Has NAHBS jumped the shark?

[mistermo]

Just a quick look at the NAHBS site page shows a dearth of the framebuilders one used to see at NAHBS.

Notable absentees from years past: ANT, Crumpton, Retrotec, Kirk, Pegoretti, Sachs, Vanilla, Waterford, Strong, Ellis, IF, Bedford and K Anderson and more...

What triggered the decline?

[gmonster]

Does ANT exist anymore? I am going this year, and I like what I've seen so far. I think they have a good showing.

[JasonF]

Although I'm sure the well-established builders love to support the craft, some probably want to stay home and work on their queue. The economy has been relatively strong (definitely compared to several years ago) and so they probably have a very nice backlog to work through.

[Matt-H]

I noticed the same when I checked their site a while ago. I recall a thread by one of our forumite frame builders describing the time, expense and logistics of attending NAHBS. Good for us, not that great for them, it seems.

I think it would be fun to ride the new bike park in the giant cave, do a bourbon trail tour and attend the show.

[eBAUMANN]

Although I'm sure the well-established builders love to support the craft, some probably want to stay home and work on their queue. The economy has been relatively strong (definitely compared to several years ago) and so they probably have a very nice backlog to work through.

this :rolleyes:

[makoti]

This would be a good question to ask across the hall.

[rnhood]

Why do they need to keep showing year after year. Some of the builders have built up 3 and 4 year backlogs so why would they need to market their products every year?

I think these events should be changing year over year.

[Hermes_Alex]

Louisville is a pretty expensive place to get to, plane tickets for me would have been close to double compared to if they hosted it near a major airline hub.

[FlashUNC]

At least four on that list were at NAHBS last year.

The show isn't perfect by any stretch, but the vagaries of the framebuilding business (location, a builder's queue, cost) I think mean you'll get some roster changes from year-to-year.

I don't know about other shows, but volunteering at NAHBS Charlotte I met a lot of exhibitors who were first time attendees because it was closer to home in the Southeast.

[staggerwing]

While I understand staying home to work on the queue, haven't a couple of those listed been perennial attendees? Thinking RS in particular.

[Chris]

If I'm not mistaken, David Kirk did a write-up a while back about the expense of going to the show. Probably not something too many builders can justify year in year out.

[texbike]

Thinking about this, I wonder how many "new" consumers actually attend these shows versus the usual groupies year after year. You know, fresh meat to be marketed to and wowed by the NAHBS experience. I would say that the percentage of new attendees is probably a small fraction of the audience. Most of the groupies know where to find the builders outside of the show anyway. So, is the event really that relevant at this point for established builders?

I've attended four NAHBSs over the years. They were all fun and interesting but I personally think that NAHBS's time is kinda done. Perhaps a break for a couple of years is in order?

Texbike

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . it's the expense of making a good showing if you attend as an exhibitor (Dave Kirk's account comes to mind) combined with some of the personal politics I have heard varying accounts of. Maybe not "Game of Framebuilder Thrones," but it sounds like there are games played.

BBD

[parris]

I also wonder if the builders who aren't attending have seen a drop off in return due to vendors that aren't frame builders. clothing, components, etc. It only makes sense that if more ancillary businesses are at a show that formerly showed just frames and such it would attract people who although enthusiast's maybe aren't interested in a custom frame/bike. Just a thought

[texbike]

I also wonder if the builders who aren't attending have seen a drop off in return due to vendors that aren't frame builders. clothing, components, etc. It only makes sense that if more ancillary businesses are at a show that formerly showed just frames and such it would attract people who although enthusiast's maybe aren't interested in a custom frame/bike. Just a thought

Personally I think that the more new people that you can get in the door and have exposed to the craft bike culture, the better. Whether it be clothes, accessories, kettle korn, whatever, it brings boys to the yard. More traffic = more potential customers.

Texbike

[Mikej]

I thought RS was going to be showing his S&S Fat bike....darn

[rugbysecondrow]

Two things:

1) This is a hard thing to say, but it seems the handbuilt movement has been watered down a little. Lots of the builders who show up can make bike-jewelry, but can they make a great riding handbuilt bike? NAHBS celebrates bike-jewelry, which is cool, but I think that has grown stale to a certain degree.

2) with social media, you can "meet" your builder and follow them year round, and not feel like you have to drop a bunch of coin to travel to a show. They show photos, production shots, interact with comments and questions...it is a very cool experience. The gap is bridged between customer/fan and builder. Unless the show was down the road from me, I am not certain what I would gain by going verses seeing the photos afterwards and following folks via social media. I will say, I am not the sort to go to other fan shows (baseball, football etc), so fandom doesn't really interest me at all. Others make a trek to Canton and Cooperstown everyyear for autographs...whatever floats your boat.

[parris]

Tex My thought on what I wrote earlier is that in the previous shows there was a greater focus on the bikes and and people building those bikes. Due to that it drew a different customer in the door. Now if say Sram, Shimano, Campy are there showing their lines that may be of interest to a customer on a different level. Not better or worse just different.

We all know people who love their Trek, Specialized, etc bikes which is great overall. But maybe the small builders who have attended in the past aren't seeing a benefit especially given how much effort and expense they've got to shoulder.

More people riding, buying and such is good for all of us overall but if the small builder doesn't see any additional orders in their books it's got to hurt on several levels.

[texbike]

Tex My thought on what I wrote earlier is that in the previous shows there was a greater focus on the bikes and and people building those bikes. Due to that it drew a different customer in the door. Now if say Sram, Shimano, Campy are there showing their lines that may be of interest to a customer on a different level. Not better or worse just different.



Agreed. I was looking at it more from the perspective of the clothing and accessories vendors versus the BIG components guys. More of the craft-centric vendors whose customer base would be more inclined to be attracted to the hand-made aspect of the frame builders. I attended the first couple of NAHBSs that did have that pure focus and personally preferred the later, larger shows (Portland and Austin specifically) that had a wider variety of cycling-related goodies on display.

Texbike

[eddief]

why waste a ton o time energy and dough to entertain Lookie Lews?

[fuzzalow]

Strived for Gagosian and settled for Interbike Lite.

All below is just my opinion:


Builder talent pool not big enough.

Consumer pool not deep enough to recognize and pay for advances in the bicycle form that will go unnoticed by the average consumer and unremarkable even to the level of the semi-serious enthusiast.

Partial rebellion by some early supporters of the show in the belief that their craft was the marquee-value in the event and therefore the terms of participation should be more equitably favorable to the talent pool and less to the entrepreneur.

Difficult, if not impossible, to sustain wow-factor year upon year to the average show go-er

[Ralph]

Getting together a display, cost of display space, getting it boxed and shipped, airplane tickets for all involved plus lodging and food.....can't really see how a small frame builder can justify the cost of going. It might take the profit of several months sales just to attend. Don't seem worth it to me looking at it from a displayer's point of view.

[saab2000]

Don't overthink this. If you're interested go and have a blast. There's so much bike porn to be seen and so many fun people to meet. Make an overnight of it if you can and have beers with likeminded folks after the show each day.

Don't worry about who's not there. Enjoy who is there. Those who aren't there have legit reasons to stay at home and there's so much more talent and fun to be had with the folks who are actually there.

I've been 3 times and I hope to make it this year if I can.

[buddybikes]

NAHBS, or better yet a large bike club, should do funky regional shows. Another option partner with league of american bicyclists. There was a local show last year in Rhode Island on a Friday night? that seemed really cool, wish I could of attended.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . mentioning $10g by the time you factor in time spent building bikes specifically for the show, travel, lodging, publicity, booth fees, miscellaneous fees, and everything else. Maybe he can chime in here and bring us up to date. It just doesn't seem worth it to attend from an ROI standpoint. How many firm orders would Dave need to get--and be able to prove they were a direct result of this show--to be able to say for sure that the investment to be there was worth it?

At this point I know who I would buy a custom from, and even if I attended a NAHBS specifically to shop, I would be impressed by the same small set of builders at THAT particular show that everybody else would be impressed by, and would feel like I was in a race to get in their queue to avoid waiting forever.

I would be more interested in attending an event where builders actually come together and ride, along with their customers, to see how their normal build looks and is ridden. Seems like this was what TooTall's "Baller's Ride" was? I attended one such slightly clandestine event several years ago in Western Mass. with employees from Parlee, Firefly, and Serotta, and we rode and BBQ'ed and it was great.

I'm also puzzled by the several years when the show has been held in the depths of winter in a city where the weather pretty much precluded any real riding. They should have it in warm weather in a rural locale where riding is possible and to hell with the big exhibit hall. I would jump on board in a second for a one day gathering of this kind in the Greenfield area the two days before the Sunday D2R2.

BBD


Getting together a display, cost of display space, getting it boxed and shipped, airplane tickets for all involved plus lodging and food.....can't really see how a small frame builder can justify the cost of going. It might take the profit of several months sales just to attend. Don't seem worth it to me looking at it from a displayer's point of view.

[Climb01742]

Instead of spending the money to attend the show, a builder might get a better return on that money by investing it in a better website, better photography, and help with an enhanced social media effort. Just a thought.

[Drewmanchew]

Half full or half empty? I'll admit it, I miss seeing what Sacha and Co. dream up for their booth each year but think of what the guys who are coming to Louisville are working their rear and off for? I bet the show will have some incredible bikes and maybe whoever is the next______ maybe there first show. I may be biased because its in my home town but I'm excited. There is plenty awesome food, coffee and things to see while in town. And there is plenty of excellent bourbon to go around so I'm saying the glass is half full.
-Drew

[rwsaunders]

don't overthink this. If you're interested go and have a blast. There's so much bike porn to be seen and so many fun people to meet. Make an overnight of it if you can and have beers with likeminded folks after the show each day.

Don't worry about who's not there. Enjoy who is there. Those who aren't there have legit reasons to stay at home and there's so much more talent and fun to be had with the folks who are actually there.

I've been 3 times and i hope to make it this year if i can.

+1.

[aosty]

Maybe the midwest in the dead of winter isn't the ideal location for a bike event (even an indoors one)?


(yes, already mentioned)

[KF9YR]

Last October I went to Outerbike in Moab to check out the latest Mountain bikes. I didn't find anything that I thought was that "special".

This December I was looking at some websites and noticed Kent Eriksen's 2013 NAHBS Full-Suspension bike. The next day I gave him a call.

I ordered one a few days later and it arrived two weeks ago. It's an amazing bike. I don't think I would have found the bike on the internet if not for the article from the show.

I do think it would be smart to pick a location where it's warm. If someone has a significant other that doesn't cycle warm weather is a potent argument for the trip.

I hope they pick Phoenix soon. This is prime riding season out here.

[rounder]

Not for me. I went to NAHBS in Richmond. Bought two bikes from a guy there that I would not even had heard of. I know that for a builder to go there is expensive. You have to sell what you build and attending the show can be expensive. But for some, if you do not attend, lost sales can be missed opportunity.

[Plum Hill]

I forgot about the darned thing until last night. Checked host hotel and the best rate I was quoted was $155. Made me wonder why a bike show is held in a downtown convention center. Seems like a less expensive suburban location would be more economical for exhibitors and customers.

[oldpotatoe]

Just a quick look at the NAHBS site page shows a dearth of the framebuilders one used to see at NAHBS.

Notable absentees from years past: ANT, Crumpton, Retrotec, Kirk, Pegoretti, Sachs, Vanilla, Waterford, Strong, Ellis, IF, Bedford and K Anderson and more...

What triggered the decline?

I've talked to a few. Moots, Richard Schwinn, Nobilette, Sean Walling(SoulCraft)
and NAHBS is expensive. To go to, to rent space, etc. AND 'some' exhibitors see it as an art show rather than a consumer(as in those who buy/order frames) show. So, they spend a fair amount of $, show their 'tools not trophys', get little response compared to the one off, one of a kind, sometimes silly but pretty, piece of art next door..and write few or no orders..so they question the value of going.

[Davist]

It rings of "yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices" for me.

I'm sure it's great, I'd like to go and look, but when it comes time to buy, well..

All the information I'd need is easily available on the interwebs for custom stuff. Kinda hard to justify when you're a 42 regular.

Also sure the guys across the hall love it, which has its own flavor..

[Doug Fattic]

I’ve commented on the weaknesses of NAHBS on Paceline before. Its formula doesn't work for a typical framebuilder. The cost of a booth and all other related expenses is way more than what he/she can afford from their yearly profits alone. On top of that is time lost making an attractive booth and bicycles that will somehow catch the eye of attendees and the press. Experience has taught pervious exhibitors that the return on their investment did not pay off. But there are more reasons for its decline than that the show is too expensive. Here are just a couple.

Most builders have essentially a local rather than a national market. While during my 40 year career I’ve sold frames and paint jobs everywhere, most of my customers came from within a 250 mile radius (the distance one can comfortably drive in a day). It makes little sense for a builder to blow their budget on a show in a city where the majority of attendees aren’t going to travel out of their time zone to work with them. And there is no guarantee they will be heard above the noise of the crowd anyway.

More regional shows with much lower costs and far fewer entry rules and regulations have blossomed in the last few years. This is where it makes sense for most builders to exhibit. The Philly Expo in particular has become a kind of replacement for builders that don’t want to show at NAHBS. Bina the organizer took event planning as a college major and her superior administrative ability shows. I went to Philly this year and asked the builder/exhibitors if they were also going to NAHBS. Almost everyone said no because of the expense or conflicts they had experienced. Been there done that there were things/people I didn’t like ain’t going back was what I heard.

What I said on Paceline a few years ago was that builders as exhibitors would be replaced with bike related companies. I’m a prophet. A national builder with a long wait list doesn’t need it, a regional builder can’t afford it (or afford it year after year) and there is not a endless supply of new builders coming in as replacements.

[Lewis Moon]

It rings of "yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices" for me.

I'm sure it's great, I'd like to go and look, but when it comes time to buy, well..

All the information I'd need is easily available on the interwebs for custom stuff. Kinda hard to justify when you're a 42 regular.

Also sure the guys across the hall love it, which has its own flavor..

Yeah. I get the whole "jewelry bike" thing, but for me, bikes are a part of the formula, not the entire formula. I won't buy a jewelry bike for a lot of reasons that I've pontificated on before, so I won't go into it here. NAHBS, and the bike industry in general ignores folks like me. Everything is either overlight, overbuilt, overpretty, overdesigned, overstupid, overwrought or an answer to nobody's question... Nothing is just good enough and works well.
I guess we're a bit harder to part from our money, so why even try.

[David Kirk]

I think it simply boils down to cost and value.

First cost - is the cost of the event appropriate for a very small business? In other words how much gross business does a one man shop need to do to have a single event that cost between $7000 - $10,000 make good financial sense? Another way to look at it is what percentage of gross does it cost the one man shop compared to a company like Shimano? The dollars spent are similar but the percentage of gross, and the amount of financial sense it makes, are much different.

Value - I do not know how the show is being organized this year so forgive me if any of this has been addressed recently........in the past the show drew a lot of press, both local and national. It was a big happening and the press that accompanied it was one of the big draws for the small builder. The chance for many more folks than come through the gates to see your work is a big deal. But, for reasons I don't fully understand, the show now draws much less press. Normally this time of year the web is full of pre-show buzz and I think it's indicative that so far this is the only real show thread here at the Paceline.....and the number of magazines and sites that send a reporter/photographer to the show has dropped in a big way. Less press = less value.

Also notable is the fact that the show dropped its glossy show guide that was given out to everyone that came through the gates (as well as one going to every Mountain Flyer subscriber by mail) and you have that many fewer lasting impressions out there. It used to be that shoppers would sit in the hotel rooms at night reading the guide and then come in and walk right to your booth the next day to talk with the builder they read about the night before. They would then bring it home and leave it on the coffee table and then give it to a friend. This has huge value to the little guy as it added more impressions per dollar spent.

Another value thing is harder for me to describe.....there was a time when the builder was the focus of the show and the side companies (like Fizik or Sram) were mere supporters of the builder and their participation helped lower the overall cost for everyone. It makes good sense for the big guys to come as it's dirt cheap for them and they can get their stuff in front of real enthusiasts. But in time this shifted. Last I was there the big guys had huge island booths with free beer or coffee that dwarfed the little guys and made them feel like second class citizens. Every moment a guy spends in the Sram booth is a moment they aren't in the Waterford booth and you can feel this in a big way as you stand in your empty booth watching folks line up for drinks across the isle. I think this is a natural shift and wouldn't say that the show organizer has done something wrong to cause this - but it is what it is.

Lastly the big bomb to drop..........the awards. The awards are a double edged sword. We all hate them unless we win one and then they are the best thing ever. The combination of the awards becoming a somewhat political thing and less a "who built the best bike" thing makes it hard for many to feel like the bike they brought a bike, however nice it is, that could win an award and add value to being there. The other thing is that the mere presence of awards means that many build bikes with the sole purpose of trying to win an award. This means that all too many bikes are WAY over the top art bikes that would never be ridden.....or in some cases could never be ridden. So to try to win an award and add value to being there the builder often feels they need to make a special one-off show bike that can take hundreds of hours to build just to get noticed. Guys that bring what they sell get that much less exposure with their wonderful but 'boring' bikes. This lowers the value to many builders.


-----------------

I don't have the answer for this. In the end I feel that a show, any show, might be hard to justify for a one man shop that makes a living off their framebuilding work. I don't think NAHBS charges more than they need to and even if the booth was free ( the booth costs about 10% of my total cost last time I went) the travel and associated costs would add up to more than it makes sense to spend for the small shop. I think a show is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of thing. Many feel they can't afford to go and can't afford to miss it and they are painted in a corner.

If the show comes back to within a days drive of me and the costs can be kept down I'd love to go. That said - I will never again pay $400 to have a fork lift move my crate the 400' feet from the loading dock to my booth and then pay again to have it moved back thats for sure. This kind of thing is what sucked the fun of it for me.

Thanks for reading.

Dave

[tigoat]

It was interesting to read comments from some industry insiders here about the business of the show. I didn’t expect it to be this complicated. Since most builders have a very long waiting list of customers nowadays, it does not make a lot of sense for them to attend. I was kind of surprised to see some big name builders from the West Coast attending, perhaps for other reasons besides marketing. It will be less than 2 hours of drive for me so I am still having a little thought about whether to go or not. I have no interest in anything particular but thought that I might miss a good opportunity to see the show for being so close to home.

[David Kirk]

It was interesting to read comments from some industry insiders here about the business of the show. I didn’t expect it to be this complicated. Since most builders have a very long waiting list of customers nowadays, it does not make a lot of sense for them to attend. I was kind of surprised to see some big name builders from the West Coast attending, perhaps for other reasons besides marketing. It will be less than 2 hours of drive for me so I am still having a little thought about whether to go or not. I have no interest in anything particular but thought that I might miss a good opportunity to see the show for being so close to home.

I've seen the bold part stated a few times in this thread and in many places on the web and the sad truth is it just isn't true at this point. There are VERY few builders with long queues at this point. Very few. Most have seen a serious hit in business over the past few years. It's not talked about because everyone wants to put forth the image that they are kicking ass and that everything is "fine" but only a few are doing well and most are starting to hurt in a serious way. So it could be they are staying away from the show not because they have too long a queue to bother but instead because biz has been slow for long enough that they don't have the cash to attend.

I fully realize that the above goes against most of what is said about the handbuilt niche but it's true.........and we are going to see a serious shaking out over the next few years with a lot of guys folding up shop.

If you love the niche support it now while you still can. I know this sounds dire.....because it is.

dave

[pdmtong]

It will be less than 2 hours of drive for me so I am still having a little thought about whether to go or not. I have no interest in anything particular but thought that I might miss a good opportunity to see the show for being so close to home.

Less than two hours and you are waffling? If that is the case then you should cross NAHBS off your list permanently since if you won't drive to the show, you surely won't fly (more time/money) to the show, which leaves you waiting until Cincy draws the straw.

I've been to two - San Jose #3 (very small) and Sacramento #8 (very large). I enjoyed both. It will be as fun as you want it to be.

[tigoat]

Wow, I didn't see that coming Dave. I thought everything has been very rosy in this custom frame building industry. That conclusion has been based on some factual observations. FireFly has a waiting list of 13 months. Engin just bought an expensive CNN machine to make his own bike parts. Kish is employing some new engineers and investing on more tooling and equipment. Dave Anderson's waiting list is off the chart, probably in RS and Vanilla territories. Groovy closed his order book for being too full. Holland increased his business significantly with more personnel and carbon products. Moots is desperately hiring more employees. Eriksen has been too busy to talk. Potts has moved to a larger place to increase production capacity. Atrain, a relatively new young builder has a waiting list of 9 months...................... I made a couple of inquiries recently with some builders (not these listed here) for some clients and some of them didn't even bother to response. Business is probably too much to care I guess. The US economy in general is doing great. The unemployment rate is relatively low. Stocks have been hitting all time highs. People with a disposable income everywhere. Base on all these observations, it does not sound like the bike industry is in any trouble to me. If anything, it will get better from now on. Not sure what is the disconnect here?

I've seen the bold part stated a few times in this thread and in many places on the web and the sad truth is it just isn't true at this point. There are VERY few builders with long queues at this point. Very few. Most have seen a serious hit in business over the past few years. It's not talked about because everyone wants to put forth the image that they are kicking ass and that everything is "fine" but only a few are doing well and most are starting to hurt in a serious way. So it could be they are staying away from the show not because they have too long a queue to bother but instead because biz has been slow for long enough that they don't have the cash to attend.

I fully realize that the above goes against most of what is said about the handbuilt niche but it's true.........and we are going to see a serious shaking out over the next few years with a lot of guys folding up shop.

If you love the niche support it now while you still can. I know this sounds dire.....because it is.

dave

[tigoat]

Less than two hours and you are waffling? If that is the case then you should cross NAHBS off your list permanently since if you won't drive to the show, you surely won't fly (more time/money) to the show, which leaves you waiting until Cincy draws the straw.

I've been to two - San Jose #3 (very small) and Sacramento #8 (very large). I enjoyed both. It will be as fun as you want it to be.

I hear you man but going to the show will consume a whole day, which I might be better off go riding instead, especially being trapped in the middle of winter for two weeks now. I used to like winter for a change of seasons but now I am having a second thought about it. I will need to look into building a fat bike to ride on ice next year so I won't be locked out of crappy weather again. Perhaps the show will come to Cincy someday so I will not have an excuse not to attend.

[David Kirk]

Wow, I didn't see that coming Dave. I thought everything has been very rosy in this custom frame building industry. That conclusion has been based on some factual observations. FireFly has a waiting list of 13 months. Engin just bought an expensive CNN machine to make his own bike parts. Kish is employing some new engineers and investing on more tooling and equipment. Dave Anderson's waiting list is off the chart, probably in RS and Vanilla territories. Groovy closed his order book for being too full. Holland increased his business significantly with more personnel and carbon products. Moots is desperately hiring more employees. Eriksen has been too busy to talk. Potts has moved to a larger place to increase production capacity. Atrain, a relatively new young builder has a waiting list of 9 months...................... I made a couple of inquiries recently with some builders (not these listed here) for some clients and some of them didn't even bother to response. Business is probably too much to care I guess. The US economy in general is doing great. The unemployment rate is relatively low. Stocks have been hitting all time highs. People with a disposable income everywhere. Base on all these observations, it does not sound like the bike industry is in any trouble to me. If anything, it will get better from now on. Not sure what is the disconnect here?

I hear you.

Being in the business it would not be cool to name names and at the risk of sounding all too cryptic I will say that not everything is rosy as it might seem.......or as rosy as we'd hope it would be.

I can tell you for sure that I speak with a lot of builders, from all different parts of the niche, and behind the scenes the reports are not so bright. In many cases things are fine (if not what they were pre-2008) but in many others there is real concern with how they are going to make it in the long run.

I think in some cases 'wait list' can be confused with 'throughput' and of course the two things are much different than one another. If the builder works on weekends and evenings while holding down another job (which many do) and they can only get a one bike a month out the door and they have 10 bikes on order the queue could be well over a year once you factor in sending it out for paint as a good number of builders do. If that same guy quits his day job those same 10 orders mean he has a queue of 6 months of less including paint. Same guy, same number of sales, much different queue, much different bottom line. So it all depends on how many go out the door and that is what puts food on the table in the end. It's also been a long standing 'tradition' in this biz for some to be very 'optimistic' when it comes to lead times as a long lead time is considered a badge of honor and something to brag about. Take a few orders but build even fewer bikes and you have a long lead time you can brag about.

In the long run we will only know how things are in retrospect and some guys will continue to be fine and others will join the long list of guys who used to be common names at shows that have since called it a day and gotten a straight 9-5 job. I for one hope that what we see going on behind the curtain slows down and reverses ASAP and that the handbuilt niche as a whole can thrive much like much of the rest of the economy seems to be doing.

I feel fortunate that I have strong support from my customers and that I don't worry about where my next meal comes from. I hope that everyone else can say the same very soon.

dave

[pdmtong]

I hear you man but going to the show will consume a whole day, which I might be better off go riding instead, especially being trapped in the middle of winter for two weeks now. I used to like winter for a change of seasons but now I am having a second thought about it. I will need to look into building a fat bike to ride on ice next year so I won't be locked out of crappy weather again. Perhaps the show will come to Cincy someday so I will not have an excuse not to attend.

It's a matter of motivation. Sure, it's an entire day, but if not now, then when? And, if not, what are the alternatives to see this level of craft? We get two bike fairs a year here - Sea Otter and whatever gets boothed at the Amgen Tour of California. Both of these are product not craft. How many handmade bikes have you seen? Even around here, they are few and far between. Even with only a cursory interest, or a low prospect of actually ordering, I think its worth going to for anyone who loves bikes...especially if easier to get to. one day is enough, unless you are planning to actually suss out a builder and talk specifics about your next custom.

[Dazza]

no need for me to add much but to say
Dave Kirk has said it all 100% on the mark according to my current opinion
and as he said, "I have a long ques = marketing spiel "

In OZ, we had one hand made show with only Aussie makers to exhibit
It was terrific
Perfect for the builders and makers of Aussie made cycling products.
It was not diluted by Shimano and Campagnolo and every importer known to man kind.
So the show was perfect for me, a one man builder who designs, makes and packs the bike I make for you. (With Joey Cosgrove painting)
The show is to exhibit the wares of the niche industry.
Plenty of other shows for the mainstream commerce to service those needs.
Any how the Aussie show was not repeated, the promoter went in a direction that the exhibitors asked not to do and it withered. (I supported it to the end but I was not in full agreement of where it was being taken)
2010 was my second and last NAHBS show, I and others could see the it was all going were we did not have need to be.

[unterhausen]

I feel guilty I haven't been back to the (Bilenky) Philly show, hopefully I can go this year. I would like to go back to NAHBS, but I'm not going to travel too far to go to it

[oldpotatoe]

I’ve commented on the weaknesses of NAHBS on Paceline before. Its formula doesn't work for a typical framebuilder. The cost of a booth and all other related expenses is way more than what he/she can afford from their yearly profits alone. On top of that is time lost making an attractive booth and bicycles that will somehow catch the eye of attendees and the press. Experience has taught pervious exhibitors that the return on their investment did not pay off. But there are more reasons for its decline than that the show is too expensive. Here are just a couple.

Most builders have essentially a local rather than a national market. While during my 40 year career I’ve sold frames and paint jobs everywhere, most of my customers came from within a 250 mile radius (the distance one can comfortably drive in a day). It makes little sense for a builder to blow their budget on a show in a city where the majority of attendees aren’t going to travel out of their time zone to work with them. And there is no guarantee they will be heard above the noise of the crowd anyway.

More regional shows with much lower costs and far fewer entry rules and regulations have blossomed in the last few years. This is where it makes sense for most builders to exhibit. The Philly Expo in particular has become a kind of replacement for builders that don’t want to show at NAHBS. Bina the organizer took event planning as a college major and her superior administrative ability shows. I went to Philly this year and asked the builder/exhibitors if they were also going to NAHBS. Almost everyone said no because of the expense or conflicts they had experienced. Been there done that there were things/people I didn’t like ain’t going back was what I heard.

What I said on Paceline a few years ago was that builders as exhibitors would be replaced with bike related companies. I’m a prophet. A national builder with a long wait list doesn’t need it, a regional builder can’t afford it (or afford it year after year) and there is not a endless supply of new builders coming in as replacements.

Mike Kone, a local guy, just did one here. Very successful w/o the NAHBS 'baggage'.

http://coloradobicycleexpo.com/

[tigoat]

It was definitely an interesting reading about the inner working of this industry from an insider. It just never occurred to me until recently that many frame builders are doing it part time. Perhaps, the problem might be related to competition and not so much about the economy. Having a sound business plan along with a good work ethic might help to sustain a long term operation. Nonetheless, it is always interesting to read some of your insightful posts, Dave. Thanks!

I hear you.

Being in the business it would not be cool to name names and at the risk of sounding all too cryptic I will say that not everything is rosy as it might seem.......or as rosy as we'd hope it would be.

I can tell you for sure that I speak with a lot of builders, from all different parts of the niche, and behind the scenes the reports are not so bright. In many cases things are fine (if not what they were pre-2008) but in many others there is real concern with how they are going to make it in the long run.

I think in some cases 'wait list' can be confused with 'throughput' and of course the two things are much different than one another. If the builder works on weekends and evenings while holding down another job (which many do) and they can only get a one bike a month out the door and they have 10 bikes on order the queue could be well over a year once you factor in sending it out for paint as a good number of builders do. If that same guy quits his day job those same 10 orders mean he has a queue of 6 months of less including paint. Same guy, same number of sales, much different queue, much different bottom line. So it all depends on how many go out the door and that is what puts food on the table in the end. It's also been a long standing 'tradition' in this biz for some to be very 'optimistic' when it comes to lead times as a long lead time is considered a badge of honor and something to brag about. Take a few orders but build even fewer bikes and you have a long lead time you can brag about.

In the long run we will only know how things are in retrospect and some guys will continue to be fine and others will join the long list of guys who used to be common names at shows that have since called it a day and gotten a straight 9-5 job. I for one hope that what we see going on behind the curtain slows down and reverses ASAP and that the handbuilt niche as a whole can thrive much like much of the rest of the economy seems to be doing.

I feel fortunate that I have strong support from my customers and that I don't worry about where my next meal comes from. I hope that everyone else can say the same very soon.

dave

[tigoat]

Yep that is the only reason why I am still debating about going to the show. Let's see what the weather will be like next weekend. I am just about going crazy for not being able to ride in two weeks due to the severe winter weather.

It's a matter of motivation. Sure, it's an entire day, but if not now, then when? And, if not, what are the alternatives to see this level of craft? We get two bike fairs a year here - Sea Otter and whatever gets boothed at the Amgen Tour of California. Both of these are product not craft. How many handmade bikes have you seen? Even around here, they are few and far between. Even with only a cursory interest, or a low prospect of actually ordering, I think its worth going to for anyone who loves bikes...especially if easier to get to. one day is enough, unless you are planning to actually suss out a builder and talk specifics about your next custom.

[ultratoad]

I think the show is fantastic and any bike nut should attend at least once.... You will see quality of workmanship that seems impossible.... I have been to the show 4 times, all West Coast.... The only thing stopping me the last couple of years has been the questionable weather.... For best results, I think the show should be held at a better time of the year OR where the weather is more conducive....

[dekindy]

Was planning to go but just looked at exhibitor list and am not very motivated to attend. It is only a 2-hour drive from Indianapolis so might go anyway if I can carpool and go with a group. Otherwise leaning towards staying home. Where are the builders? Two builders attending are from Indianapolis(Shamrock and Harvey) but I can talk to them and Foresta and Roark without going to a Show.

[Coalfield]

I've been to 2 NAHBS - early San Jose and Portland.
My guess is that this year's location isn't a motivation for many, and I was born there. Yeah, there have been some cycling events in Louisville and the original organizer is now in Indiana (I think).

Put it in Boulder/Denver, or Philly or SF Bay area or San Diego or .... and the turn-out might be better.

I also agree with the folks who commented that it's been done enough that 'the glamor has worn a bit', and 'yesterday's techno at tomorrow prices'.

Dave K's remarks are a bit sad, maybe time to buy another new custom - and I'm a 44 regular with no special needs. Since I won't be at the front of the pack at the next trendy Gran Fondo, I want bikes that not one other person has - and that doesn't mean a Trek Project bike with special paint.

I support smaller builders.

[mistermo]

Yeah, there have been some cycling events in Louisville and the original organizer is now in Indiana (I think).



DW's in KY now: http://www.donwalkercycles.com/

[fuzzalow]

Some of the comments I've made about NAHBS is talking about the overall arc of the show as far as its evolution and where I think it finds itself positioned as an exhibition in the marketplace. That's different that looking at it as to whether to go to NAHBS or not to go to NAHBS.

If you have the chance to go to NAHBS, you have to experience it. It is worth it by leaps and bounds. To be immersed in bikes like that show does is wonderful and fantastic. To dub it as "yesterday's techno at tomorrow's prices" is missing the point entirely which is just buying into the technology schtick of big-box bike manufacturers.

I attended last year and wrote about it here: Commentary on NAHBS 2014 - Aspired to Gagosian and Settled for Interbike-lite (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145648&highlight=gagosian). I freely admit I made the pilgrimage to see Dario.

[Mikej]

I went to nahbs Indy- thought it was really cool, but couldn't imagine how deep it cut into the builders pockets. I drove from Milwaukee and thought it was expensive. It seems that local to the builder shows may overtake nahbs, since they seem to be held in a gymnasium or hotel or way more affordable locations. It would seem that the current nahbs show may only last a few more years before something else come into play. I mean, how many shows can a guy do in a year, and imagine if it were in a union exhibition hall! I mean, I'd love to s e 10 fireflies, but it won't happen.

[e-RICHIE]

I attended last year and wrote about it here: Commentary on NAHBS 2014 - Aspired to Gagosian and Settled for Interbike-lite (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145648&highlight=gagosian).
I agreed with you then, and still do. My replies are on that thread link. I also agree with what Dave wrote about the expenses, the ROI, and the general toll it all takes. Once, long ago, it was new, had energy, and brought a possible collegial environment to those willing to write the checks. With time, it's become another species. These are, and would be, my opinions regardless of my years at the bench or demand for my work. It's a tough chat to have because any criticism sounds like, and could, take money out of DW's pocket. No one wants that. But as business models go, I think the show has eaten itself. On the other hand, for the cat paying his money and walking the aisles, it's a different story and a different conversation.

[FlashUNC]

Some of the comments I've made about NAHBS is talking about the overall arc of the show as far as its evolution and where I think it finds itself positioned as an exhibition in the marketplace. That's different that looking at it as to whether to go to NAHBS or not to go to NAHBS.

If you have the chance to go to NAHBS, you have to experience it. It is worth it by leaps and bounds. To be immersed in bikes like that show does is wonderful and fantastic. To dub it as "yesterday's techno at tomorrow's prices" is missing the point entirely which is just buying into the technology schtick of big-box bike manufacturers.

I attended last year and wrote about it here: Commentary on NAHBS 2014 - Aspired to Gagosian and Settled for Interbike-lite (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145648&highlight=gagosian). I freely admit I made the pilgrimage to see Dario.

Wait wait wait. You mean you didn't come just to have dinner with the rest of us geeks?

[likebikes]

NAHBS isn't really relevant anymore. Maybe in 2006/07, certainly not today.

[Coalfield]

NAHBS isn't really relevant anymore. Maybe in 2006/07, certainly not today.

I would disagree with 'not relevant', but maybe it's time to merge with Interbike now that that's open to the public. Weigh the genuine interest against the mass market.

[Burnette]

I agree with Richard Sachs that the perspective of the show, builder versus consumer, looks very different to each respective group.
As a consumer, I really enjoyed last year's NAHBS. To call the show irrelevant is to totally miss what it gets right. Where else do custom frame builders get magazine press, internet site mentions, youtube videos and countless photo images all in the same time frame as NAHBS? If you are a bike geek, you will stumble across NAHBS pics and news at some point.
Another thing, Shimano, Mavic, Fizik, King Cages, Rolf Prima (Brooke Bauer was so helpful and kind), Pro Wheel Builder, Chris King, HED, Fulcrum and more were all awesome. I got to play with Di2, hold a number of wheels and rims and got some good advice about a saddle. These vendors weren't distractors, it's bike stuff for crying out loud! There will be endless threads here about this stuff! I was able to talk to and see more things there for myself than I could ever at my local bike shops. Being able to chat with the reps was icing on the cake.
To wittle the show down by removing these wouldn't make it better. That's insane, that's crazy talk.
As for the builders, I got to meet Kristopher Henry (44bikes) and his wife, Nate Zukas (Zukas Cycles), Bill Holland (Holland Cycles), Nick Crumpton (Crumpton Cycles), Boyd Johnson (I know, wheels, but a great guy to talk to, Boyd Cycling) and many others. It was so worth the trip for me, I'll go again if my schedule opens up at the same time.
From the other perspective, the builders, I cannot say. One of my favorite builders couldn't make it last year due to cost and work load. I totally understand and respect that. Sad that NAHBS may not be the venue to be at for some, but it's still a great show.
Maybe it's time to think differently about the show model and use todays technology. Lets say a few builders buy a booth together, work it out with customer to allow their bikes that are done from que at that time to be displayed. Builders ship bikes individually to NAHBS, a coordinator sets up/displays bikes. Through a computer and on a TV screen said builders interact with booth patrons. We get to see their bikes AND get to talk to them even though they couldn't make it and had orders to get out.
Not the same as them being there but better than them and their work not being there. "Dave Anderson will be on at booth five at 11:30 am" I would freakin be there at 11:30 am. And I would be looking a his latest work, right in front of me. There's ways around this, guys/gals, you just have to look.
If you like bikes and bike stuff and you can make the show, go, it's a freakin blast. The people you'll meet, that's what will stay with you too. Go, go to the show. It's the one big whoop for us and it's fun.

[fuzzalow]

Wait wait wait. You mean you didn't come just to have dinner with the rest of us geeks?

HaHa, dinner with all of you lot was a very, very, very close second!

For anyone that has a chance to attend a NAHBS and hasn't been - GO! Meet up with other Paceliners. The politics and argy bargy of NAHBS as a business doesn't change why any bike aficionado should go to the show - good bikes, good builders and good people.

[sparky33]

My consumption choices wrt handbuilt bikes has nothing to do with the builder's attendance at NAHBS. There are a handful of established builders that I have/will purchase bikes from (regardless of their attending NAHBS) - experience tells me this works better for me.

Attending NAHBS would just be for geeking out on uber-fancy art bikes - I highly doubt it would cause me to order from a new-to-me builder. This viewpoint presents an unfortunate outlook for up and coming builders, but that's how it goes when consumers have a choice between established folks producing guaranteed excellent bikes (albeit with a premium price) and a relatively unknown (and still not inexpensive) product... even if it has the world's fanciest lugs.

I doubt I'm unique in this point of view.

[sparky33]

Mike Kone, a local guy, just did one here. Very successful w/o the NAHBS 'baggage'.

http://coloradobicycleexpo.com/

Mike is a good guy. His Boulder rando bikes met an otherwise unfulfilled demand. Does a nice job.

[Hermes_Alex]

I feel that NAHBS definitely does have a place; it's the biggest and best known of all the handmade bike shows, and that alone means that it should continue as its size makes it the most prestigious place to exhibit and the best audience draw. So long as people keep going, it should exist and maintain that reputation.

At the same time, it's still dwarfed by Interbike, etc. so I feel that measures should be taken to distance it from being just another trade show, and instead buttress the idea of the show as the premier handmade bike showcase in the US. I feel would be quite appropriate to tighten up exhibitor criteria, especially among non-framebuilders. At the risk of sounding self-serving, I'm looking at the list of component manufacturers that are going to be there, it seems like half of them are massive firms or overseas importers with no business being in a handmade show. When it comes to non-frames, it should focus on small, domestic manufacturers like it does with framebuilders. My own interest in exhibiting is curtailed considerably if I have to be squirreled away between a huge shimano/sram presence.

[Doug Fattic]

One should not confuse the health of custom framebuilding with how well NAHBS is doing. They are only loosely related. NAHBS jumping the shark doesn’t mean the craft itself is also in trouble. My collogues that have been around a long time say their order books are stable and my framebuilding class students that have started a business building frames are doing okay too.

By the way that “jumped” expression came from an episode in the 5th season of Happy Days when Fonzie jumped over a shark while on water skis. It now represents the moment when a franchise begins its decline.

NAHBS is a for-profit show owned and run by one person. It gets its primary promotion and revenue from framebuilders. It also gets money from sponsors and other bike related exhibitors. It is not a show designed by a committee of framebuilders that make sure it represents the best interests of framebuilders themselves. An individual show owner is going to 1st consider how to make maximum profit for himself. While he may be guided by certain philosophies that coincide with framebuilders’ interests, they will not be the same as those of the framebuilding community. Some of those differences would include but not be limited by high exhibit prices, strict exhibit policies (no 2 builders sharing the same booth or even merchandising other products not directly related to the builder’s frames) and so on.

What would make sense is for a group of framebuilders to organize a non-profit show themselves (and pay an administrator to run it) so its policies are not decided by only one man’s opinions protecting his income. This freedom would allow a number of ways to increase traffic like providing space for attendees to see many customer’s custom frames (if they want to bring them), a display of classic bicycles from the past and there are hundreds of students that have taken framebuilding classes that would love to show what they made if they could easily.

Doug Fattic

[raygunner]

Any feedback from any visitors to year's show?

Where is next year's going to be held?

[FlashUNC]

Any feedback from any visitors to year's show?

Where is next year's going to be held?

Back to Sacramento.

[sokyroadie]

Any feedback from any visitors to year's show?

Where is next year's going to be held?

The two times I was there I thought the show was pretty well attended and had a nice mixture of:

Custom builders
Show builders - some not very ride able
New builders
Semi "production" builders
Wheel builders
Component manufacturers
Ancillary equipment

I am sure the purists will whine, but I thought it was very interesting and a nice mix.



Jeff

[mhespenheide]

I'm pretty shocked by the relative lack of internet press coverage of NAHBS this year. Seems like, in years past, it was a highlight of the end-of-winter low. This year? The Radavist has some of the only serious coverage I've seen.

[marciero]

By the way that “jumped” expression came from an episode in the 5th season of Happy Days when Fonzie jumped over a shark while on water skis. It now represents the moment when a franchise begins its decline.



I only just heard of that expression and it's origin about a year ago. It also suggests that the thing has become a parody of itself.

[OtayBW]

I only just heard of that expression and it's origin about a year ago. It also suggests that the thing has become a parody of itself.
Ha ha! Jump the shark has jumped the shark! :banana:

[staggerwing]

Any feedback from any visitors to year's show?

Where is next year's going to be held?

I was a bit ambivalent towards attending. But it was was only 100 miles down the road from me, and figured, why not. Only previous NAHBS was Indy in 2009.

Short summary is this one was lower key, with more suppliers, less flash, fewer high end builders, and less outright wall hanger, eye candy. To my eye, attendance was significantly less than what I remember in 2009. But, that wasn't a bad thing as everybody I approached was warm, welcoming and engaging.

At the time, NAHBS Indy seemed like it was aspiring to be more of an art show, where the high end builders were put on pedestals. All the big names were mobbed by adoring fans, and it was hard to have a meaningful conversation.

Had wonderful discussions with Jeremy Sycip and Ted Wojcik, as both build the type of all arounder rigs, with room for 32's and fenders, that I'm most interested in. Still might call Ted, to see if the inexpensive rig he brought to the show is still available. Ted was also quite enamored by the bourbon selection in Kentucky.

Also had a interesting 10 minutes with Mark DiNucci. First, let me state up front, I had no idea who this guy was, and based on the interest shown by other attendees, few others did either. Very minimal setup, with just two naked, and one painted frame. The workmanship on the naked frames was simply jaw dropping, which is why I was sucked in. They weren't crazy flashy, but to my eye, and petting fingers, were without flaw. He also had a lug set there that was unlike anything I had previously seen, with socketed and pierced rear dropouts, which required specially manipulated chainstays. The man is subtle, and not a master of self promotion. Mark explained that he had worked with Specialized on getting the lugs done, and getting a run of custom manipulated tubing from Reynolds. And, that he had designed all of the lugs and had them fabricated as well. Also noted that the very trick, standoff, downtube cable stops were originally hand carved from steel stock. Even a close examination would suggest a CNC mill setup would have been more likely. He also went on a bit about frame durability and his days destruction testing at Specialized. Not knowing his background, I was unable to fully suspend my disbelief at the show. His stories just sounded tall. My bad, not his. Really nice, humble guy. Curious how deep my pockets would have to be. Not even his website offers a clue, although I've since heard that he is not big on electronic communications.

Also talked for about 15 minutes with Paolo Erzegovesi from Columbus tubing. A couple of minutes in, I realized this gent really knew his stuff, more like an engineer, and less like a marketing type. A minute or so later, it was pretty obvious we were both engineers, and we went full nerd on our ramblings; forging, cold working, tube drawing, annealing, grain structures, ad nauseum. Great fun, and enlightening. Even went over the story behind the background image for the booth. Basically, it was one of the first fully strain-gaged bikes that they tested. No telemetry at the time, so there was a companion vehicle, with outrigger and cabling. Neat stuff. Didn't find out until the end, when I got his card, that he is the managing director.

True temper and Reynolds also had booths there, but time and circumstance did not permit further investigation.

All in all, I would likely go again, if the show was within a 3-4 hour driving radius of Cincinnati. Would consider driving further, if the show was in an area and at a time conducive to some nice riding. Ashville, NC anyone. Allow I can easily afford it, $22 was a bit steep for admission. Don't see why the show needs to be in an expensive downtown location. For example, around the Cincinnati area, there are two smaller setups, the Northern Kentucky Convention Center and the Sharonville Convention Center, which are much easier to work with than the downtown Cincy operation. The Sharonville hall even has free parking.

Sorry, no photos. Left the camera at home, and was halving too much interacting to pull out the cell phone.

Anyone else have something?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . at the lack of coverage.

I went to Indy in 2009 and to Charlotte last year. There was definite "Wow" factor in Indy. I'd never been to he show and it was neat to meet some people I had heard about and see lots of definitely artistic bikes. There was also a good sized Serotta forum contingent and we had a nice dinner with about 25 people there, as I remember. There was also definitely a "rock star" atmosphere around some of the builders.

Last year we only had half a dozen Paceliners to get together and the show didn't seem to offer as much. But I think that was me more than the show. I'm sure it would have offered more if I was seriously shopping, but my finances didn't allow it and I already have my very short list of who I would buy a bike from. The trip ended up being more about seeing friends who live in NC and riding with a few fellow Paceliners as much as it was about the show. This time around the artistic bikes are nice to look at, but I really wondered how many were built just for the show and would ever see a real road. I think the artistic bent has gotten out of hand.

I'd go again if I could make it a legit day trip to, say, Boston, NYC, Hartford . . . but maybe not even then if I wasn't a serious shopper. I can get cheap deals on clothing on the Internet, and I really don't need any more product lit, t-shirts, or free gew-gaws.

BBD

[staggerwing]

But I think that was me more than the show. I'm sure it would have offered more if I was seriously shopping, but my finances didn't allow it and I already have my very short list of who I would buy a bike from.BBD

Suppose that is why I was so ambivalent about attending. I've never been a target customer for expensive bike porn. I fit just fine on anything close to 56 square, and over the past decade, there has been an explosion of niche brands capable of fulfilling my interests. With a common size, and the wonderful Paceline Group, it has been easy to play with nicer toys than I would typically purchase, without neglecting my kids college education funds.

That is why I was pleasantly surprised by this years NAHBS. Found myself gravitating towards, and talking with, folks that offered genuine mechanical innovations to the community. Money wasn't a key feature in any of my interactions.

[pdmtong]

I was a bit ambivalent towards attending. But it was was only 100 miles down the road from me, and figured, why not. Only previous NAHBS was Indy in 2009.

Short summary is this one was lower key, with more suppliers, less flash, fewer high end builders, and less outright wall hanger, eye candy. To my eye, attendance was significantly less than what I remember in 2009. But, that wasn't a bad thing as everybody I approached was warm, welcoming and engaging.

At the time, NAHBS Indy seemed like it was aspiring to be more of an art show, where the high end builders were put on pedestals. All the big names were mobbed by adoring fans, and it was hard to have a meaningful conversation.

Had wonderful discussions with Jeremy Sycip and Ted Wojcik, as both build the type of all arounder rigs, with room for 32's and fenders, that I'm most interested in. Still might call Ted, to see if the inexpensive rig he brought to the show is still available. Ted was also quite enamored by the bourbon selection in Kentucky.

Also had a interesting 10 minutes with Mark DiNucci. First, let me state up front, I had no idea who this guy was, and based on the interest shown by other attendees, few others did either. Very minimal setup, with just two naked, and one painted frame. The workmanship on the naked frames was simply jaw dropping, which is why I was sucked in. They weren't crazy flashy, but to my eye, and petting fingers, were without flaw. He also had a lug set there that was unlike anything I had previously seen, with socketed and pierced rear dropouts, which required specially manipulated chainstays. The man is subtle, and not a master of self promotion. Mark explained that he had worked with Specialized on getting the lugs done, and getting a run of custom manipulated tubing from Reynolds. And, that he had designed all of the lugs and had them fabricated as well. Also noted that the very trick, standoff, downtube cable stops were originally hand carved from steel stock. Even a close examination would suggest a CNC mill setup would have been more likely. He also went on a bit about frame durability and his days destruction testing at Specialized. Not knowing his background, I was unable to fully suspend my disbelief at the show. His stories just sounded tall. My bad, not his. Really nice, humble guy. Curious how deep my pockets would have to be. Not even his website offers a clue, although I've since heard that he is not big on electronic communications.

Also talked for about 15 minutes with Paolo Erzegovesi from Columbus tubing. A couple of minutes in, I realized this gent really knew his stuff, more like an engineer, and less like a marketing type. A minute or so later, it was pretty obvious we were both engineers, and we went full nerd on our ramblings; forging, cold working, tube drawing, annealing, grain structures, ad nauseum. Great fun, and enlightening. Even went over the story behind the background image for the booth. Basically, it was one of the first fully strain-gaged bikes that they tested. No telemetry at the time, so there was a companion vehicle, with outrigger and cabling. Neat stuff. Didn't find out until the end, when I got his card, that he is the managing director.

True temper and Reynolds also had booths there, but time and circumstance did not permit further investigation.

All in all, I would likely go again, if the show was within a 3-4 hour driving radius of Cincinnati. Would consider driving further, if the show was in an area and at a time conducive to some nice riding. Ashville, NC anyone. Allow I can easily afford it, $22 was a bit steep for admission. Don't see why the show needs to be in an expensive downtown location. For example, around the Cincinnati area, there are two smaller setups, the Northern Kentucky Convention Center and the Sharonville Convention Center, which are much easier to work with than the downtown Cincy operation. The Sharonville hall even has free parking.

Sorry, no photos. Left the camera at home, and was halving too much interacting to pull out the cell phone.

Anyone else have something?

Finally, attendee commentary instead of retrospection and speculation. Thank You!

I was not savvy about mark d. until the 40th allez project started buzzing last year.

http://redkiteprayer.com/2014/09/the-specialized-allez-reborn/

You read that and suddenly Mark is the first guy you bee-line to when the doors open.

I don't "need" custom" either, but how could anyone who enjoys cycling NOT go if NAHBS is close enough?

[Ian]

Louisville was my fourth trip to NAHBS, after Portland, Richmond and Charlotte. I wasn't planning to go this year but it turned out to be a convenient excuse to meet up with friends.

IMO, the show (as I've seen it) has never had a solid identity. "Handmade" is a big tent, and over the years the show has grown to depend more on small production shops, never mind the component manufacturers and other non-bike vendors. There were some exceptions–Mark DiNucci, Jim Kish, and Paul Brodie stood out for me. I'd like to see more of that side of "handmade" but I think those days are gone.

Also IMO, I like the promotion of new builders, but this year there was a stark difference in quality between this new crop and many of those I've seen in the past. I give anyone who wants to make a go of framebuilding a lot of credit, but there's a difference between learning to build and building frames that are show-worthy. One frame in particular had flaws that shouldn't have seen the light of day. That's no criticism of the builder, who is early in the learning curve, but it makes me wonder what the show is promoting.

Pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nc_psyclist/sets/72157650844286310/.

[gomango]

Louisville was my fourth trip to NAHBS, after Portland, Richmond and Charlotte. I wasn't planning to go this year but it turned out to be a convenient excuse to meet up with friends.

IMO, the show (as I've seen it) has never had a solid identity. "Handmade" is a big tent, and over the years the show has grown to depend more on small production shops, never mind the component manufacturers and other non-bike vendors. There were some exceptions–Mark DiNucci, Jim Kish, and Paul Brodie stood out for me. I'd like to see more of that side of "handmade" but I think those days are gone.

Also IMO, I like the promotion of new builders, but this year there was a stark difference in quality between this new crop and many of those I've seen in the past. I give anyone who wants to make a go of framebuilding a lot of credit, but there's a difference between learning to build and building frames that are show-worthy. One frame in particular had flaws that shouldn't have seen the light of day. That's no criticism of the builder, who is early in the learning curve, but it makes me wonder what the show is promoting.

Pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nc_psyclist/sets/72157650844286310/.

Thanks for the pics. Really enjoyable.

I keep seeing pics of the Shamrock Cycles bikes and I really like what I am seeing from the various photos. Any additional insights after seeing them in person or didn't you look that closely?

TIA

[aosty]

http://drawception.com/pub/panels/2012/4-6/Od1DXgKyEe-2.png

[Ian]

Thanks for the pics. Really enjoyable.

I keep seeing pics of the Shamrock Cycles bikes and I really like what I am seeing from the various photos. Any additional insights after seeing them in person or didn't you look that closely?

TIA

I've looked closely at his bikes the last couple of years and have a good friend who rides one. My impressions: Smart design and solid fabrication skills. His paint has always been somewhat plain (not a criticism coming from a guy who rides black and white bikes) but this year he got a lot of well-deserved attention for the finishes on his frames.

[gomango]

I've looked closely at his bikes the last couple of years and have a good friend who rides one. My impressions: Smart design and solid fabrication skills. His paint has always been somewhat plain (not a criticism coming from a guy who rides black and white bikes) but this year he got a lot of well-deserved attention for the finishes on his frames.

Heh Thanks.

I don't have an order for a bike yet, as I am hip deep in gear.

Not so far down the road though.......

[mhespenheide]

...There were some exceptions–Mark DiNucci, Jim Kish, and Paul Brodie stood out for me...

Pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nc_psyclist/sets/72157650844286310/.

Ian,

Thanks for the photos. The detail work on the DiNucci is drool-worthy. If you don't mind me linking your photo directly, it's here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nc_psyclist/16552653767/in/set-72157650844286310

[staggerwing]

Ian,

Thanks for the photos. The detail work on the DiNucci is drool-worthy. If you don't mind me linking your photo directly, it's here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nc_psyclist/16552653767/in/set-72157650844286310

Every single joint on his naked rigs had impossibly thin braze seams. No more than the thickness of a typical business card. Judging from the raw set that he brought to the show, there wasn't much extra meat on his lugs either. Even jigged up, things start to swell and move with the application of heat. If you have ever played with metal joining of any kind, and brazing in particular, it is obvious those were put together by a master. Apparently, he has been active since the early 70's, first with Strawberry, then with Merz.

Not obvious on first inspection, although you can get a visual hint in the second image of the top tube/seat tube juncture, is a projecting style line, or ridge, running parallel to the seat tube. For that frame, there were matching style lines on the top of the fork crown, more easily felt with a fingertip than seen visually.

Check out his lug set too. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dinuccicycles/) Apparently those were cooked up for the Allez respiff that he guided. Now that is over, Mark retains the rights to the lugs and tubing. The rear drops, chainstay cross brace, and the tubular, rectangular cross-section, rear brake bridge are functional eye candy. Sadly, he is not making the lug set available to other builders. Not to mention, they are only compatible with a specially manipulate Reynolds tube set.

[Wilkinson4]

DiNucci's are lust worthy. I remember a thread years ago. Your painter is is like your doctor, or maybe tax attorney. They see what is really going on. IIRC, the thread was about how much cleanup did certain builders frames require.

The consensus was DiNucci's bikes before his comeback were the cleanest that the painter had seen, ever. No work required. I can't remember who.

mIKE

[gmonster]

Video look at the show here...

https://twitter.com/RoadHolland/status/576420417906167808

[Gustave]

This is Jonathan from Road Holland and I'll post commentary as an exhibitor who was there:

- The show is well organized. Kudos to Don Walker on that. That's not always the case with these kind of things.

- It seemed much less well-attended than last year. Undoubtedly. Perhaps it was the Thursday snow that kept some people away or maybe the KY / Ohio region crowd is not a NAHBS kind of crowd. However, we do sell quite a bit in that region so I don't think it's the latter.

- I usually walk away from these shows with 3 or 4 to-die-for bikes in my head. I walked away with none this year.

- I know it’s important for the big guys to come (Campagnola, Shimano, Fizik, etc.). However, it seemed that these companies had massive amounts of floor space. To their credit, the component manufacturers did use it to highlight some of the builders' frames that used their wares. However, it seems against the spirit of a "handmade” bike show for them to be there. It doesn't matter to us - I'm just thinking from a builder perspective and from the perspective of some of the smaller hardware companies.

- Of course, it's a bike show. However, there are a lot of interesting companies who are making accessories and apparel that complement bikes. It might be heresy to say this, but I see a lot more inventiveness on the apparel and accessories side these days than on the frame side.

- Food and drink options are important and the pickings were slim. There was a place downstairs but it was painfully slow. Panera was a trek away but thankfully it was there. The concession stand in the hall served typical concession crap - chicken fingers, burgers, hot dogs, fries. I don't understand how you can have a bike show and not have some more upscale / healthy offerings. For reference, at the Philly Bike Expo, there were food trucks and a coffee bar. While they were not the best, it was a step in the right direction. As exhibitors, we need quickly available items that are low mess and low aroma. Caffeine and sugar are musts to get through the long days.

It's in Sacramento next year and will be in February. I don't understand that. If anything, it should be later when people are thinking more about bikes - especially so when it's on the East Coast. Maybe having it later pushes it too close to Sea Otter Classic but I think the exhibitors are much different.

Bottom line...I felt this year's NAHBS was going through the motions.

Jonathan

[mistermo]

I've looked closely at his bikes the last couple of years and have a good friend who rides one. My impressions: Smart design and solid fabrication skills. His paint has always been somewhat plain (not a criticism coming from a guy who rides black and white bikes) but this year he got a lot of well-deserved attention for the finishes on his frames.

I mean this with all proper respect, but Tim, at Shamrock, has an amazing painter in Mike Corby. Mike made his name custom painting helmets for Indycar, NASCAR, and I believe even some F1 drivers. In the last few years, he's turned his attention to bike frames, specifically Shamrock's bikes. Shamrock has consistently displayed some of the most amazing paint jobs at NAHBS. Last year, there was a cross bike painted in the colors and style of the Norwegian flag that was another stunner. If you want a "team issue" Shamrock frame, then perhaps the standard issue orange might be considered plain. However, the Shamrock's I've seen rolling around, are anything but.

[Ian]

I mean this with all proper respect, but Tim, at Shamrock, has an amazing painter in Mike Corby. Mike made his name custom painting helmets for Indycar, NASCAR, and I believe even some F1 drivers. In the last few years, he's turned his attention to bike frames, specifically Shamrock's bikes. Shamrock has consistently displayed some of the most amazing paint jobs at NAHBS. Last year, there was a cross bike painted in the colors and style of the Norwegian flag that was another stunner. If you want a "team issue" Shamrock frame, then perhaps the standard issue orange might be considered plain. However, the Shamrock's I've seen rolling around, are anything but.

Here is a shot of that bike: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nc_psyclist/13195058244/in/set-72157642438492975.

I take your point. Most of what I've seen have been pretty restrained finishes, but going back through some shots from previous shows I'm reminded of others that are a little more flamboyant. And the quality is consistently good.