squats or sled for cycling?

[Dr Luxurious]

Which do you think is better? Why?

I'd do both if I had the time but alas, I ain't got no time. So which do you think offers the best results for cycling power?

Full bar squats obviously fire up the core as well as the legs - which is great - but presses max the legs. So... ?

[Lewis Moon]

Which do you think is better? Why?

I'd do both if I had the time but alas, I ain't got no time. So which do you think offers the best results for cycling power?

Full bar squats obviously fire up the core as well as the legs - which is great - but presses max the legs. So... ?

Riding.

[wallymann]

lunges w/ bar.

but back to the question, squats always preferable to sled. because: free weights.

[zap]

I've done both in the past. I prefer squats.

[mktng]

Skating :) !

Ive been on the Rideau Canal local to me. 7-8km stretch of ice. Just skate that couple time a week. Ticks all the right boxes in terms of muscle workout, using alot of the cycling muscles. Which is awesome this time of year. Keeps me sane

[Dr Luxurious]

yes, riding is better. but I'm skinny and weak. I can ride my ass off, do big ring seated hill repeats till my knees explode, and still have no power. I NEED to do weights. The first year I hit weights hard was the year I went from a cat 3 to a 1 in 8 months.

Skating :) !

Ive been on the Rideau Canal local to me. 7-8km stretch of ice. Just skate that couple time a week. Ticks all the right boxes in terms of muscle workout, using alot of the cycling muscles. Which is awesome this time of year. Keeps me sane

skating rules! I used to skate a bit back in Wisconsin. It's like doing squats while running a mile at race pace.
but... it's in the mid 60's outside. only ice around is in my Campari

[Climb01742]

Do you have any back issues? Squats with a bar load the back/spine in ways not always helpful. Squats can be done other ways that don't put your back at risk.

Another option I like to do in conjunction with leg presses are step ups. Step ups on a higher platform with a weight vest can work your legs/glutes like crazy.

Leg presses and step ups have the added benefit of being done single legs, which can address any asymmetries you may have. Squats give you greater weight but can't address asymmetries.

[Mikej]

lunges w/ bar.

but back to the question, squats always preferable to sled. because: free weights.

So, holding dumb bells and walking / knee lunging around the gym track would work?

[nooneline]

Squats. As everyone knows, they are a full-body exercise that, done right, have a whole host of benefits to both cycling and general physical fitness.

The reason that you see pictures of renowned cyclists using the sled - and, generally, we're talking about world (http://www.the5thfloor.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/401428_10150440354857634_59088097633_8935647_78520 5288_n.jpg)class sprinters (http://cdn2.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/photos/2008/diaries/annameares/annameares0804/1_600.jpg)here - is that, at a certain point, further strength development (of the legs, via the squat) is limited by your back strength. But most mortals don't hit that point.

[fiamme red]

Squats will engage the core muscles (i.e, the muscles around the trunk and pelvis) much more than the sled, so I'd go with squats.

[mktng]

On topic. Sorta. Was researching speed skating. Came across this picture.
Japanese Speed skater. 5'5 126lbs... whatever shes doing.. i need in on :eek:

[MattTuck]

Look at the thread from a few weeks ago on single leg squats or bulgarian split squats. Good information in there.

I personally think that squats are good and build strength no matter which way you do them. But also think that doing some glute specific isolation exercises is a good idea. This is based on 1) glutes being very strong muscles, capable of delivering a lot of power on the bike 2) sedentary lifestyle for most people results in poor neuromuscular activation of glutes and 3) glute exercises don't have to be about big weight and building strength, since it is much more about activating those neural pathways and reminding the muscles how to fire.

[Dr Luxurious]

Look at the thread from a few weeks ago on single leg squats or bulgarian split squats. Good information in there.


Yeah, that was me who started that thread - and those exercises are great. I just don't think they hit the quads hard enough (for me, anyway).
But - as I think about this - they do offer a lot of overall benefit which is probably a good thing if I have to limit my time under the bar...


By the way - what's up with the Bulgarians and Romanians having their own exercises?

[wallymann]

So, holding dumb bells and walking / knee lunging around the gym track would work?

yep. just no sudden moves, techinique-technique-technique.

[wallymann]

you dont get that kind of shape from doing squats or sled. she does ALOT of laps.

On topic. Sorta. Was researching speed skating. Came across this picture.
Japanese Speed skater. 5'5 126lbs... whatever shes doing.. i need in on :eek:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697895046&stc=1&d=1423582975

[MattTuck]

Yeah, that was me who started that thread - and those exercises are great. I just don't think they hit the quads hard enough (for me, anyway).
But - as I think about this - they do offer a lot of overall benefit which is probably a good thing if I have to limit my time under the bar...


By the way - what's up with the Bulgarians and Romanians having their own exercises?

Quads are good, glutes are better. :banana:

[rugbysecondrow]

Most people (cyclists included) have strong legs, but are week in the core, back and have poor mobility. They do leg press because it allows them to feel good about their strength (legs), while ignore their weaknesses (everything else). The purpose of working out should be improvement of weaknesses though, which means doing squats and building up that functional strength.

With the squat, the ability to balance, bend, mobilize, engage hips & core, develop leg strength, back strength etc. is key.

Split squats, one legged squats, step ups...those are all alright, but learn the basic squat movement first. Get that down, build of strength, then add some variations. Build the base.

[shovelhd]

I can't do squats at an effective weight as it is too hard on old injuries, so I use the seated press. I do plenty of core exercises, with weights and without, so I don't think I'm missing anything by leaving out squats. I also do single leg power step ups and power lunges with barbells.

[sillverchevy]

I like both, but personally found squats to be more effective at targeting/isolating different or more specific musculature depending on foot placement (I understand presses also can/will target different muscles/isolation by foot placement----just stating that I have had better results with squats).

[rugbysecondrow]

I can't do squats at an effective weight as it is too hard on old injuries, so I use the seated press. I do plenty of core exercises, with weights and without, so I don't think I'm missing anything by leaving out squats. I also do single leg power step ups and power lunges with barbells.


Certainly injuries can force you to modify or alter a movement, but barring an injury, the squat is a much better exercise.

On two occasions I herniated two discs in my lower back (once while riding a bike). I stopped doing squats and did leg press instead, so my legs were strong, but my back was weak. I did some core work but none of the pieces really worked together. I started doing the squat again, lighter weight, and once the base strength returned to my back, the weight increased significantly.

[Clydesdale]

If you have not dialed in your form, learn the front squat. Much harder to lean forward and much easier to keep your back in good position.

If you can do back squats with good form - then good full reps at a moderate pace with a weight you can handle is the way to go.

Nothing wrong with leg press but you will engage more muscles with squats.

[11.4]

The secret here that nobody really wants to talk about is that if your hips (and sometimes other non-quad muscles) aren't activating properly, you arch your lower back while doing squats, which both loads your knees and loads your back. Your hips have to be strong. Doing sled presses isolates your legs from your glutes, which defeats this important issue. Strong sprinters have so much power in the hips (they're much better than quads for sheer power, not so much for fast repetitive contractions) that when they do power workouts they favor the glutes so much the quads don't get worked as hard. Hence some sprinters doing sleds. The other reason is simply that sprinters who pick up a back problem can usually do sleds when they can't do actual squats, dead lifts, cleans, etc.

As for front squats, as long as you are keeping the bar over your feet so you are in balance, they have you lift with a more upright stance. It's a bit safer if your form isn't good -- it naturally pulls your knees back a bit and keeps your lumbar spine arched a bit more, which are both good. However, on the bike you want to be strong in a much more horizontal position, so I wouldn't suggest front squats without back squats as well. Back squats tend to give the best results in sheer power, but adding some front squats works many of the muscles slightly differently and builds a more balanced musculature. Lastly, front squats don't work for many people -- the ideal form is with your elbows out in front of you and your forearms on top of your upper arms and your wrists dropped back to your collarbone and holding the bar there. Many people can't get remotely close to that position, and do front squats in various ways such as by crossing the arms across the chest. These change the benefits to your core. It's great to develop the greater flexibility that lets you do front squats; just don't be surprised if you can't get there properly and don't necessarily just depend on one of the compromise positions.

Ultimately, you can squat 400 lbs but not be fast on the bike. That's for many reasons, but squatting is never as fast as a pedal stroke (I would never recommend doing squat jumps) and your body tends to improve rather specifically based on what it's trained to do ... so if you train with slower movements you don't develop faster movements directly. For that, it helps to build core strength with the squat and the dead lift, but then do cleans. Some people like to do snatches or full clean-and-jerks, but a clean is all you really need for cycling (the others offer some benefit to core strength, but you should be getting that already).

And then there are plyos. For cycling some of the best power workouts are plyos. You don't have to do long jumps because your sport doesn't really have you do anything like that kind of extension. Box jumps are superb, and while Japanese keirin riders like to get on YouTube doing box jumps up to the level of their own shoulders, frankly, you get great power if you are doing good jumps up to around 24 inches or so. Don't cheat on them (raising your knees so you land in a deep squat and haven't really lifted your body weight that far).

For those who want to do power workouts and just have some variety, or something you can do around home, sandbags are always good. Not just climbing stairs with a bag on your shoulders, but basically a clean with a sandbag or basic plyos with them. Think of actions that throw the bag -- I watched Hoy once with a 120 lb two-handled bag basically squatting down, flinging the bag in the air and jumping forward so the bag went vertically well over his head, then the jump took him forward so it landed behind him. Lots of options here. Mind you, I'm anything but a crossfitter (some crossfit trainers love sandbags) but they can be used where you may not have access to bulkier equipment.

The big things that comes up in this thread is that you really really need a coach, or at least need to have someone video your lifts from all angles so you learn what you're doing wrong. A squat should not hurt your back -- if anything, it should strengthen the surrounding musculature and build the participation of the glutes so you never feel lumbar spinal problems again. Ditto for knee concerns. If you encounter knee or lower back problems, your position is almost certainly wrong and you can actually resolve the problems by lifting with good form. It sometimes takes quite a bit of self-analysis or coaching to figure out the issues -- some people have hip sockets that require different foot positions, some have flexibility issues in the supporting musculature (adductors and so on) and some have imbalances in the line of muscles that contribute to a lift (and if one, like your glutes, is weak, it hurts everything else).

[SlackMan]

Squats no question. It sounds extreme, but (after a light warm up set) pick a weight that you can seemingly only do 10 good reps. Then, still holding the bar, take a couple of deep breaths and push out an 11th. Another couple of breaths, and then a 12th. Do that all the way to 20. You might throw up at the end and may be unable to walk down stairs. :eek: At the end of the set your lungs and heart will be about to explode, so in addition to building massive strength, you get a cardio workout that few interval workouts can match. You only need one set of these, but it is one of the best workouts I have ever done.

[93legendti]

Squats.

And wall sits...love that exercise.

[11.4]

Squats.

And wall sits...love that exercise.

Wall squats are how young squatters learn to poop.

[11.4]

One additional point that seems to be wavering in this thread is about the weights you squat. Squatting something much less than what you're capable of has aerobic benefit and also can be effective at bodybuilding (which, let's face it, is what most people here are trying to accomplish in one form or another anyway). If you aren't really trying to become a power rider, that's fine. If you're trying to increase your power output significantly, especially if you don't want to bulk up a lot while doing it, the path is to use closer to maximal weights. That's still got to be what's maximal while retaining good form, of course. But doing bigger lifts is better to prevent osteoporosis, better to build strength without adding body weight, better to make you a more powerful cyclist. It's a more efficient workout because you can accomplish in 30 minutes what might take 90 minutes with lower weights. If you are older or have any skeletal problems, it doesn't mean you can't get there. Start slower, work with good coaching and videos and good form, and be diligent. You can get there. I've coached many cyclists with serious lower back or knee or hip problems, and if they put the work in they get to where they are lifting well over body weight and actually building the structures that help keep your back, knees, etc. healthy. If you get hurt along the way (and almost anybody lifting seriously does strain something because they drop their form -- pushing too hard or just not paying attention or lifting when not feeling good or whatever), it almost certainly happened because of an error in your form or possibly your program. Just back off, come at it again without mistakes, and you won't lose much time. But definitely lift the bigger weights. In particular, as you get older and potentially lose absolute strength, your lifts will get lighter, but you'll be starting from a better point and you'll be in better shape and more resistant to accidents arising from bike crashes, moving the refrigerator, or whatever. Lifting isn't something to do while watching Miley Cyrus videos at the gym. Much more than cycling, you want to be focused in every single lift from before you grab the bar to when you stand back. And then equally focused in every stretch, every flexibility exercise, every muscle activation, and so on. Enjoy the birds singing while you're on your bike, but in the gym, save yourself the injury and lift heavy, lift with focus, and you won't go wrong.

[bikenut]

I agree with the previuos. I also agree with the point in the book "racing weight" suggesting to lift heavy for fewer reps in order to complement your aerobic training which in essencse is usually a high rep low weight workout eg: pedaling thousands of repititions while cycling. Low rep heavy weight also allows me to gain strength without frying my legs thus negativily affecting my ride the following day. At my ripe old age of 49, the most important factor in my lifting is flawless form. If my form wavers, I am going to heavy. Must keep the ego in check or risk injury.

[false_Aest]

If I didn't have a lot of time for a leg workout I'd to the following:

Squat, deadlift, box jump + the following:

My PT called these "Penny Pick-Ups"

1. Put an object on the floor (we used a 3lb medicine ball to start off with)
2. Stand on 1 leg.
3. Tuck your other leg behind it.
3. Squat, pick up object, return to standing, squat, put it down, return to standing. That's 1 rep.

You want to keep your torso as upright and straight as possible -- this is not a bending over exercise. You also want to make sure your knee tracks in a straight line + doesn't wobble left/right. Keep your core tight through out.

Obviously you want to do these w/out your other foot touching the floor.
Add weight when it becomes easy OR try them on a Bosu ball (blue side down is easier than blue side up)

[verticaldoug]

alternate.

There is more to gain from varying movement over time and lifts than just repeating the same movement over and over again.

When you do sled, you can do drop sets. A world of hurt.

[malcolm]

Most people (cyclists included) have strong legs, but are week in the core, back and have poor mobility. They do leg press because it allows them to feel good about their strength (legs), while ignore their weaknesses (everything else). The purpose of working out should be improvement of weaknesses though, which means doing squats and building up that functional strength.

With the squat, the ability to balance, bend, mobilize, engage hips & core, develop leg strength, back strength etc. is key.

Split squats, one legged squats, step ups...those are all alright, but learn the basic squat movement first. Get that down, build of strength, then add some variations. Build the base.

This.
Squats done properly are not necessarily bad for your back or at least not worse than a lot of exercises that people do to get around squatting.
Nothing builds strength and power like squats. If you've never done them you should spend a while with light weights and develop proper form. Contrary to popular belief it's a very complicated compound movement. I think you should have 5-10 minutes of overall warm up first, treadmill, elliptical etc, then move up the weight slowly until you get to what you are going to work out with. Leg presses/sled, I'm not really a fan, like rugby said lets you put a lot of plates on and feel like you are doing something. I do use them in moderate weight after squats to finish off the legs. Also will do single legs with dumbells or split squats with dumbells after squatting and weighted single leg romanian dead lifts as well.

I used to power lift in another life and I sucked at it just about as much as I do cycling but it was the only time in my life I had a clearly definable 6 pack and I did no dedicated abdomen work. Almost all my core came from compound basic power movements.

[allezdude]

... Ultimately, you can squat 400 lbs but not be fast on the bike. That's for many reasons, but squatting is never as fast as a pedal stroke (I would never recommend doing squat jumps) and your body tends to improve rather specifically based on what it's trained to do ... .

11.4, just curious, do you mean squat jumps with weights or does this include bodyweight squat jumps too? just curious b/c I've started the Esquire mobility/agility program which includes "frog jumps" and jumping jacks which start from a squat into a jumping jack. i.e., both of these are squat jumps to me. just don;t want to do them if they're not a good idea. thanks

[11.4]

11.4, just curious, do you mean squat jumps with weights or does this include bodyweight squat jumps too? just curious b/c I've started the Esquire mobility/agility program which includes "frog jumps" and jumping jacks which start from a squat into a jumping jack. i.e., both of these are squat jumps to me. just don;t want to do them if they're not a good idea. thanks

Squat jumps with weights. It's somewhat relative. You can probably do plyometric jumps with a couple kettle balls in your hands, though one will almost certainly be accelerating the weight or not lifting it as high as the rest of your body mass (either one is cheating). I'm just saying not to put 135 or 195 lbs on your shoulders and go do jumps. Step ups may work, but even so, there are other safer ways to load your system.

[2LeftCleats]

A lot of focus here on glutes and quads.

What about specific exercises for hip flexors and hamstrings? Do you do them? I know lunges will work hamstrings but do you do leg curls or other leg work?

[malcolm]

A lot of focus here on glutes and quads.

What about specific exercises for hip flexors and hamstrings? Do you do them? I know lunges will work hamstrings but do you do leg curls or other leg work?

http://functionalresistancetraining.com/exercises/single-leg-romanian-deadlift

single leg romanian deadlift works the glutes and hamstrings.

I do leg/hamstring curls, not as a primary exercise though. I do them after I've fatigued the muscle with something else like the above.

[ericssonboi]

This post is pretty bang on.
It all depends on each person's goals.
You may squat 400lbs but this won't make you fastest on a 4-6hr ride, but It may help you win a kerin race


The secret here that nobody really wants to talk about is that if your hips (and sometimes other non-quad muscles) aren't activating properly, you arch your lower back while doing squats, which both loads your knees and loads your back. Your hips have to be strong. Doing sled presses isolates your legs from your glutes, which defeats this important issue. Strong sprinters have so much power in the hips (they're much better than quads for sheer power, not so much for fast repetitive contractions) that when they do power workouts they favor the glutes so much the quads don't get worked as hard. Hence some sprinters doing sleds. The other reason is simply that sprinters who pick up a back problem can usually do sleds when they can't do actual squats, dead lifts, cleans, etc.

As for front squats, as long as you are keeping the bar over your feet so you are in balance, they have you lift with a more upright stance. It's a bit safer if your form isn't good -- it naturally pulls your knees back a bit and keeps your lumbar spine arched a bit more, which are both good. However, on the bike you want to be strong in a much more horizontal position, so I wouldn't suggest front squats without back squats as well. Back squats tend to give the best results in sheer power, but adding some front squats works many of the muscles slightly differently and builds a more balanced musculature. Lastly, front squats don't work for many people -- the ideal form is with your elbows out in front of you and your forearms on top of your upper arms and your wrists dropped back to your collarbone and holding the bar there. Many people can't get remotely close to that position, and do front squats in various ways such as by crossing the arms across the chest. These change the benefits to your core. It's great to develop the greater flexibility that lets you do front squats; just don't be surprised if you can't get there properly and don't necessarily just depend on one of the compromise positions.

Ultimately, you can squat 400 lbs but not be fast on the bike. That's for many reasons, but squatting is never as fast as a pedal stroke (I would never recommend doing squat jumps) and your body tends to improve rather specifically based on what it's trained to do ... so if you train with slower movements you don't develop faster movements directly. For that, it helps to build core strength with the squat and the dead lift, but then do cleans. Some people like to do snatches or full clean-and-jerks, but a clean is all you really need for cycling (the others offer some benefit to core strength, but you should be getting that already).

And then there are plyos. For cycling some of the best power workouts are plyos. You don't have to do long jumps because your sport doesn't really have you do anything like that kind of extension. Box jumps are superb, and while Japanese keirin riders like to get on YouTube doing box jumps up to the level of their own shoulders, frankly, you get great power if you are doing good jumps up to around 24 inches or so. Don't cheat on them (raising your knees so you land in a deep squat and haven't really lifted your body weight that far).

For those who want to do power workouts and just have some variety, or something you can do around home, sandbags are always good. Not just climbing stairs with a bag on your shoulders, but basically a clean with a sandbag or basic plyos with them. Think of actions that throw the bag -- I watched Hoy once with a 120 lb two-handled bag basically squatting down, flinging the bag in the air and jumping forward so the bag went vertically well over his head, then the jump took him forward so it landed behind him. Lots of options here. Mind you, I'm anything but a crossfitter (some crossfit trainers love sandbags) but they can be used where you may not have access to bulkier equipment.

The big things that comes up in this thread is that you really really need a coach, or at least need to have someone video your lifts from all angles so you learn what you're doing wrong. A squat should not hurt your back -- if anything, it should strengthen the surrounding musculature and build the participation of the glutes so you never feel lumbar spinal problems again. Ditto for knee concerns. If you encounter knee or lower back problems, your position is almost certainly wrong and you can actually resolve the problems by lifting with good form. It sometimes takes quite a bit of self-analysis or coaching to figure out the issues -- some people have hip sockets that require different foot positions, some have flexibility issues in the supporting musculature (adductors and so on) and some have imbalances in the line of muscles that contribute to a lift (and if one, like your glutes, is weak, it hurts everything else).

[MattTuck]

A lot of focus here on glutes and quads.

What about specific exercises for hip flexors and hamstrings? Do you do them? I know lunges will work hamstrings but do you do leg curls or other leg work?

Mountain climbers for hip flexors.

Swiss ball hamstring curl (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAYtwM95-ug) for those that don't have access to a gym machine. The nice thing about these is that you activate your glutes and core for stability. I think they suffer from a problem that many hamstring exercises do, which is that you're not working them over their entire range of motion. Many people have tight hamstrings and the goal shouldn't just be to stretch them, but rather to build strength over the entire R.O.M.

[Dr Luxurious]

COOL! Thanks for the excellent replies!

Re: glutes. I found a cool glute/ham exercise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBh01L9MlkY
gonna make one of those...


So, what about leg extensions? Any real point to them for our purposes?

[11.4]

Here's an interesting article from a weightlifting forum that addresses a number of these issues with specific tests and exercises:

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/3-reasons-you-don-t-squat-more-and-what-to-do-about-it

And here's the exercise you're looking for:

http://www.legendfitness.com/products/body_weight_stations/gluteham_developers/pro_series_gluteham_developer_3214.aspx

We're bikies, so we get this -- new hardware is always the answer.

Actually a gluts-ham developer is one of the most valuable devices you can get for cycling -- our sport does a half-way decent job of building the front of your legs, and this does the rest. You can load yourself with weights, or just enjoy this in front of the television. It's deadly painful if you are lacking in that quarter. This does something like that homemade exercise posted in the video, but refines it a lot and gives you a lot more leverage to work it harder. This is a pro version and there are lesser ones available that probably suit you just fine. And they come up on Craigslist regularly at very low prices.

[zap]

And here's the exercise you're looking for:

http://www.legendfitness.com/products/body_weight_stations/gluteham_developers/pro_series_gluteham_developer_3214.aspx

We're bikies, so we get this -- new hardware is always the answer.



Interesting, more complex (allowing more workout options) than what I have. So…….new hardware. :rolleyes:

[fatallightning]

I 5x5 starting strength in the off season. So lots of squats. 10 min light cardio warm up, 2x warming up the bar, then 5x, 3x, 2x weight progression, then 3x5 at the work weight. Lifting heavy. Alternate bench/overhead press. Then finish with a 1x5 deadlift. Closer to race time I'll alternate finishing with the DL with finishing with 3x5 explosive single leg presses on the sled. That for me, helps bring snap around. Heavy and slow squats doesn't help with the snap, just the brute. So something to bring around the fast twitch as I taper into racing. I don't have the aptitude to power clean, or I would do those instead.