap the last few inches of bead over the lip of the rim. With the bead in the center, I can mount Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 on my SL23 rims with no levers.

Quoted again for emphasis. I can't tell you how many times people rush through this information and then complain. This is how you install a tire on any wheel.

When I install a new set of tubeless tires I automatically reach for my Kool Stop tire bead jack. I don't always need it for the last bit of bead, but it's just easier and faster. Right tool for the job and all that. After a tire is installed the even the bead on tubeless tires loosens up a bit and I've had no trouble with simple tire levers out on the road.

I've read so many times where a rider will stop and rethink their tire installation technique only to find out that the above really works better in all instances. Campagnolo rims used to have a reputation for being tight. I had some and didn't notice much difference.

Don't blame rims for what is 99% of the time user related problems.

[Lovetoclimb]

Am I right in thinking the Pacenti SL25 is disc brake only? Assuming your wheelset is disc brake as wel ...

I personally just chose a set of Hed Belgium + rims over the Pacenti SL23 for 2 reasons. 1) wider and 2) several negative reviews about tire mounting on the SL23. I know tubeless ready rims can be difficult to deal with but I have never had major problems with HED Belgiums (the 23mm version) or Industry Nine i25s (also 23mm wide and tubeless ready). Difficult yes but not impossible which some friends have said about the SL23. If the SL25 was available in a rim brake option I would have probably given it a whirl though.

[Bruce K]

We have a bunch of HED wheels in the house (see below), including some Ardennes Plus (25mm) disc wheels on a couple of cross bikes.

My son recently built me up a set of the Pacenti 25mm rims on Industry 9 Torch Road Disc hubs. They are an amazing set of wheels. Every bit as fast, smooth, durable, etc. as the HEDs.

Similar pricing, etc. The one thing is that if your are willing to go with less expensive hubs, you can save some money.

You can also customize the Pacentis as to spoke count, lacing, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

BK

[ergott]

Am I right in thinking the Pacenti SL25 is disc brake only? Assuming your wheelset is disc brake as wel ...


SL25 is disc only. SL23 is with brake track.

[Kirk Pacenti]

SL25 is disc only. SL23 is with brake track.

And both are 24.5mm wide. ;)

[dekindy]

The trick to mounting tires on tubeless ready rims is to seat the bead in the center of the rim bed until you get the bead on all around. If you leave the bead up on the shoulders of the rim bed it will be nearly impossible to snap the last few inches of bead over the lip of the rim. With the bead in the center, I can mount Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 on my SL23 rims with no levers.

Eureka. I have been preaching this for years. Amen, Brother.

[JLP]

Even with all the tricks, I can't easily mount some tires on the Pacenti rims. Some of my friends can, and they make me look silly. I have had great luck with the Heds.

Kirk, glad to hear you made the well deeper. I'm happy to try those again now.

[Black Dog]

I just ordered a set of DT R460 rims. These are the 23mm offering from DT. They were priced at around $45 each so no big loss if they suck. If they do it will be pacenti's that replace them.

[oldpotatoe]

I just ordered a set of DT R460 rims. These are the 23mm offering from DT. They were priced at around $45 each so no big loss if they suck. If they do it will be pacenti's that replace them.

I like those, they seem to be a replacement for DT450..which was their Mavic Open Sport competitor. And tubeless compat. if you roll that way.

[Black Dog]

I like those, they seem to be a replacement for DT450..which was their Mavic Open Sport competitor. And tubeless compat. if you roll that way.

Not particularly interested in the tubeless part, I roll with supple tires and latex tubes already and don;t think tubeless is going to improve this set up significantly. The price was great and surprising low for a DT product. This is from a North American LBS not UK mail order. They are being shipped to me form the LBS. They have the same profile as the HED C2, Pancenti SL23, H+Son Archetype rims. I hope they build up as nice as HED and H+SON rims I have built up.

[572cv]

I personally just chose a set of Hed Belgium + rims over the Pacenti SL23 for 2 reasons. 1) wider and 2) several negative reviews about tire mounting on the SL23. I know tubeless ready rims can be difficult to deal with but I have never had major problems with HED Belgiums (the 23mm version) or Industry Nine i25s (also 23mm wide and tubeless ready). Difficult yes but not impossible which some friends have said about the SL23. If the SL25 was available in a rim brake option I would have probably given it a whirl though.

We have HED Ardennes and Belgium wheels, no problem mounting tires. Just got a new set w/ SL23 rims. I did not notice any difference in mounting tires on these.

[marciero]

And both are 24.5mm wide. ;)

Interesting. Thought they were 24.

[Cicli]

And both are 24.5mm wide. ;)

Interesting. Thought they were 24.

I dont think "Kirk Pacenti" is a screen name.

[marciero]

I dont think "Kirk Pacenti" is a screen name.

Dont get your meaning. A half-millimeter may not sound like a lot but my remark was made in all seriousness, especially as I am thinking of pairing a Belgium + front with one of these. Am well aware of the identity of the person to whom I was responding.

[Waldo]

I'm going to build up a new set of all-purpose wheels.

Narrowed the rim choice down to two and wanted to solicit feedback.

What say you?

Apples and oranges: Pacenti SL25 is disk-specific. Belgium+ is for rim brakes.

[KWalker]

Quite honestly I'm not very impressed with my Pacenti rims. The front developed several cracks at the spoke holes and the rear is almost at the wear marks after 8 months of use. I found my HEDs to be much more resilient and last much longer. I've only ridden my Pacentis in the rain 4 times and am quite surprised at the amount of wear.

[Black Dog]

Quite honestly I'm not very impressed with my Pacenti rims. The front developed several cracks at the spoke holes and the rear is almost at the wear marks after 8 months of use. I found my HEDs to be much more resilient and last much longer. I've only ridden my Pacentis in the rain 4 times and am quite surprised at the amount of wear.

How much tension is in the front spokes? Cracks are usually a sign over over tensioned spokes, especially on lower spoke count wheels.

[oldpotatoe]

How much tension is in the front spokes? Cracks are usually a sign over over tensioned spokes, especially on lower spoke count wheels.

Kirk addressed this methinks(he can speak for himself) with low spoke count and the need for nipple washers.

It can be over tensioning or like early stans and mid age zipp-crappy rims. Not for Pacenti rims, tho, IMHO.

I've built a few, 32h, and as a wheelbuilder, you can tell a lot about a rim by how it builds. Pacenti built well, quick, easily. As easy as HED, or Aussie A23.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Quite honestly I'm not very impressed with my Pacenti rims. The front developed several cracks at the spoke holes and the rear is almost at the wear marks after 8 months of use. I found my HEDs to be much more resilient and last much longer. I've only ridden my Pacentis in the rain 4 times and am quite surprised at the amount of wear.

KWalker,

If you're really not happy give me a call next week so we can discuss; 423.531.6136.

I can count the number of failed front SL23 rims on one hand. I would like to know more about the build specs. As for the wear, it only looks like a lot relative to the wear indicator. A rim without the wear indicator will wear just as much under the same conditions, but you won't have a reference point to from which to gauge it. Something else to consider is that the brake track in the rear wheel should actually last longer than the front wheel...

Have a great weekend, and I look forward to chatting with you next week.

Cheers,
KP

[Pastashop]

How much tension is in the front spokes? Cracks are usually a sign over over tensioned spokes, especially on lower spoke count wheels.


The wheel derives maximum strength from the spokes being at highest tension possible, and the rim being consequently in highest compression possible without buckling. It's dictated by basic, sound mechanics principles. For the strongest wheel build, it should be possible to tighten the spokes to (just before) the point of inducing buckling (waviness) in the rim. If the spokes pull through before that point, or if cracking appears, the rim construction is compromised. That can either be a sign of too few spokes, or a crack-prone spoke hole region.

Crack initiation can be delayed by annealing, polishing, or shot preening. Virtually no rim on the market today has those. Stainless steel eyelets help, as they take the spoke load and distribute it over a stronger material (steel), which then distributes the spoke load over a larger area surrounding the hole. But most eyeleted rims use single eyelets, instead of double; the latter can halve the stress at the spoke hole for the same spoke tension, greatly forestalling the point of crack formation.

[marciero]

is how I would describe my experience with the Pacenti, albeit in 650b size, with respect to ease of build, braking, ride, ease of mounting, etc.

[etu]

Really positive experience with my 650b Cl25. Even better experience with customer service getting a replacement after blow out of the rear wheel (most likely due to improperly seated tires) which damaged the rim at the valve stem hole. I am just a newbie with wheel building, so I would put a LOT of weight on what OP and Ergott have to say on this issue. I would guess it's a "feel" thing where when you've handled something a thousand times, you can tell pretty quickly what's good, mediocre, and bad.
Durability, mounting, and customer services is where the rest of us can probably best inform each other. I use GB tires and don't have strong hands, but I can manage to mount these without tire irons (technique, rim tape was critical).
The next build I am contemplating is a 700c disc set and I would definitely go with Pacenti rims again.
Lastly, as others have mentioned, Pacenti is a little more "local" with him being a frequent contributor and a sponsor of this forum.

[Mark McM]

It can be over tensioning or like early stans and mid age zipp-crappy rims. Not for Pacenti rims, tho, IMHO.

To add to pastashop's comments, high tension alone does not cause rim cracks, or else the rims would crack during their initial tensioning. Cracks generally form through usage, indicating that it is cyclic loading, not static loading, which is the primary source of cracking. The magnitude of the cyclic stresses depends on the load applied to the wheel, the number and thickness of the spokes, and the stiffness of the rim.

[pjmsj21]

KWalker,

If you're really not happy give me a call next week so we can discuss; 423.531.6136.

I can count the number of failed front SL23 rims on one hand. I would like to know more about the build specs. As for the wear, it only looks like a lot relative to the wear indicator. A rim without the wear indicator will wear just as much under the same conditions, but you won't have a reference point to from which to gauge it. Something else to consider is that the brake track in the rear wheel should actually last longer than the front wheel...

Have a great weekend, and I look forward to chatting with you next week.

Cheers,
KP

This kind of personal response is why I would purchase a Pacenti rim again rather than a HED....and I have both Panenti's and HED's. This isn't to infer that HED customer service is not good; but being able to connect with the principal of the company means a lot to me.....not to mention that I think the Pacenti is as good or better than the HED.

[beeatnik]

Mr. Pacenti, I like your style.

[JAWN]

Has anyone tried setting up their non-plus version of the Hed Belgium C2 (the 23mm wide version) rims as tubeless? Any drawbacks or limitations on how high the PSI can go?

EDIT/PS - This would be for CX applications so the tires will be in the 32c-40c range.

[KWalker]

Quite honestly I'm not very impressed with my Pacenti rims. The front developed several cracks at the spoke holes and the rear is almost at the wear marks after 8 months of use. I found my HEDs to be much more resilient and last much longer. I've only ridden my Pacentis in the rain 4 times and am quite surprised at the amount of wear.

I wanted to quote myself here because I actually spoke to Kirk in depth about the issues I was having with my wheels.

In the case of the front wheel the builder did not use spoke washers, but claims to have used proper tension. The damage to that wheel is unexplained and could have been from many factors so I don't want to blame it on the product itself.

As for the rear one thing to be taken into account is that when it rains where I live there is a lot of silt/sand in the road grime. I've definitely had a set of pads wear out within a week of high volume riding in the rain so it would make sense that the rim would bear the brunt of this. It still has quite a bit of life left.

Kirk was more than understanding of my issues and talked over some possible causes with me at length and even sent replacement rims free of charge just in case I might need them. Performance wise I feel that the Pacenti and HED rims both perform very, very well, however, HEDs are often hard to get ahold of in certain hole counts and the service Pacenti has provided has been good enough to where I trust them much more in the case of a malfunction or possible defect.

[pure-james]

FAO Kirk

Do you know when 32 hole SL25 rims are going to be available in the UK?

Many thanks

James

[AJosiahK]

Just laced a set of kings to those pacenti 25s. Built up nicely and look good too. I'm just realizing I forgot to weigh them!

Love the HEDs, they are a bit on the heavy side but boy are they bombproof