Problems with 2004 new style head-ons

[Russ]

I have the new style hean-ons (HO) on my Ottrott (http://www.serotta.com/pages/details.html).

On todays ride I heard the rear deraileur/chain make noise due to the cable stretching a bit (this is a new bike). So I fiddled with the HO until the noise dissapeared. A few miles later I noticed that the HO had returned to its original position before the adjustment, therfore I had to adjust it again!!!

It appears that these new style head-ons are easier to srew/unscrew, but they don't seem to stay in place as the old ones. BTW, the old type (2002) used to have a spring and a washer, but I think they were harder screw/unscrew.

Have any of you had this problem with the new HO? How have you solved it?

Thanks!

[Too Tall]

Yeah, yeah. Unscrew them and coat the threads liberally with beeswax.

[dbrk]

Russ,
Send me a PM or email and I'll send you a brand spankin' new cup of beeswax for those threads.

make my own, well, the bees do,

dbrk
I'm editing my own original post here to add an atta'boy to the jerk's comment about the head-on concept to begin with. Whatta'loada'crap they are, from beginning to end. First, they don't work properly unless they are done perfectly (and btw what happened to the original brass ones?); second, they reduce options (yes, I know the vast majority won't even consider dt shifters anymore but some of us do...); third, on a CSi or other lugged bike they perfectly spoil a perfectly beautiful lug; and last, I think they are yet another instance of an "improvement" that isn't. One more thing: the jerk is right (always) even when I am wrong...

[Jeff N.]

They are of a very simple design that can/do allow for that type of thing to happen now and then. As you know, most barrels have springs that provide tension that'll prevent unwanted screwing or un-screwing. With Moots and Holland, a better example, the cable barrel bosses have notches machined into them that allow for indexed adjustments to be made, thereby completely preventing the problem that you are having. Why Serottas aren't that way is anybodys guess. So try the bees wax as previously suggested. Or look for a couple of small springs that'll work with the Serottas perhaps. Jeff N.

[Needs Help]

You'd think with how expensive the frames are Serotta could get those details correct. I've tried turning those head ons in a bike shop, and I found it nearly impossible. I thought to myself: "self, what a horrible design."

Will Serotta put different head ons on the bike if requested?

[jerk]

you know what would get those details correct? down tube braze ons....head-ons, yet another stupid invention that works worse than the one it replaced...campy and shimano down tube cable bosses are wondeful....your cables don't scratch your paint...your bike shifts fine and all are happy....head-ons suck particularly on smaller campy equipped bikes where they make the bike impossible to set up properly....

[Needs Help]

down tube braze ons....head-ons, yet another stupid invention that works worse than the one it replaced

I assumed the tubes were getting so light and thin, they thought better of putting them on the downtubes. Heck, why wouldn't some locktite work?

[Russ]

Originally posted by Needs Help
[i].....why wouldn't some locktite work?

NH,

I think Locktite will "lock" the screw in one place! I don't think it is a good idea...

[Needs Help]

uhhhhmmm...you missed the point.

[victoryfactory]

Russ;

I had the same problem with my 2003 Concours. I couldn't ride 20 miles without readjusting the headons. It drove me nuts. When I called Serotta, they (no names) gave me several useless suggestions including:

"hmm I never heard that before" (possibly a misinformed employee)
"did you try scewing them all the way in and using the adjuster at the rear deraileur" (YIKES!)
"why don't you try Loctite" (DOUBLE YIKES!)
"It must be the geometry of your particular frame" (TRIPLE YIKES!)
" This happens sometimes because of the thread pitch on the headons" (HMM.. we may be getting warm here)

Finally, after 3 calls, I got someone on the phone who admitted that he had heard of this problem, and they were working on a redesign (presumably for '04 models)

As Needshelp mentioned, this is totally unacceptable on a 3K bike frame. Don't give me any beeswax crap, I'm not going there.

As I had just ordered my new Legend I was concerned that this be fixed, I was told by Todd (I'm not sure if he still is there) that although the new design was still provisional, because of my concern, he would have it put on my new frame. I asked for the traditional springs to be provided as well.

Well, the frame was delivered in Oct. 03 and the good news is the problem is totally solved. On inspection though, the headons look to be virtually the same design as before, and it may be the addition of the spring that fixed it.

For me, this was a very interesting episode, It shows, I think, the way a well meaning maufacturer handles a problem. The entire arc is there, inital denial, misguided suggestions by uninformed employees, honest concern, and after the problem was presumably recognised and accepted by the designers,an extrordinary promise to fix the situation on my new frame.

Conclusion:

My point is that stuff like this happens. Misinformed employees need to be brought up to speed, the process takes time. It's the way the manufacturer deals with the problems that matters. I have no doubt that Serotta will fix this issue (if they haven't already done so) I consider it a rare privilege to be a customer of such a unique company that lets us in on this kind of exchange. I don't know of any other large bike company that has created this kind of partnership with their customers. And although I'm not a flag waver by nature, I am proud to have the Serotta name on my downtube.
Because it represents the right way to do business.


Victory Factory, hopefully not banned for life after this tirade.

[Jeff N.]

Along with a new design for cable stops/barrel adjusters, they need to find some more talented welders like the ones at Seven or (this might be asking too much) MOOTS. Those head-ons (hard-ons?) are very sloppily applied IMO, especially...as has been pointed out...for a frame of this price range. Attention to detail, people. ATTENTION TO DETAIL!!! Jeff N.

[Jeff N.]

With Seven, they'll put the bosses anywhere you want them. With my Axiom, I requested them to be put on the head-tube instead on high on the downtube where they normally are for the Axiom. No problemo! Done!
Note to Jerk: Use Dura Ace with the Head-ons and you won't have that problem. Head-tube cable adjusters in general, IMO, were created with DA in mind.Not Campy, thats for sure. Thats why Seven specs them high up on the down-tube, to allow for both groups to work fine with them. But you have the choice. BTW, I've had no loosening problems with my Legend Ti head-ons, poor design notwithstanding. Jeff N.

[Ahneida Ride]

My 2002 Legend has the Spring loaded Silver headons.
No problemo. But i would have perfered the older brass
units.

If it ain't broke, Don't fix it.

[Ahneida Ride]

Beeswax, Schmeezwax.

Headons should work. I'd be rather upset !

[bulliedawg]

I have headons with the brass barrels and they're worse than useless. Can't turn them worth a crap.

[Jeff N.]

As I stated earlier, it all boils down to an alarming lack of attention to detail. There simply can be no other explanation. Jeff N.

[jpw]

I would be incandescent after expecting a state of the art product.

[FierteTi52]

The problem I have with the adjusters is, when you make an adjustment the cable housing rotates along with it. The tension from the twisted housing then turns the adjuster back to it's original postion.
Jeff

[Jeff N.]

The one sure strength that Serotta has going for it is a big one: RIDE QUALITY. It is simply the best. But an improvement in other areas (consistently perfect welds...and I mean PERFECT...the kind where it doesn't look like the welder was in a hurry to get on his lunch break..... better designed head-ons, etc.)is long overdue in my opinion. And I suspect they may be painfully aware of it. JN

[e-RICHIE]

"The problem I have with the adjusters is, when you make an adjustment the cable housing rotates along with it. The tension from the twisted housing then turns the adjuster back to it's original postion."




that's because it's under load.
you should never turn the cable casing unless
you're on the bottom cog. if you must do other-
wise, then turn barrel with one hand while the
other hand is clapping - oops, i meant while the
other hand holds the casing in your thumb & forefinger.

e-RICHIE

ps

:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Russ]

Originally posted by FierteTi52
The problem I have with the adjusters is, when you make an adjustment the cable housing rotates along with it....

I use Nokon or IRD cables, these cables definitelly do not rotate with the head-ons! It's the freaking head-on the problem...

[Russ]

Originally posted by Jeff N.
As I stated earlier, it all boils down to an alarming lack of attention to detail....

Another thing that comes to mind is perhaps the lack of collaboration among bike industry companies. I figure, there must be someone out there making decent head-ons, is there someone? If so, why does Serotta not work with this person/company and inprove their stuff?

IMO, sometimes I think many people/companies in the bike industry (I am sure other industries as well) are too consumed in their own products and do not bother to look around....

"No one is making this stuff better than us" is a sentence I've heard way too many times in the bike industry!

[victoryfactory]

e-RICHIE and FierteTi52;
Trust me, the cables were not rotating, the threads on the headon bolts were just screwing into the sockets while riding. I think the pitch of the screw needs to be changed or maybe an indexed notch setup like JeffN mentioned.

I also agree with Jeff that the welding of the headons is ugly and should be better on a frame of this level. I hope someone is working on this.
vf

[Jeff N.]

The indexed set-up is nothing new. But it is the best and I can't tell you why Serotta hasn't embraced this concept long ago. Too costly perhaps? I mean, someboby (or some CNC machine) DOES have to machine the bosses. Time is money, right? Don't wanna cut into those profits, now do we? Jeff N.

[e-RICHIE]

vic

i was replying to fierte's issue.
your's thread themselves while in
use?! wierd.

e-RICHIE

ps

???
???
???

[victoryfactory]

e-RICHIE;
Yep, it was so wierd that at first, the guys at Serotta couldn't believe it. It took me a couple of weeks to zero in on the actual problem. At first, I assumed it was the new cables "stretching" that caused the rear Deraileur to keep going out of whack. then I went through all the usual stuff - chain, cassette, etc. Finally I placed a red mark with a sharpie on the barrel of the headon and there it was, the damn thing was screwing in a full turn about every 20 min. of riding.
The problem was not as bad on the front deraileur, but it was there too. My addition of springs under the screws (which for some reason Serotta was not supplying with this headon design, improved the problem about 90 percent.

VF

Just got back from a 2-1/2 hour ride. Cold, but good. The snot was flowing like niagra falls. I just wanted you all to know that I actually do enjoy ridng when I'm not complaining.

[e-RICHIE]

"Finally I placed a red mark with a sharpie on the barrel of the headon and there it was, the damn thing was screwing in a full turn about every 20 min. of riding."



no bigee.
why not turn around every 20 minutes?
that should keep the problem in check.

e-RICHIE

ps

:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Peter]

Yeah; Serotta should've just copied Shimano's indexed design because the problem doesn't exist with theirs. Is there any reason why Serotta's head-ons couldn't take a little groove filed in the ends then adapted to fit Shimano's adjusting screws?

Nevertheless, YOU'RE here and IT'S now. Don't listen to the naysayers; use Loctite. Use the blue variety, #242. Let it dry then break the bond before your first ride. You may have to initiate things with the grippy jaws of a pair of pliers, but once freed, there might be enough friction from Loctite material left in the threads that it might do the job for you. Shimano does it with their dual pivot brake centering bolts all the time, and I did it with an American Classic seatpost; it works!. If you're 'fraid of bringing pliers so close to your frame, then lay some duct tape down before you go to work.

Another option would be a few wraps of Teflon tape around the threads.

I have an alternative to e-RICHIE's method of turning those adjusters. Shift the bike to a smaller cog but don't turn the pedals to complete the shift. This induces a good chunk of slack in the cable so the barrel adjuster turns freely while the cable should not.


e-RICHIE: What's in the design of your head lug/head-on that you don't have such a problem?

[e-RICHIE]

peter-issimo wrote:
"I have an alternative to e-RICHIE's method of turning those adjusters. Shift the bike to a smaller cog but don't turn the pedals to complete the shift. This induces a little slack in the cable so the barrel adjuster turns freely while the cable should not."
i said that the problem was possibly caused by
adjusting while under load. i suggested dropping
the chain into the bottom cog. that was 4? posts
ago.

and this too:
"e-RICHIE: What's in the design of your head lug/head-on that you don't have such a problem?"
sorry. not here.

e-RICHIE

ps

:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

[Needs Help]

I agree with Jeff N. and vicotryfactory: I can't believe how ugly the headon welds are. I was shocked when I first held an Ottrott frame in my hands. Maybe all bikes have similarly ugly welds there and the bare ti is more revealing?

As for the welds on Serottas, I've read about the welds, and Jeff N. is being a little misleading. As I'm sure many people already know: it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the welder's skill. Instead, it has to do with the philosophy of making the welds. There are single pass and double pass welds, and a double pass weld is always going to be smoother if made by a skilled welder. You may not agree with the philosophy behind single pass welds--i.e. less heat damage--but to claim Serotta doesn't have skilled welders may be totally false. Also, I'm sure some, maybe MOOTS?, sand their welds, which I'm sure also weakens the weld.

Also, what a juvenile name: "headons". Pretty pathetic. I wouldn't be surprised if whoever came up with that name also lobbied to have the HT extension renamed.

[Jeff N.]

The Paradox is that Serotta uses double pass. I called and they told me they did. So go figure! Many think they use single pass. I know I did. Jeff N.

[Needs Help]

:eek: :confused: :(

Is that true? Was that a misinformed employee?

Hey, Jeff N.: Do you know if Seven's new custom fork can be made with different steerer lengths, e.g. somthing like 380mm?

[DWF]

Originally posted by Needs Help

As I'm sure many people already know: it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the welder's skill. Instead, it has to do with the philosophy of making the welds. There are single pass and double pass welds, and a double pass weld is always going to be smoother if made by a skilled welder. You may not agree with the philosophy behind single pass welds--i.e. less heat damage--but to claim Serotta doesn't have skilled welders may be totally false. Also, I'm sure some, maybe MOOTS?, sand their welds, which I'm sure also weakens the weld.

I think it's fairly obvious that Serotta has highly skilled welders. Single vs. double pass has nothing to do with it. The idea behind a double pass weld is that the first pass is a fusion weld, i.e., no filler material is added, you're simply fusing the joint together by robbing material from the parent metal. This technique can facilitate full penetration and gives you an even "trough" to lay your cover filler pass over but it's not necessary. For me and my toasty eyes, I prefer not to do a fusion pass on ti as I can follow the joint better when the miter is in sharp relief so I get better results with a single pass.

In Serotta's defense on the head tube cable stops, they're typically very small and when welding small parts it's always a debate of adding filler metal or not, especially if you only have one size of filler metal handy. Folks generally only fusion weld small parts on like bottle bosses, etc., but due to the shape of a lot of the headtube cable stops, a fusion pass will result in unacceptable undercut. So, you add filler metal and if you use the same size filler rod as you do on the tube joints, you end up applying too much. Makes it a little bumpy. Been there, done that.

Moots does not sand their welds. Sanding welds on Ti & steel is generally a bad idea: the material is too hard, the consequences of a mistake too severe, and it would be very time consuming. Done properly, it would not weaken the joint but the smart money is on not doing it.

[Needs Help]

Triple pass welds? I thought I read somewhere that another pass over the filler material smoothed it out.

Ok DWF, since I have your ear, it just so happens I need some expert welding advice. I have a fairly expensive chair made out of tubing, and one tube running under the front edge of the seat cushion broke at the weld with one of the legs. It's 1" tubing. Can I fix that? Any cheap way of getting that re-welded?

[Jeff N.]

Needs Help: I don't know if Seven's forks are available with extra long steerer tubes. Give them a call.
I do know that Reynolds has their Ouzo Pro with a steerer at 350mm or so. Give them a call, you can order direct. Jeff N.

[Smiley]

Damn DWF are you some kind of welding metalurgist or something. I'd want you on my team on Junk Yard Wars any time. Good stuff keep it up please.

[Needs Help]

In this article about how Litespeeds are built:

http://www.dirtragmag.com/articles/article.php?ID=293&category=features

Litespeed calls the initial joining of the tubes "tack welding". Litespeed calls the final welding using filler material either "single pass" or "double pass" welding. According to the article, Litespeeds get single pass welds and Merlins get double pass welds--which makes the Merlin welds look prettier.

[Serotta PETE]

What has Serotta said about the adjusters coming out or adjustment?

I know nothing about single/double/triple pass welds but everytime I have called Lori, Kelly, Ben or my shop CYCLESPORT, I had had my questions answered. I have never had a problem with adjustment not does the welds on my Ottrott look bad.

Can I suggest that you call Serotta and see what they say about adjusters,,,or if welds are ugly send them a picture so that they can look at them?

[Needs Help]

I went to see for myself how the Moots, Seven, and Serotta welds stacked up against each other. First up was the Moots. No sanding there. Perfect welds. Enough said. The bar had been set.

Then, I looked at a Seven. The ridges between beads were a little higher, but the same perfect swirls continued all around the weld. Brilliant!

Finally, I looked at a Serotta. It was matte ti, so it looked a lot like the Moots bike I looked at. Ahhhah! The same perfect minimalist swirls like the Moots.....but...but....wait...as my eyes traced the path of the weld, the perfect swirls were interupted by unsightly LUMPS! Eggggaaad!!

#1 Moots
#2 Seven
#6? Serotta

However, if the differences are due to single pass v. double pass welds, the computer rankings MUST be redone.

[Jeff N.]

I called Serotta again today. I asked if Serotta welders used single pass or double. He didn't know (?) and put me on hold. He then came back after a few minutes and said, "They do double pass welds, but also some single pass, depending on the situation". Depending on the situation? Hmmm...whatever...
Anyway, if you're comparing the welds of Serotta with Seven and Moots, don't stop there. Compare them with Merlin. Litespeed. Even Airborne. Look particularly at the BB cluster. Draw you're own conclusions.
I feel like I've run this subject into the ground. Suffice it to say, that I expect any custom Ti frame that I spend megabucks on to have extremely high quality welds, both in penetration and aesthetics, whatever "pass" method is used. And I don't think thats being too picky or unreasonable. And when the money is spent, and the frame arrives, and said weld quality is less than what I expect, on ANY part of the frame, I become more than a little disappointed. But I can...and do...look past that if the ride quality is superior. And that is what I've done. End of rant. Jeff N.

[vaxn8r]

Needs Help

that was a great reference article.

I find it fascinating that the BB on a Litespeed starts as a solid block and is bored out while the Merlin's BB starts life as a tube....more what I'd have expected.

Anyway, great read and thanks to all on this thread that added enlightenment.

[Needs Help]

Another thing I learned: the Seven dealer said Seven's "Ultra Butting" has up to 13 changes in thickness per tube. I was very impressed by the Seven Elium, which looks very much like the Ottrott and much better than the Seven Odonata. Seven's custom forks are interesting too. They look like they are aluminum with black powder coated paint, but they are carbon. I couldn't see a seam or anything of the kind visible on the outside of the fork.

[Ahneida Ride]

During the recent factory tour, I spoke with the
Gentleman who welded my frame. He uses Single pass.

And I must add that the welds are excellent. Superior
to the one Seven frame that I closely examined.

I am quite satisfied with the quality of the welds.

[jpw]

Well, there must be more than one welder at Serotta.

What i saw at my local dealer recently were not top notch state of the art welds. Moots are better.

This has nothing to do with structural integrity or strength, but just superficial looks.

[Russ]

Originally posted by Russ
Have any of you had this problem with the new HO? How have you solved it?

Well, I called Serotta yesterday and the person that answered the phone suggested I use Loctite #222 (Purple). I went to the Home Depot and they told me that this product is no longer made. They said, the BLUE Medium Strenght Loctite will do....

So, what's best/safer bee's wax or this blue Loctite?

[Hap]

Interesting thread.... Have Ottrot ST on order due to ship 26 Mar. Queried my LBS on the HO matter...they say they have not experienced any HO problems with any recent Serotta's they have recently built up, including Ottrots.

[Serotta PETE]

Either would work.....Bee's wax would allow to make adjustment at some later time and still have the benefit. (I am not sure if loctite would need to be re-applied......(SPOKES, What is your suggestion??)

[Needs Help]

And when the money is spent, and the frame arrives, and said weld quality is less than what I expect, on ANY part of the frame, I become more than a little disappointed.

That jogged an old memory. When I wanted to buy my first road frame, Serotta was on my list. The extra $500 for custom fitting intrigued me, but it was pushing my price range, so I went and looked at an Atlanta(?), or whatever their lowest model was at the time, and I remember being apalled at the sight of the welds--they were painted and I noticed them!

lol. I think welds don't matter until you see a Moots.


Originally posted by Hap
Interesting thread.... Have Ottrot ST on order due to ship 26 Mar. Queried my LBS on the HO matter...they say they have not experienced any HO problems with any recent Serotta's they have recently built up, including Ottrots.

My guess is that when your dealer builds up the bikes, they aren't messing around with the HO's--the adjustment for the derailleurs is done with the derailleur adjustment screws, and the customers aren't ever using them or don't report the problem, chalking it up to bad design.

[Tom]

Soon after I got my new bike, I was fiddling with the head-on barrel adjusters because the cables were settling in and shifts weren't completely silent any more. When I looked up I realized I was fiddling with them on a 45mph descent going into an intersection and the stop sign was about fifty feet away.

I made a mental note not to do that again.

[Too Tall]

Russ, I had the same issue and have been happy with beeswax. Just clean up the threads with steel wool and "saw" the beeswax with the headson threads and than roll the wax into the threads with heat and pressure from your fingers. The wax will remain tacky and not deteriorate for a long time permitting repeated readjustments. Loktite red/blue/purple/green are single use. Break the bond once and it needs to be reapplied. B the B.

[das]

Just got a 2004 Legend Ti. The head-on adjusters it has have springs. But, I must admit that I like original 2004 head-on adjusters better. They seem to occupy less space and look cleaner. I never had a problem with original version, but I keep them screwed in all the way and make any needed adjustments at the derailleur, which I hardly ever have to do. Seems once adjusted properly I don't have to touch it again till I do some kind of cable maintenance.