Talk to me about Boston, MA

[45K10]

So the wife may have a great career opportunity in the Boston area, specifically north of the city in Nahant.

I really like were we are living now and I am not too stoked about possibly moving so far north., so give me some of the highlights of the Boston area cycling and non-cycling related.

I find myself riding more in the woods these days than on the road so advice on best locations for living close to MTB trails would also be much appreciated.

Thanks
C

[sandyrs]

I live in Somerville so everything I know except Blue Hills is north of the city.

If work's in Nahant, then living in Winchester, Stoneham, Medford, Woburn, Arlington, etc. will allow a short commute and very easy access to the Fells- a huge wooded area rife with trails ranging from fire road to rock garden. With a car, you can get to lots more trails (Lowell-Dracut, Landlocked, Harold Parker State Forest, Willowdale, etc.) in under half an hour.

I'm more of a road/cx type and the area northwest of the city- Lexington, Concord, Carlisle, Acton, etc.- has great riding if you're looking for something on the pavement. For longer days, heading out toward Mt. Wachusett is a nice option, as is going north into New Hampshire.

There are tons more trails around us that someone with more of an off-road background can detail, but in short, don't let the idea of a lack of cycling opportunities deter you from moving here. There's a huge cycling community and the winter really isn't that bad.

Feel free to PM me, too.

[Ken Robb]

I don't know beans about Boston. Groan. Sorry. :)

[Ti Designs]

Nahant is nice, getting to Nahant sucks. It's off the lynnway, which is about as much fun to ride on as getting a root canal, but there's only one way on or off. To make matters even better, that one road is limited access, so you have to ride the parking lot which has lots of broken glass... If you don't mind putting your bike on the car, or in the car, it's close to a lot of decent cycling destinations. The thing that makes the Boston area great for cycling isn't the roads or the mountains or the perfect weather, it's the cycling community. Perhaps it's because the roads are so bad or the winters are cold or the drivers are...

If you find yourself on the north shore with a road bike, let me know. I have no sense of direction, so every ride is an adventure!

[MattTuck]

Cost of living in the North East is much higher than in the South. I'd think the salary delta between her current job and the new one would have to be fairly significant to maintain a similar standard of living. I'm sure there are online calculators to analyze this.

After living growing up outside of Boston for my whole life, and then in Boston for 4 years (ok, actually cambridge) I am quite happy to be living in the woods of NH. If you do move, you can come visit me and ride some beautiful roads, though the pavement is crappy.

[seanile]

Cost of living in the North East is much higher than in the South. I'd think the salary delta between her current job and the new one would have to be fairly significant to maintain a similar standard of living. I'm sure there are online calculators to analyze this.How Far Your Paycheck Goes, In 356 U.S. Cities (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/05/20/313131559/how-far-your-paycheck-goes-in-356-u-s-cities)

[cderalow]

assuming her wages are adjusted to standard of living conditions, your biggest fear should be learning to listen to how fast and funny people up there can talk.

having grown up near boston and in eastern mass, and then moved south as an adult...


it's a culture shock more than anything else.

[merlinmurph]

Her job is actually in Nahant? Nahant has to be 99% residential. It's a very nice place to be and live as it's on the water. Coming and going to Nahant can be a royal PITA - a map will tell you all you need to know.

I wouldn't even think of riding my road bike around there, it's a pretty crazy area, but I'm also spoiled living in the I-495 area out west. Lynn Woods is a big mtb area and fairly close but still need a car.

As mentioned above, price of housing may be a shock depending on what you're used to and may be looking for. Lynn is a city that's seen better days, Swampscott and Marblehead are more upscale - all have all ranges of prices.

You better like winter.... ;-)

[MattTuck]

One other thing to consider, is Nahant is fairly close to Logan Airport, and you're likely to get some plane noise if you're living there. I can't attest to whether it is really disruptive, but atleast be aware of it.

[FlashUNC]

I lived for a short time in Boston in the North End. I have a deep love for the city. Really outstanding place. But first, some negatives:

The winter weather is awful. As a North Carolina native moving up there right after school, I wasn't fully prepared for how terrible winter can truly get.

And the cost of living is ridiculous. (Says the guy now in the Bay Area, I know, do as I say...) But you'll need to really sort out that if the cost of living doesn't fully wash, that the quality of life in Boston is what you want.

Now, the good stuff:

I found living in the city I could get by on a T pass and no car. That's huge in my book. But if you're in the burbs...

The food. My God the food. Real lobster rolls. Clam chowder as God intended. Tiramisu like you wouldn't believe from North End bakeries. Heck, BREAD from North End bakeries. The food is fantastic.

Boston is far more cosmopolitan than Winston-Salem (and I say this as a kid who grew up outside Greensboro). There'll be far more to do and see. New York City is a short train ride, and you've got the rest of New England a stone's throw away. Go do candle pin bowling in Alewife and get thrown out when one of your buddies gets too drunk and makes a fool of himself.

Just buy a really good winter coat. And a mythical Norse hammer to fight Frost Giants. I'm only half kidding about the second one.

[quattro]

Forget the cycling, do you like cold, cold and cold weather from end of November until April, maybe some snow (first storm coming tomorrow, mostly rain near Boston), sleet, black ice, frozen pipes, high cost of heating just to name a few of then joys of living in Mass. or any cold environment. I have lived in Mass. and RI my entire life and don't know why I stay, I hate winter. So if you have never lived in a colder climate than NC, you should spend a week or two in Nahant in January/February before making a decision. If I didn't have family ties and job concerns I'd move to a warm climate state and I'd be gone tomorrow!

In the summer there are lots of great places to ride, mountain bikes and road bikes alike.

[45K10]

Her job is actually in Nahant? Nahant has to be 99% residential. It's a very nice place to be and live as it's on the water. Coming and going to Nahant can be a royal PITA - a map will tell you all you need to know.

I wouldn't even think of riding my road bike around there, it's a pretty crazy area, but I'm also spoiled living in the I-495 area out west. Lynn Woods is a big mtb area and fairly close but still need a car.

As mentioned above, price of housing may be a shock depending on what you're used to and may be looking for. Lynn is a city that's seen better days, Swampscott and Marblehead are more upscale - all have all ranges of prices.

You better like winter.... ;-)

Yeah there is a marine lab in Nahant. She would spend most of her time working at the marine lab and commuting into town 2-3 times a week depending on her teaching load. I am okay with winter we lived in Vancouver, BC prior to moving to NC and I grew up in Nebraska so the cold doesn't bother me too much. I just like the area where we are at now, cycling is great and the people are super nice. We just had a baby though and the schools in NC aren't great. I think Mass public schools are ranked number one if I am not mistaken?

Great insights keep 'em coming!

[merlinmurph]

I am okay with winter we lived in Vancouver, BC prior to moving to NC and I grew up in Nebraska so the cold doesn't bother me too much.

Ahem, with all due respect, Vancouver winter is more like NC winter than a Boston winter. Seriously.

Do you know what kind of living you want? City? Burbs? You have a few choices, just depends on how much you want to spend. Schools are managed by individual towns (not counties, etc) so they can vary greatly by town.

Good luck with your decision. These types of decisions are always tough but it's also a good choice to have.

[old fat man]

I just moved to Connecticut after 12 years in Boston (Jamaica Plain and Brookline). I am happy to go back once a month or so for work, but I have no desire to move back there.

We have two young boys and our biggest motivation for moving was the poor school system in the city of Boston, and the fact that anywhere that had good schools was way out of reach financially to live (and I earn a respectable salary by Boston standards) unless we moved closer to 495. At that point it made no sense to be "near" Boston since you're still an hour away from the city, not able to use the T system (commuter rail doesn't count), and still dealing with the traffic frustrations of greater Boston.

Living in Boston was great, until we added kids to the mix and then the costs became unmanageable. Most of the towns mentioned (Winchester, Stoneham, Arlington, etc.) have better public schools than the city of Boston, but buying a 3 bedroom house or even condo is going to be at least $400k, and that's for maybe 1400 square feet. Even renting is likely over $2k a month.

Also, even though I had great riding buddies, it was a major chore to get out on the mtb unless I could ride to the destination. Traffic is almost always present. Forget about driving from Winchester to Lynn Woods on a weeknight after work. Riding to the ride is very doable though, and most drivers in Boston are used to seeing cyclists, so even if they hate us, they are not as unaware as what I've experienced riding in North Carolina, Nebraska, Iowa, etc.

In summary, I wouldn't personally choose to move back to Boston at this stage in my life. Prior to kids it was great, and maybe when kids are grown up, I'd consider going back, but with a young family and not being a millionaire, no thanks.

[merckx]

Here is what I know about Boston; it is the destination of the 2024 Olympic games.........

[sandyrs]

Here is what I know about Boston; it is the destination of the 2015 Olympic games.........

Not sure what to make of this one.

[Climb01742]

Before you decide, if you can, come up to look at houses and see what your real estate budget buys you. It certainly varies by town, but get a sense of how much house you can buy here. Prices are rising here quickly. Between winter and houses prices, living here can be sobering.

On the other side, riding here between April and November is gorgeous.

[seanile]

keep in mind that living on the east side of the mystic/bay, boston will be more or less inaccessible by bike unless you take the blue line off-hours or ride many miles west around everett/revere (you dont want to ride through there).

public transit from living in somerville/cambridge to nahant would require going inbound to north station and transferring outbound, then somehow getting to the marine lab. so she'll need a car..

medford or northern somerville would be my recommendation.

[sparky33]

Yeah there is a marine lab in Nahant. She would spend most of her time working at the marine lab and commuting into town 2-3 times a week depending on her teaching load. I am okay with winter we lived in Vancouver, BC prior to moving to NC and I grew up in Nebraska so the cold doesn't bother me too much. I just like the area where we are at now, cycling is great and the people are super nice. We just had a baby though and the schools in NC aren't great. I think Mass public schools are ranked number one if I am not mistaken?



Great insights keep 'em coming!


Working at NU marine lab in Nahant sounds rad. Not many easy commuting options though. maybe OK outside of rush hour.

fwiw Williams College campus in Mystic CT is also looking for a marine biology assistant prof....teaching mostly.

The Fells is an oasis of sorts.
Most good riding lies outside of 128/95 loop, but there is very good living to be had within. Good schools equals expensive... get what you pay for. Boston public system is tricky to get right.

[Ken Robb]

When I had real estate clients move from Boston to San Diego they couldn't get over how much cheaper taxes were here. When I had clients move back east they were often shocked by taxes and the cost of heating, cooling, and maintaining a home so be sure to analyze overall housing costs not just purchase prices.

[druptight]

I wouldn't even think of riding my road bike around there, it's a pretty crazy area, but I'm also spoiled living in the I-495 area out west. Lynn Woods is a big mtb area and fairly close but still need a car.

I live in Melrose - basically right on the Fells, and it's only an 11 mile ride to Nahant, I've done it a few times. It's certainly not the nicest or most quaint riding - and in the summer I was slightly concerned for my life riding through Lynn in spandex, but it's not like riding is impossible. You can ride north from Nahant on your road bike and be on nicer, quieter roads within 10ish miles.

Nahant itself is pretty nice but I'd definitely try to live in Marblehead or Swampscott. Or you could live more inland in Wakefield/Melrose which would be more conducive to commuting into town probably without making the commute to Nahant too much of a nightmare. I commute by bike 10 miles from Melrose to downtown and it's far more enjoyable than sitting in traffic in a car which takes about the same amount of time - or taking the T which takes longer.

North shore ain't the worst.

[seanile]

admire the traffic @ 4:30 on a friday..

http://i.imgur.com/f7SEl8b.png

[sparky33]

Nahant itself is pretty nice but I'd definitely try to live in Marblehead or Swampscott. Or you could live more inland in Wakefield/Melrose which would be more conducive to commuting into town probably without making the commute to Nahant too much of a nightmare. I commute by bike 10 miles from Melrose to downtown and it's far more enjoyable than sitting in traffic in a car which takes about the same amount of time - or taking the T which takes longer.

North shore ain't the worst.

This ^^ is good stuff, on the mark.
North shore is quite good, especially if that's where your job and daily life is centered.
You like the water? Look no further. Beaches, boating, etc.
Cycling up that way (Essex county) is darn good too.

also, if you are into racing cx, there is good racing within a short drive nearly every weekend from September on. Though seeing you just had a baby, I'm thinking that's not on your radar right now.

[velomonkey]

fwiw Williams College campus in Mystic CT is also looking for a marine biology assistant prof....teaching mostly.



If this is something she is considering . . . I am your huckleberry. Mystic - 8 months of the best riding anywhere in the US. 2 months of absolute hell and 2 months of bland, grey 40 degree days.

Still, we moved back from DC - and I get people all the time saying "I'd sell it all to be here."

[joshbd]

I grew up in the Boston burbs, and bought a condo in somerville about 2 years ago. So, I can attest to the exorbitant housing costs (and rising). However, one of the biggest perks is that it's only about 2 miles to the Fells, which is a great place to mountain bike. Good mix of open fire roads and technical single track. I go biking there with the dog at least once a week in the summer and haven't got bored yet.

However, I am already getting the push for a "family sized" house and exclusively looking North Shore. Particularly Beverly, Hamilton and Wenham. Easy commuter train into the city, which is a huge plus. Beverly has a decent little downtown with bars/restaurants, while the shared school district of Hamilton / wenham is quite good, if that's a factor.

[pinkshogun]

URI...Univ. of Rhode Island has a big marine/oceanography/watery stuff program located in the southern end of the state...nice riding near the ocean or head inland to see trees, farms, and ruralness

[1centaur]

Lynn has gangs and crime and Swampscott (very high property taxes) is where they go to rob houses. Marblehead is physically isolated and the commute gets very tiresome. Very overpriced for its minor charms.

Watch out for the assertion of good schools in Mass. My son went to what was once listed as a top 10 public school in Mass and it sucked, IMO. Really study average SAT scores and particularly Ivy acceptance rates if looking at high schools; state achievement tests if looking elementary. Do not believe anybody saying anything about how great their schools are, go by the data. But out in the 'burbs they are pretty safe.

You really have to figure out how much time and hassle you and your wife are willing to endure in your commute, presumably by car, before we can narrow down neighborhoods for you. I second the endorsement of Hamilton/Wenham. Great road cycling connections to all that is desirable (including NH) and rideable to MTB, good mix of expensive and affordable real estate, and its own train station (parking for commutes at local stations is tough except for early birds). The drive to Nahant is not many miles, but I won't say it's a breeze (you'd learn short cuts). Picturesque town.

[pbarry]

URI...Univ. of Rhode Island has a big marine/oceanography/watery stuff program located in the southern end of the state...nice riding near the ocean or head inland to see trees, farms, and ruralness

Yep, URI and Woods Hole are tops in their field. Great riding and lower cost of living, that far south of Boston.

[wc1934]

This ^^ is good stuff, on the mark.
North shore is quite good, especially if that's where your job and daily life is centered.
You like the water? Look no further. Beaches, boating, etc.
Cycling up that way (Essex county) is darn good too.

also, if you are into racing cx, there is good racing within a short drive nearly every weekend from September on. Though seeing you just had a baby, I'm thinking that's not on your radar right now.

This.
There are some nice communities on the north shore - decent schools systems (though they do vary), beaches up north Singing beach, Good Harbor etc), and close enough to Boston to take advantage of the city - Another Sox convert - Yeah!

[jerk]

i grew up in nahant. i lived there for years and still own a house there and my folks live there. it's a great little town. email me with any questions.

it's the safest town in the world. no one in the whole town locks their doors. don't worry about lynn....it's not dangerous- it just sucks.

email me with any questions! nahant doesn't have any jobs other than i guess the elementary school and other town jobs like police and fire...

what's she doing?

craig.gaulzetti atatatatat gmail

c

[rounder]

.

[schwa86]

Moved here after college about 30 years ago and basically haven't left. Housing is expensive, but kind of depends on what you feel you need. I think its a pretty manageable city -- it has lots of established town centers/neighborhoods -- to me it doesn't feel as much like urban sprawl except maybe on the south shore. There is decent arts, music, cultural vibrancy because of all the universities. I think the med/tech/ed based economy has been somewhat resilient relative to other parts of the country. Political, and generally liberal, but probably not as extreme as made out to be on Fox news. People can be a little aloof (eg 30 years in I am still not from here) but not unfriendly. Definitely not as fast paced as the NYCs of the world.

I like being a little west of the city for the cycling -- easy to get out pretty quickly into some really nice riding (Sudbury/Concord/etc) or south to Dover/Sherborn area. I would say there are a lot of cyclists -- its a good scene, with some good shops, improving infrastructure, and well-established membership orgs (eg check out Charles River Wheelmen) that is easy to connect to.

I think the weather is dependent on what you like -- winter is colder but summer is pretty bearable, and fall can be truly glorious. Lots of really accessible stuff (Maine coast, White Mountains, etc) if you are in to that kind of thing.

I'd be more inclined to take more advantage of the city than live in Nahant as others have said.

[buddybikes]

Live up toward Salem, Beverly area, should be commutable, can jump on the train if going into the city. Riding out of there is fine heading north west, towards Hamilton. Basically rich horse country.

Yes expensive, snowing now. Did do a ride yesterday just layer up.

[45K10]

Awesome stuff guys
I appreciate all of the advice
Thanks
C


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[Climb01742]

Small suggestion: avoid 128 as part of your commute if you can. Any drive on 128 can be either 15 mins or an hour and a half.

[1centaur]

Prime time commutes to and from Boston are really bad, almost LA-like. I am 30 miles north, and it's an hour in the morning leaving at 6am and much worse at 7am; leave at 9am and I'd be fine. Coming home it's 15 minutes more because fewer people stagger their leaving time, and that's a good day. Miles of 15 mph stop and go are common. And I always say traffic is like water, it finds its level. The wisdom of crowds will balance out the options; there are no smart short-cuts when the commuting load is that high.

128 in the morning and afternoon commutes is a soul-sucker.

As in most cases, reverse commutes are a breeze, so if one were going south out of Nahant in the afternoon it would be quick.

I'll make a special note about Salem, since it's in the Nahant area: I spent some time going often from my house in the burbs to my business partner's house in Swampscott and the route was through Salem. I came to loathe what felt like a bad video game with a driving theme. Tons of non-stop-lighted side streets onto the main arteries, which are crowded and very herky jerky, have trained the locals to jump into traffic at the slightest opening, making the whole experience frustrating/annoying, basically every time. My wife noted when we arrived in the area that Massachusetts drivers, far more than in California, will drive out into your path while not looking at you, as if that bestows on them a magic shield. They know you are there, but they figure if you see them not looking at you then you will let them go.

The worst thing about living in Hamilton/Wenham and working in Nahant would be the travel through Salem.

[LiveFreeOrDie]

I've been going up to Boston for all life as I have family that lives up there. I also lived in Portland, ME for two years. Boston is one of my favorite cities in the country.

Starting with the bad:
- The winters suck...bad. If you've never lived in a cold climate before (MN, WI, NorthEast, etc) and don't like cold weather, you will not like it. Period. Scraping snow off cars everyday, shoveling snow, etc. Length of winters there: 7 months minimum. Once it starts getting warm there, it starts getting cold.
- The traffic sucks...bad. If you work in the city, live in the city. Commuting in Boston is downright awful. Not only is the traffic bad but the drivers are even worse. If you do move there and have to have a car, get a clunker. No reason to have a nice one there. On top of this, the cost of parking, if you can find it is SHOCKING.
- Condition of roads...bad.
- Cost of living is very expensive. If you're coming from the South, you'll be amazed of the size of square footage you'll be reduced to.

And of course the good:
- The food is amazing and there is plenty of it. Hit the public market on the weekends in the North End. Can never get enough of cannoli.
- Great access to Northern beaches but....make sure you leave early because the traffic is bad coming back.
- Boston is a very walkable city.
- The transit system there is legendary. The "T". If I were to move back there, I wouldn't get a car.
- Always plenty to do there. Music, art, history, etc.

[pinkshogun]

for what we do, weather trumps everything

[Climb01742]

Prime time commutes to and from Boston are really bad, almost LA-like. I am 30 miles north, and it's an hour in the morning leaving at 6am and much worse at 7am; leave at 9am and I'd be fine. Coming home it's 15 minutes more because fewer people stagger their leaving time, and that's a good day. Miles of 15 mph stop and go are common. And I always say traffic is like water, it finds its level. The wisdom of crowds will balance out the options; there are no smart short-cuts when the commuting load is that high.

128 in the morning and afternoon commutes is a soul-sucker.

As in most cases, reverse commutes are a breeze, so if one were going south out of Nahant in the afternoon it would be quick.

I'll make a special note about Salem, since it's in the Nahant area: I spent some time going often from my house in the burbs to my business partner's house in Swampscott and the route was through Salem. I came to loathe what felt like a bad video game with a driving theme. Tons of non-stop-lighted side streets onto the main arteries, which are crowded and very herky jerky, have trained the locals to jump into traffic at the slightest opening, making the whole experience frustrating/annoying, basically every time. My wife noted when we arrived in the area that Massachusetts drivers, far more than in California, will drive out into your path while not looking at you, as if that bestows on them a magic shield. They know you are there, but they figure if you see them not looking at you then you will let them go.

The worst thing about living in Hamilton/Wenham and working in Nahant would be the travel through Salem.

Your juxtaposition of Boston traffic vs LA traffic is dead on. 128 almost makes the 405 look good. But the biggest difference is, as you say, the attitude and behavior of drivers. Mass. drivers are, far too often, self centered a-holes, making bad traffic worse. Whereas LA drivers are, by and large, the exact opposite. People in LA know they live in their cars and adopt an attitude of, let's be civilized about this. They give you exactly the needed space to merge and treat you as a fellow human being making the best of a very crowded highway system. Here, you're an adversary. There, a fellow survivor. Be professional driving out there and you're fine.

[tiretrax]

I am sure she is offered great position, but there are plenty of marine labs around the country. Why not one on the West or Gulf coasts? Better weather, lots of good food and culture, lots of research opportunities. What's her area of interest?

[saf-t]

Having lived here for most of my life, I find the winter comments surprising. Sure it snows (I mean, it's New England, right?), but it isn't anything like living in central Maine, or WI, or much of the midwest as far as cold and snow is concerned. Get appropriate clothing and enjoy it. I'm looking at the (first of the season) snow today and hoping for more so I can pull my snowshoes out of the basement.

If you like to fish, Nahant is a killer striped bass spot.

[45K10]

I am sure she is offered great position, but there are plenty of marine labs around the country. Why not one on the West or Gulf coasts? Better weather, lots of good food and culture, lots of research opportunities. What's her area of interest?


I hear you, but tenor track positions are hard to come by these days you have to go where the work is.


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[Bob Ross]

Go do candle pin bowling in Alewife and get thrown out when one of your buddies gets too drunk and makes a fool of himself.


Someone noticed?

[fuzzalow]

Your juxtaposition of Boston traffic vs LA traffic is dead on. 128 almost makes the 405 look good. But the biggest difference is, as you say, the attitude and behavior of drivers. Mass. drivers are, far too often, self centered a-holes, making bad traffic worse. Whereas LA drivers are, by and large, the exact opposite. People in LA know they live in their cars and adopt an attitude of, let's be civilized about this. They give you exactly the needed space to merge and treat you as a fellow human being making the best of a very crowded highway system. Here, you're an adversary. There, a fellow survivor. Be professional driving out there and you're fine.

Boy, is this ever dead spot right on the mark. I can fall guilty to possibly a false opinion of Massachusetts drivers based on my own anecdotal experience - but after all this time I couldn't give any Mass-hole driver the benefit of the doubt anymore. Many are the worst drivers I have interacted with anywhere. Foreign or domestic.

The one overriding word that comes to mind in describing Mass drivers is vindictive. Out of the blue. Unsolicited. Invariably. That takes it to an entirely lower level altogether and unique to Massachusetts. The only part of Massachusetts where I have ever seen a tad less of this behavior is where the car & driver got on and off a steamship to get there.

[1centaur]

In my experience there is a disconnect between Massachusetts drivers vis cyclists and vis other drivers. I have generally found Mass drivers Ok vis cyclists - passing at a decent distance and not being particularly aggressive towards them (though NH drivers are nicer). I am talking suburbs not city and it's far from ubiquitous, and way too many people pass me on blind curves, but that truck-drivin' redneck anti-cyclist thing you hear about the south just is not true here.

But vis other drivers, it is fairly true that signaling a lane change will produce a reaction in the car in the adjacent lane to whom you are signaling: speeding up so you can't move over. And if you are turning onto a road or turning off of a road on which there is an approaching car, it is shocking how often that driver will at the least not let off the gas at all and might speed up, as if to show you your path is annoying them and they don't care about danger.

The difference is the relevance of self-absorbed bitterness to driving. Cyclists just rolling along the shoulder are not getting in the way and not challenging Aunt Gertrude directly, but a driver deciding to get in Aunt Gertrude's way needs to be sent a message. A shocking number of drivers here roll around with a bitter scowl on their faces as they clutch their steering wheels. Base instincts are very popular here (which makes it easy to guess which way ballot questions will go).

When Tom Brokaw moved to California for his job, John Chancellor told him he would have to become a professional driver to fit in on the freeways. Sage advice.

[Bob Ross]

The one overriding word that comes to mind in describing Mass drivers is vindictive. Out of the blue. Unsolicited.


Well...

fwiw, I lived in Boston for 15 years (split up into 2 segments, one of 9 years and one of 6) surrounded with residing in NYC (where I still live) and so I always found the Compare & Contrast NYC vs Boston Drivers game both entertaining and necessary, in order to re-calibrate my expectations.

And my take is that Massachusetts drivers are not "out of the blue" so long as you expect the unexpected. They are almost predictable in the way they will do something that seems least obvious, least logical, and least safe. They drive like they are bat-schidt crazy...but they always, consistently and predictably, drive like they are bat-schidt crazy.

Once you wrap your expectations around that, it becomes quite easy to drive near Mass-holes.

In fact, every time I moved back to NYC it took me several weeks to figure out how to drive around New Yorkers, because they're almost always, consistently and predictably, driving exactly like they were two minutes ago...or two hours ago. There's nothing unexpected about the way New Yorkers drive; they pick their line, or their lane, or their speed, or their asinine behavior, and then they stick with it.

[seanile]

sort of.
new york/jersey folks are entitled drivers..they pick their line and drive it because now they own it, and they aint moving for anyone.
massachusetts drivers are all about maneuvering around others to seek out the best and quickest line, if that means the right lane is now the fast lane, then so be it.
neither group considers how their actions effect those around them when they do it.
i prefer mass's style, but try to add the awareness-of-others factor.
(i've lived in both places for a long time too)

where i am now, cincinnati, bunch dumbasses i tell ya. merging is a foreign concept, and going from 75 to 0 in a matter of seconds on the highway because.. someone on the other side got pulled over/the ground is damp/the highway is turning a little bit/no particular reason.. is commonplace

[Coluber42]

I live in the Boston area and like it quite a lot. Cycling is fairly big in Massachusetts, and we've seen a huge upswing in city cyclists in the last several years.

The winters are messy, but they're manageable. At the very least, they're reasonably good about plowing and treating the roads. You have to bundle up, but you can easily ride all year 'round here and still have group rides to hook up with on weekends.

Compared with a lot of areas of the country, the towns tend to be older and more compact, meaning there are more places to live where you can reasonably walk somewhere useful without everything being endless seas of strip malls.

You mentioned your wife's job, but what do you do? It sounds like she might have a hard time commuting without a car, but that might not even be impossible. It's possible to take a folding bike on the commuter rail even at rush hour, and it's less than five miles from the train station in Lynn to the farthest end of Nahant. Depending on where you live and work, you might be able to get by with only one car instead of two, or even no cars - Zipcar is big around here. You could conceivably offset some of the cost of living if you could reduce your car needs, and the Boston area is a good place for that because stuff tends to be relatively compact and accessible compared with a lot of other parts of the US.

If you come, do check out New England Randonneurs if you like long distances. :)

[fuzzalow]

And my take is that Massachusetts drivers are not "out of the blue" so long as you expect the unexpected. They are almost predictable in the way they will do something that seems least obvious, least logical, and least safe. They drive like they are bat-schidt crazy...but they always, consistently and predictably, drive like they are bat-schidt crazy.

Once you wrap your expectations around that, it becomes quite easy to drive near Mass-holes.

Well...I was describing the characteristic in behavior of a Massachusetts driver. I was in no way implying that I haven't got their reactions and behavior figured out for how they drive behind the wheel. I know full well what to expect and it is no mystery to me. But it does make driving unpleasant because the Mass-hole driver might make each traffic encounter into an issue of personal insult and respond vindictively.


Vindictive as in speeding up to block you when you are accelerating on the on-ramp to get onto a highway.

Vindictive as to drive unawares until you wish to change lanes and that this is somehow an insult and they now drive to match your own speed to interfere with your journey.

Vindictive as in when coming up behind a guy doing 60 in the left lane who won't move over. So when you pass him on the right he speeds up to block your coming back into the left lane. And when you make it back into the left lane he'll cuss and chase you through traffic to try to cut you off to get back ahead of you in the left lane.

Vindictive as when when in light traffic the Mass-hole driver moves ahead of you in the center lane and then slows down or brake tests you after taking the center lane ahead of where you were traveling all along. Perhaps because you failed to read his mind and get out his way when he wanted to change lanes.

I know exactly with who and with what I am dealing with.
But vis other drivers, it is fairly true that signaling a lane change will produce a reaction in the car in the adjacent lane to whom you are signaling: speeding up so you can't move over. And if you are turning onto a road or turning off of a road on which there is an approaching car, it is shocking how often that driver will at the least not let off the gas at all and might speed up, as if to show you your path is annoying them and they don't care about danger.

The difference is the relevance of self-absorbed bitterness to driving. Cyclists just rolling along the shoulder are not getting in the way and not challenging Aunt Gertrude directly, but a driver deciding to get in Aunt Gertrude's way needs to be sent a message. A shocking number of drivers here roll around with a bitter scowl on their faces as they clutch their steering wheels. Base instincts are very popular here (which makes it easy to guess which way ballot questions will go).

Yes, I agree with what is described here. It is a level of irrationality bordering on the surreal. I don't like sharing the road with them but on that condition I have no control. I can only thank the deities that I don't go through life as seemingly permanently pissed-off as them. They are pathetic, pitiful and petty.

This side conversation is not OT as it is relevant to a quality of life issue surrounding a relocation into this area. Boston is a great town.

[shovelhd]

sort of.
new york/jersey folks are entitled drivers..they pick their line and drive it because now they own it, and they aint moving for anyone.
massachusetts drivers are all about maneuvering around others to seek out the best and quickest line, if that means the right lane is now the fast lane, then so be it.
neither group considers how their actions effect those around them when they do it.
i prefer mass's style, but try to add the awareness-of-others factor.
(i've lived in both places for a long time too)

That's an excellent comparison. Like you I have lived for a long time in both places.

[shovelhd]

Boston is a great city. I don't have a lot to add beyond what others have already said. It is a place that is near and dear to my heart. Nahant is a nice area although not exactly close to anything, so you would have to be creative on where you live. No matter where you end up, it's a great area for cycling. If you race, it is one of a handful of hotbeds in the country. Good luck and best to you.

[merlinmurph]

So, how does Boston look now, with a blizzard on its way? :banana:

[dyerwolf]

I live next door and can tell you it's a great place. My daughters went to "seatots" program at NEU marine lab and have only the nicest things to say about it. The riding is good around here about 2/3 of the year. Nahant used to be part of my circuit and now is mostly with the kids along the beach.
Driving to and fro sucks. The great neck beach can be a resource or a royal pain in ass depending if the algae is smelling. The 4th of July celebration is the best in area.
You can ask me questions offline if desired. I'll be happy to help.

[merlinmurph]

OK, how about now? ;-)

This snow is just amazing this year.

[vav]

Hey, if housing gets too expensive you can always sublet my kids' igloo :)

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8649/16296990260_b63581e91b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qQ7kqG)igloo (https://flic.kr/p/qQ7kqG) by vavpa (https://www.flickr.com/people/63560619@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8603/16298514587_b3aa03124e_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qQf9yc)igloo1 (https://flic.kr/p/qQf9yc) by vavpa (https://www.flickr.com/people/63560619@N06/), on Flickr

[dbh]

I haven't been able to reach my garage in two weeks to free my cycles. Not that it would matter much because every bike lane in Boston has been covered by plow residue or parked cars.

[KJMUNC]

We lived in Salem for a couple of years and loved it. Super easy commuter rail access into town (~35-40min) and access to either Newburyport or Gloucester via train the other direction for great weekend trips.

Downtown Salem has some great little spots and I still miss riding north out of town as it's a quick hop to some great, and often empty roads. Several forumites live in/around the area too.

Pretty easy access to Nahant for her, maybe 10-15min max, depending on where you live. Swampscott is nice, but we avoided buying there because of the taxes, as someone else mentioned. Plus, Salem feels more like it's own little town since it's a bit more removed and has the full downtown experience.

The amenities in town are nice too: you have all the typical restaurants/bars downtown and around the area, but also have relatively quick access to Home Depot/Target on 107 and all the mall-related stuff on 128 if you need to go there.

[45K10]

Yeah Boston isn't looking too great right now.
It was 65 here yesterday.

[Ti Designs]

Yeah Boston isn't looking too great right now.
It was 65 here yesterday.

I've got snow shoes, it looks just fine.

[leftyfreak]

Yeah Boston isn't looking too great right now.
It was 65 here yesterday.

We have 65. Inches. Of snow.

(I still like it here.)

[Ralph]

As a 73 year old retiree, I wouldn't move one inch N of where I live now. Actually thinking of moving further S in Florida. Even think where you are is nice.

But if I were a younger family man, I would go where ever my career (or spouse's) took me. With a good job and good future for my family, life can be good about anywhere. And you do need to think about your finances for a very long life time. I never understood folks who would put location/climate over career. I've lived around the US some, and believe I could be happy most places....with a good career. Exception might be if I had kids currently in high school or something like that. I think if I was a young person, with no obligations, I would head for Alaska. They need every thing up there. Drove up there once, from Orlando. Nothing like what I expected.

In my day, career was everything. Never thought much about climate. Having money for a nice home, being able to educate all my kids with no debt, being able to retire comfortably, etc. That's what we worked for. Now young people talk about quality of life style, all that. And they will give up dollars for that. I wouldn't/ didn't. Different generations I guess.

[eippo1]

I've got snow shoes, it looks just fine.

I'd agree with you if we could find some snowshoes for the dog.

[leftyfreak]

I'd agree with you if we could find some snowshoes for the dog.

My dog has a wheelchair. He can't get anywhere right now. He's not at all impressed.

[45K10]

So my wife took the job in Nahant and after a summer out in BC we will be heading that way in early August.

We made a visit over this past Easter weekend and although there was still a lot of snow on the ground I liked the area. It seems like a pretty good place to live. I will miss NC for sure but it is great career move for my wife and there should be more opportunities in the future for our 4 month old. Bonus is I work from home so I don't have to commute.

Thanks again for all of the insight and comments!

[merlinmurph]

Great to hear, thanks for the update.
Welcome to the Boston area - when you get here. I'm kinda jealous you're spending the summer in BC.

[dyerwolf]

Congrats and be sure to reach out to us local respondents when you get settled.
Evan

[paredown]

... I'm kinda jealous you're spending the summer in BC.

Me too--haven't been "home" for quite a while...