The truth will be ugly, Cookson says as CIRC report looms

[Tony T]

The truth will be ugly, Cookson says as CIRC report looms (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/02/21/uk-cycling-cookson-idUKKBN0LP0DS20150221)

(Reuters) - Cycling should be ready to face an uncomfortable truth when the sport's Independent Reform Commission (CIRC) publishes its report in the coming weeks, said the president of the governing body.

"I don't think there will be a lot of new revelations because I think we have a pretty good idea of how widespread the problem was," said Cookson.

[nm87710]

The truth will be ugly, Cookson says as CIRC report looms (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/02/21/uk-cycling-cookson-idUKKBN0LP0DS20150221)

(Reuters) - Cycling should be ready to face an uncomfortable truth when the sport's Independent Reform Commission (CIRC) publishes its report in the coming weeks, said the president of the governing body.

"I don't think there will be a lot of new revelations because I think we have a pretty good idea of how widespread the problem was," said Cookson.


New leadership. Same denial of the current reality.

[dcama5]

New leadership. Same denial of the current reality. Change is only a figment of Cookson's imagination.

I would imagine that this comment will get a lot of negative responses, so please spare me the rage. Just a simple, "I don't think so" will work. However, after all these years, I think Lance should and will get his wins back. Here's why: Being a respiratory/pulmonary clinical mgr in an large (48 bed) ICU, I understand the physiology of this EPO and oxygen delivery doping. Some have written that the fact that many were doping does not create a level playing field because different genetic types benefit differently from the doping. That's true, but irrelevant. The crime is in the use of EPO, not how much you benefit from it. Every serious contender for the TDF yellow jersey back then was a doper, and that also goes for the years before and after. Why exclude one racer just because he happened to be the biggest winner of all the dopers?

[oldpotatoe]

I would imagine that this comment will get a lot of negative responses, so please spare me the rage. Just a simple, "I don't think so" will work. However, after all these years, I think Lance should and will get his wins back. Here's why: Being a respiratory/pulmonary clinical mgr in an large (48 bed) ICU, I understand the physiology of this EPO and oxygen delivery doping. Some have written that the fact that many were doping does not create a level playing field because different genetic types benefit differently from the doping. That's true, but irrelevant. The crime is in the use of EPO, not how much you benefit from it. Every serious contender for the TDF yellow jersey back then was a doper, and that also goes for the years before and after. Why exclude one racer just because he happened to be the biggest winner of all the dopers?

Here we go again.

BTW, I get no 'rage' from nm87710's comment, just a recognition that doping is still going on.

[dcama5]

Here we go again.

I guess "Here we go again" is about as good as "I don't think so"

[dcama5]

Old Potatoe, are you sure it is still going on? The power numbers are lower. I'm not saying you're wrong, but what leads you to say that?

[Tony T]

From Dan Wuori's twitter:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-Y3Oa8CMAAwy0O.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Old Potatoe, are you sure it is still going on? The power numbers are lower. I'm not saying you're wrong, but what leads you to say that?

Still plenty of riders who are nobody's, then have spectacular results, then disappear. All these guys have MDs, they all know what's legal, legal in small amounts and what's illegal.

[oldpotatoe]

I guess "Here we go again" is about as good as "I don't think so"

LA won't be reinstated because he was(is) a manipulative prick and the 'capo' of 'capos' of doping in cycling.

[dcama5]

Still plenty of riders who are nobody's, then have spectacular results, then disappear. All these guys have MDs, they all know what's legal, legal in small amounts and what's illegal.

You may be right. I have wondered why Contador has surged back to the forefront (I apologize to Contador fans) but he was obviously a doper and an unrepentant doper (Mexican beef imported through Spain to France during the TDF) Bulls*it! Clenbuterol has been used for decades by dopers, not for the bronchodilator effect, but for the anabolic side effects.

I don't know, that's the bottom line. However, many older racers are saying that today's peloton is mostly clean and you do not need to dope in today's peloton to win.

[oldpotatoe]

You may be right. I have wondered why Contador has surged back to the forefront (I apologize to Contador fans) but he was obviously a doper and an unrepentant doper (Mexican beef imported through Spain to France during the TDF) Bulls*it! Clenbuterol has been used for decades by dopers, not for the bronchodilator effect, but for the anabolic side effects.

I don't know, that's the bottom line. However, many older racers are saying that today's peloton is mostly clean and you do not need to dope in today's peloton to win.

It's probably cleaner but I think it's the stuff of domestiques largely as they try to get the results to stay on a team, to make their €, then leave. But the big boys know how to work the system. Not done on water and bread.

[jr59]

I don't know, that's the bottom line. However, many older racers are saying that today's peloton is mostly clean and you do not need to dope in today's peloton to win.

And you would expect them to say what? Yea I'm doping and nobody can catch me?

For over 100 years the TDF has been a dopers race. Pro sports is entertainment, it's not clean!

[dcama5]

And you would expect them to say what? Yea I'm doping and nobody can catch me?

For over 100 years the TDF has been a dopers race. Pro sports is entertainment, it's not clean!

I know, everyone knows that. It's no sudden revelation. However, your cynicism may be just your own habit, and just maybe, just maybe, the peloton is changing for the cleaner and the better. Again, the bottom line is I ( and you) do not really know. I just know that the power numbers are more realistic and many are saying it's a cleaner sport.

[jr59]

I know, everyone knows that. It's no sudden revelation. However, your cynicism may be just your own habit, and just maybe, just maybe, the peloton is changing for the cleaner and the better. Again, the bottom line is I ( and you) do not really know. I just know that the power numbers are more realistic and many are saying it's a cleaner sport.

Maybe, but maybe I'll flap my arms and fly too. History is not on your side.

With enough money involved, pros will find designer drugs that are ahead of the tests for the drugs. Again, history shows us this. LA, A-Rod, Bonds, Contador and to many others to list in every pro sport.

So maybe it is habit, but a HUNDRED YEAR trend, does not end b/c leadership changes. Most of the same coaches are the same, the Drs are mostly the same,the RDs are mostly the same....but they all have seen the light?

Sorry I'm not a believer in fairy tales.

[dcama5]

Maybe, but maybe I'll flap my arms and fly too. History is not on your side.

With enough money involved, pros will find designer drugs that are ahead of the tests for the drugs. Again, history shows us this. LA, A-Rod, Bonds, Contador and to many others to list in every pro sport.

So maybe it is habit, but a HUNDRED YEAR trend, does not end b/c leadership changes. Most of the same coaches are the same, the Drs are mostly the same,the RDs are mostly the same....but they all have seen the light?

Sorry I'm not a believer in fairy tales.

Again you may be right. The real truth though is that YOU DO NOT KNOW. It's just speculation supported by your particular view of the world and what you think is realistic and not realistic.

What I'm saying is that, keeping in mind that the things you say about history are true, the peloton may be getting much cleaner than before. Also, don't assume that the dopers are all that far ahead of the testers. That is just a general opinion that is considered true and "street wise" without any real understanding of how sophisticated the testers, and the biological passport is.

[aramis]

They're probably using xenon gas therapy which was legal until a short time ago. There's also other drugs we probably don't know about yet. I'm not saying these guys aren't amazing and that there aren't clean guys out there, but to think the sport is "clean" is a bit naive.

[dcama5]

They're probably using xenon gas therapy which was legal until a short time ago. There's also other drugs we probably don't know about yet. I'm not saying these guys aren't amazing and that there aren't clean guys out there, but to think the sport is "clean" is a bit naive.

I hope you aren't suggesting that I think the sport is clean. I didn't say that. Can you find anywhere in my posts where I said the sport is clean? No, I didn't think so. Obviously, Astana just showed us three or four positives. Genetic doping is the next thing on the horizon, not the weird stuff like Xenon gas or perfluorocarbons. Yes, there will always be the motivation to cheat. However, in my opinion, the peloton is getting cleaner.

[shovelhd]

I would imagine that this comment will get a lot of negative responses, so please spare me the rage. Just a simple, "I don't think so" will work. However, after all these years, I think Lance should and will get his wins back. Here's why: Being a respiratory/pulmonary clinical mgr in an large (48 bed) ICU, I understand the physiology of this EPO and oxygen delivery doping. Some have written that the fact that many were doping does not create a level playing field because different genetic types benefit differently from the doping. That's true, but irrelevant. The crime is in the use of EPO, not how much you benefit from it. Every serious contender for the TDF yellow jersey back then was a doper, and that also goes for the years before and after. Why exclude one racer just because he happened to be the biggest winner of all the dopers?

65% of the top ten is not every serious contender.

[joosttx]

This big reveal is if the game was fixed (read: UCI involvement) during the LA era.

[Tandem Rider]

This big reveal is if the game was fixed (read: UCI involvement) during the LA era.

Any doubt???

[earlfoss]

This report should be a fun read. I'm interested to see just how much they put out there and if it lives up to Cookson's hype.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[victoryfactory]

Any flawed sport either because of problems with violence, drugs,
changing tastes of the public etc will fade away.
When advertisers back out, the sport dies and is replaced by something
new.
Boxing, pro wrestling etc. Pro cycling might be on that list.
A "talented" leadership can sidestep and prolong the demise while
issuing denials and new controls, optimistic studies etc.
But if they don't actually succeed, the sport will go when they can't find
sponsors who can tolerate the negative public opinion.

As fans and riders its up to us to enjoy and support the sport without tying
our experience of cycling to the rise and fall of the pro peloton if it comes
to that. Cynical? maybe. But I'm tired of this constant situation. On the
one hand enjoying the thrills of big time racing and then having to endure the
enevitable doubt and disbelief and sarcasm after every result is posted.

I love big time racing and I hope they can fix it in time.

VF

[JMacII]

Why do cycling fans care so much about the sport being "clean"? NFL players routinely get 4 game bans for PEDs. No one seems to care. The whole sport is juiced. As a cycling fan I care, but not with the near-religious devotion/fanaticism some muster. The sport has never been clean, so it's not like the modern champions have ruined the purity of a bygone era. Eddy himself was pinched at one point. C'est la guerre!

[FlashUNC]

Why do cycling fans care so much about the sport being "clean"?

One example amongst many...

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31200000/Tom-Simpson-30-November-1937-13-July-1967-celebrities-who-died-young-31205079-438-318.jpg

[jr59]

Any flawed sport either because of problems with violence, drugs,
changing tastes of the public etc will fade away.
When advertisers back out, the sport dies and is replaced by something
new.
Boxing, pro wrestling etc. Pro cycling might be on that list.
A "talented" leadership can sidestep and prolong the demise while
issuing denials and new controls, optimistic studies etc.
But if they don't actually succeed, the sport will go when they can't find
sponsors who can tolerate the negative public opinion.

As fans and riders its up to us to enjoy and support the sport without tying
our experience of cycling to the rise and fall of the pro peloton if it comes
to that. Cynical? maybe. But I'm tired of this constant situation. On the
one hand enjoying the thrills of big time racing and then having to endure the
enevitable doubt and disbelief and sarcasm after every result is posted.

I love big time racing and I hope they can fix it in time.

VF


It hasn't seem to effected US football at all. Drugs, killing of people, murder, and many others. Still is popular as ever. It's entertainment. See pro cycling as that and it will be fine.

Like another posted, as a football fan, we just want to know when we can get the player back.

Pro cycling is it's own worse enemy. Why air it's own dirty laundry? "are you not entertained"

[victoryfactory]

[QUOTE=jr59;1713381]It hasn't seem to effected US football at all. Drugs, killing of people, murder, and many others. Still is popular as ever. It's entertainment. See pro cycling as that and it will be fine.

Like another posted, as a football fan, we just want to know when we can get the player back.

Pro cycling is it's own worse enemy. Why air it's own dirty laundry? "are you not entertained"[/QUOTE

Because football is so big in the USA, it's issues are taking much longer to
fester. But I think youth football will decline and the concussion issue and
brain damage stuff are very troubling. That's why you're not allowed to hit QB's any more. They are
taking steps to make the game safer ( at least for the QB's kickers and kick returners so far.
IMO any sport that features constant pounding, beating and violence will have to
change or go away eventually.
Oh, I forgot about MMA.... hmmm I must have been dreaming.
VF

[dcama5]

Why do cycling fans care so much about the sport being "clean"? NFL players routinely get 4 game bans for PEDs. No one seems to care. The whole sport is juiced. As a cycling fan I care, but not with the near-religious devotion/fanaticism some muster. The sport has never been clean, so it's not like the modern champions have ruined the purity of a bygone era. Eddy himself was pinched at one point. C'est la guerre!

True, but then why did Lance lose his seven wins? After all, he doped, but as you point out, so did a whole host of other pros throughout history. I guess the question to ask yourself, is: what if this was your son? He just happens to be genetically gifted and is crazy fast. He enters the pro ranks, not to dope but to race. The young guys aren't hardened criminals, they are cyclists with talent and they want to race, not dope. The doping routines do have health risks beyond sacrificing one's morals. Just saying: "To Hell with it, let them dope." exposes every young talent to an unscrupulous team manager that is looking at wins, and only wins.

[e-RICHIE]

True, but then why did Lance lose his seven wins? After all, he doped, but as you point out, so did a whole host of other pros throughout history. I guess the question to ask yourself, is: what if this was your son? He just happens to be genetically gifted and is crazy fast. He enters the pro ranks, not to dope but to race. The young guys aren't hardened criminals, they are cyclists with talent and they want to race, not dope. The doping routines do have health risks beyond sacrificing one's morals. Just saying: "To Hell with it, let them dope." exposes every young talent to an unscrupulous team manager that is looking at wins, and only wins.

Welcome to cycling at the professional level, going back well over 100 years atmo.

[JMacII]

http://i61.tinypic.com/1h2dg4.jpg Just saying: "To Hell with it, let them dope." exposes every young talent to an unscrupulous team manager that is looking at wins, and only wins.


I'm not saying "to hell with it." There should be testing. And bans (though maybe not two years for first offense). My point was just that cycling, seemingly alone amongst sports, seems to want immolation for every offense. There's a weird moral outrage attached to doping in cycling you don't find in other sports. Look at NASCAR, cars fail inspection. NFL as already discussed. Even baseball has less angst about doping than cycling. Lance was like the Barry Bonds of cycling. We all knew his performances weren't natural, and many/most of us were totally into it. It's entertainment, not religion. Lance is a raging a-hole and that's why I don't like him. He ruined other people's lives to conceal his cheating. But the cheating itself? Meh. Just my $.02.

[Black Dog]

True, but then why did Lance lose his seven wins? After all, he doped, but as you point out, so did a whole host of other pros throughout history. I guess the question to ask yourself, is: what if this was your son? He just happens to be genetically gifted and is crazy fast. He enters the pro ranks, not to dope but to race. The young guys aren't hardened criminals, they are cyclists with talent and they want to race, not dope. The doping routines do have health risks beyond sacrificing one's morals. Just saying: "To Hell with it, let them dope." exposes every young talent to an unscrupulous team manager that is looking at wins, and only wins.

This is the business of sports, all professional sports. It is a business, people will be exploited and people will cheat to get ahead, keep up, or reduce their losses. When enough of this happens then cheating becomes the price of entry, not just the price of winning. This is not right, it does not have to be this way, but it is a part of human nature and slowing or stoping it will always be an ongoing battle.

[stephenmarklay]

LA won't be reinstated because he was(is) a manipulative prick and the 'capo' of 'capos' of doping in cycling.

I tend to agree with this. Lance's big undoing was that he was a prick. From all accounts more than just a prick actually. Tyler H. even said he was hacking into his computer. He was a powerful conspirator and manipulated the sport and potentially outcomes. I don’t dislike him for doping but everything else I do.

I was listening to a weightlifting podcast and almost the exact same words were uttered from that governing body. In fact they are even saying that you are now guilty by association. If you hang out or train with a doper than you will be guilty of doping.

I am not sure what can be done. I also agree with the the comment that its the taking of EPO not the success of it. So EPO in principle is no worse than Clenbuterol or even stimulants. Its the principle.

[Stephen2014]

There needs to be life bans. Simple.



Or all the team managers need to get together and declared that no ex-dopers will ever be allowed in their team. So if the pissweak 2 year bans continue a cheat will have nowhere to go after the 2 years.

[bikingshearer]

I'm not saying "to hell with it." There should be testing. And bans (though maybe not two years for first offense). My point was just that cycling, seemingly alone amongst sports, seems to want immolation for every offense. There's a weird moral outrage attached to doping in cycling you don't find in other sports. Look at NASCAR, cars fail inspection. NFL as already discussed. Even baseball has less angst about doping than cycling. Lance was like the Barry Bonds of cycling. We all knew his performances weren't natural, and many/most of us were totally into it. It's entertainment, not religion. Lance is a raging a-hole and that's why I don't like him. He ruined other people's lives to conceal his cheating. But the cheating itself? Meh. Just my $.02.

The fact that Lance tried so hard to ruin other people's lives is what separates him from Barry Bonds and other dopers in sports. It is also what makes him deserve all the sh*t that has rained down on him and will continue to rain down on him. He seems to have a character flaw that makes it impossible for him to do the right thing and accept responsibility for his own misdeeds unless and until he is staring down the proverbial gun barrel - his latest "my girlfriend was driving" baloney is a prime example.

I agree that the doping itself is minor compared to the hell he deliberately put other people through - and seemed to enjoy putting other people through - to protect his dirty little not-so-secret. Barry Bonds was a total a-hole. A-Rod was and remains a slightly less total a-hole. Bill Romanowski's pro football career was one extended exercise in 'roid rage. But none of them tried to destroy others to protect their image. (Romanowski did some real damage to teammates on the practice field, but that was spur-of-the-moment steroid-induced insanity, not a premeditated, cold, calculated effort to destroy someone's career of the sort Lance indulged in.)

Lance really does stand alone. Not even Richard Virenque is in his league, and I think Virenque is a whinny worm and an example of the crassest hypocracy, both his own and that of the French fandom and press who still see him as having been great.

[djdj]

I tend to agree with this. Lance's big undoing was that he was a prick. From all accounts more than just a prick actually. Tyler H. even said he was hacking into his computer.

In Lance's defense, he thought it was the computer of Tyler's twin.

[happycampyer]

In Lance's defense, he thought it was the computer of Tyler's twin.

Maybe it was Lance's chimeric twin who hacked into Tyler's computer.

[JMacII]

The fact that Lance tried so hard to ruin other people's lives is what separates him from Barry Bonds and other dopers in sports...






Agree with everything you say. Lance is probably a sociopath.

[Elefantino]

Agree with everything you say. Lance is probably a sociopath.
Probably?

[dancinkozmo]

a sociopath on a bike....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YL04v-J5U

[joco]

I tend to agree with this. Lance's big undoing was that he was a prick. From all accounts more than just a prick actually. Tyler H. even said he was hacking into his computer. He was a powerful conspirator and manipulated the sport and potentially outcomes. I don’t dislike him for doping but everything else I do.

I was listening to a weightlifting podcast and almost the exact same words were uttered from that governing body. In fact they are even saying that you are now guilty by association. If you hang out or train with a doper than you will be guilty of doping.

I am not sure what can be done. I also agree with the the comment that its the taking of EPO not the success of it. So EPO in principle is no worse than Clenbuterol or even stimulants. Its the principle.
A prick yes, but the court of law shouldn't take that into account.