Greg LeMond interview

[fiamme red]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/promotions/events/11400135/Greg-LeMond-Cycling-needed-Lance-Armstrongs-fall.html

Did you feel vindicated when Lance was finally caught?

People ask that, but I’m not really sure vindication is the right word. I’m glad that there is a clarity. I think his fall was important and the sport needed it to actually wake up. But the history of the doping preceding Armstrong, and my career was greatly affected by it; I even had a teammate who’d died of it, I believe. There’s no absolute proof but I know what he told me when he left our team to join another. When I left the sport I had a really bad taste in my mouth. There was the 1998 Festina Affair which nearly destroyed the sport. However, rather than go clean Armstrong took advantage of that. You get one bad apple, then the rest turn rotten. So my issues with doping arose before him, but what muddied the waters was the support he gained in the US. The propaganda was frightening. He hijacked the sport. He used his money and used his links to talk to people at UCI and he had a 'get out of jail card' that no other rider really had.

And it doesn’t mean it’s all fool proof right now; it’s a competitive sport and people will always believe they can get around the system. The main thing is that if there’s transparency riders know what they’re competing against, we know that there’s honest drug tests, that they’re doing their best on a level playing field. I hope that in three or four years there really will be no more hiding.

[abalone]

Great interview. Classy. A real champion and pioneer for cycling in America. And still the one and only American winner of the Tour de France. Greg did it the way a real hero does.

Doesn't blame others. Isn't a drunk driver who gets his girlfriend to take the blame for his drunk driving. Doesn't make excuses that everybody is doing it. Doesn't lie and steal millions from cancer patients. Doesn't hire an internet PR firm to smear other people and shape a narrative that says it's ok to be cheat, steal, and bully. Isn't a sociopath, or psychopath, or whatever textbook description of a total scumbag bully one can attest to the "survivor". It's not hard to like Greg Lemond, unless you happen to support the guy (Armstrong) that does all those villainous things.

[peanutgallery]

That's the ticket I'd like to see

Full on crazy, no BS. I like it

[1centaur]

Wait, whom should I believe about the effect of one bad apple, Greg LeMond or The Osmond Brothers?

[CunegoFan]

He seems to be a-ok with the rotten apples he raced against. He still protecting Hinault and Kelly and Indurain and Fignon and Roche and Rooks and Theunisse and...

Maybe if he would not have spend his entire pro career with his eyes closed he would have noticed the whole orchard was rotten.

[fiamme red]

He seems to be a-ok with the rotten apples he raced against. He still protecting Hinault and Kelly and Indurain and Fignon and Roche and Rooks and Theunisse and...

Maybe if he would not have spend his entire pro career with his eyes closed he would have noticed the whole orchard was rotten.I find it hard to believe that of all the top pros in the 1980's, LeMond was the only one who was clean.

[abalone]

I find it hard to believe that of all the top pros in the 1980's, LeMond was the only one who was clean.

Lemond wasn't the only one that was clean, but the narrative that everybody is dirty and drug-ridden is the one that Armstrong wants to purport because that's the only way Armstrong can say he won fairly because "everybody was doing it".

[velomonkey]

He seems to be a-ok with the rotten apples he raced against. He still protecting Hinault and Kelly and Indurain and Fignon and Roche and Rooks and Theunisse and...

Maybe if he would not have spend his entire pro career with his eyes closed he would have noticed the whole orchard was rotten.

When a man is proven right and takes down your idol he will, most likely, never be perfect in your eyes. That is very clear.

However, he is far, far, far closer to perfect than your old idol - Mr. Armstrong.

Let the guy be.

[peanutgallery]

Starting a line-up for the true identity of CunegoFan. They should both be very familiar with the term "subpoena"

http://www.pelotonpost.com/archives/images/stories/phinney_book/2010_tdf_18_721_ochowicz.jpg

http://cdn1.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/2009/08/22/1/irelands1002_600.jpg

[bikingshearer]

This is the most nuanced, reasonable sounding take on dopage I have heard form Lemond. I have often said - here in The Paceline included - that I often wish he would shut up because, even though he is so often right, his tone comes off as whiny to the point he does more harm than good. That tone is completely absent in this interview, and I for one am delighted. I hope the days of the tone interfering with the obvious knowledge and insight are finally over.

As for exonerating other riders, I'd say that is only half-right. Lemond has long said that the pace of the peloton as a whole shot up about 1991, and nothing in this has him backing off of that. That means that he is not giving Indurain, Theunisse or any of the other 1990's stars a pass, although he is not calling them out by name. Of course, in his day, the "secret weapon" of choice was steroids, usually used to increase power to push ridiculous gears. I think it is no coincidence that both Hinault and Fignon had serious knee issues in their career, nor do I think it is a coincidence that both came up in the pro ranks under the tutelage of Cyrille Guimard (who himself destroyed his knees by powering too big a gear for too long, although I have no clue whether steroids were available to him in the early 70s when he was at his peak.) Hinault has hinted at this, although I'm not aware of any direct accusations from him.

I note also that his focus on Armstrong has expanded to include the cover-up behavior at least as much as the doping itself, which I believe is at it should be.

[1centaur]

I'm going to suggest we should not head in that direction (CF's identity). Let this be a forum of ideas rather than aspersions.

[fiamme red]

When a man is proven right and takes down your idol he will, most likely, never be perfect in your eyes. That is very clear.

However, he is far, far, far closer to perfect than your old idol - Mr. Armstrong.I think CunegoFan is playing devil's advocate. I don't think he idolizes Lance.

[paulh]

I think CunegoFan is playing devil's advocate. I don't think he idolizes Lance.

That's funny. Did you mean to add a sarcasm emoticon to that?

[josephr]

Maybe if he would not have spend his entire pro career with his eyes closed he would have noticed the whole orchard was rotten.

so....are you saying LeMond was a rotten apple too? If the others were dirty, then wouldn't it make sense for him to be saying clean riders have the advantage?

[Dead Man]

LeMond.... Le sigh...

LeMond = Whine. Like superglue.

Let us all remember that the only reason he is relevant is because he injected himself into the post-LeMond Lance/doping world.

Otherwise:

LeMond? Ooohhhh yea... dude won the TdF in late 80s, early 90s, something like that? Didn't he do it twice? Guy makes bikes now, doesn't he? Yea... nice, I hear.... always puts triples on 'em, though. Lame.

Dude should have allowed himself to fade into TdF history with all the other heroes. But nope.... he had to whine.

[beeatnik]

LeMond.... Le sigh...

LeMond = Whine. Like superglue.

Let us all remember that the only reason he is relevant is because he injected himself into the post-LeMond Lance/doping world.

Otherwise:

LeMond? Ooohhhh yea... dude won the TdF in late 80s, early 90s, something like that? Didn't he do it twice? Guy makes bikes now, doesn't he? Yea... nice, I hear.... always puts triples on 'em, though. Lame.

Dude should have allowed himself to fade into TdF history with all the other heroes. But nope.... he had to whine.


B not sure I like your style on this one.

[Black Dog]

You know, this is a really uniformed opinion. Seriously. :no:


LeMond.... Le sigh...

LeMond = Whine. Like superglue.

Let us all remember that the only reason he is relevant is because he injected himself into the post-LeMond Lance/doping world.

Otherwise:

LeMond? Ooohhhh yea... dude won the TdF in late 80s, early 90s, something like that? Didn't he do it twice? Guy makes bikes now, doesn't he? Yea... nice, I hear.... always puts triples on 'em, though. Lame.

Dude should have allowed himself to fade into TdF history with all the other heroes. But nope.... he had to whine.

[Jgrooms]

Suck it in Greg, but you can't hide the man titties. The physique of a world class cyclist? No doubt EPO, lead poisoning & mitochondrial myopathy (wow triple wammy & he could still ride) all were a factor. But the cat was huge! You should have seen the GAN Greg hunched over the bike like a PBP tourist hanging on to the team car.

Now Greg informs us that LA and only satan himself had a play with the UCI. Read much Greg?

And who is this dead teammate mate? How does a reporter get away without a follow up? A fact check? Hey Mr Editor can we run with this complete hear say?


http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/10/4ae58680dbf7d0b3d0e988b9935477f7.jpg

[Dead Man]

You know, this is a really uniformed opinion. Seriously. :no:

Ah... no. You can disagree (and I posted this knowing many around here do disagree with my opinion of LeMond), but "uninformed" I am not. I've read all the same crap you have. Unless you're personal bros with Greg?

[mhespenheide]

LeMond? Ooohhhh yea... dude won the TdF in late 80s, early 90s, something like that? Didn't he do it twice? Guy makes bikes now, doesn't he? Yea... nice, I hear.... always puts triples on 'em, though. Lame.

Dude should have allowed himself to fade into TdF history with all the other heroes. But nope.... he had to whine.

Without trying to rehash so many of the old arguments, I think you're a bit shortsighted here.

The US is a gigantic market for cyclists, if only for the sheer size of the country. Some percentage of those cyclists are going to be interested in racing, and some percentage are going to be interested in the history of racing. While you might not be interested in that history, many people are. LeMond was the first American winner of the Tour de France, and that carries significance. In twenty years, Cadel Evans will still be remembered (at least by some) as the first Australian winner of the Tour. If he does nothing else, Quintana will be remembered 20 years from now as the first Colombian winner of the Giro. (And if Andy Hampsten is anything to judge by, people will remember the conditions he rode in, too.)

If you don't care for the guy, or don't care to follow the history of the sport, that's fine. But there's a lot more to him and his story than 'whiner'.

[Black Dog]

Ah... no. You can disagree (and I posted this knowing many around here do disagree with my opinion of LeMond), but "uninformed" I am not. I've read all the same crap you have. Unless you're personal bros with Greg?

Not bothered by your opinion, seems quite reasonable compared to the vitriol that Jgrooms is vomiting out. There are some basic facts that you are ignoring. You may see him a a whiner but do you deny the real harm that Armstrong inflicted upon him? He also kept his mouth shut for most of a decade during all of this (you will not find anything from any media source to the contrary). Yea, he won the race 3 times (but you are very intent on downplaying that fact), he also has an amazing pedigree in the sport. He also was shot, and lost 2 years during the middle of his tour winning time, cam back and won 2 more times before the Extra Power Option was introduced to the peloton. "Always puts triples on his bikes...lame" Really, why are you calling down his bikes present and past, none of which by the way were less than racing bikes, not department store bikes. Yep you are informed and clearly not disparaging his achievements and products because you think he is whining and complaining about nothing. :rolleyes:

[Jgrooms]

Without trying to rehash so many of the old arguments, I think you're a bit shortsighted here.



The US is a gigantic market for cyclists, if only for the sheer size of the country. Some percentage of those cyclists are going to be interested in racing, and some percentage are going to be interested in the history of racing. While you might not be interested in that history, many people are. LeMond was the first American winner of the Tour de France, and that carries significance. In twenty years, Cadel Evans will still be remembered (at least by some) as the first Australian winner of the Tour. If he does nothing else, Quintana will be remembered 20 years from now as the first Colombian winner of the Giro. (And if Andy Hampsten is anything to judge by, people will remember the conditions he rode in, too.)



If you don't care for the guy, or don't care to follow the history of the sport, that's fine. But there's a lot more to him and his story than 'whiner'.


Agree 100% and exactly why GL should just stop. Every interview is a rehash of same old topic with the occasional new 'twist'.

Decline to go there. Oops, no interview would happen now would it?

[Jgrooms]

Not bother by your opinion, seems quite reasonable compared to the vitriol that Jgrooms is vomiting out. There are some basic facts that you are ignoring. You may see him a a whiner but do you deny the real harm that Armstrong inflicted upon him? He also kept his mouth shut for most of a decade during all of this (you will not find anything from any media source to the contrary). Yea, he won the race 3 times (but you are very intent on downplaying that fact), he also has an amazing pedigree in the sport. He also was shot, and lost 2 years during the middle of his tour winning time, cam back and won 2 more times before the Extra Power Option was introduced to the peloton. "Always puts triples on his bikes...lame" Really, why are you calling down his bikes present and past, none of which by the way were less than racing bikes, not department store bikes. Yep you are informed and clearly not disparaging his achievements and products because you think he is whining and complaining about nothing. :rolleyes:


Vitriol? GL is the king of revisionist history & last I checked weight was/is a method to indicate form & potential. And while the theories, always changing, for GL's career end are many, he (and his many rose colored glass wearing fans) forget he was fat. If they even followed the sport then - ie questionable.

Maybe cheeseburgers were prescribed for their anti lead properties. Recall GL was a cutting edge trainer who 'invented' power based training & schooled the euros on how to train, eat ice cream & sleep w windows open! Too bad he failed basic math for its watts to kg.

Vitriol? You calling it that, now thats vitriol.

[paulh]

Isn't there a support group for some of you?

www.bitteronenutteabaggers.com

[velomonkey]

Ah... no. You can disagree (and I posted this knowing many around here do disagree with my opinion of LeMond), but "uninformed" I am not. I've read all the same crap you have. Unless you're personal bros with Greg?

Bro, you said he wasn't 'relevant' or rather, wait, you said his relevance is only cause of post Lance.

Bro, do you even lift?

The guy won 3 tours, 2 world championships and got 4th twice in Roubaix - if that's not relevant I don't know what is.

[velomonkey]

he (and his many rose colored glass wearing fans) forget he was fat. If they even followed the sport then - ie questionable.


Um, let's see, on one hand we have your opinion. I am sure you are a total pro with what is required to win Le Tour.

Or, on the other hand we this "I'm still of the opinion the greatest racer ever was Greg LeMond. He could climb off the couch and win races. He could come back from the off-season soft and doughy, and within a week he'd be ripped. Hands-down amazing." - right from THIS interview with Joe Parkin (http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/interviews.php?id=riders/2009/interviews/joe_parkin_apr09).

I dunno, anonymous internet posters who probably have never even won an office park crit do carry a lot of weight - and Joe Parkin in 2009 when Lance mania was still in effect had something to gain. I mean who is he, right? To say something pro LeMond in '09 just demonstrates how stoopid he is, right?

I'll go with your view :bike: (did my sarcasm register - I can never be sure).

[beeatnik]

The Greg hate is almost as incomprehensible to me as the Lance love (during the cancer crusader years, especially).

[PQJ]

Didn't he do it twice?


He won 3 times. Coming from America. Plus he probably should've won #1 / #4 in '84. And his career was punctuated by a bullet.

[peanutgallery]

Wow

I can see that someone needs to stay away from guns, pets and small children. The fat comments are almost like Mom shaming. WTH, I resemble those comments?

Encountered them both over the years racing and being a shop rat for way too long. Greg was far and away a very nice person. Genuine and the greatest stories, a true joy to meet. -7? Not so much a joy to ever encounter. He wasn't fat, but he did have weasely/shifty eyes (sarcasm).

Greg taught the Euro's about living life and being a success on the bike, and he brought money in. Before he came along most of the Euro's lives were run by the team they rode for and decades old wives tales about A/C, diet and hobbies. He changed the sport in a positive way for the riders. He revolutionized almost the entire structure...and won 3 Tours along with 2 rainbow jerseys. That makes him an expert opinion in my book, so he has a voice that should probably be respected

Carry on

[Black Dog]

Once thing interesting to note here. Whenever anyone who stood up to or spoke ill of Lance is mentioned here, there is a a small group of people who will stop at very little to malign their character. Lots of defamation and slanderous things are said during these vitriolic attacks. It really does puzzle me...:confused: Can anyone weigh in on the psycology at play here.

[peanutgallery]

A highly developed appreciation for a sociopath. Must turn you into one, too

Once thing interesting to note here. Whenever anyone who stood up to or spoke ill of Lance is mentioned here, there is a a small group of people who will stop at very little to malign their character. Lots of defamation and slanderous things are said during these vitriolic attacks. It really does puzzle me...:confused: Can anyone weigh in on the physiology at play here.

[Jgrooms]

Um, let's see, on one hand we have your opinion. I am sure you are a total pro with what is required to win Le Tour.

Or, on the other hand we this "I'm still of the opinion the greatest racer ever was Greg LeMond. He could climb off the couch and win races. He could come back from the off-season soft and doughy, and within a week he'd be ripped. Hands-down amazing." - right from THIS interview with Joe Parkin (http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/interviews.php?id=riders/2009/interviews/joe_parkin_apr09).

I dunno, anonymous internet posters who probably have never even won an office park crit do carry a lot of weight - and Joe Parkin in 2009 when Lance mania was still in effect had something to gain. I mean who is he, right? To say something pro LeMond in '09 just demonstrates how stoopid he is, right?

I'll go with your view :bike: (did my sarcasm register - I can never be sure).


Never claimed GL wasn't a freak. All good students know he was a freak. However, time, lead, strange conditions know one ever heard of & cheeseburgers catch up with every mortal.

And unlike most past champions they move on & quit rehashing the ends of their careers.
GL's been tooting this stuff for 20 plus. Think about.

And as internet poster analysis goes (some thing you are fond of), why always make it personal? OBTW, I am not anon. However, you are monkey.

[Frankwurst]

Bruce Jenner thinks you are all spending to much time focusing on Greg and Lance.:beer:

[peanutgallery]

this caught my eye this week, a Bruce Jenner bike from the marketing heyday
https://harrisburg.craigslist.org/bik/4871260734.html


Bruce Jenner thinks you are all spending to much time focusing on Greg and Lance.:beer:

[Black Dog]

Vitriol? GL is the king of revisionist history & last I checked weight was/is a method to indicate form & potential. And while the theories, always changing, for GL's career end are many, he (and his many rose colored glass wearing fans) forget he was fat. If they even followed the sport then - ie questionable.

Maybe cheeseburgers were prescribed for their anti lead properties. Recall GL was a cutting edge trainer who 'invented' power based training & schooled the euros on how to train, eat ice cream & sleep w windows open! Too bad he failed basic math for its watts to kg.

Vitriol? You calling it that, now thats vitriol.

Did you ever stop and consider that Lemond's search for reasons (as you call them, lame excuses) for why he could not keep up at the end of his career was because EPO was on the scene? He actually may have thought it was him, even though, he knew that he was putting out some of the best numbers of his career. It was not until later that he realized that it was the EPO the others were using that was the bigger issue. By the way, look at him in profile at his skinniest and best and it looks like he has a gut because like a lot of riders he extends his diaphragm out while breathing hard. He was lean during the 1991 tour.

[Jgrooms]

Bruce what happened? I saw you on a rerun of CHIPS and was reminded of WWofS & Wheaties, You were right up there with LeMonster as my heros. Stopped looking for heros in sports long ago.

[Frankwurst]

this caught my eye this week, a Bruce Jenner bike from the marketing heyday
https://harrisburg.craigslist.org/bik/4871260734.html

Yup. That's what I'm talkin' about. Limited edition 10 speed low mileage the whole enchilada.

[Jgrooms]

Did you ever stop and consider that Lemond's search for reasons (as you call them, lame excuses) for why he could not keep up at the end of his career was because EPO was on the scene? He actually may have thought it was him, even though, he knew that he was putting out some of the best numbers of his career. It was not until later that he realized that it was the EPO the others were using that was the bigger issue. By the way, look at him in profile at his skinniest and best and it looks like he has a gut because like a lot of riders he extends his diaphragm out while breathing hard. He was lean during the 1991 tour.


Certainly, as we now know. And of course he knew then & followed the code.

Never used term "lame" just repeating them for anyone who may have missed them. Is that possible?

Pull out the tapes. He was not the same 92 on & it (his weight) was much discussed at the time. Sorry we have the fat patrol out tonight, but to call a cyclist fat is hardly scandalous.

Consider this. Put your thumb, skinny I'm sure, over his face, and ask is this the physique of a world class cyclist? Remove subject & search for truth. Man boobs! Hey I know prolly some new age breath thing he was working.

Keep 'em coming. How about the dead teammate?

[elong8]

If everyone is cheating, then does that make it the secret standard? I respect and appreciate who Greg is and what he's done and hate that he possibly had less glory because other guys were cheating. But certainly there's more to the story? I dunno. Lance was bad, probably is still bad. But was he the only one? Or maybe just the one to get away with more?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peanutgallery]

Enchilada

Now that's an interesting frame of reference when referring to Bruce Jenner.

Yup. That's what I'm talkin' about. Limited edition 10 speed low mileage the whole enchilada.

[fuzzalow]

Enchilada

Now that's an interesting frame of reference when referring to Bruce Jenner.

His yearning is apparently for tacos.

[DRZRM]

Keep 'em coming. How about the dead teammate?

Not sure why you are jumping on this point. Eighteen European professional cyclists died in the late 80s early 90s, right? Not such a shocker that someone would have been on a team with just about any pro cyclist at some point. Why should any journalist need to jump on this like it was big news?

"Doctors and blood specialists say the drug may be implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers in the last four years. Drug Called a Factor Only anecdotal evidence links EPO to these deaths. But the specialists say they believe the drug was a factor in at least some of the deaths."

New York Times May 19, 1991 (http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=1)

[pbarry]

Not sure why you are jumping on this point. Eighteen European professional cyclists died in the late 80s early 90s, right? Not such a shocker that someone would have been on a team with just about any pro cyclist at some point. Why should any journalist need to jump on this like it was big news?

"Doctors and blood specialists say the drug may be implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers in the last four years. Drug Called a Factor Only anecdotal evidence links EPO to these deaths. But the specialists say they believe the drug was a factor in at least some of the deaths."

New York Times May 19, 1991 (http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=1)

Well said and thanks for posting this. [Factual] Historical content interjected into a debate is always appreciated.

Cheers

[abalone]

Not sure why you are jumping on this point. Eighteen European professional cyclists died in the late 80s early 90s, right? Not such a shocker that someone would have been on a team with just about any pro cyclist at some point. Why should any journalist need to jump on this like it was big news?

"Doctors and blood specialists say the drug may be implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers in the last four years. Drug Called a Factor Only anecdotal evidence links EPO to these deaths. But the specialists say they believe the drug was a factor in at least some of the deaths."

New York Times May 19, 1991 (http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=1)

:hello:

Let's hope Jgrooms doesn't see this. It would destroy his argument. Because he's only got eyes for Armstrong.

[Jgrooms]

Not sure why you are jumping on this point. Eighteen European professional cyclists died in the late 80s early 90s, right? Not such a shocker that someone would have been on a team with just about any pro cyclist at some point. Why should any journalist need to jump on this like it was big news?



"Doctors and blood specialists say the drug may be implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers in the last four years. Drug Called a Factor Only anecdotal evidence links EPO to these deaths. But the specialists say they believe the drug was a factor in at least some of the deaths."



New York Times May 19, 1991 (http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=1)


Did you read his quote? "I believe" not. You make my point. Everyone knows that some cyclists died from a poor understanding of the effects of EPO on highly trained endurance athletes. But GL 20 yrs on has to remind us and oh one was my teammate. I believe.

GAN was a French team, I don't recall a lot of Dutch riders riding for Legeay. And weren't the majority of speculated EPO deaths Dutch? Oh well just ask Greg?

Biggest woulda, coulda, shoulda champion in the history of sport. Dude, you won three & WC. A veritable genetic freak. And yes you had some bad luck.

The list is long:
Hinault robbed me.
Got my ass shot.
Lead poisoning.
Some crazy ass myopathy of the brai...muscles.
91 to 92 switch flipped and entire peloton was juiced but him & he'd get popped on the first cat 4.
And the most obvious-no doctors, smoking guns or insider knowledge required- if the tapes (youtube for you youngsters) & pics are to be believed, he was overweight (not fat despite ability to breast feed).

[Dead Man]

The only topic more consistently and venomously divisive than helmets.

Get dem demons out, boys.

FWIW - I respect the shiitism out of LeMonds cycling accomplishments. It's just a damn shame his memory won't be for legendary performance on a bike.

[csm]

Enchilada

Now that's an interesting frame of reference when referring to Bruce Jenner.

Hehe and its a mixte frame....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Jgrooms]

:hello:



Let's hope Jgrooms doesn't see this. It would destroy his argument. Because he's only got eyes for Armstrong.


Not one toot here about LA. Leave that to Greg. Its never been a Greg vs Lance or 'i like Greg & you like Lance' thing for me. I leave that to self righteous tools like you who carry their agendas from post to post.

BTW, what is my argument?

[fiamme red]

this caught my eye this week, a Bruce Jenner bike from the marketing heyday
https://harrisburg.craigslist.org/bik/4871260734.htmlIt's digital! ;)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3We5Qm3FGQU/UaycJ08jxmI/AAAAAAAAAH0/xOBIVz2AhLw/s1600/$(KGrHqF,!lME3HUclHhuBOElKWEu7g~~0_3.jpg

[peanutgallery]

the beginning of the slippery slope

At least he doesnt look fat, that should please some folks

It's digital! ;)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3We5Qm3FGQU/UaycJ08jxmI/AAAAAAAAAH0/xOBIVz2AhLw/s1600/$(KGrHqF,!lME3HUclHhuBOElKWEu7g~~0_3.jpg

[Dead Man]

Hah.. it's "digital"

So's a rectal exam.

[beeatnik]

. It's just a damn shame his memory won't be for legendary performance on a bike.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8610/16311650029_600c1b6ac2_o.jpg

[abalone]

FWIW - I respect the shiitism out of LeMonds cycling accomplishments. It's just a damn shame his memory won't be for legendary performance on a bike.


So says the dude that doesn't like Lemond.

[peanutgallery]

This thread has everything. lemond, bruce jenner, fat shaming, tacos, enchiladas and The Dude abides. Must be February

[FlashUNC]

Did you read his quote? "I believe" not. You make my point. Everyone knows that some cyclists died from a poor understanding of the effects of EPO on highly trained endurance athletes. But GL 20 yrs on has to remind us and oh one was my teammate. I believe.

GAN was a French team, I don't recall a lot of Dutch riders riding for Legeay. And weren't the majority of speculated EPO deaths Dutch? Oh well just ask Greg?


Phillipe Casado. The name you're looking for is Phillipe Casado. Greg has mentioned him several times -- though not by name. Dropped dead at 30. Had left Gan for teams with easier access to le dopage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Casado

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VvZV8zP9aOI/UH7pWDC4O3I/AAAAAAAAVW4/nM5Vo3CmvO8/s1600/Casado,Philippe.jpg

[r_mutt]

Well, that was easy. And it didn't take an investigative journalist to find the identity. What now jgrooms?

[abalone]

Well, that was easy. And it didn't take an investigative journalist to find the identity. What now jgrooms?


JGrooms is eating crow right now and is unable to speak because his mouth is stuffed full.

[velomonkey]

FWIW - I respect the shiitism out of LeMonds cycling accomplishments. It's just a damn shame his memory won't be for legendary performance on a bike.

There were Lance fans and then there are Bike Racing fans (did you see what I did there) - granted it's a Venn diagram, some Lance fans are also bike racing fans.

Jac Boyer: Jac is known as the first American to race in the tour. The dude served a year in prison doing something freaky with a miner. It doesn't get much lower than that, but the dude is still remembered for his feats on the bike.

Something tells me you're off on LeMond.

[Bruce K]

Let's try to keep this on point if you want to continue the discussion.

The personal shots, OT inferences, etc, have no place here and we are getting complaints

I know people are getting a little stir crazy with all the snow and all but we need to keep some decorum

BK

[oldpotatoe]

Andy Hampsten also.

After the 'interview', Andy came into the shop with a great big smile on his face. I think it applies to 'clarity', not vindication.

"Did you feel vindicated when Lance was finally caught?

People ask that, but I’m not really sure vindication is the right word. I’m glad that there is a clarity."

[oldpotatoe]

There were Lance fans and then there are Bike Racing fans (did you see what I did there) - granted it's a Venn diagram, some Lance fans are also bike racing fans.

Jac Boyer: Jac is known as the first American to race in the tour. The dude served a year in prison doing something freaky with a minor. It doesn't get much lower than that, but the dude is still remembered for his feats on the bike.

Something tells me you're off on LeMond.

FIFY, didn't mess around with this.

[pbarry]

Well done, OP! :beer:

[Gummee]

I think what ruffles my feathers is the fact that LA is 'the face of doping.' ...yet ALL the previous generations of dopers (Fausto Coppi and Eddy Merckx included) are given a pass.

I get that LA peed in a bunch of folks' Wheaties bowls. I get that he was a jackhole. ...but if you're going to condemn one for the actions of *most* of the peloton, its disingenuous.

Now, if ole GL was crying 'foul!' about Hinault, et al AND LA, that'd be another story.

Seems he's got a personal vendetta against LA. One that's cost him his bike brand...

M

[oldpotatoe]

I think what ruffles my feathers is the fact that LA is 'the face of doping.' ...yet ALL the previous generations of dopers (Fausto Coppi and Eddy Merckx included) are given a pass.

I get that LA peed in a bunch of folks' Wheaties bowls. I get that he was a jackhole. ...but if you're going to condemn one for the actions of *most* of the peloton, its disingenuous.

Now, if ole GL was crying 'foul!' about Hinault, et al AND LA, that'd be another story.

Seems he's got a personal vendetta against LA. One that's cost him his bike brand...

M

That's why. And why people also give a pass to the 'Hincapies and VandeVeldes' of the peloton, who admit it, 'oh I'm so sorry', stuff, and then sell their jerseys.

[fuzzalow]

I'm a LeMond fan.

I'd never invested even a smidgen of belief or support for LA during any of his TdF run - his World Championship win might have been clean because WC races are sometimes lotteries and a guy can win one outta the blue. But a TdF win for a guy like that? No way. No way. So from day one I knew he was cheating. No problem with that for me. It's the real world and I don't hafta like it so for TdF I just tuned out and stopped watching. I didn't know LA's run would last a decade so with the exception of Bianchi's single run at the TdF w/Jan, I stay tuned-out.

My point being is I care not a wit about LA. Nothing he does irritates me personally although the extent and depth of how he exploited and manipulated the public was a new level or mendacity - to hone in on a cancer patients desperation and conflate their love of life as also love to LA and his "mission" is a repugnant ploy. And the myths the public bought into is astounding - like LA making a public show about weighing his food because his meticulousness was the key to his dominance and success. That was rich! I have no problem with that malarkey because it was played out for the mass audience. And if you fell for it as a knowledgeable cyclist then I have no sympathy for you.

And every relentless defense of LA is an outgrowth of this betrayal. Sorry for you.

If LA is hounded by the retributions of Betsy and Greg and Emma and Walsh and anyone else for the rest of his days, well, stuff happens and no one can say it wasn't earned. Poor baby.

The rest of you should simply get over it and move on. There is no shame that in your enthusiasm and love of the sport of cycling you once got caught up in a global tidal wave of a larger than life story. It does not besmirch a baneful reflection on you. During its time, it was fun and just remember it for that.

[velomonkey]

FIFY, didn't mess around with this.

HAHAHAHA - I woke up, read that and laughed.

[beeatnik]

My point being is I care not a wit about LA. Nothing he does irritates me personally although the extent and depth of how he exploited and manipulated the public was a new level or mendacity - to hone in on a cancer patients desperation and conflate their love of life as also love to LA and his "mission" is a repugnant ploy. And the myths the public bought into is astounding - like LA making a public show about weighing his food because his meticulousness was the key to his dominance and success. That was rich! I have no problem with that malarkey because it was played out for the mass audience. And if you fell for it as a knowledgeable cyclist then I have no sympathy for you.

And every relentless defense of LA is an outgrowth of this betrayal. Sorry for you.

If LA is hounded by the retributions of Betsy and Greg and Emma and Walsh and anyone else for the rest of his days, well, stuff happens and no one can say it wasn't earned. Poor baby.

The rest of you should simply get over it and move on. There is no shame that in your enthusiasm and love of the sport of cycling you once got caught up in a global tidal wave of a larger than life story. It does not besmirch a baneful reflection on you. During its time, it was fun and just remember it for that.

Fuzzalow, I continue to like your style

[Black Dog]

I think what ruffles my feathers is the fact that LA is 'the face of doping.' ...yet ALL the previous generations of dopers (Fausto Coppi and Eddy Merckx included) are given a pass.

M


I have heard this before and The answer is simple. He is the face of doping in cycling because he was the face of cycling (especially in North America). If he was pack filler he would not be the face of doping. When most people associate cycling with LA and then LA gets busted for doping he becomes the association between cycling and doping.

[enr1co]

LeMond was the first American winner of the Tour de France, and that carries significance.

...and the use of eyeshades, lightweight helmets and clip on aero bars are cool because of GL :cool: :)

[peanutgallery]

Don't forget $, too

Before Greg came along being a Pro was a brutal and not so economically advantageous for many

...and the use of eyeshades, lightweight helmets and clip on aero bars are cool because of GL :cool: :)

[Dead Man]

...and the use of eyeshades, lightweight helmets and clip on aero bars are cool because of GL :cool: :)

none of those are cool

[fiamme red]

...and the use of eyeshades, lightweight helmets and clip on aero bars are cool because of GL :cool: :)Don't forget drop-in bars. ;)

http://www.velominati.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/LuzArdiden-620x394.jpg

[CunegoFan]

I think CunegoFan is playing devil's advocate. I don't think he idolizes Lance.

I always knew Armstrong was doping. It did not take much insight. It only took looking at research studies for EPO that showed its performance gains were large compared to the small differences in natural talent at the elite level. With cycling's long standing culture of doping, it was obvious that many riders would use it and once that started no could be competitive without using it.

I spent a lot of time both online and offline trying to convince people that Armstrong was doping. I had the hope that if Armstrong fell then the sport would have to deal honestly with what had become systemic doping instead of deploying its usual method of downplaying the problem by scapegoating a few people. That is not what happened. The opportunity to improve the situation has been lost as people use LA's downfall for their own self-aggrandizement. The behavior of those supposed victims of Armstrong after he was exposed has shown them for what they are and it is a far cry from the innocent people on a quest to protect truth, justice, and the American Way that their version of events would have you believe.

Look at LeMond. It turns out that doping had nothing to do with his feud with Armstrong. He has never said one word about Kelly, Hinault, Fignon, Indurain, Roche, Rooks, etc. These days he is praising Pantani and hanging out with Indurain. He spent part of last year's Tour sitting next to Richard Virenque. About those whose doping cost him wins, not a word.

According to him he only spoke out about Armstrong because he was concerned Armstrong might be doping. This is BS. He would have us believe that he was unaware that every Tour winner (other than him of course) had doped. He raced at a time when doping was even more of a wild west than when Armstrong raced. It was openly discussed among riders. Before races UCI officials would tell people whether there would be testing, and the word would be spread rider to rider so everyone would know whether to load up on amphetamines or not. Corticosteroid abuse was rampant, and riders lost entire seasons because of it. Steroids were commonly used. It beggars belief for LeMond to pretend he did not know that Armstrong and Armstrong's rivals were doping. He knew just like everyone else inside cycling knew. Even the savvy fans knew.

LeMond went out of his way to cast doubt on Armstrong because he was upset he had been eclipsed by a new American cycling star and was not getting the accolades in public that he felt he was due. As the figurehead of a bike brand, attacking a current and wildly popular star of the sport was stupid. His brand suffered a predictable backlash. This did not require a shadowy conspiracy by Armstrong. Regular Joes were coming into LBSes and telling owners that they would never buy a LeMond bike. He cut his own throat.

These days Betsy Andreu is a professional victim. Her version of events has her innocently going about her way, getting a subpoena for the SCA arbitration, and Armstrong hating her for refusing to lie. She leaves out the part where she was feuding with Armstrong for years before the SCA suit, was hounding journalists to go after Armstrong, and was in part responsible for the SCA case taking place in the first place.

Betsy blames Armstrong every time she trips over a crack in the sidewalk. Her latest was a doozy. Within hours of notification that Armstrong had given an interview with the BBC, she was searching for a news outlet to say Armstrong was not really sorry. Her reasoning was bizarre. Frankie receiving notification that he would be subpoenaed in the qui tam case was held up as evidence that Armstrong is still attacking her family. There was not a hint of acknowledgement that these days Armstrong is doing little more than signing the checks while his lawyers turn over every stone. Of course Frankie is going to get subpoenaed. Everyone remotely involved will be subpoenaed. Meanwhile, over on Cycling News, Frankie was playing dumb by saying he does not understand why he should be subpoenaed because he left the team before Landis joined; it must be vengeance by Armstrong. He seems to forget that he could give information about the riders on Postal who were already doping before Armstrong joined the team, throwing doubt on the fairy tale of Armstrong forcing people to dope that is being pushed by his wife and Travis Tygart.

She also never says anything about how people in every profession rely on a network of friends and contacts. She and her husband burned every bridge to those. No one can trust Frankie after she had him sucker his friends into conversations about doping so he could record what they said. George Hincapie might have said it best when he said Frankie's ex-friends could not understand why he was attacking them for doing the same thing he was doing when he was racing. After stabbing Jon Vaughters in the back, he destroyed his chances of employment with JV's team. Yet, Betsy blames everything on a conspiracy by Armstrong rather than her own inability to move on.

David Walsh is, perhaps, the biggest hypocrite. He is now acting as the chief propagandist for Team Sky and Chris Froome. His hypocritical reversal was so repugnant to Paul Kimmage that Kimmage ended their friendship. All the laughable explanations that were used by Postal to explain Armstrong's performance are now being promoted by Walsh. In a rather digusting display of chutzpah, he has compared those who doubt Froome as dejected Armsrong fans who chose to support Contador instead of Froome just as the Jews chose Barabbas over Jesus. He now mocks the very reasoning he used to decide that Armstrong must be doping because it is being used to question Froome's sudden and unexplainable transmogrification.

It turns out Tygart is a Jesus freak who was offended that Armstrong remained an atheist after surviving cancer. He tried to pressure Floyd into fixing his life by finding Jesus.

One of the few in this whole sordid affair that turned out to have consistency and integrity is Paul Kimmage.

[fiamme red]

http://www.lemondfitness.com/about/gregs-history

GREG LEMOND 
A LEGACY OF CYCLING INNOVATION

1978 alloy seat rails
1979 superlight frame
1981 elevated seat position
1984 cycling computer, aero bike, aero helmet
1985 sport shield sunglasses, heart rate monitor
1986 clipless pedals, carbon frames
1987 carbon fork
1989 floating pedals, aero handlebars
1990 drop-in bars
1991 road racing suspension fork, titanium frame
1992 electronic shifting, downloadable bikes
1995 Develops LeMond Racing Cycles - now part of Trek Manufacturing
2002 Founds LeMond Fitness - flagship product is the LeMond RevMaster - Leading Indoor Group Cycling Bike
2004 Introduces g-force RT - revolutionary Recumbent Exercise Bike
2006 Introduces g-force UT –breakthrough Upright Training Bike

[Dead Man]

I always knew Armstrong was doping.

I'm not being snarky at all with this - but did anyone involved in competitive cycling NOT think he was doping? Waaaay back in the early days, maybe.. because not everyone knew about EPO. But once its existence came to light, as you say, it was pretty obvious.

It's the other 99.624% of the world who doesn't know anything about competitive cycling that supposedly didn't know.

[velomonkey]

http://www.lemondfitness.com/about/gregs-history


And, not to mention, the dude just looked awesome on the bike. He would be on the tops with his back totally flat. He was also the last tour winner who could put some serious time in on a decent.

For American cycling there will never be another like LeMond.

For American cycling there will hopefully never be another like Armstrong. (Did you see what I did there)

[velomonkey]

These days Betsy Andreu is a professional victim. Her version of events has her innocently going about her way, getting a subpoena for the SCA arbitration, and Armstrong hating her for refusing to lie. She leaves out the part where she was feuding with Armstrong for years before the SCA suit, was hounding journalists to go after Armstrong, and was in part responsible for the SCA case taking place in the first place.


I know Betsy. Do you? I had dinner with her and Frankie a few years ago after becoming online friends with her back in the days when no one would back her. I almost got her to speak at Georgetown theology about how her catholic upbringing taught her a simple lesson - if you have to justify wrong it's still wrong. I think a lot of people can learn from that. It didn't happen only because of travel and canceled flights.

I don't know you, CunegoFan, but her is what I do know. You, nor anyone, get to tell a victim when enough is enough. She suffered at LA's hands, there is no ambiguity about that. They lost income and her name was mud.

And to say she is responsible for SCA is just not true. The only person responsible for SCA is Lance. End. Full Stop.

[FlashUNC]

Whatever you think of Armstrong's accomplishments, to attempt to argue LeMond was "just another bike racer" is absurd. He and that entire generation of 7-11 guys kicked down a ton of doors in Europe that were closed to Americans for, well, the entire history of the sport to that point.

Americans didn't race in Europe. And when they did, they sure as heck didn't win.

They were treated like crap by a Euro-centric, insular sport that had been that way for decades. The Brits experienced the same thing (and did themselves no favors with the no-mass-start nonsense domestically).

I mean, Pete's sake, you had Hinault and Guillemard coming to Reno to recruit Greg to race on their team. That never happened to American riders. Ever.

You can Armstrong was better, but to say Greg was just another bike racer is either a sign of ignorance of the sport's history, or pure LA fanboyism.

Every successful American pro in the peloton today walked through a door LeMond and Phinney and Roll and Hampsten and others opened.

[mg2ride]

.......

Every successful American pro in the peloton today walked through a door LeMond and Phinney and Roll and Hampsten and others opened.

Very, very true! And as they walked in the door GL was very, very likely handing out PEDs.

[Gummee]

Very, very true! And as they walked in the door GL was very, very likely handing out PEDs.

If not him, then every DS and/or soigneur around him.

Iron shots for anemia? Really?!

M

[peanutgallery]

Last 2 comments just made my head hurt. Oy vey

[CunegoFan]

I'm not being snarky at all with this - but did anyone involved in competitive cycling NOT think he was doping? Waaaay back in the early days, maybe.. because not everyone knew about EPO. But once its existence came to light, as you say, it was pretty obvious.

It's the other 99.624% of the world who doesn't know anything about competitive cycling that supposedly didn't know.

Judging by the amount of butthurt here, it seems there were--as astounding as it may seem--a lot of people who consider themselves cyclists who could not, as Ullrich would say, put one and one together, even though the obvious was obvious.

[CunegoFan]

I had dinner with her and Frankie a few years ago after becoming online friends with her back in the days when no one would back her.

One of that crowd, huh? It was enlightening to see the way she and the clique of doters she nurtures and feeds information treated Emma O'Reilly when O'Reilly made up with Armstrong. What has become evident after Armstrong's exposure is that Betsy is as mean and vindictive as Armstrong. They deserve each other. She has done everything she can to prove Armstrong was right about her.

For amusement listen to her downplay Frankie's doping. It is comedy gold as she excuses Frankie while vilifying George, usually overlaid with a hefty amount of bitterness about George's hotel.

It has been nearly twenty years and she is still at it. She could have moved on with her life at any point. She could have moved on some time during the last two and half years. Instead she is on the horn to the media, lining up an avenue to attack Lance, any time he is mentioned in the press. She enjoys being a professional victim. If Lance gets hit by a bus then she won't know what to do with her life.

[93legendti]

' Jacques Anquetil took a forthright and controversial stand on the use of performance-enhancing drugs. He never hid that he took drugs and in a debate with a government minister on French television said only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux–Paris on just water.

He and other cyclists had to ride through "the cold, through heatwaves, in the rain and in the mountains", and they had the right to treat themselves as they wished, he said in a television interview, before adding:

"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope."'

[93legendti]

Oops

[professerr]

I always knew Armstrong was doping. It did not take much insight. It only took looking at research studies for EPO that showed its performance gains were large compared to the small differences in natural talent at the elite level. With cycling's long standing culture of doping, it was obvious that many riders would use it and once that started no could be competitive without using it.

I spent a lot of time both online and offline trying to convince people that Armstrong was doping. I had the hope that if Armstrong fell then the sport would have to deal honestly with what had become systemic doping instead of deploying its usual method of downplaying the problem by scapegoating a few people. That is not what happened. The opportunity to improve the situation has been lost as people use LA's downfall for their own self-aggrandizement. The behavior of those supposed victims of Armstrong after he was exposed has shown them for what they are and it is a far cry from the innocent people on a quest to protect truth, justice, and the American Way that their version of events would have you believe.

Look at LeMond. It turns out that doping had nothing to do with his feud with Armstrong. He has never said one word about Kelly, Hinault, Fignon, Indurain, Roche, Rooks, etc. These days he is praising Pantani and hanging out with Indurain. He spent part of last year's Tour sitting next to Richard Virenque. About those whose doping cost him wins, not a word.

According to him he only spoke out about Armstrong because he was concerned Armstrong might be doping. This is BS. He would have us believe that he was unaware that every Tour winner (other than him of course) had doped. He raced at a time when doping was even more of a wild west than when Armstrong raced. It was openly discussed among riders. Before races UCI officials would tell people whether there would be testing, and the word would be spread rider to rider so everyone would know whether to load up on amphetamines or not. Corticosteroid abuse was rampant, and riders lost entire seasons because of it. Steroids were commonly used. It beggars belief for LeMond to pretend he did not know that Armstrong and Armstrong's rivals were doping. He knew just like everyone else inside cycling knew. Even the savvy fans knew.

LeMond went out of his way to cast doubt on Armstrong because he was upset he had been eclipsed by a new American cycling star and was not getting the accolades in public that he felt he was due. As the figurehead of a bike brand, attacking a current and wildly popular star of the sport was stupid. His brand suffered a predictable backlash. This did not require a shadowy conspiracy by Armstrong. Regular Joes were coming into LBSes and telling owners that they would never buy a LeMond bike. He cut his own throat.

These days Betsy Andreu is a professional victim. Her version of events has her innocently going about her way, getting a subpoena for the SCA arbitration, and Armstrong hating her for refusing to lie. She leaves out the part where she was feuding with Armstrong for years before the SCA suit, was hounding journalists to go after Armstrong, and was in part responsible for the SCA case taking place in the first place.

Betsy blames Armstrong every time she trips over a crack in the sidewalk. Her latest was a doozy. Within hours of notification that Armstrong had given an interview with the BBC, she was searching for a news outlet to say Armstrong was not really sorry. Her reasoning was bizarre. Frankie receiving notification that he would be subpoenaed in the qui tam case was held up as evidence that Armstrong is still attacking her family. There was not a hint of acknowledgement that these days Armstrong is doing little more than signing the checks while his lawyers turn over every stone. Of course Frankie is going to get subpoenaed. Everyone remotely involved will be subpoenaed. Meanwhile, over on Cycling News, Frankie was playing dumb by saying he does not understand why he should be subpoenaed because he left the team before Landis joined; it must be vengeance by Armstrong. He seems to forget that he could give information about the riders on Postal who were already doping before Armstrong joined the team, throwing doubt on the fairy tale of Armstrong forcing people to dope that is being pushed by his wife and Travis Tygart.

She also never says anything about how people in every profession rely on a network of friends and contacts. She and her husband burned every bridge to those. No one can trust Frankie after she had him sucker his friends into conversations about doping so he could record what they said. George Hincapie might have said it best when he said Frankie's ex-friends could not understand why he was attacking them for doing the same thing he was doing when he was racing. After stabbing Jon Vaughters in the back, he destroyed his chances of employment with JV's team. Yet, Betsy blames everything on a conspiracy by Armstrong rather than her own inability to move on.

David Walsh is, perhaps, the biggest hypocrite. He is now acting as the chief propagandist for Team Sky and Chris Froome. His hypocritical reversal was so repugnant to Paul Kimmage that Kimmage ended their friendship. All the laughable explanations that were used by Postal to explain Armstrong's performance are now being promoted by Walsh. In a rather digusting display of chutzpah, he has compared those who doubt Froome as dejected Armsrong fans who chose to support Contador instead of Froome just as the Jews chose Barabbas over Jesus. He now mocks the very reasoning he used to decide that Armstrong must be doping because it is being used to question Froome's sudden and unexplainable transmogrification.

It turns out Tygart is a Jesus freak who was offended that Armstrong remained an atheist after surviving cancer. He tried to pressure Floyd into fixing his life by finding Jesus.

One of the few in this whole sordid affair that turned out to have consistency and integrity is Paul Kimmage.


This tome just seems weird at so many levels, and the dashes of bigotry at the end seal it.

[FlashUNC]

The Tygart/Jesus thing is the craziest thing I've read on this forum. And that includes all of Viper's old posts.

[fuzzalow]

That was a core dump of the psyche of epic proportions. I don't quite know whether to marvel at it, be regaled by it or retreat in precaution.

This one is wound in pretty good. Good luck with it.

[Grant McLean]

Judging by the amount of butthurt here, it seems there were--as astounding as it may seem--a lot of people who consider themselves cyclists who could not, as Ullrich would say, put one and one together, even though the obvious was obvious.

Like many here who have followed the sport since the rise of American cycling
in the 80s, it really shouldn't need to be pointed out that there is about a
million miles between "putting one and one together" and PROOF or ADMISSIONS
that certain characters were actually doping in a sea of denial.

All one has to do is read both the defenses and attacks of any rider you care to
follow through the archives of any internet forum. If it was so obvious, why the
zillions of bits of zeros and ones thrown at the question? It's total and utter
historic revisionism to suggest there that there was any widespread consensus on
who was doing what. You're saying the key players at the Livestrong
foundation "knew" about Lance doping?

There are so many suppositions in the way you characterize events, there isn't
enough time to debunk them all. You're pissy with Greg because he sits beside
Virenque in his job as a TV commentator? There's no hope if it has to be
explained that this isn't a good indicator of Greg's feelings on the subject
of doping.

-g

[velomonkey]

One of that crowd, huh?
Fact: Betsy was right all along. Fact: She and Frankie suffered as a result for simply telling the truth. If you want to argue about NOT being on the side of truth - then please, be my guest.



It has been nearly twenty years and she is still at it. She could have moved on with her life at any point. She could have moved on some time during the last two and half years. Instead she is on the horn to the media, lining up an avenue to attack Lance, any time he is mentioned in the press. She enjoys being a professional victim. If Lance gets hit by a bus then she won't know what to do with her life.

The you for the text book example of attacking the messenger while examine the message. You only serve to show that the message was valid.

[mg2ride]

I always knew Armstrong was doping. It did not take much insight. It only took looking at research studies for EPO that showed its performance gains were large compared to the small differences in natural talent at the elite level. With cycling's long standing culture of doping, it was obvious that many riders would use it and once that started no could be competitive without using it.

I spent a lot of time both online and offline trying to convince people that Armstrong was doping. I had the hope that if Armstrong fell then the sport would have to deal honestly with what had become systemic doping instead of deploying its usual method of downplaying the problem by scapegoating a few people. That is not what happened. The opportunity to improve the situation has been lost as people use LA's downfall for their own self-aggrandizement. The behavior of those supposed victims of Armstrong after he was exposed has shown them for what they are and it is a far cry from the innocent people on a quest to protect truth, justice, and the American Way that their version of events would have you believe.

Look at LeMond. It turns out that doping had nothing to do with his feud with Armstrong. He has never said one word about Kelly, Hinault, Fignon, Indurain, Roche, Rooks, etc. These days he is praising Pantani and hanging out with Indurain. He spent part of last year's Tour sitting next to Richard Virenque. About those whose doping cost him wins, not a word.

According to him he only spoke out about Armstrong because he was concerned Armstrong might be doping. This is BS. He would have us believe that he was unaware that every Tour winner (other than him of course) had doped. He raced at a time when doping was even more of a wild west than when Armstrong raced. It was openly discussed among riders. Before races UCI officials would tell people whether there would be testing, and the word would be spread rider to rider so everyone would know whether to load up on amphetamines or not. Corticosteroid abuse was rampant, and riders lost entire seasons because of it. Steroids were commonly used. It beggars belief for LeMond to pretend he did not know that Armstrong and Armstrong's rivals were doping. He knew just like everyone else inside cycling knew. Even the savvy fans knew.

LeMond went out of his way to cast doubt on Armstrong because he was upset he had been eclipsed by a new American cycling star and was not getting the accolades in public that he felt he was due. As the figurehead of a bike brand, attacking a current and wildly popular star of the sport was stupid. His brand suffered a predictable backlash. This did not require a shadowy conspiracy by Armstrong. Regular Joes were coming into LBSes and telling owners that they would never buy a LeMond bike. He cut his own throat.

These days Betsy Andreu is a professional victim. Her version of events has her innocently going about her way, getting a subpoena for the SCA arbitration, and Armstrong hating her for refusing to lie. She leaves out the part where she was feuding with Armstrong for years before the SCA suit, was hounding journalists to go after Armstrong, and was in part responsible for the SCA case taking place in the first place.

Betsy blames Armstrong every time she trips over a crack in the sidewalk. Her latest was a doozy. Within hours of notification that Armstrong had given an interview with the BBC, she was searching for a news outlet to say Armstrong was not really sorry. Her reasoning was bizarre. Frankie receiving notification that he would be subpoenaed in the qui tam case was held up as evidence that Armstrong is still attacking her family. There was not a hint of acknowledgement that these days Armstrong is doing little more than signing the checks while his lawyers turn over every stone. Of course Frankie is going to get subpoenaed. Everyone remotely involved will be subpoenaed. Meanwhile, over on Cycling News, Frankie was playing dumb by saying he does not understand why he should be subpoenaed because he left the team before Landis joined; it must be vengeance by Armstrong. He seems to forget that he could give information about the riders on Postal who were already doping before Armstrong joined the team, throwing doubt on the fairy tale of Armstrong forcing people to dope that is being pushed by his wife and Travis Tygart.

She also never says anything about how people in every profession rely on a network of friends and contacts. She and her husband burned every bridge to those. No one can trust Frankie after she had him sucker his friends into conversations about doping so he could record what they said. George Hincapie might have said it best when he said Frankie's ex-friends could not understand why he was attacking them for doing the same thing he was doing when he was racing. After stabbing Jon Vaughters in the back, he destroyed his chances of employment with JV's team. Yet, Betsy blames everything on a conspiracy by Armstrong rather than her own inability to move on.

David Walsh is, perhaps, the biggest hypocrite. He is now acting as the chief propagandist for Team Sky and Chris Froome. His hypocritical reversal was so repugnant to Paul Kimmage that Kimmage ended their friendship. All the laughable explanations that were used by Postal to explain Armstrong's performance are now being promoted by Walsh. In a rather digusting display of chutzpah, he has compared those who doubt Froome as dejected Armsrong fans who chose to support Contador instead of Froome just as the Jews chose Barabbas over Jesus. He now mocks the very reasoning he used to decide that Armstrong must be doping because it is being used to question Froome's sudden and unexplainable transmogrification.

It turns out Tygart is a Jesus freak who was offended that Armstrong remained an atheist after surviving cancer. He tried to pressure Floyd into fixing his life by finding Jesus.

One of the few in this whole sordid affair that turned out to have consistency and integrity is Paul Kimmage.


Very well said. POTD!

[velomonkey]

Very well said. POTD!


Just bought the new lance Armstrong livestrong arm band. You wear it higher on your arm and tie it off.

[CunegoFan]

The Tygart/Jesus thing is the craziest thing I've read on this forum.

The funny thing is that it is true. Floyd still laughs about Tygart trying to push him back to Jesus. If you knew Floyd then you would really find it hilarious.

[velomonkey]

The funny thing is that it is true. Floyd laughs about Tygart trying to push him back to Jesus.

You know what was funny - those big posters of Lance's face that said "HOPE Rides." That was wicked funny.

[CunegoFan]

You're pissy with Greg because he sits beside
Virenque in his job as a TV commentator? There's no hope if it has to be
explained that this isn't a good indicator of Greg's feelings on the subject
of doping.

LeMond praising Pantani as a great champion and hanging out with Indurain, the EPO user who ended his reign gave a very good indication of LeMond's feelings about doping.

You don't find it funny that LeMond's current talking point is the sport could have changed after Festina but Armstrong's doping prevented it, a position he holds even though at the Tour he sits beside Virenque, who came back from the Festina affair to win the polka dot jersey and place eighth at the 1999 Tour?

[bironi]

So who is going to the first dramatic film based on the LA story being released this fall? Will there be fist fights in the lobby before and after? I can't wait!

[velomonkey]

LeMond praising Pantani as a great champion and hanging out with Indurain, the EPO user who ended his reign gave a very good indication of LeMond's feelings about doping.

Yea, remember that one time LeMond donated 100k to the UCI cause they got a positive test and then suddenly didn't - oh wait, I don't either.

[FlashUNC]

The funny thing is that it is true. Floyd still laughs about Tygart trying to push him back to Jesus. If you knew Floyd then you would really find it hilarious.

Do you have an iota of proof, or was this the aliens who live in the volcano who told you this?

[paulh]

Breaking news:

Support group has been moved to:
www.cunegojgroomsonenutsuck.com

But you could be rick rolled to:

www.lancebuttboys.com

Never the less...weekly meetings at Mellow Johnny's.

Hi, I'm Damiano C. and I'm a Lance Buttboy.

[Bruce K]

Sorry guys.

This is basically going no where.

Feel free to try again if you think you can stay more OT.

BK