What do you think about this idea for GH?

[Spicoli]

With all this talk about George and Disco's tactics, just gonna throw this out there. What do you do when you are up against someone that you know is stronger than you? Maybe they should ATTACK the CRAP out of HIM with everything they have (TB that is). I really dont see that happening too much. (I know I only see 1/8 of the race on tv) but it seems as if most are still in that controlled "Lance style of racing? Just look at what one big hit from Hoste did. Hit him ,hit him and hit him, eventually do you think you will get the right combo? Even if its not GH but as long as its not TB. Also if you dont, you looked damm good try'in and no one is going to hold that against you. I am not talking isolate Boonen, more like make it so he cannot follow every attack. It used to work for Mapei and half the time they were the only ones left standing. Man, sometimes they went on each other? I know its easier said than done but it sure would be COOL to watch, no one can go with everything (I THINK?) :confused:

I may be so far off with this thought but, I just wanted to think out loud for a while. Its kinda cool to try to think of a way to beat someone who just looks absolutly bullet proof. The biggest comppliment there is really. :beer:

I would love to hear more theories on how to take down someone who may become the best hardman ever? Chess anyone?

[Ray]

...that seems like it only works if you have the horses and he doesn't. Like when Hincapie was strong back in Paris Roubaix in '01 or '02 and got in the final selection with Ludo Dierksons and THREE guys from Domo. George was waaay strong that day, but Domo just took turns attacking him until something stuck and Knaven went away. If George had even one strong teammate in that final selection, it might have been different. In this year's case, Discovery may have the people to attack, but Quick Step had twice the number of riders in the break and when you've got guys like Pozatto setting the pace and Bettini chasing down attacks, it's waaaaay easier said than done. And when Boonen is strong enough to turn the one attack they did launch into his own breakaway - - - what are you gonna do?

Kind of like all of Lance's opponents talked every year about how they were gonna attack him relentlessly. But except for '03 when he was relatively weak, they could never make anything stick. When the lead guy is that strong and has a strong team, there just doesn't seem to be that much you can do.

-Ray

[e-RICHIE]

I would love to hear more theories on how to take down someone who may become the best hardman ever? Chess anyone?



boonen has a good team.
for every match disco lights,
qs can light one too. and don't
forget about intra-field alliances;
i'll gladly pay you tuedsay for a
hamburger today.

[saab2000]

There is no real way anyone can attack Boonen's team. Even without him they are one of the best teams around. And with him they are unstoppable. Like Ray said, when you are outnumbered, like he was in P-R a few years ago it is hard to win. I remember watching that and the only way he could have won would have been if he would have been stronger than the opposition. Being just as strong is not good enough if you are outnumbered.

Boonen's team has a bunch of top riders on it. If Boonen were isolated it might be different, but he is not.

[Dr. Doofus]

the only cat who can beat boonen is vdb's dog

uh

or

something like that

[Spicoli]

I would lean more towards "hope for a mistake". I am well aware of Q-steps guns but if it became an up/down fast/slow race of surges Boonen wont/cannot go with everything and unfortunatly for Disco that might be there only hope, that they (Q-Step) actually let one go? Kinda, hope someone other than TB gets off, and take those odds over TB? Like going into the velodrome with Knaven instead of Museuw(Sp). Yes I know the out come of that, Pippo too but if you say your done, your done....

Everyone really is screwed because it seems they are that good.

[saab2000]

Well, P-R is a bit of a crapshoot and a few untimely flats or crashes will change everything.

Frederic Guesdon will surprise again.

[Fixed]

bro sprinters think they can win , you can't not think that and sprint .
ask 10 great sprinters if they think they could beat t.b. what do you think they would say?
cheers

[jerk]

but unless you're growth hormone, it's a good thing when a team mate podiums. the jerk hopes its a sprint in the velodrome and leif hoste "mistakenly" rides hincapie into a barrier trying to come around boonen. the quick step contract will be in the mail imho bro.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

but unless you're growth hormone, it's a good thing when a team mate podiums. the jerk hopes its a sprint in the velodrome and leif hoste "mistakenly" rides boonen into a barrier trying to come around boonen. the quick step contract will be in the mail imho bro.

jerk


ah from out of the mouths of babes

[Argos]

Wow, hatin' the player hard. GH doesn't need to get ridden into the boards.

Spicoli, I agree. I think I said something like that in the flanders thread. Go all Mapei/Domo on them (Oh wait... That's QS :p ), but for Disco to play, they need more at the front.

I think any win over the next week by anyone other then Boonen, when Boonen is in the Mix, should garner double Pro-Tour Points. The Normal set for winning, and double it for beating Tom.

I REALLY like Tom, but I hope it gets more.......interesting. It's early April, but somehow it feels very Lance-ish in Europe with all of the Domination moving in from the North.

http://www.hln.be/hln/autodeploy/hln/nl/red/art/hln_art_46946_13_NL.jpg

[Lincoln]

The idea is right but I don't see any one team with the firepower to make it work. What it would take is some cooperative efforts. A couple of teams adopting the same aggressive tactics could weaken qs enough to isolate tb.

[e-RICHIE]

The idea is right but I don't see any one team with the firepower to make it work. What it would take is some cooperative efforts. A couple of teams adopting the same aggressive tactics could weaken qs enough to isolate tb.


i cannot believe more teams would align
themselves with disco than with quickstep.
i really think there is residual resentment
owing from the lance/tdf-only era. it may
not be overt, but i think the sport, the sport
that operates from january to october, is
glad to be operating on a full schedule.

[Lincoln]

i cannot believe more teams would align
themselves with disco than with quickstep.
i really think there is residual resentment
owing from the lance/tdf-only era. it may
not be overt, but i think the sport, the sport
that operates from january to october, is
glad to be operating on a full schedule.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I think it is conceivable that a few teams would align to try and take down TB/QS (after all QS and Disco aren't the only ones who want to win it) but aligning with Disco is less likely. That being said, in the right scenario, Disco would only need the help of one other team--not a bunch of them.

I think the most likely scenario for someone other than TB to win would be to have the lead group reduced to a reasonable number (like in Flanders-and a real possibility in PR) and then to have a couple of teams sending some launches to try and weaken TB/QS and set up their stud of the day. Most likely one team trying this will fail, but a couple of teams trying it could make it work. This scenario doesn't rely on teams aligning so much as realizing that they all need to try the same thing at the same time or resign themselves to another QS romp.

[Kevan]

With all this talk about George and Disco's tactics, just gonna throw this out there. What do you do when you are up against someone that you know is stronger than you? Maybe they should ATTACK the CRAP out of HIM with everything they have (TB that is). I really dont see that happening too much. (I know I only see 1/8 of the race on tv) but it seems as if most are still in that controlled "Lance style of racing? Just look at what one big hit from Hoste did. Hit him ,hit him and hit him, eventually do you think you will get the right combo? Even if its not GH but as long as its not TB. Also if you dont, you looked damm good try'in and no one is going to hold that against you. I am not talking isolate Boonen, more like make it so he cannot follow every attack. It used to work for Mapei and half the time they were the only ones left standing. Man, sometimes they went on each other? I know its easier said than done but it sure would be COOL to watch, no one can go with everything (I THINK?) :confused:

I may be so far off with this thought but, I just wanted to think out loud for a while. Its kinda cool to try to think of a way to beat someone who just looks absolutly bullet proof. The biggest comppliment there is really. :beer:

I would love to hear more theories on how to take down someone who may become the best hardman ever? Chess anyone?


I'm still playing out what happened and what might have taken place had GH made the jump to the Boonen and Hoste break, keeping in mind the statements of Disco's DS, Dirk Demol, had made, as per Len J's thread of yesterday*.

As I see it, had GH caught the other two riders as was hoped, let's say alone, Boonen would most likely have sat up allowing the peloton to catch up rather than waste his efforts unless the two Disco riders were willing to keep up the steam themselves; he would simply would have sat in and let the the boys tow him in. It wouldn't much matter to Boonen whether he remained as part of the break or kept himself up at the foward end of the peloton, except dueling with two at the finish line is easier than dueling with the many (less traffic). He's the favored horse for the last 100 yards and he knows it. So had everything worked out as Disco wished, it's likely they would at best have gotten 2nd and 3rd, maybe GH winning 2nd. Except for GH, it's a minor point and is no real change from what ultimately happened. Had Boonen sat up it's likely Disco wouldn't have done as well as they did, getting caught up with the other teams towards a finish.

So too, if GH had brought another QS rider along with him, 2 against 2, the odds would have been reduced for Disco to win 2nd and 3rd.

That's it I'm done. I think. Next race!

*"The answer to the Flanders strategy question" thread started by Len J yesterday included some interesting quotes from Disco's DS Dirk Demol:

"When Leif attacked with 32 km left it was not supposed to have been a race-deciding effort. We were trying to break up the Quick Step grip on the front of the race. We figured a big effort could get the numbers down to maybe two of them and two of us and then we'd see how it went. Leif was surprised to see that he had only Boonen with him, and radioed back to me to see what he should do."

"I told Leif that he could cooperate but that Boonen had to take the longest pulls. I also told him that if George could bridge up, then Leif could not pull any more and he'd have to wait for George."

[e-RICHIE]

I'm still playing out what happened and what might have taken place had GH made the jump to the Boonen and Hoste break<cut>

if he jumped, his break companions would have been
with him. pvp et al are no slouches don'tcha know!

[chrisroph]

Boonen sprints like petacchi, tt's like zabriskie, and climbs like bettini. He's not going to be easy to beat without a motor or a baseball bat. Disco's tactics were fine. They took the two podium places that were available. If the second group had bridged, boonen still would have won and gh might have gotten second.

[Kevan]

and had it been GH instead of Hoste tagging Boonen, I bet we might have seen a completely different out come.

Well, 'cept for Boonen that is.

[allezdude]

Georgous George won kerne brussels last year. they had devloder attack the heck out boonen several times, and boonen chased each time, killing boonen's legs. this allowed GH to get away and eventually win.

from cyclingnews.com: Devolder did his utmost to weaken Boonen, attacking repeatedly while the others watched. It worked, and the Lotto-led bunch clawed its way back to the group with nine kilometres to go. There was no way that anyone wanted a bunch sprint with Boonen there, so the attacks continued non-stop until Kevin Van Impe (Chocolade Jacques) and George Hincapie (Discovery Channel) went in the tailwind with 6 km to go. The only Lotto rider to react was Roesems, but he wasn't quick enough and the two were away. http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/feb05/kbk05/?id=results

of course NOW no one's going to be able to isolate boonen because QS is so strong.

[Fixed]

i cannot believe more teams would align
themselves with disco than with quickstep.
i really think there is residual resentment
owing from the lance/tdf-only era. it may
not be overt, but i think the sport, the sport
that operates from january to october, is
glad to be operating on a full schedule.
bro that may be even in the disco team .
cheers

[Ray]

I'm still playing out what happened and what might have taken place had GH made the jump to the Boonen and Hoste break, keeping in mind the statements of Disco's DS, Dirk Demol, had made, as per Len J's thread of yesterday*.

As I see it, had GH caught the other two riders as was hoped, let's say alone, Boonen would most likely have sat up allowing the peloton to catch up rather than waste his efforts unless the two Disco riders were willing to keep up the steam themselves; he would simply would have sat in and let the the boys tow him in. It wouldn't much matter to Boonen whether he remained as part of the break or kept himself up at the foward end of the peloton, except dueling with two at the finish line is easier than dueling with the many (less traffic). He's the favored horse for the last 100 yards and he knows it. So had everything worked out as Disco wished, it's likely they would at best have gotten 2nd and 3rd, maybe GH winning 2nd. Except for GH, it's a minor point and is no real change from what ultimately happened. Had Boonen sat up it's likely Disco wouldn't have done as well as they did, getting caught up with the other teams towards a finish.

So too, if GH had brought another QS rider along with him, 2 against 2, the odds would have been reduced for Disco to win 2nd and 3rd.

That's it I'm done. I think. Next race!

*"The answer to the Flanders strategy question" thread started by Len J yesterday included some interesting quotes from Disco's DS Dirk Demol:

"When Leif attacked with 32 km left it was not supposed to have been a race-deciding effort. We were trying to break up the Quick Step grip on the front of the race. We figured a big effort could get the numbers down to maybe two of them and two of us and then we'd see how it went. Leif was surprised to see that he had only Boonen with him, and radioed back to me to see what he should do."

"I told Leif that he could cooperate but that Boonen had to take the longest pulls. I also told him that if George could bridge up, then Leif could not pull any more and he'd have to wait for George."

Except that in the very unlikely event that Hincapie could have bridged without bringing anyone else along (particularly Bettini), then Disco could try the old strategy of alternating attacks. First Hoste goes and Hincapie sits on Boonen's wheel until he catches him and then Hincapie counter attacks with Hoste sitting on while Boonen chases it down. At some poiint Boonen is spent. OTOH, George and Flecha claimed they tried to attack Boonen last year in PR but Boonen was driving the break and riding so hard that they COULDN'T attack him in any meaningful way. So if he's able to do that and still win the sprint, you just have to hand it to him. But if you can get two guys who actually CAN attack him and make him work to pull each of them back, you SHOULD be able to beat him.

EDIT - jeez, just saw all of the intervening responses which said what I did but better and in less words. I hate when the last post on the page messes me up like that. Sorry.

-Ray "who knows nothing first-hand, but is fascinated by race strategy anyway" Sachs

[chrisroph]

In KBK, GH played it perfectly. In fact, that is the only race I have seen footage from where I can say that. If not for that race, I'd say the guy lacks a real racing brain. This is harsh and yes he is a super rider but some people have legs, some have brains and some have both. It takes both to be a champion. Legs alone can get you many top 5's.

There have too many races where GH has happily pulled the group along like you pull the team along on a saturday squandering his energy and somebody has attacked hard at just the right time. Museew and pvp used to do it to GH all the time.

If GH had bridge alone last week, making it 2 discos to boonen, what would have happened? I bet boonen would have dropped them both and won. When it is two against one, the best tactic given the legs is for one to attack 2. And boonen has the form. He is stronger than when GH won KBK.

[Spicoli]

Kevan, the idea is to take away TB's incentive and keep him away from the end of the race. The chess part of it, since it is pretty obvious how strong he and his team are. Even if you have to drag another Q-step rider to the finish the odds are better than bringing TB. Almost like a hostage so TB stays away?

Christoph, I dont know if TB would be strong enough to take a constant two on one from any qaulity team if they were lucky enough to get that set up. Pick two buddies you know are weaker but get them to gang up on you and I would bet you (not you personally) but you get the idea, that you could not follow every attack and they or one would drop ya?

Allezdude,BINGO W/KBK!

[Kevan]

Kevan, the idea is to take away TB's incentive and keep him away from the end of the race. The chess part of it, since it is pretty obvious how strong he and his team are. Even if you have to drag another Q-step rider to the finish the odds are better than bringing TB. Almost like a hostage so TB stays away?

TB's too smart and too powerful to be played with. Short of him getting caught in traffic at the sprint, it's gonna take some heapin', how did the jerk state it, growth hormone... to beat the likes of him at the finish. But indulging me with this pretend scenerio a while longer, that GH makes the leap and joins TB and LH alone at the break, what happens? TB's what... about 10k from the finish, he can play nice and work with the 2 discos, or he can pretend to play nice, making sure the other 2 are working harder, or he can try to slow the break so the main group has a chance of catching up. He would benefit keeping the pack small. Disco likely would have tried to put the hurt on him, but he would have prevailed anyway, with the results unchanged from reality.

I totally agree, if GH had bridged the gap he would have brought others with him, defeating common sense, which fortunately he had enough of. TB would have had additional support and Disco a lesser chance to place their 2 & 3.

[Spicoli]

Kevan- I think you are confusing the idea of the thread. It is a how the heck can this freak be beat thread. I am not refering to Flanders, what if's are not my interest, but more of theories on ways to set up a different result in future races. To me the "oh him and they are too strong" is not enough and I doubt any teams feel that way either. If it were up to me (they would be screwed by my incompitence!) but its not (thank God) I would say all or nothing and DIE tryin since thats the main goal. Reality is that they (other teams) are going to have to beat him with the strategy game IMO. Honorless Annoying tactical racing might be in order?

PS I love threads like this!

[Kevan]

I took it astray. Sorry about that.

Short of a team gaining a successful break without TB, I don't see it happening unless, again, he gets stuck (blocked) in traffic towards the end.

Sorry for going on.... and on... and on...

I think I'll go over and mess with Sandy's head now.

[Ray]

Kevan- I think you are confusing the idea of the thread. It is a how the heck can this freak be beat thread. I am not refering to Flanders, what if's are not my interest, but more of theories on ways to set up a different result in future races. To me the "oh him and they are too strong" is not enough and I doubt any teams feel that way either. If it were up to me (they would be screwed by my incompitence!) but its not (thank God) I would say all or nothing and DIE tryin since thats the main goal. Reality is that they (other teams) are going to have to beat him with the strategy game IMO. Honorless Annoying tactical racing might be in order?

PS I love threads like this!
Well, clearly the BEST hope - maybe still not good enough, but the best chance, would be to isolate him in a break with two or more team-mates from another team. Hypothetically Hoste and Hincapie. To do that, though, they'd have both have had to attack at the same instant in a coordinated attack and hope that still only Boonen would be able to jump on. I have trouble seeing Bettini letting that happen, but Hoste came from a few places back when he attacked and nobody marked him except Boonen so maybe it could happen. If the three QS boyz were at the front, I guess there'd be a chance of both Discos springing an attack from behind them at the same time. Or is this where my lack of actual experience kicks in - does this EVER work?

If it could work, it seems to me to be the best way to try and beat the big guy.

-Ray