Riding posture question/observation...

[catulle]

I could ride the all day long except that the parts of my body that get tired are my arms and hands. I had shoulder surgery in February and I'm still undergonig therapy, so I can understand that my left arm tires after a couple of hours. But I know threre must be something wrong with the way I'm sitting on the bicycle because my legs, my back, and my neck can take the longest rides without a hitch, while I keep moving my hands and arms around to make them comfortable.

For all of the above, earlier today when riding, I thought that for a proper fit all measurements are taken on the bike, and from the rider's body while he is standing up or sitting against a wall. But I've never heard anyone saying anything about measuring how far the arms are stretched over the top tube. That is, it seems to me that the distance between a plumb line from the shoulders to a plumb line from the hands, as the rider is sitting on the bicycle, is a very important part of the equation (red line on the attached picture).

The farther out the arms are stretched, the more uncomfortable the position must be, atmo. Of course, the arms can't be too close to the body because the knees would run into the elbows. But a satisfactory point must be reached. Elasticity obviously has a great deal to do with how comfortable the person will be on the bicycle, but I don't have a problem bending parallel to the top tube; my problem is that my arms and hands tire from being so stretched out (or maybe from holding some much weight, which is also a consideration).

As always, all views are most welcome. Thank you.

[pdxmech13]

where did that persons pants go

[catulle]

where did that persons pants go

Hey, that's my cousin's girl friend.

[Smiley]

while riding on the hoods are your elbows locked out , that usually is the giveaway .

[catulle]

Giveaway? Yes, I have to keep telling myself to ride with my elbows bent, which I can do (on the hoods or on the drops), but mostly my elbows are locked straight. Of course, when on the big ring and hauling butt the torso gets down and the elbows are bent. But normally, the elbows stay pretty much straight.

Please explain the "giveaway" part. Thanks.

[Smiley]

The locked out elbows means your transmitting all front end road shock directly to your upper body , think of your elbows as shock absorbers and then this will make more sense .

[catulle]

The locked out elbows means your transmitting all front end road shock directly to your upper body , think of your elbows as shock absorbers and then this will make more sense .

Well, that's easy enough to understand. My question is: How do I set up my bicycle (or whatever needs to be set up) in order NOT to ride with my elbows locked. Thanks.

[bluesea]

Well, that's easy enough to understand. My question is: How do I set up my bicycle (or whatever needs to be set up) in order NOT to ride with my elbows locked. Thanks.

It depends on why you are locking your elbows. Maybe its just a bad habit, or maybe you are relieving strain on your hands, arms, and shoulders due to the bars being too low.

[keno]

is what will enable you to take the pressure off your shoulders, arms and hands. You can shorten your stem, and risk the wrath of the jerk, to create more room, but, ultimately, if your position is otherwise correct, Pilates will help over time.

keno

[Tom]

It'll bring you forward and, oddly enough, take weight off your hands. People say 'flatten your back' but for some reason I have remind myself to 'stick your chest out' for the same result. It sounds stupid but it works for me.

[eddief]

If you're not racing and aerodynamics is not a huge factor in your riding satisfaction, you might raise your stem and/or shorten a bit. In a slightly more upright riding position more weight will be on your butt and less on your hands. I think core strength, of which I have just a little, could also make a big difference.

[Smiley]

shorten stem although that may effect handling depending on what you have now , my best suggestion is shorten the reach on your handlebars , my guess is your using a 10 cm reach bar so go to an 8 reach bar and that should do it until you get your core strength up or like they say Forget about it ! Good luck

[Ken Robb]

raise your bars?

[Climb01742]

ok, this is a generalization, but here goes any way: there are usually two ways to address something like this (assuming there isn't some flaw in your fit): 1. physically change your body to address the "weakness" that is causing the discomfort (in this case perhaps getting a stronger core and/or working on bending your elbows) or 2. change the bike to adapt to your body. the first way gets at the problem by addressing the root cause. the second way addresses the symptom. which way seems like it might work for you?

[catulle]

Well, the truth of the matter is that I do a lot of core training. I've been attending on a regular basis a pretty good gym for the past several years, and the focus of my routine is core training. However, I did have surgery on my left shoulder in February but I don't think that is the real issue.

I have 100mm stems on my bicycles, which I recently switched from 110mm. I guess I just need to do more miles and concentrate on keping the elbows bent. And 10cm saddle to bars drop is too much; I'll just try to stick to threaded steering in the future.

Thank you all for your interest. :beer:

[Dr. Doofus]

catulle

your body proportions have a lot to do with it

doof can do two sets of 200 crunches and all other kinds of core stuff

doof can touch his chin to the tibial tuberosity when he does a hurdler's stretch

doof can't ride more than 9cm of drop for more than a week without grundle issues

for foodus, this has a lot to do with the muscle he carries in his shoulders and chest that he can never get rid of -- his hands have to support that weight, and he can only get so low until his lower chin rest has to take some of it -- regardless of his flexibility and core strength (maybe a trip to the jerk or kellog would help doof out...or maybe, as the jerk tells him, doof already knows what he needs to know, and just needs to keep what feels good going).

you're a little squirt -- that 10cm of drop may be too much.

(and even big guys sometimes don't run much drop...Thor only runs 9cm...but look at his upper body...the tall guys who run mucho drop also have bird chests and sissy-looking narrow shoulders...like the jerk)

[Len J]

shorten stem although that may effect handling depending on what you have now , my best suggestion is shorten the reach on your handlebars , my guess is your using a 10 cm reach bar so go to an 8 reach bar and that should do it until you get your core strength up or like they say Forget about it ! Good luck

you make it sound like shortening the stem might effect handling but shortening the reach on the bars wouldn't.........I don't get this. I think that the combination of stem and HB reach is what dictates specific handling....after all it's the sum of the two that dictate where your hands are and hence where the leverage comes from.......changing either one has the same effect. Am I wrong. (This is why I have trouble with th "Your stem is too short" threads, no mention of bar reach)

12 cm stem + 10 cm reach bars = 13 cm stem + 9 cm reach bars.

What am I missing.

Len

[Smiley]

I am guessing that this guy rides a BIGGER frame bike , I would not want a stem shorter then 10 cm on that bike and so the only other recourse is a shorter reach bar. I think this is the lesser of two evils and it really depends on the size of ones hands if this can even be done comfortably . Its why I have no less then 8 handle bars in my studio here .

[Len J]

I am guessing that this guy rides a BIGGER frame bike , I would not want a stem shorter then 10 cm on that bike and so the only other recourse is a shorter reach bar. I think this is the lesser of two evils and it really depends on the size of ones hands if this can even be done comfortably . Its why I have no less then 8 handle bars in my studio here .

I undeerstand but...what difference does it make to have an 8 stem with 10 bars or a 10 stem with 8 bars? I would say none on handling, only difference is looks.....am I wrong?

Len

[Smiley]

With the 8 cm stem you effect riding even when riding on the bar tops , with the reach of the bar your really not effecting the weight while riding on the tops and the weight on the front wheel is not changed as much , and this is not splitting hairs . Don't ignore how much your ride on the tops versus the hoods .

[Len J]

With the 8 cm stem you effect riding even when riding on the bar tops , with the reach of the bar your really not effecting the weight while riding on the tops and the weight on the front wheel is not changed as much , and this is not splitting hairs . Don't ignore how much your ride on the tops versus the hoods .

riding on the tops is, a.) such a small percentage of non-climbing riding & b.) when climbing, how important is handling?

Point about the tops is a good one though if you are trying to choose the best of two bad choices.

Len

[catulle]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doofus]catulle

your body proportions have a lot to do with it
you're a little squirt -- that 10cm of drop may be too much.

Wise words, professor. I have a few steel bicycles in my future, and they will have threaded steering. If carbon forks weren't so expensive, I'd switch forks on my carbon frames if I could lessen the saddle to bars drop significantly.

Hey, thanks for reading.

[e-RICHIE]

Hey, thanks for reading.

'been a pleasure atmo

[stevep]

elbows straight. very very bad.
you have to teach yourself not to ride w/ those.
will help.
then you can be normal and get tired legs like you are supposed yo.

[Dr. Doofus]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doofus]catulle

your body proportions have a lot to do with it
you're a little squirt -- that 10cm of drop may be too much.

Wise words, professor. I have a few steel bicycles in my future, and they will have threaded steering. If carbon forks weren't so expensive, I'd switch forks on my carbon frames if I could lessen the saddle to bars drop significantly.

Hey, thanks for reading.

that's why oodf has two carbon forks in his bike room

ain't threadless grand....

[jerk]

.

(and even big guys sometimes don't run much drop...Thor only runs 9cm...but look at his upper body...the tall guys who run mucho drop also have bird chests and sissy-looking narrow shoulders...like the jerk)


might be true but the jerk makes up for it by having a very large.......nose.

jerk

[Dr. Doofus]

long nose...long feet...long stem....

you missed your calling when you went into the bike thing

[jerk]

long nose...long feet...long stem....

you missed your calling when you went into the bike thing


why what should the jerk have done? joined the vincent cassel look-a-like circle?

jerk

[Dr. Doofus]

why what should the jerk have done? joined the vincent cassel look-a-like circle?

jerk

you could model socks and eyeglasses

[jerk]

you could model socks and eyeglasses


for prada? you hiring?

jerk

[Dr. Doofus]

you hiring?

jerk

for the rock hill wal-mart

can you pass the drug test?

[e-RICHIE]

for the rock hill wal-mart

can you pass the drug test?

he can name one, so - yes, he can pass it.

[jerk]

he can name one, so - yes, he can pass it.


yeah; its initials are gh; george hincapie right? video game section and/or firearms please.

jerk

[Dr. Doofus]

yeah; its initials are gh; george hincapie right? video game section and/or firearms please.

jerk

hired

show up tomorrow with your social security card, driver's license, a 56 love #3 with 5mm of ht cut off, and we'll get you started

[jerk]

hired

show up tomorrow with your social security card, driver's license, a 56 love #3 with 5mm of ht cut off, and we'll get you started


how about an expired uci license, a letter of recommendation from a nobel laureate, two broken cckmps in 53cm courtesy of roy munson, and the willingness to put in long hours in pursuit of the american dream?

never mind. the jerk's going to work for cycle-smart.

jerk

[GregLR]

I'm late to this thread, but I have an unusual suggestion. A couple of weeks ago I reduced reach on a steel bike that has race-oriented geometry by replacing the Chorus ti seatpost (significant setback) with one from another of my bikes that has little setback (a USE Alien ti). It reduced reach by perhaps 2 cm, and I now don't ride this bike with my elbows locked. I seem to have a position that is just as efficient/powerful but more comfortable. I had already fitted a 10cm stem (this bike used to have a 12cm), but I was still feeling a bit too stretched out.

Greg

[catulle]

I'm late to this thread, but I have an unusual suggestion. A couple of weeks ago I reduced reach on a steel bike that has race-oriented geometry by replacing the Chorus ti seatpost (significant setback) with one from another of my bikes that has little setback (a USE Alien ti). It reduced reach by perhaps 2 cm, and I now don't ride this bike with my elbows locked. I seem to have a position that is just as efficient/powerful but more comfortable. I had already fitted a 10cm stem (this bike used to have a 12cm), but I was still feeling a bit too stretched out.

Greg

No, you´re not late. You´re welcome. How is the knee over pedal relation affected, if any?

[shaq-d]

Of course, the arms can't be too close to the body because the knees would run into the elbows.

from what i've seen of pro riders, this is not a problem. lots of riders have overlapping elbows and knees; the handlebar is wide enough, and the legs pumping close enough to the top tube, such that there is no elbow-knee contact. i can say this is also the case with my own position, and i have no probs. so as has been said; shorten and/or raise stem..

sd

[stevep]

just dont put on a cheap trek fork if you are going to do paris roubaix next year.

[GregLR]

How is the knee over pedal relation affected, if any?

I haven't done any measurements, but I feel no noticeable difference when pedalling compared with my other bikes. I'm aware that I'm sitting more forward, but leverage doesn't seem to be affected.

It's a largish frame (59.5cm c-to-c), and I have relatively long legs for my height (90cm inseam; height: 181.5cm or 5' 11.5"). The Competitive Cyclist fit calculator suggests that I don't need much setback, but I do have seatposts with significant set back on my other 4 road bikes.

In fact, I switched the Chorus seatpost to my Legend (with saddle intact - both bikes have a ti Rolls), to give me a bit more stretched out position because I felt like I was sitting up a bit too much. It's not a textbook approach, but it seems like this switch has improved position on both the steel bike and the Legend.

Greg

[Dave]

It should not be difficult to reduce the saddle to bar height difference to a lot less than 10cm without resorting to a threaded steerer and quill stem. Not too long ago, I measured an old TTT quill stem and found that the maximum height was really no different than an common 84 degree stem with 3cm of spacer. This same height could be produced with a 96 degree stem and 1cm of spacer. While some may not like the look of a 96 degree stem, at least it's a viable solution to the problem.

I'd also say that if you can't get an 8cm height difference with an 84 degree stem, then the frame is too small. It's not uncommon for riders to complain about short head tubes (they aren't any shorter these days), when the real problem was selecting a frame based on TT length and totally ignoring the head tube length. Most often, a 2cm larger frame size only has a 1cm longer TT (sometimes even less).

Moving the saddle forward to reduce reach would generally not be a good idea, depending on your current KOP position. Moving the saddle forward will place more weight on the hands.

As for bending your elbows, very little bend is necessary for comfort. All you have to do is not LOCK the elbows. As long at the elbow is not locked, it's able to move and absorb shock.

As for knee to elbow clearance, that's my main criteria for adequate stem length. I make sure that I have no knee to arm interference when I'm in the drops with my fingers in reach of the brake levers and my back is as low as I'd normally ride on the flats or descending. You won't see many pros riding with knee to arm interference , except when they are in an extremely low position, as might be adopted for high speed descending without pedaling (nose down near the bars). In this positin the arms must have a substantial bend, which will create knee to arm inteference (usually well above the elbow). I can tolerate a stem length just long enough to avoid knee to arm interference in any position in which I would pedal. One size longer will be uncomfortable when riding on the brake hoods.

[shaq-d]

hey cat.. so how are those arms? i have 2 setups on my bikes, by the way.. on my racy serotta i use a lower handlebar, while ont he commuter and fun steel bike i use a handlebar level with the saddle. distance from bar to saddle is exactly the same. i find on the level handlebar setup i don't have arm issues, but on the racy ones i always do, even though everything else is fine...

so raise those bars if u haven't already..or have u? update us..

[catulle]

hey cat.. so how are those arms? i have 2 setups on my bikes, by the way.. on my racy serotta i use a lower handlebar, while ont he commuter and fun steel bike i use a handlebar level with the saddle. distance from bar to saddle is exactly the same. i find on the level handlebar setup i don't have arm issues, but on the racy ones i always do, even though everything else is fine...

so raise those bars if u haven't already..or have u? update us..

When I bought my C-40, the dealer sent the bicycle with the steerer tube cut down to the minimum without ever asking my preference. So I learned never to assume, and never to buy from that dealer again (he was an a$$ anyway). Thus, as Dave suggests, I'll be trying a new Oval stem (84 degrees?), which I should have in a couple of weeks.

The others are not that bad as one has a threaded steerer, and other has the complete steerer tube and that is just fine.

Thanks for your interest. :beer:

[BarryG]

It sounds to me like you might have too much weight forward on the bike and being supported by your arms. Check Peter White's article (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm) on fitting, especially the fore-aft section and consider moving your saddle back.

[Eric E]

I had the same problems in my hands and shoulders - finally solved it with a max setback seapost and a 72 degree seat tube angle. I did have to go custom (Serotta Rapid tour with longer chain stays) to get this geometry with a reasonable stem extension...

Eric