Culture of Fear and Cycling

[Duende]

Upon reading some posts in regards to helmets on another thread, it really got me thinking that many of the folks here share similar views to my own on the matter. That was quite refreshing to see.

I'm getting close to fifty now. Raced until my twenties, but then other interests and activities took over my time.

I mention this, because I never wore a helmet until just this last year. The one I was required to use for races was a padded leather Cinelli hair net. I'm sure you all remember those.

I suscumbed to the pressure to wear a helmet because I pretty much got sick of folks lecturing me on rides, offering unasked for "wisdoms", or worse yelling condescending remarks at me on the road. Like if I was an "experienced rider" I'd know better!

So I wear a helmet now on rides, but not when I commute. It also gets the girlfriend off my back as she has definitely bought in to this safety hysteria.

This is actually contrary to all logic, because I face way more hazardous traffic in my commutes then when I'm 20-50 miles out of town. Plus, the worst cycling accident I've had in recent years happened on a commute. Go figure.

Anyways, where safety is concerned, I'm much more obsessive about the condition of my bike. Always checking my tires, front hub, handlebars/stem Checking spoke tension etc......
Can't help but think that this culture of fear is further fueled by a need to sell helmets and other related products.

What a world we live in.

[Ralph]

I've been on at least two rides over my long riding career where a helmet saved a life. Both were freak accidents that no one saw coming, did not envolve vehicles, or traffic, and they happended to experienced riders. Both times helmets were destroyed beyond use, and rider walked away. Think what you will, deny risk, and pay your life and health insurance up. And hey....it is your head I guess.....as long as you don't ask society or love ones to pay your medical bills it's Ok with me.

[numbskull]

Uh, I think it works something like this.

Nobody wants to wear a helmet so not wearing a helmet might weaken other's resolve to wear one and then they might get hurt in which case it would be your fault for which you should be punished but since that might not happen it is better to make a law against not wearing helmets so you can be punished in advance for being so obviously irresponsible and unconcerned about the welfare of others but since laws are hard to get passed and may not be reliably enforced it is best and justified to yell at you, which you clearly deserve for setting a bad example.

So basically it is a lot like being married. Which is why most of us end up wearing them.

[Louis]

Do we really have to go through this yet again? OK, in that case I'll play:

In my opinion a sensible precaution that in no way detracts from the cycling experience is hardly something being done out of "fear."

I don't run down steps while carrying scissors not because I'm afraid of falling, (although given the choice I would rather it not happen) but because it makes sense and I'm less likely to be badly injured should I stumble.

Cost vs Benefit.

Do what you like, but if I see you out on the road without a helmet I'll wonder why you aren't wearing one. I won't lecture you about it, but I will notice.

[Tony T]

Can't help but think that this culture of fear is further fueled by a need to sell helmets and other related products.

What a world we live in.

I may have missed it, but I've never seen that in any ad's for helmets.

Helmet usage is a suggestion, not a law (but most group rides require one)

What are your thoughts on seatbelt usage. Now that is not a suggestion in most states. (I also find it interesting that there are states that have laws requiring seatbelt usage, but not for a motorcycle helmet)

[Llewellyn]

Over here it is law to wear a helmet while cycling, and has been for about 20 years. While I would prefer to have the choice of whether to wear one or not, I'd prefer not to pay the fine more.

And to be honest I really don't notice wearing it these days. And it certainly puts my wife mind at ease while I'm out riding. But I don't wear a helmet out of fear.

[velomonkey]

I suscumbed to the pressure to wear a helmet

I'm not gonna debate, I'm not gonna proclaim I'm right.

I'm just gonna say - the above quote misrepresents the vast majority of other people's view. I wear a helmet not because of what I'm gonna do, I wear it cause what someone else is gonna do. And it's saved me massive head trauma on 2 occasions - each occasion being someone in a car driving poorly.

You don't want to wear one, you hurting nobody but yourself. :bike:

[witcombusa]

Upon reading some posts in regards to helmets on another thread, it really got me thinking that many of the folks here share similar views to my own on the matter. That was quite refreshing to see.

I'm getting close to fifty now. Raced until my twenties, but then other interests and activities took over my time.

I mention this, because I never wore a helmet until just this last year. The one I was required to use for races was a padded leather Cinelli hair net. I'm sure you all remember those.

I suscumbed to the pressure to wear a helmet because I pretty much got sick of folks lecturing me on rides, offering unasked for "wisdoms", or worse yelling condescending remarks at me on the road. Like if I was an "experienced rider" I'd know better!

So I wear a helmet now on rides, but not when I commute. It also gets the girlfriend off my back as she has definitely bought in to this safety hysteria.

This is actually contrary to all logic, because I face way more hazardous traffic in my commutes then when I'm 20-50 miles out of town. Plus, the worst cycling accident I've had in recent years happened on a commute. Go figure.

Anyways, where safety is concerned, I'm much more obsessive about the condition of my bike. Always checking my tires, front hub, handlebars/stem Checking spoke tension etc......
Can't help but think that this culture of fear is further fueled by a need to sell helmets and other related products.

What a world we live in.


You have only yourself to blame by "going along" with their "demands". Basically you just gave in.

So ya, "what a world we live in".

[eddief]

just so long as you get your vaccinations. And never suscum to those fear mongering helmet companies.

[FlashUNC]

I've had helmets save me from concussions in two separate crashes.

If I'm far from home on lightly traveled roads, the last thing I want is a head injury that leaves me unable to get aid in addition to whatever road rash/broken bones I may have.

Is it going to stop every head injury? No, of course not. Is it simple insurance and just one more layer of easy protection? Absolutely.

You can maintain your bike all you want. That doesn't stop the "Stuff Happens" category.

Culture of fear? Yeah. I'm afraid of being in a ditch with no one knowing about it because I'm too dazed to call 911.

[Hepmike]

I don't think anybody is selling helmets to fuel (or to be fueled by) "a culture of fear"...helmets sell because they work, and there is a demand for them because of that. If you choose not to wear one, and have been lucky enough not to need one- good for you.
I wear one because it has saved my life (or at the very least- being hooked up to a ventilator)- on two occasions now. I'd never not wear one now. Seems like a minor inconvenience.

Don't wear one if you don't want to- it doesn't bother me. You won't know you needed one until it's too late. And by then, you may not know or understand anything anyway, if you know what I mean.

[Dave Ferris]

Fwiw, one of the things that bugs about cycling (mainly a runner guy) is wearing a helmet. I've always worn one, but not happy about having something on my head that obtrusive and uncomfortable.

I just purchased the newer Giro Synte helmet and after two road rides and two mountain rides with some pretty steep climbing - I barely notice I have anything on my head.

I still don't ride my road bike out on the busy streets of LA at peak traffic times or at night.

[fuzzalow]

Uh, I think it works something like this.

Nobody wants to wear a helmet so not wearing a helmet might weaken other's resolve to wear one and then they might get hurt in which case it would be your fault for which you should be punished but since that might not happen it is better to make a law against not wearing helmets so you can be punished in advance for being so obviously irresponsible and unconcerned about the welfare of others but since laws are hard to get passed and may not be reliably enforced it is best and justified to yell at you, which you clearly deserve for setting a bad example.

So basically it is a lot like being married. Which is why most of us end up wearing them.

:) Admirable existentialism which betrays the writer to be not as numb as his nom [de plume].

Back to the OP: sometimes I ride sans helmet, my choice for reasons not pertinent here. And at times when a wag yells out to me "Where's your helmet?", I simply reply "Nun 'yuh". And the world still turns.

[choke]

I agree that there is a 'culture of fear' in regards to wearing a helmet, but that applies to many things in society today. We are constantly being told A or B is dangerous and only C or D can protect us from the danger. I'm not exactly sure how that came about but it appears to me that it will only get worse in the future.

Many cyclists seem to think that a rider without a helmet is some kind of pariah and they are often looked down upon. I've even read one state (on this forum) that they would not go on a ride with someone who wasn't wearing one.

[Frankwurst]

I pretty much wear a helmet all the time simply because I don't find it uncomfortable. I personally don't care if you're pro or con on the issue and don't care if you wear one or not. In fact it pisses me off when people try to tell other people how to live their lives. My first one was one of these.

[dustyrider]

I wear a helmet because I've fallen off my bike before!

[Louis]

"Culture of fear" is the idiots who won't let their kids take the MMR vaccine or the cop who arrested Henry Louis Gates as he tried to enter his own home, or the neighbor who originally reported the "incident."

I don't think it has a whole lot to do with cyclists and whether or not they wear helmets. It might apply to cyclists who don't ride on the road, only on trails and MUTs, but I don't know enough about them to say.

[Louis]

I wear a helmet because I've fallen off my bike before!

Stop it :eek:

Now you're fear-mongering.

[JeffS]

I've had helmets save me from concussions in two separate crashes.


I wear one because it has saved my life (or at the very least- being hooked up to a ventilator)- on two occasions now.


How much extra did you have to pay for the precognition feature?

----------

Everyone I know is mitigating risks randomly; worrying about things that will never happen and ignoring the impending.

If people would do what you want, and leave me to manage my own risks, I'd have no problem. Unfortunately, these sorts are intent on imposing their fears and beliefs on others.

[Louis]

How much extra did you have to pay for the precognition feature?

It doesn't take a whole lot of prognostication to conclude that you might have accident while cycling.

[Seramount]

I've crashed not wearing a helmet and I've crashed wearing a helmet.

having protective head gear provided a far better experience.

[Hepmike]

[QUOTE=JeffS;1703733]How much extra did you have to pay for the precognition feature?

----------

Everyone I know is mitigating risks randomly; worrying about things that will never happen and ignoring the impending.

Precognition? OK...do you tie your shoes, brush your teeth...wear underpants?

Same logic, smart guy.

[fuzzalow]

[QUOTE=JeffS;1703733]How much extra did you have to pay for the precognition feature?

----------

Everyone I know is mitigating risks randomly; worrying about things that will never happen and ignoring the impending.

Precognition? OK...do you tie your shoes, brush your teeth...wear underpants?

Same logic, smart guy.

I might suggest the preceding keywords that engendered the riposte about "precognition" is "two". RIF.

[jlwdm]

Culture of fear? I don't have fear when I ride, even though I do a lot of night riding. My wife and mother don't like me night riding though.

I wear a helmet and do not even notice it. I feel naked if I forget to put it on.

Jeff

[cinema]

It also gets the girlfriend off my back as she has definitely bought in to this safety hysteria.


This.

[Duende]

Uh, I think it works something like this.

Nobody wants to wear a helmet so not wearing a helmet might weaken other's resolve to wear one and then they might get hurt in which case it would be your fault for which you should be punished but since that might not happen it is better to make a law against not wearing helmets so you can be punished in advance for being so obviously irresponsible and unconcerned about the welfare of others but since laws are hard to get passed and may not be reliably enforced it is best and justified to yell at you, which you clearly deserve for setting a bad example.

So basically it is a lot like being married. Which is why most of us end up wearing them.

Love this!

I actually wasn't trying to bring up the helmet debate. But more the pressuring (sometimes fear based) to make everyone conform to the same practices.

[Louis]

But more the pressuring (sometimes fear based) to make everyone conform to the same practices.

Hmmmm, I wonder how often that happens?

http://home.isr.umich.edu/files/2012/01/791676441-1024x682.jpg

[Duende]

Touchè!

[rounder]

I always wear a helmet because i think it is a good idea.

I was riding down a hill a few years ago and flatted on the front wheel. The tire peeled off the rim and lost controll. I tried to control the wheel but could not and the bike skidded across the road. The helmet had scratches all over it but was not broken. My elbow bled a lot but was not broken. Anyway, my opinion is to find a helmet you like and wear it.

[FlashUNC]

How much extra did you have to pay for the precognition feature?

----------

Everyone I know is mitigating risks randomly; worrying about things that will never happen and ignoring the impending.

If people would do what you want, and leave me to manage my own risks, I'd have no problem. Unfortunately, these sorts are intent on imposing their fears and beliefs on others.

I really could care less what someone else does. Want to ride helmet-less? Go and have a ball.

But helmets have saved my bacon in two specific instances. Once in a crit and one riding solo where I suffered a serious arm injury and needed a lift from the friendly neighborhood EMT. Both times the helmet did its job. Did I know I'd need it? Course not. But ride for a couple decades and you figure that your number will be up for a knock on the head at some point.

This notion that helmets are some cynical attempt at capitalizing on and perpetuating fear is absurd. Everyone has a sliding scale of acceptable risk. If someone wants to ride helmet-less, good on 'em. I knew a guy in Charlotte who rode a unicycle on mountain bike trails. I think that's catastrophically stupid. But as long as he likes it, good on him.

Modern helmets are light, breathe well, and even aero. You're already dressing up in a clown suit to ride a bike. I figure a bit of foam on the head won't exactly move me from Steve McQueen cool to Steve Urkel dork.

[professerr]

In all the endless variations of this thread on helmets, I’ve not once read a post by someone who crashed, hit their head and said not wearing his helmet saved him.

[Louis]

Years ago, early in the seat-belt debate, some folks argued that they were dangerous because it was safer to be thrown clear of the car, so you never know.

[abalone]

Upon reading some posts in regards to helmets on another thread, it really got me thinking that many of the folks here share similar views to my own on the matter. That was quite refreshing to see.

I'm getting close to fifty now. Raced until my twenties, but then other interests and activities took over my time.

I mention this, because I never wore a helmet until just this last year. The one I was required to use for races was a padded leather Cinelli hair net. I'm sure you all remember those.

I suscumbed to the pressure to wear a helmet because I pretty much got sick of folks lecturing me on rides, offering unasked for "wisdoms", or worse yelling condescending remarks at me on the road. Like if I was an "experienced rider" I'd know better!

So I wear a helmet now on rides, but not when I commute. It also gets the girlfriend off my back as she has definitely bought in to this safety hysteria.

This is actually contrary to all logic, because I face way more hazardous traffic in my commutes then when I'm 20-50 miles out of town. Plus, the worst cycling accident I've had in recent years happened on a commute. Go figure.

Anyways, where safety is concerned, I'm much more obsessive about the condition of my bike. Always checking my tires, front hub, handlebars/stem Checking spoke tension etc......
Can't help but think that this culture of fear is further fueled by a need to sell helmets and other related products.

What a world we live in.



You must be referencing the Tom Ritchey thread that I participated in and received alot of criticism for.

Its a good thing to wear a helmet. Safety first.

[Frankwurst]

In all the endless variations of this thread on helmets, I’ve not once read a post by someone who crashed, hit their head and said not wearing his helmet saved him.

How would he know?:beer:

[bluesea]

Interestingly instead of a culture of fear, I've tended to see it as a culture of conformity. Mixed in somewhere, of course, with a basis in common sense.

[Ken Robb]

I did a face-plant that shattered my "unbreakable" glasses and helmet but I had no head trauma. I might not have survived had I not been wearing a helmet.

[bironi]

And the damn pro cyclists got into the conspiracy a couple plus decades back because their girl friends and wives were on their backs and the back of UCI officials. It might make sense to take a survey of the pro peloton. Would they like to go helmetless?

[Hepmike]

And the damn pro cyclists got into the conspiracy a couple plus decades back because their girl friends and wives were on their backs and the back of UCI officials. It might make sense to take a survey of the pro peloton. Would they like to go helmetless?

I spent the better part of last Summer riding with a former (Italian) pro. Thousands of miles. And he never wore a helmet. He would (and still does) make a very impassioned and compelling argument against wearing them. A very-intelligent, well spoken dude.

It never swayed me, I make my choices and he makes his. At the very least it was an interesting topic to help keep me distracted from all of the suffering he handed me.

[Louis]

Part of it has to be a "hipness" thing - guys saying "I'm just way too cool to wear a goofy helmet."

Sort of like me leaving BOTH the valve cap AND the holding nut off my tubes.

Livin' life on the wild side!

[Pastashop]

Disclaimer: I usually wear a helmet, for reasons we shan't discuss. What I do want to introduce is some statistics- and physics-based considerations.

I was reading a study somewhere... can't find the link, that neck injuries occur more frequently than blunt-trauma head injuries in bike crashes. This actually makes quite a bit of physical sense: the horizontal speed of the head during a crash is usually (for a rider going at a reasonable speed) larger than the vertical (downward) speed. So, the momentum the head has going down and hitting the pavement is lower than it has continuing to go straight. (Newton's 2nd law.) So, torquing the head about the axis of the neck is a real concern.

In the neck trauma case, it was hypothesized that the larger diameter and the protrusions of a helmeted head cause greater torque on the neck when the helmet snags on the pavement and, hence, greater likelihood / severity of the injury to the neck. It was also proposed that the added energy dissipation of the styrofoam-based helmet in a blunt-impact event is small compared to what the skull provides.

This was all more than 10 years ago, and I don't know if new work has been done since to prove / disprove these things, or if helmet designs actually did something about the energy dissipation amount. And since I cannot find the studies I am recalling, nor verify their methods, it remains a thought experiment.

Notably, there is a basic trade-off between the amount of torque reduction (beneficial) and the amount of cushioning in helmet design. The thicker the foam, the more cushioning, but also more torque on the neck in the event of the helmet dragging on the pavement. I just might try to do a basic calculation to get a better sense of the magnitudes...

But to get around the trade-off, I would choose the roundest, smoothest shape to the helmet. I would also try to make the shell-asphalt interface as slippery as possible -- perhaps using some sacrificial material that would shear off very easily, but maintain decent compressive strength up to some threshold.

[SoCalSteve]

I've crashed not wearing a helmet and I've crashed wearing a helmet.

having protective head gear provided a far better experience.

I think this sums it up perfectly! Nothing more needs to be said...:)

To the OP, I hope you have GREAT medical insurance.

Just sayin'

Steve

[Grant McLean]

I don't think it has a whole lot to do with cyclists and whether or not they wear helmets. It might apply to cyclists who don't ride on the road, only on trails and MUTs, but I don't know enough about them to say.

Have a read through British sociologist (and cyclist) Dave Horton's work.

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/09/fear-of-cycling-01-essay-in-five-parts.html

It's pretty clear there is a culture of fear being constructed around cycling,
because the majority of the population is now afraid to do it. In several
large studies, about 60% of the population has said they would like to
ride more, but are afraid to. Why have people become afraid of cycling?
Is it more dangerous than other activities? No, gardening is more dangerous
(look it up) Cycling is safer than ever (look it up). Yet the culture of fear
is growing. The safety gear debate is just one brick in the wall of fear.

-g

[Dead Man]

People talk about the "peace of mind" of wearing a helmet. That's exactly why I don't wear one- if you need "peace of mind," you're doing something dangerous. And worse - a helmet is not magic bubble of protection; if you get into a very bad crash, the helmet isn't likely to save your life. So your "peace of mind" is not only annulé, its even detrimental to your health.

I ride like I am not wearing a helmet. That will decrease my odds of being killed in a crash significantly more than wearing a helmet.

Helmets aren't bad things, but the psychological effect they have on their wearer certainly seems to be.

[SoCalSteve]

People talk about the "peace of mind" of wearing a helmet. That's exactly why I don't wear one- if you need "peace of mind," you're doing something dangerous. And worse - a helmet is not magic bubble of protection; if you get into a very bad crash, the helmet isn't likely to save your life. So your "peace of mind" is not only annulé, its even detrimental to your health.

I ride like I am not wearing a helmet. That will decrease my odds of being killed in a crash significantly more than wearing a helmet.

Helmets aren't bad things, but the psychological effect they have on their wearer certainly seems to be.

I like to ride like I'm not wearing a helmet WHILE Im wearing a helmet...that way I have all the bases AND my head covered!!!

[Grant McLean]

I ride like I am not wearing a helmet. That will decrease my odds of being killed in a crash significantly more than wearing a helmet.


Agree that being aware of your own behaviour is an important part of avoiding trouble.
People take risks when wearing protection they might not otherwise take.

When it comes to helmets, generally, studies have found that about 44% of
cycling fatalities are from head injuries (many folks seem to assume it's higher).
So the there is some other stuff to worry about 56% of the time, beside your noggin.

-g

[abalone]

I spent the better part of last Summer riding with a former (Italian) pro. Thousands of miles. And he never wore a helmet. He would (and still does) make a very impassioned and compelling argument against wearing them. A very-intelligent, well spoken dude.

It never swayed me, I make my choices and he makes his. At the very least it was an interesting topic to help keep me distracted from all of the suffering he handed me.


Making an argument NOT to wear a helmet?!?! What?! I get how people argue that they should have the freedom to choose to wear a helmet or not, but this is totally opposite. You are saying that a rider should NOT wear a helmet. Why? What argument is there for not wearing a helmet?

[Louis]

You are saying that a rider should NOT wear a helmet. Why? What argument is there for not wearing a helmet?

Someone is making that argument just a few posts above yours.

[JAllen]

Making an argument NOT to wear a helmet?!?! What?! I get how people argue that they should have the freedom to choose to wear a helmet or not, but this is totally opposite. You are saying that a rider should NOT wear a helmet. Why? What argument is there for not wearing a helmet?
I think it's more if a defence when people are inquiring (aggressively at times) as to why not. I think the B and pastashop gave good reasons as to why helmets are not a complete answer to safe cycling. I'm not saying wearing a helmet is a negative, and people NEED to be given a choice, but it's not the cure-all. It can provide false sense of safety when that responsibility falls on the rider and how they conduct themselves. The culture off fear is quite real. I believe I commented on this same thing in the thread regarding Tom R.

[Hepmike]

Making an argument NOT to wear a helmet?!?! What?! I get how people argue that they should have the freedom to choose to wear a helmet or not, but this is totally opposite. You are saying that a rider should NOT wear a helmet. Why? What argument is there for not wearing a helmet?

The argument in part- about why NOT to wear a helmet- was along the lines mentioned above, regarding neck torque, the science and studies behind that. Also- as mentioned in some posts now- that it can give some people a 'false' sense of security, that it could lead some to ride more recklessly with them then without.
Also interesting and worth noting- as I indicated he is Italian, and I believe there was a cultural element. No offense intended to anyone- but there is an opposite pressure to keep up appearances and maintain the status quo that is still prevalent in many European countries... (i.e. wearing a helmet makes you look like a 'sissy')

[Louis]

Also- as mentioned in some posts now- that it can give some people a 'false' sense of security, that it could lead some to ride more recklessly with them then without.

If that's the case, then maybe we should all put bare safety razor blades in our jersey pockets and install 6" daggers on our stems (pointing up, of course).

[JAllen]

If that's the case, then maybe we should all put bare safety razor blades in our jersey pockets and install 6" daggers on our stems (pointing up, of course).
???

Not sure what that means, but if it's in reference to people putting an unbalanced amount of stock in helmets saving their lives in place of responsible riding (as opposed to in conjunction), then I would equate it to people buying large vehicles like SUVs and pick ups thinking that it will make them safer than others on the road. It can even make them more of a hazard to themselves as well as others. Notions of invincibility are so so dangerous.

[Dead Man]

I think there's people who wear helmet because they've always worn helmets. Probably mostly 35 and under. There's no "peace of mind;" it's just what they do, have always done since their mama strapped on their first helmet to get on board their first ever 2-wheeler (with training wheels), and they've probably never once ridden without.

Is this the "culture of fear?" or is this the "safety-first generation?"

What's the "culture of fear," specifically? Is it the guys who constantly post bike fatality articles from 2000 miles away, and cry for more laws? Guys that harp on the iGeneration and how the roads are no longer safe to ride on because 20-somethings have cell phones?

Is it really a "culture," or just a way too noisy, over represented minority?

[Louis]

Notions of invincibility are so so dangerous.

Agreed, and constantly being reminded by that dagger pointing up at you from the stem will surely cool off the most invincible-feeling rider out there. It's also a good idea for drivers - replacing the airbag with a dagger should have a nice calming effect out on the roads, which should benefit us all.

[Duende]

False sense of safety. Throw in some earbuds, and there you have it.

Maybe this makes no rational sense to some folks here. I'm not one to argue online. But for me, although I wear a helmet these days... If I had to choose. I'd choose gloves over a helmet anyway of the week in terms of safety. Course I grew up in the benotto tape era. But still, having proper blood flow and sensitivy in my hands to avoid a crash is much more critical in my opinion.

[JAllen]

Agreed, and constantly being reminded by that dagger pointing up at you from the stem will surely cool off the most invincible rider out there. It's also a good idea for drivers - replace the airbag with a dagger should have a nice calming effect out on the roads, which should benefit us all.
Ok I understand that you are getting at "why have any safety features at all" or "having safety features of any sort dulls the senses" I just recently started wearing a helmet myself. Mostly due to the wife getting on my case about it. What I'm saying is, though I think helmets being worn isn't a bad idea at all, it shouldn't replace common sense and bike handling skills. Please wear your helmet! But it's perfectly fine if someone chooses not to.

[Louis]

i think helmets being worn isn't a bad idea at all, it shouldn't replace common sense and bike handling skills.

+ 1 :)

[marciero]

This may seem like a stretch, but...

One could make an argument that not wearing a helmet could be good for public safety. First, one could argue that cycling is safer when more people are doing it-(greater awareness, more acceptability of cyclists on roads, fewer cars on the road since people are riding...need I continue?), and that, conversely, it is more dangerous with fewer cyclists on the road, (which is not the same thing, btw)
The argument would go like this: hysteria->fear->fewer cyclists->more dangerous for cyclists->hysteria->fear->fewer cyclists, etc.

It's at least plausible that if more cyclists did not wear helmets, the hysteria would diminish->less fear-> more cyclists->safer for cyclists->less fear, etc.

If in fact helmets do prevent more serious injury, which is probably true at least in some cases, then this is a classic example of a "prisoners dilemma", a class of problems in game theory, in that it, regardless of what others do, it would be better for any individual to wear a helmet. But if everyone wears one, it is worse for all than if they all had not worn one.

[oldpotatoe]

Upon reading some posts in regards to helmets on another thread, it really got me thinking that many of the folks here share similar views to my own on the matter. That was quite refreshing to see.

I'm getting close to fifty now. Raced until my twenties, but then other interests and activities took over my time.

I mention this, because I never wore a helmet until just this last year. The one I was required to use for races was a padded leather Cinelli hair net. I'm sure you all remember those.

I suscumbed to the pressure to wear a helmet because I pretty much got sick of folks lecturing me on rides, offering unasked for "wisdoms", or worse yelling condescending remarks at me on the road. Like if I was an "experienced rider" I'd know better!

So I wear a helmet now on rides, but not when I commute. It also gets the girlfriend off my back as she has definitely bought in to this safety hysteria.

This is actually contrary to all logic, because I face way more hazardous traffic in my commutes then when I'm 20-50 miles out of town. Plus, the worst cycling accident I've had in recent years happened on a commute. Go figure.

Anyways, where safety is concerned, I'm much more obsessive about the condition of my bike. Always checking my tires, front hub, handlebars/stem Checking spoke tension etc......
Can't help but think that this culture of fear is further fueled by a need to sell helmets and other related products.

What a world we live in.

Always good to think about some reality with regards to the styrofoam Yarmulke on your head.

NOT a panacea for serious head injuries or even death. 'May' help but would probably never hurt.

[oldpotatoe]

In all the endless variations of this thread on helmets, I’ve not once read a post by someone who crashed, hit their head and said not wearing his helmet saved him.

I've posted this before.

Well....I got hit from behind while riding(2002, July 6th, 1030 AM). I was knocked out but by being lifted in the air, rotated and my face hit her windshield-12 stiches around my eye. The Neuro-Doc said is I had been wearing a helmet(I wasn't), hitting the front edge of the helmet on windshield and the resulting trama to my upper neck, may have broken it. I cracked C-5 anyway(along with fracture of L1, L3)so....

YMMV-yes, these days I wear a helmet, a Giro Synthe, very high zoot. fits well, cool, would rather ride by myself w/o it but the wife ya know.

I am not anti-helmet wearing, yell at people, tell them they are stupid, etc, for not wearing one. What they do with headgear has NO impact on me. Just realistic about helmets, fear, chance of injury while riding, etc.

I don't wear gloves when it's warm either.

[oldpotatoe]

Making an argument NOT to wear a helmet?!?! What?! I get how people argue that they should have the freedom to choose to wear a helmet or not, but this is totally opposite. You are saying that a rider should NOT wear a helmet. Why? What argument is there for not wearing a helmet?

Sounds like his argument is about personal choice, not protective headgear and what it does or doesn't, do.

[DHallerman]

You're already dressing up in a clown suit to ride a bike. I figure a bit of foam on the head won't exactly move me from Steve McQueen cool to Steve Urkel dork.

Now you've gone too far.

Whether we're wearing corporate-advertising-emblazoned or plain-Jane-retro bike clothing, we look very cool.

I mean, everyone else I'm cycling with is also wearing similar clothing, so what I'm wearing must be cool.

Dave, who besides any jests thinks that even though black can look cool in other clothing that entirely black jerseys or jackets are quite dysfunctional for cycling

[dumbod]

[QUOTE=JeffS;1703733]How much extra did you have to pay for the precognition feature?

----------

Everyone I know is mitigating risks randomly; worrying about things that will never happen and ignoring the impending.

Precognition? OK...do you tie your shoes, brush your teeth...wear underpants?

Same logic, smart guy.

OK, I've got to ask. What risks are involved with the failure to wear underpants?

[JAllen]

This may seem like a stretch, but...

One could make an argument that not wearing a helmet could be good for public safety. First, one could argue that cycling is safer when more people are doing it-(greater awareness, more acceptability of cyclists on roads, fewer cars on the road since people are riding...need I continue?), and that, conversely, it is more dangerous with fewer cyclists on the road, (which is not the same thing, btw)
The argument would go like this: hysteria->fear->fewer cyclists->more dangerous for cyclists->hysteria->fear->fewer cyclists, etc.

It's at least plausible that if more cyclists did not wear helmets, the hysteria would diminish->less fear-> more cyclists->safer for cyclists->less fear, etc.

If in fact helmets do prevent more serious injury, which is probably true at least in some cases, then this is a classic example of a "prisoners dilemma", a class of problems in game theory, in that it, regardless of what others do, it would be better for any individual to wear a helmet. But if everyone wears one, it is worse for all than if they all had not worn one.
I think you bring up a very interesting perspective. Just a little push back to this that I would say is what about the Netherlands and Denmark vs Australia and I think New Zealand. Now granted we are comparing several different cultures but the ridership is so much greater in those European countries than Australia and NZ. A vast majority in those European don't wear helmets as opposed to it being mandated in the latter. There are studies to show that the Aussie ridership plummeted when that went into effect, leading to that country to have in some ways a greater disdain for cycling by the populace than you have in the USA. That partially follows the logic that you presented. When the ridership rose or fell in either part of the world, so did the attitude towards cycling. I think that a big appeal to cycling is that it's SO accessible. All you need is a bike! When you start to mandate helmet laws or, God forbid, a permit/license in order to ride, you make it that much more difficult for some and unappealing to most.

[JAllen]

[QUOTE=Hepmike;1703740]

OK, I've got to ask. What risks are involved with the failure to wear underpants?
Missing out on freedom... "Now I'm free... free ballin'..." The rare B-side from Tom Petty and the Heart Breakers. :)

[JAllen]

I've posted this before.

Well....I got hit from behind while riding(2002, July 6th, 1030 AM). I was knocked out but by being lifted in the air, rotated and my face hit her windshield-12 stiches around my eye. The Neuro-Doc said is I had been wearing a helmet(I wasn't), hitting the front edge of the helmet on windshield and the resulting trama to my upper neck, may have broken it. I cracked C-5 anyway(along with fracture of L1, L3)so....

YMMV-yes, these days I wear a helmet, a Giro Synthe, very high zoot. fits well, cool, would rather ride by myself w/o it but the wife ya know.

I am not anti-helmet wearing, yell at people, tell them they are stupid, etc, for not wearing one. What they do with headgear has NO impact on me. Just realistic about helmets, fear, chance of injury while riding, etc.

I don't wear gloves when it's warm either.
Yikes! What luck. It reminds me of when people freakishly die from WEARING a seatbelt.

[witcombusa]

Now you've gone too far.

Whether we're wearing corporate-advertising-emblazoned or plain-Jane-retro bike clothing, we look very cool.

I mean, everyone else I'm cycling with is also wearing similar clothing, so what I'm wearing must be cool.

Dave, who besides any jests thinks that even though black can look cool in other clothing that entirely black jerseys or jackets are quite dysfunctional for cycling

There is nothing "cool" about cycling clothing. It may or may not be functional for it's purpose, but is most certainly not cool. And beyond that, most of the non riding public thinks we look like total morons and they may not be that far off base...

btw, I also like black wool kit :banana:

[oldpotatoe]

Yikes! What luck. It reminds me of when people freakishly die from WEARING a seatbelt.

But I don't get emotional about it. Like I said, what 'that' guy does impacts me zero. Same with seatbelts, a nanny law, designed to protect you from yourself, not others.

If tomorrow I was single/alone, I would not wear one when riding alone.

[Grant McLean]

Years ago, early in the seat-belt debate, some folks argued that they were dangerous because it was safer to be thrown clear of the car, so you never know.

More dangerous for whom? It is a good question to ponder.

Why has car safety technology not included protections for the people
that drivers plow into? It's a telling worldview that it's the vehicle occupants
that are the beneficeries of air bags, seat belts, etc. what happens to
driver behaviour when they are protected from the consequences of their
effects on others? I think we know all too well.

It's telling that vehicle safety technology deals more with the consequences
of collisions than preventing them. This is the shortcoming of helmets too.
Cycling fatality studies highlight how deaths are largely preventable,
because the causes of the collisions are largely preventable. But for the most
part, people just go with the bullet proof Kevlar solution instead of wondering
why so many bullets are flying around.

-g

[choke]

Also- as mentioned in some posts now- that it can give some people a 'false' sense of security, that it could lead some to ride more recklessly with them then without. That's known as 'risk compensation'. But before we break out the champagne substitute to honor the three-point seat belt's demi-centennial, we might also consider the possibility that some drivers have caused accidents precisely because they were wearing seat belts.

This counterintuitive idea was introduced in academic circles several years ago and is broadly accepted today. The concept is that humans have an inborn tolerance for risk—meaning that as safety features are added to vehicles and roads, drivers feel less vulnerable and tend to take more chances. The feeling of greater security tempts us to be more reckless. Behavioral scientists call it "risk compensation."http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/buckle-up-your-seatbelt-and-behave-117182619/?all

[Seramount]

There is nothing "cool" about cycling clothing. It may or may not be functional for it's purpose, but is most certainly not cool. And beyond that, most of the non riding public thinks we look like total morons and they may not be that far off base...

yeah, like the majority of the general public has any room to criticize what cyclists look like.

not really concerned what some dumpy dufus wearing a ballcap on backwards, pink crocs, and sucking on a cigarette thinks of me in kit.

and while there are some riders that do look like morons, it's not the fault of the clothing.

[weisan]

Velotel pal has the final word on this topic....as soon as he comes out of hibernation.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A6Bu96ALOw

[weisan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A6Bu96ALOw

Hilarious!!!
If only I can get me kids to say "go ride your bike, dad" when they were 2...

[velomonkey]

Here's the deal - Cycling is WAY more dangerous than not cycling so I've already taken the bulk of the risk.

The helmet - yea, to say I am wearing that out of fear is just plain stoooooopid.

[JAllen]

If tomorrow I was single/alone, I would not wear one when riding alone.

I couldn't agree more. Yeah I definitely don't get emotional about the helmet thing either. If I get uppity about it, it's because someone reacts strangely aggressive about folks not wearing one.

[JAllen]

Here's the deal - Cycling is WAY more dangerous than not cycling so I've already taken the bulk of the risk.

The helmet - yea, to say I am wearing that out of fear is just plain stoooooopid.
When I've mention the fear based reasoning it doesn't pertain to everyone who chooses to wear a helmet. I mentioned that I wear one because my wife feels better about it. To me they are uncomfortable, but I love my wife and the idea of her being worried is WAY more uncomfortable.

[Duende]

Sounds like his argument is about personal choice, not protective headgear and what it does or doesn't, do.

Thanks Old Potatoe. Probably should of had this on my first post.

[velomonkey]

When I've mention the fear based reasoning it doesn't pertain to everyone who chooses to wear a helmet. I mentioned that I wear one because my wife feels better about it. To me they are uncomfortable, but I love my wife and the idea of her being worried is WAY more uncomfortable.

Ah, yes, the wife - the ASSuage rationale (double entendre sorta pun totally intended).

If I had my way, I'd ride my bike and then sit around the house in my PJs and watch bad 80s movies. I shower, shave, get dressed and do housework because of my wife. I never shower and get dressed out of fear - I'm playing a long game here.

[christian]

Why have people become afraid of cycling?
Is it more dangerous than other activities? No, gardening is more dangerous
(look it up) Cycling is safer than ever (look it up). Yet the culture of fear
is growing. The safety gear debate is just one brick in the wall of fear.This is the crux of it for me. I wear a helmet 99% of the time - but frankly, a lot of it is the culture that if you're a serious rider you wear a helmet. I've been riding bikes seriously for 20 years. I've had two accidents - one right-hook into a parking lot, and one striking a fixed object . In neither did I hit my head. That works out to no head strikes in 50,000 miles or more.

In the same 20 years, I've tripped on escalators probably 5 times. No one advocates wearing a helmet when riding the escalator, but anecdotally, it seems at least as dangerous.

The point is, people rail about bicycle helmets as if they're a panacea, but engage in equally dangerous activities (showering, driving a car, climbing ladders) all the time without donning protective head gear.

That's at minimum the product of a cognitive dissonance, or perpetuated by a culture of fear.

[Tony T]

Same go for motorcycles.
If you're in a collision at 50mph, a helmet is not going to help.
At least in most states there are no cycling helmet laws for adults.
I don't see why anyone complains about a cycling helmet when in most states it's not required. IMO, it's more of a "culture of fear" when it comes to wearing a seatbelt (and you can be fined in most stated for not wearing a seatbelt)

[Vientomas]

This is the crux of it for me. I wear a helmet 99% of the time - but frankly, a lot of it is the culture that if you're a serious rider you wear a helmet. I've been riding bikes seriously for 20 years. I've had two accidents - one right-hook into a parking lot, and one striking a fixed object . In neither did I hit my head. That works out to no head strikes in 50,000 miles or more.

In the same 20 years, I've tripped on escalators probably 5 times. No one advocates wearing a helmet when riding the escalator, but anecdotally, it seems at least as dangerous.

The point is, people rail about bicycle helmets as if they're a panacea, but engage in equally dangerous activities (showering, driving a car, climbing ladders) all the time without donning protective head gear.

That's at minimum the product of a cognitive dissonance, or perpetuated by a culture of fear.

Same goes for rock climbing, skateboarding, skiing, parachuting, base jumping, motorcycle riding, construction zones, etc...?

[velomonkey]

The point is, people rail about bicycle helmets as if they're a panacea, but engage in equally dangerous activities (showering, driving a car, climbing ladders) all the time without donning protective head gear.


When they do come into use and do as they are intended, they, factually, are a panacea. This thought process can go on ad nauseam.

There are so many variables that determine if you're gonna crash and if a helmet is gonna be of use. Almost all the variables are outside the control of the rider. Very few are in their control (namely lousy riding abilities and equipment properly installed).

Yes, you can find a few isolated incidents where a helmet 'may' have worsened a crash. Conversely, there are is no shortage of people with severe disabilities, headaches, and other head related trauma. The facts simply don't work on the former - at all.

[christian]

Yes, you can find a few isolated incidents where a helmet 'may' have worsened a crash. Conversely, there are is no shortage of people with severe disabilities, headaches, and other head related trauma. The facts simply don't work on the former - at all.

I'm not suggesting helmets worsen a crash. As I said, I wear a helmet 99% of the time -- because there is limited downsides to doing so. And 100% of the time when I ride my motorcycle. And I insist my kids wear helmets too, just to get into the habit.

But if my son and I go out for a bike ride on the MUP around here, and we accidentally forget his helmet at home, I'm not telling him we have to go home and he can't ride his bicycle. Because, objectively, riding bicycles with or without a helmet is pretty darn safe. That's what makes the ardent fanaticism of helmet supporters so weird.

Let me put it this way - for anyone who thinks not wearing a bicycle helmet is irresponsible, do you think the same about climbing ladders without a helmet? Have you ever yelled, "Where's your helmet?" to a person on a ladder? Why not? That's way more dangerous than cycling.

I think the other downside with the idea of a helmet panacea is that it makes vulnerable road users seem responsible for their own safety. How many times have you read an article where a cyclist is hit by a car and the journalist mentions whether the cyclist was wearing a helmet. Ostensibly, this is about as newsworthy as whether the cyclist was wearing neon Rapha socks. Making cycling safer is about improving the conditions for vulnerable road users, improving driver training, and enhancing street design. The overemphasis on helmets as part of the safety debate undermines this fact.

(And no, this doesn't mean _personally_ you shouldn't wear a helmet.)

[kevinvc]

I usually wear a helmet. Sometimes I don't. I prefer the feeling of not wearing one, but I don't trust other road users enough to always go without. The Bicycle Transportation Coordinator for the City of Portland makes a point of not wearing a helmet or any cycling specific clothing. I know people who have had minor crashes at slow speeds but hit their heads pretty hard and were not seriously injured, which indicates that the helmet probably helped them. I don't fault folks for whatever helmet choice they make.

However, I hate the way most media attempt to create a culture of fear around cycling. It seems that any time a car / bike collision occurs they feel obligated to point out whether the cyclist had a helmet and what they were wearing. This is the case even when the motorist is clearly at fault. It ticks me off seeing a news report of a cyclist being hit from behind while riding in a bike lane in broad daylight by someone using their cell phone and the reporter makes a point of saying whether they were wearing a helmet or reflective clothes.

IMO, this is the culture that needs to be challenged. Studies have shown that one of, if not the most, significant factor for increasing cyclist safety is having more cyclists on the road. It normalizes the behavior and motorists become more accustomed to them being out there and having to look for them. Studies have indicated that mandatory helmet laws decrease levels of ridership because of an increased perception of cycling as a dangerous activity. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophesy! My preference is to see more people of all ages riding bikes, with or without helmets.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get ready to go run some errands. I'll be on my bike wearing a helmet, neon jacket and using head and tail lights in the middle of the day. If I see you riding in casual clothes and a bare head, I'll be happy to see you on the road and promise not to judge.

[Cornfed]

Listen, I'm typically independent to the point of being borderline rebellious, but anyone that thinks neglecting personal safety only effects the individual is either blind oblivious or stunningly selfish.

This is especially true when it come to the risk of head trauma, where extended hospitalizations, brain damage, paralysis, and other long-term or permanent injuries can significantly diminish quality of life for not just the injured, but also for everyone that cares about, and cares for, the injured.

If you have anyone or anything that loves you -- and you love them back a little -- then wearing a helmet seems like an insignificant inconvenience to spare them potential heartbreak and hardship.

[Dead Man]

Listen, I'm typically independent to the point of being borderline rebellious, but anyone that thinks neglecting personal safety only effects the individual is either blind oblivious or stunningly selfish.

This is especially true when it come to the risk of head trauma, where extended hospitalizations, brain damage, paralysis, and other long-term or permanent injuries can significantly diminish quality of life for not just the injured, but also for everyone that cares about, and cares for, the injured.

If you have anyone or anything that loves you -- and you love them back a little -- then wearing a helmet seems like an insignificant inconvenience to spare them potential heartbreak and hardship.

This argument makes the assumption that wearing a helmet substantially increases safety, which is an argument helmet abstainers generally disagree with. You're just preaching to your own side, with this.

It also makes the assumption that there's an inherent substantial risk to riding a bike, which helmet abstainers also often disagree with - and, in fact, is more to the point of this thread.

[oldpotatoe]

This argument makes the assumption that wearing a helmet substantially increases safety, which is an argument helmet abstainers generally disagree with. You're just preaching to your own side, with this.

It also makes the assumption that there's an inherent substantial risk to riding a bike, which helmet abstainers also often disagree with - and, in fact, is more to the point of this thread.

Well said. Reality, what a concept.

[Cornfed]

This argument makes the assumption that wearing a helmet substantially increases safety, which is an argument helmet abstainers generally disagree with. You're just preaching to your own side, with this.

It also makes the assumption that there's an inherent substantial risk to riding a bike, which helmet abstainers also often disagree with - and, in fact, is more to the point of this thread.

I left a lot of wiggle room on the safety issue: "risk", "potential", etc. My point has more to do with how your actions effect others, and could apply equally to seat belts, motorcycle helmets, and other issues that have been publicly debated as a matter of personal choice, not necessarily safety.

[velomonkey]

I think the other downside with the idea of a helmet panacea is that it makes vulnerable road users seem responsible for their own safety. How many times have you read an article where a cyclist is hit by a car and the journalist mentions whether the cyclist was wearing a helmet. Ostensibly, this is about as newsworthy as whether the cyclist was wearing neon Rapha socks. Making cycling safer is about improving the conditions for vulnerable road users, improving driver training, and enhancing street design. The overemphasis on helmets as part of the safety debate undermines this fact.


Fundamentally I think we agree, however, what you said above is a separate issue. When Chris Boardman says "wearing a helmet isn't the top ten things a bike needs for safety" - I am in 100% agreement. Which also goes back to my original issue - the variable where the helmet comes into play is typically a variable I can't control. This is why the ladder analogy doesn't work. I can ensure the variables need for the ladder to be safe are present. Now if I see someone on a ladder balanced on bottom on big rocks, no one spotting it, in high wind, pulling up heavy objects, balanced on top a thin leaning tree - yea I'd yell "bro, what you doing!!!!" The painter on the secure flooring against a totally flat house with support for his tools. I don't say anything.

Fully agree that when the news says "a bike rider was hit and killed by a drunk driver going 70mph in a 30mph zone - the bike rider was not wearing a helmet" - the anchor needs a punch in the face. The helmet or lack there of isn't the issue, it's the driver.

[christian]

but anyone that thinks neglecting personal safety only effects the individual is either blind oblivious or stunningly selfish.
...
wearing a helmet seems like an insignificant inconvenience to spare them potential heartbreak and hardship.

It also makes the assumption that there's an inherent substantial risk to riding a bike, which helmet abstainers also often disagree with - and, in fact, is more to the point of this thread.

Cornfed - The B hits it on the head. If you take the maxim of your statement to be universal law, "never do anything which might cause your family potential heartbreak and hardship," what would you do.

You certainly wouldn't ride a bike at all. You wouldn't drive a car or take a train to work. Certainly not over a bridge. You'd never alpine ski. You'd never shake hands, let alone kiss. You'd wash only in a wash basin because you can drown in the bath and slip and fall and get a TBI in the shower. You'd never drink from plastic bottles. You'd eat only personally grown vegetables and personally-slaughtered game. You'd drink only water from a known source.

Point is, life is a series of calculated risks. Have you ever climbed a ladder without a helmet? A family member of mine suffered a life-altering TBI from falling off a ladder. Does that mean that he and everyone who climbs a ladder without a helmet is "either blind [sic] oblivious or stunningly selfish."

[christian]

The painter on the secure flooring against a totally flat house with support for his tools.A close family member of mine suffered a significant TBI falling from a ladder. The ladder was leaned against a flat roof line, and placed on a flat brick walkway. The idea that all parameters are in your control is a false one. I think the analogy works. Every action has an accompanying risk. Maybe you don't need a helmet for all of them.

[Dead Man]

The helmet or lack there of isn't the issue, it's the driver.

Indeed - but our society thinks a helmet would have saved his life. They are very wrong, but public miss-perception isn't an uncommon thing.

[professerr]

Have a read through British sociologist (and cyclist) Dave Horton's work.

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/09/fear-of-cycling-01-essay-in-five-parts.html

It's pretty clear there is a culture of fear being constructed around cycling,
because the majority of the population is now afraid to do it. In several
large studies, about 60% of the population has said they would like to
ride more, but are afraid to. Why have people become afraid of cycling?
Is it more dangerous than other activities? No, gardening is more dangerous
(look it up) Cycling is safer than ever (look it up). Yet the culture of fear
is growing. The safety gear debate is just one brick in the wall of fear.

-g



I’ve heard that gardening vs cycling comparison before, so I looked it up. People can read a summary I found (copied below, with a link to an abstract of one study) and think for themselves about the issue and the credibility of the conclusions these studies are used to reach. I would ask how they controlled for things like age, duration, injury type, etc.

Links: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1026.html#109
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9710864?log$=activity


"Researchers polled 5,238 subjects by telephone, simply asking if they'd· done any of a predetermined set of activities in the past 30 days.· Those who answered· "yes" for a given activity were asked further questions about it,· including whether they were injured "severely enough that you went for· medical care or missed one-half day or more of work, housework, or school." Percentage injured results were: (Powell, 1998)
Aerobics
1.4%
Gardening
1.6%
Walking for exercise
1.4%
Weightlifting
2.4%
Cycling
0.9%

"The relative risk between gardening and cycling has been examined in another study. 1,337 people were surveyed for a report on sport and recreation injuries. One in six respondents had required medical treatment in this period, with 5% of gardeners having suffered injury warranting attention compared with 3.9% of cyclists. (CenQueensUniv, 2003)

[christian]

BTW, I'm not trying to suggest there might not be solid science suggesting you should wear a helmet. For instance, AANS says the following are the incidences of head injuries per recreational activity treated in ERs in 2009:

The following 20 sports/recreational activities represent the categories contributing to the highest number of estimated head injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2009.

Cycling: 85,389
Football: 46,948
Baseball and Softball: 38,394
Basketball: 34,692
Water Sports (Diving, Scuba Diving, Surfing, Swimming, Water Polo, Water Skiing, Water Tubing): 28,716
Powered Recreational Vehicles (ATVs, Dune Buggies, Go-Carts, Mini bikes, Off-road): 26,606
Soccer: 24,184
Skateboards/Scooters: 23,114
Fitness/Exercise/Health Club: 18,012
Winter Sports (Skiing, Sledding, Snowboarding, Snowmobiling): 16,948
Horseback Riding: 14,466
Gymnastics/Dance/Cheerleading: 10,223
Golf: 10,035
Hockey: 8,145
Other Ball Sports and Balls, Unspecified: 6,883
Trampolines: 5,919
Rugby/Lacrosse: 5,794
Roller and Inline Skating: 3,320
Ice Skating: 4,608

Now, it's basically impossible to draw any meaningful comparisons from this data until you know approximate number of participants and hours of participation per participant (nor how many of those cyclists were recreating rather than commuting), but two things do stick out:

Unsurprisingly, you fall a lot on ice (12,000 instances) despite ice only being present in 1/3rd of the country for less than half the year. This is presumably because ice is slippery. Wearing a helmet there seems to make sense. FWIW, I did wear a helmet when I took my studded mtb on a pond a few weeks ago.

Trampoline helmets ought to be federally mandated. And horsey-back riding helmets too.

[professerr]

I've posted this before.

Well....I got hit from behind while riding(2002, July 6th, 1030 AM). I was knocked out but by being lifted in the air, rotated and my face hit her windshield-12 stiches around my eye. The Neuro-Doc said is I had been wearing a helmet(I wasn't), hitting the front edge of the helmet on windshield and the resulting trama to my upper neck, may have broken it. I cracked C-5 anyway(along with fracture of L1, L3)so....


There's always one in the crowd...:)

[rugbysecondrow]

Isn't much of this about modeling behavior?

People, frankly, don't give a crap about you, a 45 year old man, wearing a helmet, smoking cigarettes, wearing a seatbelt etc, they care about the message being sent their child or children in general.

My Dad only started wearing as seatbelt because we kids were in the car, otherwise he didn't do it. Now I do it automatically. I wear a helmet and discuss bike safety because I want my kids to take a specific action. They will do it automatically, like putting on shoes.

Rider safety for young riders means wearing a helmet. Period. Too many variable, lack of decision making, lack of skills etc.

As for the risk cycling, it is the catastrophic nature of the accidents. I will admit to number not bearing out perceived risk, but I also think that doesn't matter. When somebody says they are no longer riding because of the risks, it has little to do with the actually risk but the reward one gets from it. They just don't care about riding that much. I am in that boat. I enjoy riding my bike, but on the Risk/reward spectrum, my view of the activity is much different than many of you all. Cycling is just AN activity, it is not THE activity.

[velomonkey]

A close family member of mine suffered a significant TBI falling from a ladder. The ladder was leaned against a flat roof line, and placed on a flat brick walkway. The idea that all parameters are in your control is a false one. I think the analogy works. Every action has an accompanying risk. Maybe you don't need a helmet for all of them.

I didn't say ALL variables, I said there are more. I also never said risk was totally removed. The analogy fails. I've said all I'm gonna say - it's clear you got your mind made up.

[malcolm]

I always wear a helmet. It doesn't bother me if you don't.

I've done it for so long I'm not really aware of it and in the hot southeast I don't feel like it contributes to my hottness for lack of a better word.

I don't see a helmet as a panacea, I think it's most useful for the low speed just falling over sort of accident. For me it's not really noticeable so whatever risk it mitigates is worth it.

This past year I went down on the mtn bike, clipped a tree with the bars on a 25-30 mph single track down grade and it pulled the front wheel off line into the sharp edge of the trail sending me I think over the bars landing on my back. Tore the pockets off my camel back destroyed a lifeproof case in one of the pockets but saved the phone. My helmet cracked in several directions, my ribs and hip hurt for a while but I never even had a headache. Who knows what would have happened without, maybe something maybe nothing.

[fuzzalow]

No one has their mind changed as a result of this, or these types of, discussion. If the pastime is to enjoy the different points of view, that is what the topic of helmet safety is great at doing.

There are tens of variables chasing hundreds of variables in the situations that create an anecdote about helmet use, or not. There is simply no way to know, other than the surety of adding or subtracting a helmet from the scenario, how the outcome can change other than shifting the numeric odds around a bit. Mind you that this is looking at the totality of the chain of events that lead up to and include an incident/accident. Looking at the "helmet saved my head when I fell" is an oversimplification isolated on an impact event that became testimony for the effectiveness of a helmet. Too simple, much too simple. The real world is closer to the butterfly effect than a Snell helmet impact certification.

I do believe there is a culture of fear developed in modern society. I think it to be part and parcel with the self-preoccupations and inward focus of modern society that makes external events and the seemingly random element of those externalities all the more threatening. People are naive to what's out there - it's hard to reconcile a probabilistic chain of events when a lifetime has been spent on achieving self gratification. Let nothing spoil my own buzz. That's how texting while driving an automobile becomes accepted and commonplace.

When a person has no way of understanding and determining where and from what their next threat is coming from, it is no wonder the bicyclist riding environment is a foreboding, overwhelming, impending peril. The helmet becomes the device to assuage those fears. But survival and/or playing the odds is never in the device, it is in the knowing.

[professerr]

These threads have certainly caused me to think more about helmets -- no where other than on bike forums had I ever heard anyone ever question the increased safety, on an individual basis, of choosing to wear a helmet. Given the amount I ride, it is an important issue to me. I'm unconvinced after spending a fair amount of time considering things, although I do now see how a law requiring the use of helmets could cause injuries and life-expectancy in the aggregate to go up and down, respectively.

So I’ve got to ask, how many of you helmet-free riders allow your kids to not wear helmets while riding, say, to school or a friend’s house? Would you even if your spouse was OK with it?

I’m not asking so as to judge how people raise their children, but rather to gauge how confident they are in their belief. I can fool myself about believing all sorts of stuff that affects mainly me, but the rubber hits the road when it comes to kids.

[velomonkey]

These threads have certainly caused me to think more about helmets -- no where other than on bike forums had I ever heard anyone ever question the increased safety, on an individual basis, of choosing to wear a helmet. Given the amount I ride, it is an important issue to me.

I can only speak for myself. I grew up in the age of lousy helmets. They stuck. They were way heavy, they were not comfortable and they hindered the experience of 'riding' ( being:users of this site AKA people who get way too into our stuff).

The specialized sub six helmet changed that. Giro was right on their heals: and for me, back then, I would wear a hammerhead giro while MTB and nothing on the road. In 2000 I had a kid. On a group ride with friends someone, a female, pulled up to me ands chewed me out for having a family and no helmet. She specifically said "you have other people to worry about other than yourself." I will never, ever, forget it.

She had a brain aneurysm about 2 years later.

Since that day I wear a helmet and all my friends and riding buddies do, too. To not wear one would be out of the ordinary. In the last 6 years I can only think of one guy showing up without a helmet - and he is a jerk outside of the norm of jerks.

I can cite 3 times helmets have saved me from something far, far worse. Just this summer - a pace line of people I know and trust - we all know how one another and we all now how each other rides - a crash - some went down with road rash, one woman, with a helmet, broken hip, broken collar bone and knocked out cold. Asleep. She had headaches for 5 months. Her husband was asked if he had her living will. She spent 5 days in ICU. She still hasn't ridden a bike and she is as tough as nails.

Given the weight and comfort of helmets nowadays I simply just don't get the debate. You want to NOT wear one and go on a ride with me - be my guest.

To say wearing one is out of "fear" (like this is analogous to some Fox News talking point of leaving a sleeping toddler for 20 seconds in your garage is simply NOT inline) is just failing to understand - or trolling. Helmets have gotten better, lighter and have saved lives. FACT.

[Louis]

These threads have certainly caused me to think more about helmets -- no where other than on bike forums had I ever heard anyone ever question the increased safety, on an individual basis, of choosing to wear a helmet.

Not being a "non-wearer" I can't say for sure, but I'm fairly certain that the "I don't wear a helmet because doing so causes one to act in a riskier manner, and actually make it more dangerous" crowd are using this as post hoc justification.

I doubt very much that that was the original reason for them to dislike wearing a helmet. They don't wear a helmet because they don't like wearing one, not due to some kooky reverse-logic attempt to increase safety. (That as far as I can tell has no basis in reality or statistics, otherwise people would be disabling airbags in their cars all over the place, and insurance companies would be encouraging more of us to do that. )

[chengher87]

These threads have certainly caused me to think more about helmets -- no where other than on bike forums had I ever heard anyone ever question the increased safety, on an individual basis, of choosing to wear a helmet. Given the amount I ride, it is an important issue to me. I'm unconvinced after spending a fair amount of time considering things, although I do now see how a law requiring the use of helmets could cause injuries and life-expectancy in the aggregate to go up and down, respectively.

So I’ve got to ask, how many of you helmet-free riders allow your kids to not wear helmets while riding, say, to school or a friend’s house? Would you even if your spouse was OK with it?

I’m not asking so as to judge how people raise their children, but rather to gauge how confident they are in their belief. I can fool myself about believing all sorts of stuff that affects mainly me, but the rubber hits the road when it comes to kids.

+1. I have many friends who ride without helmets or wear helmets, but abide by the helmets aren't really safe philosophy and yet they won't let their child ride unless they are wearing a helmet and sometimes elbow/knee pads.

I highly doubt that it's really fear, how many people actually buy helmets for safety reasons? How many of you have bought a helmet for weight, aerodynamics, aesthetics? If you really wanted protection, the thick $20 entry level helmets have similar impact ratings. But I don't really see any cyclists ever wearing those helmets. Safety doesn't even seem to be a concern of helmet manufacturers either. The first thing they advertise is usually the watts saved due to the aerodynamic properties of the helmets, not the safety (or it seems to me anyway). Look at when Catlike was all the rage a few years back. People knew that it failed the American testing standards and yet Catlike was still extremely popular over in the west. I remember trying one on and thinking that it wasn't going to protect anything, but it ventilated well.

To me, I don't particularly care whether others wear helmets or not. It's not mandatory everywhere, so to each his/her own. I never ask and it never even crosses my mind when I see another cyclist. But to me, some of the arguments for and against are exaggerated. For example, helmets generally leave one overheated on long hot rides and so no helmet is better. And yet the current aerodynamic craze results in helmets that are much less ventilated, but people are buying them like hot cakes and wearing them everywhere. I have a Bell Lumen which is one of the bigger thicker and not quite so well ventilated, but have never had an issue with overheating on rides over 50 miles. I also don't particularly trust a lot of the impact studies as they are only limited to a particular type of impact. While I do believe helmet can be useful for slow crashes, they aren't quite as useful for fast impact crashes. I also don't buy the risky hypothesis. When I was a kid, I didn't wear a helmet. Now that I do, I am more cautious, not the other way around. Pointing to other countries and how they wear/don't wear helmets is misleading as well, as some countries have vastly superior cycling infrastructure.

I may be wrong, but any helmet laws are restricted to children in the US (and they aren't much). If there is no real legal reason to argue whether or not helmets are safe, why are we arguing? You don't want to wear helmets, fine. You want to wear helmets, fine. Why can't we just leave it at that?

[choke]

These threads have certainly caused me to think more about helmets -- no where other than on bike forums had I ever heard anyone ever question the increased safety, on an individual basis, of choosing to wear a helmet.There is a large segment of the motorcycling world that questions their effectiveness.

[Scuzzer]

So I’ve got to ask, how many of you helmet-free riders allow your kids to not wear helmets while riding, say, to school or a friend’s house?

I wear a helmet almost every time I ride and when my son and I go for bike rides together we both wear helmets. When my son rides the two or three blocks to his friend's houses he never wears a helmet.

Speaking of the culture of fear, the above statement got us a bit of hyperventilated super blow from my son's doctor when I took him in for his 11 year checkup last fall. His doctor asked all kinds of silly probing questions about school, eating and exercise and she seemed a bit disinterested until my son mentioned that he didn't wear a helmet every time he rode a bike. His comment prompted her to go on diatribe about how incredibly dangerous it was that he didn't wear one and then she scooted out the room to find the overly dramatic handout on the importance of helmets.

He felt totally uncomfortable and had that look of "I screwed up" on his face. It had never crossed his mind that riding a bike a few blocks without a helmet was perceived to be as dangerous as playing with a loaded gun.

On our way out of the office I asked his doctor if they had a scary handout on riding skateboards without helmets, they didn't and it seemed it had never occurred to her that she should have one.

[christian]

So I’ve got to ask, how many of you helmet-free riders allow your kids to not wear helmets while riding, say, to school or a friend’s house? Would you even if your spouse was OK with it?
NY state mandates helmet wearing for bicycle riders under 15. As I've said before, I wear a helmet 99% of the time, and encourage my children to wear a helmet. That said, if they forgot it one day, I wouldn't be terribly upset.

I let them sled on the local sledding hill without helmets too. This actually upset some parents because their children were saying that "those kids" aren't wearing helmets. I was like, "wait, -sledding- with a helmet, that's a thing?"

I don't let them go out without a hat under 0 degrees C though. Frostbite is serious business.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I haven't read any replies other than the OP. I'll simply repeat what Stan Solen told a bunch of us punk racers when I started racing in the mid 80's and hard helmets were just becoming mandatory. Stan said: "If you don't think your head is worth $50, well, then, maybe it isn't." Helmets cost $50 max back then.

[carpediemracing]

I haven't read any replies other than the OP. I'll simply repeat what Stan Solen told a bunch of us punk racers when I started racing in the mid 80's and hard helmets were just becoming mandatory. Stan said: "If you don't think your head is worth $50, well, then, maybe it isn't." Helmets cost $50 max back then.

I'm late to the party and this is me also, I read a few posts down on the first page.

Helmets aren't any guarantee to help you but in situations where they help they're invaluable.

Considering helmet-use's extremely minor drawbacks and the significant advantages, I'll wear a helmet when I ride.

I was thinking about the seatbelt comparison but that doesn't apply. Seatbelts help with vehicle control because you stay reasonably anchored if the car is bouncing around. Helmets don't help control the bike better.

[milkbaby]

Wearing a helmet isn't adding to the culture of fear; not riding your bicycle because you are afraid is adding to the culture of fear.

Every time I cycle to work or tell somebody how much I enjoyed my bike ride, I am demonstrating how enjoyable riding is, not how dangerous it is. How is it fear if I'm calmly riding along in what amounts to spandex underwear and a plastic covered foam hat?

[makoti]

On a group ride with friends someone, a female, pulled up to me ands chewed me out for having a family and no helmet. She specifically said "you have other people to worry about other than yourself." I will never, ever, forget it.

This always gets me. I see a family out on bikes. Mom, Dad, kids. Kids have helmets. Mom? Dad? No. I just want to yell at them (I don't) "Great taking care of the kids! Now, who's going to do that when you can't because you smashed your head trying to break their fall?"
You buy insurance for your family, not you. Isn't this really the same thing?

[CunegoFan]

This always gets me. I see a family out on bikes. Mom, Dad, kids. Kids have helmets. Mom? Dad? No. I just want to yell at them (I don't) "Great taking care of the kids! Now, who's going to do that when you can't because you smashed your head trying to break their fall?"
You buy insurance for your family, not you. Isn't this really the same thing?

Does it get you when you see people out walking their dogs while not wearing a helmet?

[jischr]

I've cracked the Styrofoam on three helmets and broke a chunk off of a fourth. That last time they said I didn't move for about 5 seconds after hitting the tarmac. Did the Styrofoam prevent an injury? Maybe, since I didn't have a concussion. I doubt my cranium has mutated into a more protective system from the bumps and whacks its gotten over the years. Picking pebbles out of my hands and knees is one thing. I don't want to pick it out of my temple or scalp. Its a culture of knowing how fast schit happens and trying to mitigate the consequences.

[Louis]

Some guys just don't need helmets...

http://ericrshelton.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/big-harley-rider.jpg

[christian]

That's a real sweet Pan-Shovel.

[christian]

Here's my 2nd favorite picture of a Pan-Shovel.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LyR_De_kWuE/TA0pMiogiMI/AAAAAAAABiY/bZHh1oe8JB0/s1600/48pankidseat.jpg

[Louis]

One has lots of options if you aren't worried a whole lot about drag...

[christian]

In light of the Georgia shootings tonight, I had a final thought:

Talking about bike helmets so much is like suggesting that we'd all be safer if we wore bulletproof vests all the time.

It's undoubtedly true. One could wonder just how much safer. And it's still the wrong end of the problem.

"DOUGLASVILLE, Ga. — A man shot six people Saturday afternoon, killing four of them, including his ex-wife and several children. None of the victims were wearing body armor."

[Louis]

"None of the victims were wearing body armor."

I'll have to remember that the next time I change planes in Atlanta.

[goonster]

Why has car safety technology not included protections for the people that drivers plow into?

You'll be pleased to know about the Euro-NCAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_NCAP) pedestrian impact standards, and to hear that there are car designers worried about the knees of people outside the cars. If you have to be be hit by a car, you want it to be a Citroen C6. ;)

Here (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/taking-the-hit-how-pedestrian-protection-regs-make-cars-fatter-feature)is Car and Driver complaining about it.

[Wesley37]

This always gets me. I see a family out on bikes. Mom, Dad, kids. Kids have helmets. Mom? Dad? No. I just want to yell at them (I don't) "Great taking care of the kids! Now, who's going to do that when you can't because you smashed your head trying to break their fall?"
You buy insurance for your family, not you. Isn't this really the same thing?

Do you lose sleep that people drive without helmets and shower without helmets? Or pedestrians without helmets? Much higher probability of head.injury than cycling.

[CunegoFan]

Do you lose sleep that people drive without helmets and shower without helmets? Or pedestrians without helmets? Much higher probability of head.injury than cycling.

This. It is ironic for "real" cyclists who are afraid to throw a leg over a top tube while not wearing a helmet to criticize someone for riding helmetless around their neighborhood. Not only are there a huge range of riskier everyday activities that people engage in without wearing helmets but the "real" cyclists subject themselves to far more risk while wearing a helmet. A slight descent while wearing a helmet is much more dangerous than riding casually without one. Not only are the chances of crashing greater but helmets are not designed for that kind of impact. They are designed for a fall from a height that will result in impact at about 20 kph. Crash at a mere 50kph (31 mph) on a little descent and the design parameters of the helmet are greatly exceeded because kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity.

Factor risk compensation into the above and "real" cyclists should not be lecturing casual riders about risk.

[DHallerman]

Actually, I see those same situations and think that the parents, as parents tend to be, are the role models for their kids.

I just want to yell at the kids (I don't), "And when you become a grown-up, you won't have to wear a helmet just like your parents."

Dave, who has actually seen the reverse where the parent wears a helmet and the kid on the carrier on the back of the bike or on her own little bike does not wear a helmet and that causes a degree of cognitive dissonance

This always gets me. I see a family out on bikes. Mom, Dad, kids. Kids have helmets. Mom? Dad? No. I just want to yell at them (I don't) "Great taking care of the kids! Now, who's going to do that when you can't because you smashed your head trying to break their fall?"
You buy insurance for your family, not you. Isn't this really the same thing?

[Duende]

This. It is ironic for "real" cyclists who are afraid to throw a leg over a top tube while not wearing a helmet to criticize someone for riding helmetless around their neighborhood. Not only are there a huge range of riskier everyday activities that people engage in without wearing helmets but the "real" cyclists subject themselves to far more risk while wearing a helmet. A slight descent while wearing a helmet is much more dangerous than riding casually without one. Not only are the chances of crashing greater but helmets are not designed for that kind of impact. They are designed for a fall from a height that will result in impact at about 20 kph. Crash at a mere 50kph (31 mph) on a little descent and the design parameters of the helmet are greatly exceeded because kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity.

Factor risk compensation into the above and "real" cyclists should not be lecturing casual riders about risk.

Very Interesting didn't think about that... Curious how this relates to Motorcycle helmets. Wonder what speeds they are rated for.

I imagine for cycling helmets to offer better impact safety at higher speeds, that they'd have to approach the weights of motorcycle helmets.

Wonder who'd be buying/wearing them then?

[christian]

Curious how this relates to Motorcycle helmets. Wonder what speeds they are rated for.The speed of the helmet in the certification drop test is 13 mph - the velocity of a fall from about 6 feet (the vertical component of a motorcycle accident. ) Doesn't mean it won't protect somewhat in a higher energy situation, but it's obviously not going to protect against a fixed object at 50 mph.

[sitzmark]

FWIW if you're selecting your activites based on mortality risk. Numbers always subject to method of approach.

http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

[soulspinner]

The only bad crash Ive had physically so far in all the years was a fall into a construction hole(unmarked at 20 per) and was concussed pretty good. Without a helmet Im not writing this. To each their own, but...............

[velomonkey]

Not only are there a huge range of riskier everyday activities that people engage in without wearing helmets but the "real" cyclists subject themselves to far more risk while wearing a helmet. A slight descent while wearing a helmet is much more dangerous than riding casually without one.

You have ZERO evidence to back up such a statement.

A "feeling" sure, empirical evidence. None.

The logic I keep hearing the "non-helmet" crowd use fails. Just say, "I like riding without one and I don't like hearing about my choice" - NO BIG DEAL, but to say people wear a helmet out of fear, or it increases their unsafe riding, or any of the other tripe is just false.

By the above logic a race car driver could never tell a every-day driver to buckle up. I could go on and on - bottom line, false.

Again, by this logic "Who is Rusty Wallace to tell me to buckle up!!!!!!" http://m.todaystrucking.com/gentlemen-buckle-up-fmcsa-nascar-driver-team-up-on-seat-belt-ad

[Tony T]

A slight descent while wearing a helmet is much more dangerous than riding casually without one.

Falling and hitting one's head while riding casually without a helmet is much more dangerous than riding a slight decent with a helmet and not falling.
(At least in most states it's an adults choice to wear a bike helmet, unlike driving a car where I'm subject to a ticket if I don't use a seatbelt)

[Seramount]

Factor risk compensation into the above and "real" cyclists should not be lecturing casual riders about risk.

and you shouldn't be lecturing anyone on risk assessment when all you're doing is pulling 'facts' out of thin air.

[Duende]

You have ZERO evidence to back up such a statement.

A "feeling" sure, empirical evidence. None.

The logic I keep hearing the "non-helmet" crowd use fails. Just say, "I like riding without one and I don't like hearing about my choice" - NO BIG DEAL, but to say people wear a helmet out of fear, or it increases their unsafe riding, or any of the other tripe is just false.

By the above logic a race car driver could never tell a every-day driver to buckle up. I could go on and on - bottom line, false.

Again, by this logic "Who is Rusty Wallace to tell me to buckle up!!!!!!" http://m.todaystrucking.com/gentlemen-buckle-up-fmcsa-nascar-driver-team-up-on-seat-belt-ad

Again,

The point of this thread was not to argue the usage of helmets. Although it obviously is impossible to avoid in this discussion it seems. I respect everyone's right to make their own choice.

And if people choose wrong, then that's just another form of natural selection which is fine by me too.

What's interesting here is recognitionizing that fear has a strong influence on public opinion. And public opinion does in turn have a strong influence on perceived "norms", and accepted behaviors.

May sounds a lot like Marx but it makes sense.

A seat belt is tested and retested under real world physical tests. And the along with airbags, have proven themselves under real world environmental simulation tests.

However if we're talking about a helmet that is made to endure a lesser degree of force impact and stress load than the conditions it's typically utilized under... then this is something that should be recognized in a rational discussion.

Therefore if a safety mechanism/tool (helmet) is not technically effective or not as effective, in the manner at which it's generally prescribed and employed..

Then like it or not, by in large, we have tricked ourselves into believing that a level of safety has been achieved when in fact it has not.

And to a degree we are relying on a false sense of security. A false sense of security that could definitely be considered an attribute or by product of a culture of fear.

Again, wear helmets... I don't think anyone here is arguing against their effectiveness.

But rather being truthful about their degree of effectiveness and weighing that against their perceived effectiveness.

[CunegoFan]

You have ZERO evidence to back up such a statement.

Let's put some risk into perspective.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/02/daily-chart-7

Annual chance of dying from:
Cycling=1/340K
Falling down stairs=1/157K
Walking=1/54K

So walking is more than six times riskier than cycling. In fact, from another source ( http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm ), the chance of being killed in a traffic accident while walking is eight times higher than cycling. Better wear a helmet.

Let's not get into the odds of dying while in a motor vehicle. (1/18K=20 times greater) Oops. Just did it.

What else are you arguing with? That the chance of crashing while descending or diving into corners is much higher than casually riding short distances at a Fredly pace of 12 mph? That helmets are in no way designed to protect from impacts at 50 kph, a speed that can be attained with a slight descent?


By the above logic a race car driver could never tell a every-day driver to buckle up. I could go on and on - bottom line, false.

No. Your logic would have a race car driver berating every-day drivers for not wearing helmets.


The logic I keep hearing the "non-helmet" crowd use fails. Just say, "I like riding without one and I don't like hearing about my choice" - NO BIG DEAL, but to say people wear a helmet out of fear, or it increases their unsafe riding, or any of the other tripe is just false.


What you don't seem to get there is no crowd advocating people not to wear helmets. There are hysterical nancies who cannot put risk in perspecitive and people pointing out that their fear mongering is not rational.

[malcolm]

I've ridden motorcycles and bicycles all my life and have more often than not worn helmets on both although I've done some rides on both without.

I don't really recall fear as being a motivating factor in either. As a kid when I raced motocross the helmet was part of your gear and it was cool I don't think I ever thought of it as protection it was just part of your gear. Cycling for me it's sorta the same. I don't even realize I'm wearing it.

Maybe the fear is subconscious, but I don't think about getting hurt. I just put on my stuff and go.

As far as safety goes seat belts and air bags only do so much. Speed limits of 70mph and you head on another 70mph vehicle likely hood is you'll die or at least over my career I've seen a whole bunch of seat belted air bagged dead people in MVCs. You mitigate what risk you can or you are comfortable with or the law mandates and you go about your business.
A bike helmet probably helps overall but if you hit your head hard on a 50-60mph descent well styrofoam and plastic probably won't do much. Just because a safety feature doesn't protect you from the extremes doesn't mean it has no value.

For me I wear the helmet, always have, I'm used to and it causes me no discomfort so why not. If you choose not to well your grown and you won't hear a word from me and your welcome to ride with me sans the bonnet. If it's not the law do as you please and I'm good with it.

[edward12]

Very thoughful replies here. I agree, helmets will not prevent serious injury, or worse, in high speed crashes or collisions with cars/fixed objects.

But I wear one anyway because I do think that a helment will offer significant protection from others or even myself. Such as when a toddler rolls out on her tricycle in front of me and I tip over falling near a curb (actually happened). Or when I get knocked over by a kayak while on the bike trail (yes, that really did happen). And, of course, there are those bone-headed moments such as attempting to adjust my pedal tension while turning at very slow speed (whereupon I discovered the unmitgated joy of toe-overlap). I struck my head on hard surfaces during each of these incidents and would have been seriously injured without a helmet.

We have control (most of the time) over our riding skills, etc. We do not have control outside our cycling bubble. So, in my strange little world, helmets are a pragmatic, relatively unobstrusive way of mitgating the risk (such as it is) and ensuring that I can ride the following day.

[cfox]

Let's put some risk into perspective.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/02/daily-chart-7

Annual chance of dying from:
Cycling=1/340K
Falling down stairs=1/157K
Walking=1/54K

So walking is more than six times riskier than cycling. In fact, from another source ( http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm ), the chance of being killed in a traffic accident while walking is eight times higher than cycling. Better wear a helmet.

Let's not get into the odds of dying while in a motor vehicle. (1/18K=20 times greater) Oops. Just did it.

What else are you arguing with? That the chance of crashing while descending or diving into corners is much higher than casually riding short distances at a Fredly pace of 12 mph? That helmets are in no way designed to protect from impacts at 50 kph, a speed that can be attained with a slight descent?



No. Your logic would have a race car driver berating every-day drivers for not wearing helmets.



What you don't seem to get there is no crowd advocating people not to wear helmets. There are hysterical nancies who cannot put risk in perspecitive and people pointing out that their fear mongering is not rational.

You do understand that those stats are non-normalized and meaningless, right? If everyone rode a bike on the road as often as they climbed a staircase, walked across a street, or took a shower, cycling would climb the list pretty quickly.

That said, I don't care what anyone else does. Smoke a butt with your McDonalds while your kids play in traffic for all I care. I have enough to worry about as it is, worrying about someone else wearing a helmet is just not on my list. And a non-helmeted cyclist is already doing more for the "greater good" than a couch potato anyway.

[Dead Man]

And a non-helmeted cyclist is already doing more for the "greater good" than a couch potato anyway.

Hear hear.

[velomonkey]

What's interesting here is recognitionizing that fear has a strong influence on public opinion. And public opinion does in turn have a strong influence on perceived "norms", and accepted behaviors.


It's your thread: your title had fear, your first post had fear, this response has fear.

You are using the word "fear" when it's "safety" - massive distinction.

Fear: an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

Safety: the condition of being protected from or unlikely to cause danger, risk, or injury.

Now, if you think for a second, that when I ride my bike WITH A HELMET - and I don't have a smile ear to freakin ear - then you, my friend, miss the entire point of this sport.

When I am carving a corner as FAST as I possible can with riders inches from my wheel, with my helmet on, and trying to get an advantage in a race - and even with my HR pinned at 170 - I am as giddy as a kid .

On a warm summer day when I hop on my bike, with a helmet, to get a six pack of beer from the local package store in flip flops AND a helmet - there is no fear, it's safety.

For the last time: there is no FEAR involved in any of this.

Bro, get on your bike and smile for cripes sake or go sell life insurance, cause this pitch aint working.

[velomonkey]

What you don't seem to get there is no crowd advocating people not to wear helmets. There are hysterical nancies who cannot put risk in perspecitive and people pointing out that their fear mongering is not rational.

Cripes, I swear people and math don't mix.

Do you know how many people every freaking day in the US user stairs!!!! Let me put it to you this way - the number is MUCH MUCH MUCH larger than those that ride bikes. How long you ride a bike matters not, it's how many times a day you use it. Bro, go back and look at your statistics 101 book - you failed to make even a remote and relevant point.

The only one selling FEAR is you and some of the other posters.

Here, sit down for a second - listen to what I say - real slow.

There. Is. A. Difference. Between. Doing. Something. Out. Of. Fear.
And. Doing. Something. Out. Of. Safety.

When Universities inform students to call for campus security to escort them back to dorms late at night that is because there is a very real and present danger. Students are scared - i.e., they have a fear something is going to happen. Now, do students call campus security when walking from their dorm room to the dorm bathroom. No. Why? Cause they have no fear.

I buckle my seatbelt in my car EVERY TIME because I do it out of safety.

If you can't comprehend this, I can't help you.

[milkbaby]

It's your thread: your title had fear, your first post had fear, this response has fear.

You are using the word "fear" when it's "safety" - massive distinction.

Fear: an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

Safety: the condition of being protected from or unlikely to cause danger, risk, or injury.

Now, if you think for a second, that when I ride my bike WITH A HELMET - and I don't have a smile ear to freakin ear - then you, my friend, miss the entire point of this sport.


Well said. I don't wear a seat belt or wear a bike helmet or not smoke cigarettes while pumping gasoline out of fear but as a safety precaution.

People aren't afraid to bicycle because they see me wearing a helmet, they are afraid of being hit by a car. I think they're missing out.

People need to feel order and a measure of control in their life. Without that, they are stressed out. In reality, there is a lot we do not have control over, and many people fall prey to their fears, realistic or not. People think they have control of their fate while behind the wheel of a big enclosed car whereas they feel a lack of control on a bicycle at the mercy of others. That's nothing to do with helmets.

[cfox]

What you don't seem to get there is no crowd advocating people not to wear helmets. There are hysterical nancies who cannot put risk in perspecitive and people pointing out that their fear mongering is not rational.

That's actually not true; I'm pretty sure there are a fair number of cycling advocates that would prefer no one wear a helmet. They may say they only oppose mandatory helmets, but it's easy to read between the lines. They are convinced that people wearing helmets make cycling look "scary" and discourage others from taking up the activity.

[velomonkey]

Let me give another example: vaccines.

I get my children vaccinated as part of a broader SAFETY program to eradicated smallpox and other diseases.

People who do NOT get their children vaccinated do it of of FEAR that vaccines cause autism (a belief that lacks no sound logic, but I digress).

Now, if you want to discuss that we as a society have moved to using FEAR to sell certain things - then sign me up. Arresting parents that let their 7 year old walk to the park (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/01/16/maryland_parents_investigated_by_the_police_for_le tting_their_kids_walk.html) - FEAR

Thinking that we are moving to a nation of Sharia law - FEAR.

Advancements in safety (and I'm not gonna go over the easy ones like airbags).

Hey parents, you know all that crap you keep under your sink at floor level, well, it's actually super toxic and if your kid is playing (which is at floor level where you have this stuff) and gets into a situation where they drink this stuff - well, they could die. So either put the Mr. Yuk sticker on their or move it to another location.

Hey guys, you know that meat you sell, raw, to other people. Um, we're gonna ask that you put a date on their so that the buyer knows when that dead animal is gonna be bad, cause, you know, dead rotted meat isn't good for anyone, but non-rotted meat can be cooked up and is perfectly safe.

What has lead to there being a "culture of fear" is fear mongering. If you're gonna group bike helmets in the same context as some unfounded fear Sharia Law and vaccines cause autism - then you need some context.

[DHallerman]

I buckle my seatbelt in my car EVERY TIME because I do it out of safety.


Just to add to this, because I've seen too much on this thread -- and other places on the interwebs -- that seem to equate seat belts in cars and bike helmets on heads with something absolute, something black or white. Instead, in both cases -- seat belts and helmets -- the devices simply increase the odds of a safer landing should an accident occur. They prevent nothing, but I'd rather increase my chances of not getting hurt much or at all, so I use helmets and seat belts.

But in both cases I regularly remind myself that I'm doing something -- driving or cycling -- that has elements of danger. So again, I increase my odds of safety by paying attention.

It's not either/or. It's the helmet-or-seat-belt device, it's paying attention, it's operating the bicycle or car with as much skill as I can attain.
It's about the odds. Because that's why they call them accidents. And consciousness counts.

Dave, who also needs to add that even though both bicycles and cars have elements of danger that doesn't mean they need to increase the odds of fear

[Louis]

They are convinced that people wearing helmets make cycling look "scary" and discourage others from taking up the activity.

I think that's BS. Let's say there were an infinite number of 100% safe bike paths, lined by mattress on the sides and with marshmallows as the riding surface, would that magically cause everyone to ride? Of course not. Sure, a few more folks would ride, but this "fear of riding induced by helmets" issue as an excuse to not ride is silly. It's just a story the helmet-haters have concocted to justify their position.

[Duende]

It's your thread: your title had fear, your first post had fear, this response has fear.

You are using the word "fear" when it's "safety" - massive distinction.

Fear: an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

Safety: the condition of being protected from or unlikely to cause danger, risk, or injury.

Now, if you think for a second, that when I ride my bike WITH A HELMET - and I don't have a smile ear to freakin ear - then you, my friend, miss the entire point of this sport.

When I am carving a corner as FAST as I possible can with riders inches from my wheel, with my helmet on, and trying to get an advantage in a race - and even with my HR pinned at 170 - I am as giddy as a kid .

On a warm summer day when I hop on my bike, with a helmet, to get a six pack of beer from the local package store in flip flops AND a helmet - there is no fear, it's safety.

For the last time: there is no FEAR involved in any of this.

Bro, get on your bike and smile for cripes sake or go sell life insurance, cause this pitch aint working.

Wow, it amazes me how someone could be so off topic and think they are so on point. The thread is not about fear, it's about the culture of fear. A big disctinction you continue to ignore and make personal.

If you choose to disregard the observations myself and others are having about the realities of perceived safety and public behavior then fine. But there is no pitch. If anything the only pitch I'm making is for folks to think for themselves. And not subscribe to "group think"

[CunegoFan]

That's actually not true; I'm pretty sure there are a fair number of cycling advocates that would prefer no one wear a helmet. They may say they only oppose mandatory helmets, but it's easy to read between the lines.

Really? Where are these people--other than being used to construct someone's straw man, or course?

[cfox]

Really? Where are these people--other than being used to construct someone's straw man, or course?

On this very forum or over on vsalon...just look back through some helmet threads.

[velomonkey]

Wow, it amazes me how someone could be so off topic and think they are so on point. The thread is not about fear, it's about the culture of fear. A big disctinction you continue to ignore and make personal.
"

Every. Single. Word. You. Said. Is. Negated. Or as others might call it: wrong - I addressed the culture of fear. I specifically said what it was and how it propogates (of which you are being a merchant of fear).

You just chose to ignore it and then write some words that make it look like you have a point - and who is this "others" you are talking about - I see, like, maybe 3 people who kinda sorta not really agreer with you - is this the royal "we" you are addressing? I just want to know.

In sum - you have no point - this is about safety, you call wearing a helmet part of the culture of fear - I call BS. and if you choose not wear a helmet, Ace, you ARE thinking about yourself and I don't give a squirt of pee.

To quote my cousin Vinny - "I'm done with this guy."

[Dead Man]

Yea... get dem demons out

[Duende]

Every. Single. Word. You. Said. Is. Negated. Or as others might call it: wrong - I addressed the culture of fear. I specifically said what it was and how it propogates (of which you are being a merchant of fear).

You just chose to ignore it and then write some words that make it look like you have a point - and who is this "others" you are talking about - I see, like, maybe 3 people who kinda sorta not really agreer with you - is this the royal "we" you are addressing? I just want to know.

In sum - you have no point - this is about safety, you call wearing a helmet part of the culture of fear - I call BS. and if you choose not wear a helmet, Ace, you ARE thinking about yourself and I don't give a squirt of pee.

To quote my cousin Vinny - "I'm done with this guy."

You bring up hangman's arguments (Safety belts and Vaccines), and ignore the fact that cycling helmets (unlike motorcycle helmets) are not designed for high speed impacts.

Yeah.. you negated all my points alright. :rolleyes:

I never said "wearing a helmet is part of the culture of fear". Those are your words distorting what I wrote to try and fulfill some egotistical need to win an argument that isn't there.

I do question peer pressure to wear a helmet. And I question the blatant acceptance of their safety, when it comes without rationally understanding their true effectiveness for the manner which they are being employed.

[choke]

Wow, it amazes me how someone could be so off topic and think they are so on point. The thread is not about fear, it's about the culture of fear. A big disctinction you continue to ignore and make personal.

If you choose to disregard the observations myself and others are having about the realities of perceived safety and public behavior then fine. But there is no pitch. If anything the only pitch I'm making is for folks to think for themselves. And not subscribe to "group think"Yes, some of us do get it.

I addressed the culture of fear. I specifically said what it was and how it propogates (of which you are being a merchant of fear).Where, exactly, did you do this? I've read every post and fail to find it.

[CunegoFan]

On this very forum or over on vsalon...just look back through some helmet threads.

Point them out in this thread. I don't recall anyone here telling people not to wear helmets.

[cfox]

Point them out in this thread. I don't recall anyone here telling people not to wear helmets.

No thanks, look yourself. I don't care if you believe me. Many helmet threads have posters chime in about helmets keeping people away from cycling because helmets make cycling look scary.

[goonster]

How long you ride a bike matters not, it's how many times a day you use it.
If I had worn the thought helmet, would my brain not hurt so much now? :confused:

[goonster]

Many helmet threads have posters chime in about helmets keeping people away from cycling because helmets make cycling look scary.
Not all helmets, all the time.

Forcing these people, on this road, on this ride, by law to wear helmets . . . that would be sad.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2484065.ece/alternates/s615/Elderly-couple-riding-bicycles.jpg

[Black Dog]

So, all of us are in a large beer tent. Those that wear helmets are told that they have to take it off in order to have a beer, those that do not wear them are told that they have to put one on to get their beer. I bet we all end up with a beer in our hands having a good laugh. :beer: :banana:

Back to your bickering.

[malcolm]

So, all of us are in a large beer tent. Those that wear helmets are told that they have to take it off in order to have a beer, those that do not wear them are told that they have to put one on to get their beer. I bet we all end up with a beer in our hands having a good laugh. :beer: :banana:

Back to your bickering.

If I take my helmet off and then put it back on will I get two beers??

[christian]

At D2R2 you have to wear a helmet, but given the 60mph descent into Colrain that's a good idea. You also get a free beer.

[cfox]

Not all helmets, all the time.

Forcing these people, on this road, on this ride, by law to wear helmets . . . that would be sad.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2484065.ece/alternates/s615/Elderly-couple-riding-bicycles.jpg

100% agree. Like I wrote earlier, I don't give a ····· what anyone else does...they can go take a nap on the freeway for all I care. I don't worry about the greater good. I worry about me and my loved ones. If everyone else did the same the greater good would be gooder. Actually, I am a just a little worried about that lady in the picture. If she hits a pothole, that's gonna hurt.

[Black Dog]

If I take my helmet off and then put it back on will I get two beers??

Sure, as long as you don't ride your bike home after your beers. :)

[velomonkey]

Yes, some of us do get it.

Where, exactly, did you do this? I've read every post and fail to find it.

Um, on the very page you posted - right above your post - where I discussed vaccines, Sharia Law and arresting parents who let kids walk themselves to the park at 7.

Then I said "What has lead to there being a "culture of fear" is fear mongering. If you're gonna group bike helmets in the same context as some unfounded fear Sharia Law and vaccines cause autism - then you need some context."

So, for the record - fear of vaccines and arresting parents for allowing a 7 year old to walk to a public park is the result of fear mongering. Fear mongering leads to "a culture of fear."

Culture of Fear: incite fear in the general public to achieve political goals.

Now, either you didn't read all my posts or you think that there is some special interest group, given people unfounded fears and drumming up an agenda to have more people wear helmets.

[Louis]

Culture of Fear: incite fear in the general public to achieve political goals.

Two of the most notorious of the genre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDTBnsqxZ3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io9KMSSEZ0Y

[velomonkey]

You bring up hangman's arguments (Safety belts and Vaccines), and ignore the fact that cycling helmets (unlike motorcycle helmets) are not designed for high speed impacts.

Yeah.. you negated all my points alright. :rolleyes:

I never said "wearing a helmet is part of the culture of fear". Those are your words distorting what I wrote to try and fulfill some egotistical need to win an argument that isn't there.

I do question peer pressure to wear a helmet. And I question the blatant acceptance of their safety, when it comes without rationally understanding their true effectiveness for the manner which they are being employed.

First, Jack, you are aware you title the post "Culture of Fear and Cycling" - then you went on some diatribe about how bad you felt because of pressure to wear a helmet. Now, this isn't a leap, by posting this title, and posing the question "why should I always have to wear a helmet" - you either subscribe to one or two thoughts

1. The culture of fear contributes to me having to wear a helmet when I don't always want to (or)
2. There's a culture of fear, but it's not that - I'm just click baiting you, but I gotta wear a helmet when I don't always want to

Nowhere, anywhere, have you ever said point 2.

Sounds to me, by your own posts, like "peer pressure" is making you where a helmet. Now, you do know, peer pressure is not the same as culture of fear? Please tell me you know this? I think you do, but I also think you have dug yourself into such a hole you simply can't see logic.

Muslims extremists are going to come and kill you - so, give up some rights to stay safe and we need to go there and kill them. Culture of Fear.

Teenage smokers. Peer Pressure.

If you want to bitch about peer pressure for wearing a helmet, then bitch about that. Nut up and say it, but don't try to disguise it as culture of fear. In fact, let me do you one better. I agree, there is peer pressure to wear a helmet. That's not Culture of Fear, bro.

"I do question peer pressure to wear a helmet" - congrats, you just took the cake for first world problems.

"And I question the blatant acceptance of their safety . . . " Greg LeMond could out descend most modern day bike racers - and he was doing it with no helmet (the vast majority of the time), on bike that wasn't as stiff, with a flaccid fork, and a quill stem. I say this because by your logic, i.e., helmets make riders feel invincible when really they aren't" modern day bike racers should be blowing away his descents and they aren't. Most racers/bikers take into account their skill, equipment and safety aparatices when descending. A helmet was put at the end of that list for a reason - I suspect you don't understand why - or maybe you do, but just wont admit it.

OK, but those are racers, what about non-racers. By every metric head injuries have gone down as helmet sales and usage has gone up. FACT.

[Duende]

First, Jack, you are aware you title the post "Culture of Fear and Cycling" - then you went on some diatribe about how bad you felt because of pressure to wear a helmet. Now, this isn't a leap, by posting this title, and posing the question "why should I always have to wear a helmet" - you either subscribe to one or two thoughts

1. The culture of fear contributes to me having to wear a helmet when I don't always want to (or)
2. There's a culture of fear, but it's not that - I'm just click baiting you, but I gotta wear a helmet when I don't always want to

Nowhere, anywhere, have you ever said point 2.

Sounds to me, by your own posts, like "peer pressure" is making you where a helmet. Now, you do know, peer pressure is not the same as culture of fear? Please tell me you know this? I think you do, but I also think you have dug yourself into such a hole you simply can't see logic.

Muslims extremists are going to come and kill you - so, give up some rights to stay safe and we need to go there and kill them. Culture of Fear.

Teenage smokers. Peer Pressure.

If you want to bitch about peer pressure for wearing a helmet, then bitch about that. Nut up and say it, but don't try to disguise it as culture of fear. In fact, let me do you one better. I agree, there is peer pressure to wear a helmet. That's not Culture of Fear, bro.

"I do question peer pressure to wear a helmet" - congrats, you just took the cake for first world problems.

"And I question the blatant acceptance of their safety . . . " Greg LeMond could out descend most modern day bike racers - and he was doing it with no helmet (the vast majority of the time), on bike that wasn't as stiff, with a flaccid fork, and a quill stem. I say this because by your logic, i.e., helmets make riders feel invincible when really they aren't" modern day bike racers should be blowing away his descents and they aren't. Most racers/bikers take into account their skill, equipment and safety aparatices when descending. A helmet was put at the end of that list for a reason - I suspect you don't understand why - or maybe you do, but just wont admit it.

OK, but those are racers, what about non-racers. By every metric head injuries have gone down as helmet sales and usage has gone up. FACT.

:crap:

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ARGUING OVER WEARING HELMETS.

OR your latest hangman's argument that helmets do not have an effect on the descending speeds of racers.

Chop up my posts and make quotes out of context as much as you like. But it's a cheap trick and you know it.

I started this thread merely because another thread caused me to self reflect and come to the realization that I wear a helmet when it's actually is NOT as effective (IE during long rides with fast descents etc..) and also realize that I don't wear a helmet when it actually IS more effective and more necessary (during commutes).

I then asked myself and speculated as to what the reasons could be for this behavior by sharing experiences.

You think that's a diatribe? Or that I feel bad about this?

God.. get over yourself.

[choke]

Um, on the very page you posted - right above your post - where I discussed vaccines, Sharia Law and arresting parents who let kids walk themselves to the park at 7.I read that. It didn't seem to me as though you explained it at all. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

By every metric head injuries have gone down as helmet sales and usage has gone up. FACT.Not even close. This is the first thing I found when searching for it: Proponents of helmet laws say that they reduce injuries. But evidence for this claim remains mixed. Two studies published last month came to opposing conclusions. The first, published in BMJ, compared rates of cycling-related head injuries in six Canadian provinces before and after they passed helmet legislation. Researchers analyzed data from 1994 to 2008 and, after accounting for baseline trends, concluded that “the overall rates of head injuries were not appreciably altered by helmet legislation.”

The second study, published in the Journal of Pediatrics, analyzed statistics on U.S. bicyclists who were severely injured or killed between January 1999 and December 2009. The authors compared the injury and death rates among cyclists age 16 and younger in states with mandatory helmet laws for youngsters to rates in states without such laws. They concluded that injury rates were about 20 percent lower in states with helmet laws. No state has passed a universal helmet law, but the District, Maryland and 20 other states do require young riders, generally under 16, to wear one.http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/do-bike-helmet-laws-really-save-people/2013/06/03/6a6532b4-c6df-11e2-9245-773c0123c027_story.html

Here are some more: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1146.html So it's far from an established fact.

[velomonkey]

Here are some more: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1146.html So it's far from an established fact.

Look at the title - Bike helmet LAWS

Did you even read the article you linked? "“No one would argue that helmets don’t decrease the risk of injury." It then goes on to say that helmet laws make cycling seem more dangerous than it is and overall number of bike riders go down and that we should be concentrating on other items that bring risk into cycling - like bad car drivers!!! You know I wrote all this already, right (you said you read each of my posts). So, helmet laws, I never, not once argued for them and, myself (if you're asking) - I will take education any day over laws. So, no, I'm not for mandatory bike helmet laws. Back to square one - Helmets save lives. Period.

We had plenty of laws for drunk driving. Drunk driving went down when education about driving drunk came into play.

[velomonkey]

:
OR your latest hangman's argument that helmets do not have an effect on the descending speeds of racers.


I dunno what a "hangman's argument" is. It seems the internet doesn't either.


Chop up my posts and make quotes out of context as much as you like. But it's a cheap trick and you know it.


Fine. I won't chop it up. Easy. Cause it's not a trick, but let's go on.


I started this thread merely because another thread caused me to self reflect and come to the realization that I wear a helmet when it's actually is NOT as effective (IE during long rides with fast descents etc..) and also realize that I don't wear a helmet when it actually IS more effective and more necessary (during commutes).


So, wait, let me get this straight - you go on a long ride and because for a small section of said long ride there is a fast descent. That means the entire ride should be done without a helmet - because of a section, which, let's be generous, is 10% of the entire ride. Rock. Solid. Logic.

Do you use the old Campy delta brakes? They never worked very well despite looking awesome. I did put equipment and skill before safety apparatus for a reason.

Aside from skills and equipment - I think I have a solution for you. Wear a helmet. Or not.



I then asked myself and speculated as to what the reasons could be for this behavior by sharing experiences.


You created, authored and started a thread. A far cry from "I then asked myself. . . . "


You think that's a diatribe? Or that I feel bad about this?


Diatribe - A bitter, abusive denunciation. Well, "culture of fear" isn't exactly a well-regarded tactic. Why would I think you feel bad about this?


God.. get over yourself.

Peace offering - I will buy you a beer at D2R2 and drink it with you. I have mad drinking skills & I'm considering a helmet while drinking.

[Duende]

Peace offering - I will buy you a beer at D2R2 and drink it with you. I have mad drinking skills & I'm considering a helmet while drinking.

Peace offering accepted. You buy the beer and I will buy the shots! :)

And remind me never to mention helmets in a thread ever again!

[Louis]

I have nothing to add, other than to wonder what helmet would Sia wear?

http://i1.nyt.com/images/2015/02/15/fashion/08GRAMMYSREDCARPET39/08GRAMMYSREDCARPET39-superJumbo.jpg

[jr59]

I read that. It didn't seem to me as though you explained it at all. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Not even close. This is the first thing I found when searching for it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/do-bike-helmet-laws-really-save-people/2013/06/03/6a6532b4-c6df-11e2-9245-773c0123c027_story.html

Here are some more: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1146.html So it's far from an established fact.

Hey Choke, the ignore button works!

[jr59]

It's also a good idea for drivers - replacing the airbag with a dagger should have a nice calming effect out on the roads, which should benefit us all.


This would be a GREAT idea, it would surely make drivers more aware and drive better! That or about 5 lbs of a rigged C4 on both bumpers!

[DHallerman]

Ah yes, Sia. Got turned on to her music with the final episode of "Six Feet Under."

And that song is a good reminder for extreme uphills, too.

I have nothing to add, other than to wonder what helmet would Sia wear?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24440195/sia_grammy08-small.jpg

[fuzzalow]

Pages upon pages on this and I am completely flummoxed on the passions, convictions and vituperative angst held by many on this topic. Why does it inflame in the way it does? Indistinguishable as to whether discussing the merits of Giro Synthe or Roe v. Wade.

I am not trying to stir the pot. I get no more riled up about how someone else feels about helmet use than I would in my own disappointment in my not being fluent in Farsi. I'd actually see far more importance in a faculty in Farsi than insight into the inner machinations of a helmet zealot both for & against.

Helmets...one more reason the disagree and one more petty reason to throw each of our own under the bus. "But he can't be a man 'cos he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me, I can't get no".

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PKhlcinLuNI/VCfV4PkmCGI/AAAAAAAA-rs/4HW0bZq5z0A/s1600/Jimi%2BHendrix%2B%26%2BMick%2BJagger%2C%2BNew%2BYo rk%2C%2B1969.jpg