a legitimate criticism of the time vxrs. coauthored by cpg and dbrk

[stevep]

in the interest of civility and t put an end to this thread i have written a legitimate criticism of the time vxrs translink post set-up from a couple of members.
from cpg:
i am offended that an advertisement of this product claims with no proof offered that this setup which i have not seen and do not understand does not contain scientific proof of effectiveness. it is clear to me that it cannot work...even though many of the top european professional teams use a similar system to maximize their performance. to me this is bogus. also note that this system was used 50 years ago also ( possible a red herring but i am not certain )
from dbrk: i, also, am offended by the advertisement. i have in my life never seen an ad that affected me so much. rene herse or grant peterson never used a translink and they represent the pinnacle of bicycle design. i have never seen the mechanism myself, i do not race and dont really know how it works but still believe that it is marketing hype and it would not make me ride like tom boonen probably.
i hope this will put this to rest.

[Argos]

That was funny. I'm glad those guys have a great sense of humor, otherwise we'd ahve a 9 page fight by lunchtime! :D

[e-RICHIE]

stevep-issimo this is really what you need. (http://cgi.ebay.com/MASI-GRAN-CRITERIUM-by-RICHARD-SACHS_W0QQitemZ6619151970QQcategoryZ420QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[Climb01742]

perhaps the key point here: there's the ad. then there's the bike. it is a suspect ad. one of many in the bike biz. and sadly, one of many many in every biz. but the ad and the bike are two different things. and to be fair, the bike isn't designed with any of us in mind. the fact that putz's like me have one is a fluke of economics. i just don't want the bike to get tarnished by the ad.

[e-RICHIE]

the only valid ad for a bicycle would read:
"we've done our job. now get fit and do yours atmo."
"fit" would be a double entendre* dontcha know...








* french for two entendres

[sspielman]

the only valid ad for a bicycle would read:
"we've done our job. now get fit and do yours atmo."
"fit" would be a double entendre* dontcha know...








* french for two entendres


You had to mention both French and fit in the same post, didn't you?

[stevep]

ri(t)chie.
what is that frame made out of?
you sucked my man mo in by showing him that thing...
now hes a total junkie.
not me. i need bikes with 10 gears ( in the back )


ttttt... cut and paste these t's over any misplaced t as they will then disappear. it is a computer glitch. cant be fixed

[Bill Bove]

In the intrest of bringing this thread back down into the gutter where they are much more fun I will state that I am offended by the good Douglas' assertion that Grant Petersen represents the pinacle of bicycle design. Oh sure he has his proponents for his bikes, designed for the way he and his ilk ride but they are not for me. I like sti/ergo, I like clipless pedals, I like plastic based saddles, I like clothes made from oil. I don't mind having different types of bikes for different types of riding. I do not want to ride one bike for every ride wearing a searsucker shirt spinning on platform pedals with a piece of plywood screwed onto them so that I don't have to change out of my Chucks.

[e-RICHIE]

<><> that Grant Peterson represents the pinacle of bicycle design.


it's petersen cheers

[Bill Bove]

it's petersen cheers
Duly noted and corrected.
The spelling naxi's are back :confused:
Back to the gutter...

Oh yeah, I don't think a glob of beeswax is the solution to all my bikes rattles.

[FlaRider]

With due respect to all, the Time VXRS is probably the finest bike I have ever owned, and, trust me, I have owned many, many fine bikes, including some built by esteemed builders of fine lugged steel frames who post on this forum. For me that bike represents absolute perfection. Its ride is supple and comfortable without feeling "dead. The bike accelerates immediately when I stomp on the pedals. It corners and descends brilliantly. It is what a "race bike" should be. I am completely unfazed by the advertisement. How many builders, including those who post on this forum, do not resort to "marketing hype" of varying degrees to increase sales???

[e-RICHIE]

With due respect to all, the Time VXRS is probably the finest bike I have ever owned, and, trust me, I have owned many, many fine bikes, including some built by esteemed builders of fine lugged steel frames who post on this forum. For me that bike represents absolute perfection. Its ride is supple and comfortable without feeling "dead. The bike accelerates immediately when I stomp on the pedals. It corners and descends brilliantly. It is what a "race bike" should be. I am completely unfazed by the advertisement. How many builders, including those who post on this forum, do not resort to "marketing hype" of varying degrees to increase sales???


three or four?

[bostondrunk]

Does Serotta provide scientific data for every claim they make for their frames?? For their custom drawn super tubing?
Do you guys take offense when you see ads for the energy drinks, etc.?
How the hell does some idiot get offended by an ad for a bicycle because it claims to be stiffer??? man oh man......atmo mp imho bro

[e-RICHIE]

Does Serotta provide scientific data for every claim they make for their frames?? For their custom drawn super tubing?
Do you guys take offense when you see ads for the energy drinks, etc.?
How the hell does some idiot get offended by an ad for a bicycle because it claims to be stiffer??? man oh man......atmo mp imho bro


i believe -
(http://www.onegirlstrash.net/images/twizzlers_shirt.JPG) TWIZZLERS MAKES MOUTHS HAPPY©™®

[DavidK]

Strangely, this whole gutter bunfight has done more to make me book a trial ride of a Time frame and to put on hold the Legend Ti I was set on than anyone could possibly realise.

If the VXRS is as good as a few of you imply, then this may be the greatest thing the Serotta forum has done for me. For that, I may well thank you. Of course, if my test ride of the VXRS does not compare to a test ride of a Legend in 10 days time, then I'm just going to be even happier with that choice.

Thanks for additional options anyhow.

Oh, and I haven't even seen the advert. Who knows what to make of it.

[Johny]

This is bizarre. I thought cpg and dbrk love French bikes and most of you don't...

[bostondrunk]

This is bizarre. I thought cpg and dbrk love French bikes and most of you don't...

Johny-san,
They like 'french-fit', not french bikes (well, maybe some french bikes, with steel tubing, toe clips and quill stems)

[Dr. Doofus]

french fit

http://www.sixtiescity.com/Events/Images/misc076.jpg

[davids]

three or four?
Is that a rhetorical question?

[cpg]

perhaps the key point here: there's the ad. then there's the bike. it is a suspect ad. one of many in the bike biz. and sadly, one of many many in every biz. but the ad and the bike are two different things. and to be fair, the bike isn't designed with any of us in mind. the fact that putz's like me have one is a fluke of economics. i just don't want the bike to get tarnished by the ad.


Agreed. The ad reminds me of the old saying "Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory." The bike is a fine bike but it isn't because of the translink. Some might think I don't understand the whole thing but nothing could be farther from the truth. But offended? Sorry to disappoint but I'm not. I am guilty of applying a scientific look at the dubious claim. My bad!

Curt

[taz-t]

Johny-san,
They like 'french-fit', not french bikes (well, maybe some french bikes, with steel tubing, toe clips and quill stems)

I like

french bikes
french kiss
french toast
french dip
french fries
french blue
french cuffs
3 french hens
french horn
french maids
french onion soup
french press
french poodles
french doors
french vanilla
French's Mustard
Mr. French
Frenchie

but not French dressing... go figure?

- taz

[andy mac]

I like

french bikes
french kiss
french toast
french dip
french fries
french blue
french cuffs
3 french hens
french horn
french maids
french onion soup
french press
french poodles
french doors
french vanilla
French's Mustard
Mr. French
Frenchie

but not French dressing... go figure?

- taz


we don't have to call them a 'freedom horn' anymore?

[CNote]

I like

freedom bikes
freedom kiss
freedom toast
freedom dip
freedom fries
freedom blue
freedom cuffs
3 freedom hens
freedom horn
freedom maids
freedom onion soup
freedom press
freedom poodles
freedom doors
freedom vanilla
Freedom's Mustard
Mr. Freedom
Freedomie

but not Freedom dressing... go figure?

- taz
.

[sspielman]

Agreed. The ad reminds me of the old saying "Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory." The bike is a fine bike but it isn't because of the translink. Some might think I don't understand the whole thing but nothing could be farther from the truth. But offended? Sorry to disappoint but I'm not. I am guilty of applying a scientific look at the dubious claim. My bad!

Curt

I fail to see how criticising an ad and product for a feature that you did not even understand can be considered a "scientific look". It is very clear in the earlier posts that you did not know how the translink was constructed.

[Sandy]

Relax all. It is only a seatpost.


Sandy

PS- Thanks Climb. :)

[Climb01742]

Relax all. It is only a stem.


Sandy

actually it's a seatpost. :beer:

[andy mac]

It’s hard to write an ad for a product especially one’s with no real or tangible product differentiation.

Eg. Gasoline, Pepsi vs Coke, Samsung vs sharp LCD TVs, beer, many computers, Hyundai vs Kia, Merlin vs Serotta vs Seven ti bikes etc etc etc…

Often companies will pick up on a small detail and try to make that the difference. The thinking is something like ‘wow, if they go to that much trouble over something as minor as a seat post they must really care about the important stuff’.

My observation as a bike fan and an ad writer, with a few exceptions, the best brains usually aren’t working on bike ads. Bike companies don’t have the $$. The people that end up doing bike ads often don’t know much about bikes - they just write what the manufactures tell them.

[bluesea]

I like French twists. Blonde French twists.

[vaxn8r]

Strangely, this whole gutter bunfight has done more to make me book a trial ride of a Time frame and to put on hold the Legend Ti I was set on than anyone could possibly realise.

If the VXRS is as good as a few of you imply, then this may be the greatest thing the Serotta forum has done for me. For that, I may well thank you. Of course, if my test ride of the VXRS does not compare to a test ride of a Legend in 10 days time, then I'm just going to be even happier with that choice.

Thanks for additional options anyhow.

Oh, and I haven't even seen the advert. Who knows what to make of it.
Get one of each :) They excel at slightly different things but it is noticeable. Good luck.

[DavidK]

Get one of each :) They excel at slightly different things but it is noticeable. Good luck.

Some people have too much money :rolleyes:

I can barely afford a second bicycle, but as I live equally in two countries and I either train only half of the time or have to consider permanently moving the bike back and forth (quite impossible giving the schedule I have for flights)... a second bike is my only choice.

Which means just 1 more bike. And it's a luxury to be making my existing nice bike my secondary one... meaning I'm spending more on this new one.

It's a further luxury to even be able to consider either a Serotta or something else of this level.

Whatever I get I'm sure I'll love it.

Seriously though... some of you do seem to have way too much money, more than sense? Possibly.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . so I just wanted to let you all know that I am greievously offended by every word I have read in every post of this thread. Disgusting. Absolutely reprehensible!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Except for the French Maids . .. I love those! :hello: :hello: :hello: ;)

BBD

[cpg]

I fail to see how criticising an ad and product for a feature that you did not even understand can be considered a "scientific look". It is very clear in the earlier posts that you did not know how the translink was constructed.


First thing is the title was Bogus Ad. The second word seems critical. Nowhere did I write bogus bike. Actually I understand how the product is constructed. My comment about the lack of overlapping material isn't due to ignorance of the seat post stub. It's just acknowleging that's the effect and saves some weight. What I think that people aren't understanding is the whole stiffness increase is created by an increase in diameter of the tower not the idea of an integrating the seat tube with the seat post. It's not about the stub of seat post for small adjustments. It's the overall "tower" is a larger diameter. A larger diameter lever is a stiffer lever if of course everything else remains equal. I don't recall seeing that in the ad copy. Do you? Again, my rip is on the ad. I don't recall saying anything negative about the bike. It seems to me that happy owners of the bike don't like my criticism of the ad and take it as a swipe at their beloved bikes. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Curt

[Tom]

It's a really, really good bike. There's a lot of really, really good bikes. How you going to set yours apart from all the others? Mention something that nobody else has. Up until now you could get people worked up over seatposts only if they were setback or not. Innovation comes in many forms, eh?

[cpg]

It's a really, really good bike. There's a lot of really, really good bikes. How you going to set yours apart from all the others? Mention something that nobody else has. Up until now you could get people worked up over seatposts only if they were setback or not. Innovation comes in many forms, eh?


Yes, I did. That was the thrust of my poorly written arguments. It is about product differentiation. Nothing wrong with that though.

Curt

[vaxn8r]

Some people have too much money :rolleyes:

I can barely afford a second bicycle, but as I live equally in two countries and I either train only half of the time or have to consider permanently moving the bike back and forth (quite impossible giving the schedule I have for flights)... a second bike is my only choice.

Which means just 1 more bike. And it's a luxury to be making my existing nice bike my secondary one... meaning I'm spending more on this new one.

It's a further luxury to even be able to consider either a Serotta or something else of this level.

Whatever I get I'm sure I'll love it.

Seriously though... some of you do seem to have way too much money, more than sense? Possibly.
Well, that's why I added a :)

In all seriousness, if my finances were tight there is no way I would buy a new bike. There are too many good bikes on the secondary market. If I had to have new it'd be a more production oriented bike like a CAAD8 or Specialized. If you hang out on the classifieds you'll eventually find a Time VXRS and a Legend in your size for a fraction of buying new.

You presume a lot in your last sentence.

[DavidK]

You presume a lot in your last sentence.


Probably. A little daunted by the sheer number of "yeah, i've got one of those and it rocks" that keep echoing the forums. Makes it sound like bikes are for collecting and not riding :)

My existing bike is a CAAD8 and I love it. It's only my pining for cycling when I'm abroad that leads me to a second bike, one for this city, one for that :D

[Climb01742]

Makes it sound like bikes are for collecting and not riding :)

i do have a few bikes. and i ride a lot. last week, the final week in march, i rode over 18 hours. just because you have multiple bikes doesn't mean you don't ride.

that aside, i'd be very curious what you think of the vxrs. please tell us how your test ride goes.

[spiderlake]

I don't know why but reading your post is the most I've laughed all week. Freedom Horn! Classic! Freedom Fit?

we don't have to call them a 'freedom horn' anymore?

[dbrk]

from dbrk: i, also, am offended by the advertisement. i have in my life never seen an ad that affected me so much. rene herse or grant peterson never used a translink and they represent the pinnacle of bicycle design. i have never seen the mechanism myself, i do not race and dont really know how it works but still believe that it is marketing hype and it would not make me ride like tom boonen probably.
i hope this will put this to rest.

You are correct, Sir!

dbrk

[dbrk]

... and to be fair, the bike isn't designed with any of us in mind. the fact that putz's like me have one is a fluke of economics. i just don't want the bike to get tarnished by the ad.

This is, I think, not so. Time didn't make this bike so that pros could ride it. They give them to pros so that putz like us will buy them because pros ride them. They are in the bike selling business. They make bikes that only putzz' like some of us can afford.

Along another unrelated line, resenting someone who can afford what they like is, well, nothing more than another form of envy. Always unappealing.

As for "French Fit", I like the Doof's idea nearly as much as Rene Herse who, btw, knew more about bicycles than anyone on this list or any other. Period.

And I'm not the slightest bit offended though it seems interesting to me that folks comment on others in a personal way who they don't know the first thing about, except for this curious public conversation. That strikes me as callow but that would imply offense and, really, my skin isn't thin or thick, it's just indifferent. 'Cause I think everyone should like what they like. Could the stakes be lower than this particular conversation's topic?

And that ad was total bogus nonsense and that says not one thing about the bike, which I don't give a crap about. Commenting on the ad is no more important than commenting on the weather, but it is something to do. Lord knows, we all apparently have plenty of time for that.

Enjoy! I'm going French!

dbrk

[Brian Smith]

bogus ads?
boy, you folks think up the most preposterous stuff.
c'mon.
besides, it's a criticism of time's ad, not the vxrs.
ok, grumpy goes away now, sorry for the intrusion...

[The Spider]

"Seriously though... some of you do seem to have way too much money, more than sense? Possibly."


It may seem that way, but they may just have different priorities to others...I quiet often see folks with one bike worth more than there car....some don't even own a car! ;)

Some may have saved for years to build that collection.

[stevep]

to address the idea that the bikes are:
1 designed to sell to guys like us with money and the pros are merely advertisements
or
2 designed for the pros and then deigned to be retailable to guys like us with money...
i would clarify that a number of these european companies in particular show a tremendous passion for the professional racing side of the sport. they spend a far greater percentage of promotional dollars on these teams that would be considered prudent my many accountants. they allocate these dollars because of their own personal pride in the product and their own committment to the professional sport. it is a costly endeaver. time, look, colnago and others are far, far smaller companies than , say, trek or specialized...but their pro expenditures are far greater in dollars and far, far greater as a percentage. why? they are involved and like to participate in the sport at a high level.
somewhere in the end the company accountant chimes in with.." cant we sell some of these things to customers who want pro bikes...because we are spending all these dollars on development?" and then they go from there. i believe that these smaller very familiar european companies enter the sport with passion and the big companies like specialized and trek enter for marketing purposes.... to gain some street cred.
but i will not freak out if anyone disagrees with me either.

[e-RICHIE]

i believe that these smaller very familiar european companies enter the sport with passion and the big companies like specialized and trek enter for marketing purposes.... to gain some street cred.
but i will not freak out if anyone disagrees with me either.


most of the smaller companies with passion were
outbid by the bigger companies with marketing
purposes. atmo.

[Dr. Doofus]

most ads are stupid

(its the nature of that form of rhetoric -- you want thoughtful, read a book)

most bikes are good

most ads about good bikes are stupid, but occasionally feature hot chicks who don't look like they ride bikes (see first point, above, again)

[CNY rider]

For the non-Yiddishers in the audience: The plural of putz is putzes.

i.e. I am a putz. You are a bunch of putzes.

Kapish?

[e-RICHIE]

For the non-Yiddishers in the audience: The plural of putz is putzes.

i.e. I am a putz. You are a bunch of putzes.

Kapish?


does that plural stuff work with forum members?
thanks yo -
Roy E. Munson

[dbrk]

For the non-Yiddishers in the audience: The plural of putz is putzes. i.e. I am a putz. You are a bunch of putzes.
Kapish?

I know the darn plural of putz, I just thought it would waaaaay more fun to write a word with two z's, as in putzz'. There aren't too many words with z's let alone TWO z's and you gots to make the most of your potential opportunities.

BTW, that Time ad is bogus.

db[utz is close to putz]rk

[Tom]

I am doing yard work. I buy dirt to patch a hole in the lawn. (Tangent: I was raised on a farm. Do you have any idea how much it burns my *** to buy dirt? Buy dirt. Think about it. Only in America.) Anyway, the bag is 1.5 cubic feet of dirt. It has a big yellow box on the label.

"50% more!" in big letters. In little letters: "Than a 1.0 cubic foot bag."

[manet]

(Tangent: I was raised on a farm. Do you have any idea how much it burns my *** to buy dirt? Buy dirt. Think about it. Only in America.)

... that'z why wheelbarrowz have wheelz, neighborz have yardz, and
light + motion sellz headlampz.

[Tom]

The best dirt is down in the graveyard.

[manet]

chooz your neighborz wizely