OT: UNC and NCAA named in lawsuit

[rwsaunders]

You knew that it was only a matter of time and it won't stop with UNC. When the floodgates open, it will make deflate-gate look like child's play.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/22/us/unc-paper-classes-lawsuit/index.html

[Aaron O]

You knew that it was only a matter of time and it won't stop with UNC. When the floodgates open, it will make deflate-gate look like child's play.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/22/us/unc-paper-classes-lawsuit/index.html

This is pretty silly, and the ncaa "student athlete" hypocrisy certainly includes the players. I'll use one unc example...Rasheed Wallace.

Rasheed Wallace had to take the SATs 3 times to break 700...the minimum score for admittance. The average score for out of state UNC students was something like 1300. The average scores for their "student athletes" was under 800. Respectfully, he doesn't deserve to be in a class with actual students and i seriously doubt that he's capable of passing real curriculum at UNC.

UNC is an extreme example because of their recruitment policies and high standards outside of them. I don't think Duke is going to have this problem.

This sounds like a cynical end run around attacking the real issue - the kids not getting paid. So they're holding the NCAA at their word and saying you've got to be kidding me! You want to not pay me and call me a student? Ok - I'll sue over the bogus classes.

I just finished taking a lot of accounting courses...and I took most of them at the community college of philadelphia to save on costs. The school has something like a 32% graduation rate for an associates within 5 years. Many of these kids can barely read and very few of them know how to study, write a paper, etc. I think the pass rate in accounting 101 was 25%. The idea that any kid can go to community college (let alone UNC) and catch up from high school is a myth based on what I saw. That isn't UNC's fault (or the ncaa's) and that is the recruiting pool for many of the best NBA talent.

What is this systems fault is pretending some of these kids are students instead of semi-pro athletes. I absolutely think they're being shafted out of substantial money...but an education? Did unc have a rule saying they weren't allowed into a real class? Did they think they got their on the strength of their college essay?

It's our schools, parents and neighborhoods that are guilty in failing to educate these kids. It's a complex nut that includes how schools are funded, administrative policies, teachers, lack of pre-natal care, poverty...etc.

[holliscx]

This is like a petty officer in the Navy suing after the fact that s/he was deprived of college or life experience. Young people make choices that they later regret, but Rashanda et al had every opportunity to get an education and play basketball at UNC. The onus was on her then and now but this reeks of a shady lawyer wishing to make a buck. They didn't present this lawsuit but rather were offered it and paid to sign their names essentially. Sad story all around like snakes biting the hands that fed them.

[Aaron O]

This is like a petty officer in the Navy suing after the fact that s/he was deprived of college or life experience. Young people make choices that they later regret, but Rashanda et al had every opportunity to get an education and play basketball at UNC. The onus was on her then and now but this reeks of a shady lawyer wishing to make a buck. They didn't present this lawsuit but rather were offered it and paid to sign their names essentially. Sad story all around like snakes biting the hands that fed them.

Actually I think it's hilarious. The ncaa and schools rip the kids off and have this student illusion. Claiming damages and negligence on their education piece is inspired. How exactly is UNC going to defend offering classes like this? They're in the position of having to blame the students, begging the question of how they got in in the first place and their exception policies. What they're really targeting is the kids not getting paid...it's an end around.

Ohio State has over 100,000 kids for a football game. Sure...they aren't semi-pro athletes :rolleyes:

[holliscx]

Actually I think it's hilarious. The ncaa and schools rip the kids off and have this student illusion. Claiming damages and negligence on their education piece is inspired.

There's no student illusion whatsoever the kids are at UNC not for an education but to play basketball. You wrote that 'Sheed couldn't pass a real class for he couldn't get into Carolina were it not for hoops and I agree. I don't think the lawsuit is inspired but lame, sad. Besides it's a shady lawyer's scheme and not the players' idea they're just in it for the $ I guarantee.

[christian]

shady lawyerThe attorney representing them is the same attorney who represented Ed O'Bannon against the NCAA for use of his likeness. I'd suggest he's just someone who's tired of the NCAA hypocrisy like many of the rest of us.

[Aaron O]

There's no student illusion whatsoever the kids are at UNC not for an education but to play basketball. You wrote that 'Sheed couldn't pass a real class for he couldn't get into Carolina were it not for hoops and I agree. I don't think the lawsuit is inspired but lame, sad. Besides it's a shady lawyer's scheme and not the players' idea they're just in it for the $ I guarantee.

The NCAA and colleges not paying kids who play in front of tens of thousands of fans and sell merchandise isn't their perpetration of an illusion? :rolleyes:

[holliscx]

The attorney representing them is the same attorney who represented Ed O'Bannon against the NCAA for use of his likeness. I'd suggest he's just someone who's tired of the NCAA hypocrisy like many of the rest of us.

I'll bet you a Coca-Cola the lawyer's primary motivation is money. I have a friend who's an attorney and he said he went into the profession not because of a calling or passion but because his mom wanted him to make money. I was gobsmacked to hear that.

[holliscx]

The NCAA and colleges not paying kids who play in front of tens of thousands of fans and sell merchandise isn't their perpetration of an illusion? :rolleyes:

The upper echelon are only staying long enough to play in the NBA where they are paid handsomely. Most of the scholarship players are working toward that goal. There's risk but also a huge reward. But UNC gives them an education if they want it. Rashanda chose to take paper classes. Every institution has "easy" classes but to file a lawsuit claiming you were deprived of an education is a crock of merde, we're not adults here at Paceline forum to write that word in English apparently.

[Aaron O]

I'll bet you a Coca-Cola the lawyer's primary motivation is money. I have a friend who's an attorney and he said he went into the profession not because of a calling or passion but because his mom wanted him to make money. I was gobsmacked to hear that.

How awful - people who spend over a hundred k on their education, who spend 3 years beyond the BA and take a rigorous exam for admittance - want to be paid!!!

Why you'd almost forget that this is the US - where we have a labor market and the right to sell our abilities.

[FlashUNC]

This is something rather near and dear to me, as Carolina is my alma mater, and I was there smack in the middle of this academic fraud period. Heck, I took a couple of the summer classes geared towards atheletes that have now come under fire. The department chair of AFAM was my professor for one summer course that was stupidly easy.

I think this is a black mark on all Tar Heels and a rather dark time for the university. I'm not one of those apologists who think this is some grand scheme by NC State fans to burn down a rival (Seriously, there are some friends I have from school who think that...). What the university did was shameful and athletics has driven the bus for far too long. I've stayed away from watching the games since all this broke.

However, I don't think what happened at Carolina was all that different from any other major D-1 program in a so-called "revenue sport" (Football and basketball).

If this is a another step in fixing the horrible cartel that is the NCAA and getting college athletes proper compensation, so be it. The attorneys involved have proven their brilliance so far in the Ed O'Bannon case. I have no reason to think this tack will be any less successful.

And I hope it leads to some real reform at the university.

[Aaron O]

The upper echelon are only staying long enough to play in the NBA where they are paid handsomely. Most of the scholarship players are working toward that goal. There's risk but also a huge reward. But UNC gives them an education if they want it. Rashanda chose to take paper classes. Every institution has "easy" classes but to file a lawsuit claiming you were deprived of an education is a crock of merde, we're not adults here at Paceline forum to write that word in English apparently.

I'm sorry - I'm not following your lack of a cohesive argument. So the NCAA's argument for calling them students and ripping them off is that some of them might be paid eventually by a different entity? And UNC offering Rasheed Wallace admittance with 700 SATs isn't perpetrating a lie?

[batman1425]

There is a good documentary on Netflix about this: "Schooled". The film takes a very pro-student focus, but there are problems on both sides.

The big issue I see is this: The vast majority of college athletes will not go on to play professionally. For those that do, most will not play more than 3-5 years as a pro. Guys like Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, John Wall, are the exception not the rule.

The kids know this and know they are rolling the dice on a future in professional sports at the expense of an academic focused college experience. The schools tell them, don't fret, you'll leave with a world class degree in whatever you want to study. With the cost of education today, that is not a worthless offer. The problem is, it is exceedingly difficult for one of these kids to play a sport at the highest level, and keep up with the university standard. Most can't do it. So the school makes things like paper classes so they can be called a "student", keep playing and bringing in the bucks, and after 4 years, the kid leaves with a diploma that has little to no learning or training behind it.

Are the schools doing the kids a disservice by dumbing down their educational experience so they can focus on sports? Absolutely. Should these kids get compensated in some fashion for what they do for the school - I think so. If that compensation is going to be a free education - which is the argument that the schools make - then they have to do a better job educating the kids off the field.

There has to be some responsibility on the student though. Even if they pay them to play for 4 years, that isn't a career. Most of these athletes need to recognize that their future as a pro is unlikely and they need a back up plan. If their school isn't willing or able to provide them with a reasonable education - they need to go somewhere else. Them taking their skills elsewhere is the only thing that could feasibly out weigh the influence of Alumni dollars from a W in the column. Student athletes must DEMAND better education off the field, or they won't get it.

[Aaron O]

There is a good documentary on Netflix about this: "Schooled". The film takes a very pro-student focus, but there are problems on both sides.

The big issue I see is this: The vast majority of college athletes will not go on to play professionally. For those that do, most will not play more than 3-5 years as a pro. Guys like Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, John Wall, are the exception not the rule.

The kids know this and know they are rolling the dice on a future in professional sports at the expense of an academic focused college experience. The schools tell them, don't fret, you'll leave with a world class degree in whatever you want to study. With the cost of education today, that is not a worthless offer. The problem is, it is exceedingly difficult for one of these kids to play a sport at the highest level, and keep up with the university standard. Most can't do it. So the school makes things like paper classes so they can be called a "student", keep playing and bringing in the bucks, and after 4 years, the kid leaves with a diploma that has little to no learning or training behind it.

Are the schools doing the kids a disservice by dumbing down their educational experience so they can focus on sports? Absolutely. Should these kids get compensated in some fashion for what they do for the school - I think so. If that compensation is going to be a free education - which is the argument that the schools make - then they have to do a better job educating the kids off the field.

There has to be some responsibility on the student though. Even if they pay them to play for 4 years, that isn't a career. Most of these athletes need to recognize that their future as a pro is unlikely and they need a back up plan. If their school isn't willing or able to provide them with a reasonable education - they need to go somewhere else. Them taking their skills elsewhere is the only thing that could feasibly out weigh the influence of Alumni dollars from a W in the column. Student athletes must DEMAND better education off the field, or they won't get it.
On the plus side, most of them are business majors, where not actually knowing anything isn't that large an exception or handicap :banana:

As for the rest of it, I think you have it right.

[jr59]

There is a good documentary on Netflix about this: "Schooled". The film takes a very pro-student focus, but there are problems on both sides.

The big issue I see is this: The vast majority of college athletes will not go on to play professionally. For those that do, most will not play more than 3-5 years as a pro. Guys like Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, John Wall, are the exception not the rule.

The kids know this and know they are rolling the dice on a future in professional sports at the expense of an academic focused college experience. The schools tell them, don't fret, you'll leave with a world class degree in whatever you want to study. With the cost of education today, that is not a worthless offer. The problem is, it is exceedingly difficult for one of these kids to play a sport at the highest level, and keep up with the university standard. Most can't do it. So the school makes things like paper classes so they can be called a "student", keep playing and bringing in the bucks, and after 4 years, the kid leaves with a diploma that has little to no learning or training behind it.

Are the schools doing the kids a disservice by dumbing down their educational experience so they can focus on sports? Absolutely. Should these kids get compensated in some fashion for what they do for the school - I think so. If that compensation is going to be a free education - which is the argument that the schools make - then they have to do a better job educating the kids off the field.

There has to be some responsibility on the student though. Even if they pay them to play for 4 years, that isn't a career. Most of these athletes need to recognize that their future as a pro is unlikely and they need a back up plan. If their school isn't willing or able to provide them with a reasonable education - they need to go somewhere else. Them taking their skills elsewhere is the only thing that could feasibly out weigh the influence of Alumni dollars from a W in the column. Student athletes must DEMAND better education off the field, or they won't get it.

In basketball, there are many places to ply their trade. Most people think of the NBA and that's it. A kid does have to be able to play, a bit, but, most can play as much or as little as they wish, year round.
I know more than a 100 or so that play year round or the most part of the year. All over the world. Granted, it's not the money of the NBA, and it's not in the USA for the most part. But the opportunities exist for a good living.

The D league was supposed to help with this, with guys that were not able to go to, or ill prepared to do schoolwork. But The CBA of the NBA seems to have lost this battle.

[batman1425]

Sure there are options, but I would argue that there are far fewer of those available than for somebody with a solid undergraduate degree. Plus they are 1 injury away from losing the ability to play all together. Still need an education to fall back on.

[josephr]

The attorney representing them is the same attorney who represented Ed O'Bannon against the NCAA for use of his likeness. I'd suggest he's just someone who's tired of the NCAA hypocrisy like many of the rest of us.

eh??? you mean there's an attorney out there with an agenda of fairness? :eek: NCAA and sports are soaked in cash....guarantee this gets 'settled out of court with a non-disclosure agreement.'

[malcolm]

This is pretty silly, and the ncaa "student athlete" hypocrisy certainly includes the players. I'll use one unc example...Rasheed Wallace.

Rasheed Wallace had to take the SATs 3 times to break 700...the minimum score for admittance. The average score for out of state UNC students was something like 1300. The average scores for their "student athletes" was under 800. Respectfully, he doesn't deserve to be in a class with actual students and i seriously doubt that he's capable of passing real curriculum at UNC.

UNC is an extreme example because of their recruitment policies and high standards outside of them. I don't think Duke is going to have this problem.

This sounds like a cynical end run around attacking the real issue - the kids not getting paid. So they're holding the NCAA at their word and saying you've got to be kidding me! You want to not pay me and call me a student? Ok - I'll sue over the bogus classes.

I just finished taking a lot of accounting courses...and I took most of them at the community college of philadelphia to save on costs. The school has something like a 32% graduation rate for an associates within 5 years. Many of these kids can barely read and very few of them know how to study, write a paper, etc. I think the pass rate in accounting 101 was 25%. The idea that any kid can go to community college (let alone UNC) and catch up from high school is a myth based on what I saw. That isn't UNC's fault (or the ncaa's) and that is the recruiting pool for many of the best NBA talent.

What is this systems fault is pretending some of these kids are students instead of semi-pro athletes. I absolutely think they're being shafted out of substantial money...but an education? Did unc have a rule saying they weren't allowed into a real class? Did they think they got their on the strength of their college essay?

It's our schools, parents and neighborhoods that are guilty in failing to educate these kids. It's a complex nut that includes how schools are funded, administrative policies, teachers, lack of pre-natal care, poverty...etc.


Very well said. This goes back forever. I graduated from LSU undergrad in the early 80s and can recall an english class with a basketball player, well known. He only showed up for two classes and sat slouched in the back for those two and never said a word. I don't know if he passed or not but do know he was on academic probation several times. LSU did and probably does provide help and tutoring for athletes in virtually every class, but this requires drive and desire on their part. Most of these kids have been ushered through the system since middle school based solely on athletic performance and don't have the basic skills for any education much less higher. The ones I really feel bad for is the ones that don't make it to the college level much less the pros, what do they do?
LSU lost something like 20 players early to the NFL draft in 2012/2013.

For a significant percentage of them it's become a farce to assume it's anything but a farm team proving ground for pro sports.
How do you fix it? I think the universities are basically doing what they have to in the system that exists. These sports backed universities are expected to field competitive teams by alumni and financial backers. It's all about the money and the students are caught up in a system that doesn't work and clearly doesn't have their best interest at heart.

I do agree with sentiment that the education is there with help if you want it, but that is unrealistic thinking for the average college student especially one with visions of pro sports and millions of dollars.

[Aaron O]

Very well said. This goes back forever. I graduated from LSU undergrad in the early 80s and can recall an english class with a basketball player, well known. He only showed up for two classes and sat slouched in the back for those two and never said a word. I don't know if he passed or not but do know he was on academic probation several times. LSU did and probably does provide help and tutoring for athletes in virtually every class, but this requires drive and desire on their part. Most of these kids have been ushered through the system since middle school based solely on athletic performance and don't have the basic skills for any education much less higher. The ones I really feel bad for is the ones that don't make it to the college level much less the pros, what do they do?
LSU lost something like 20 players early to the NFL draft in 2012/2013.

For a significant percentage of them it's become a farce to assume it's anything but a farm team proving ground for pro sports.
How do you fix it? I think the universities are basically doing what they have to in the system that exists. These sports backed universities are expected to field competitive teams by alumni and financial backers. It's all about the money and the students are caught up in a system that doesn't work and clearly doesn't have their best interest at heart.

I do agree with sentiment that the education is there with help if you want it, but that is unrealistic thinking for the average college student especially one with visions of pro sports and millions of dollars.

The real question is how do we start producing kids that can read and write...or have an understanding of professional expectations. A lot of these kids have no idea...and knowledge we take for granted, like how to dress at an interview, isn't knowledge they have. You are absolutely right - they're beings shoved through the system, and it's not just athletes. I sat in a college class (community college or not) with kids that could not have graduated from my junior high. I am not exaggerating.

My parents spent decades teaching in the philly school system (and it's gotten worse since they left). Early on my dad was failing kids...he was told by a department head that if he failed kids, it must mean he was failing to teach. Message delivered. We're pushing them through and setting policy by make believe. By the time you get them in high school it's too late anyway.

My dad taught a well known name basketball player...he was ordered to pass him. They also played him in a game with a vicious injury he never should have played in.

Philly schools get supplemental federal funding based on attendance records. So they fake attendance. If I missed a class, my parents were called and I got detention. In a philly school? If you're not beating people up, you're under the radar. You're handed these kids, many of whom are from neighborhoods with no expectation for success, and you're expected to get them through a mandated exam. So the scores get faked.

It's a tough nut...and there are no easy answers.

[Ken Robb]

I wonder how many supporters/donors would still care about these athletic programs if the illusion of "student" athletes gave way to recognized semi-pro teams financed by Siwash U.

[verticaldoug]

eh??? you mean there's an attorney out there with an agenda of fairness? :eek: NCAA and sports are soaked in cash....guarantee this gets 'settled out of court with a non-disclosure agreement.'

I do not believe non-disclosure agreements are permissible in class action suits. Since the suit seeks class action.....

[verticaldoug]

One of the possible outcomes the lawyer has suggested was for athletes to be able to go back to UNC for free and take classes to get a proper degree. He is essentially trying to get rid of the one year renewal of scholarships.

Since you are usually encouraged to take minimum course load in-season, I can see this possibly susceeding. This will crush programs unless the NCAA scraps the scholarship cap. It is like everyone who 'retires' becomes a medical hardship scholarship. (Saban's preferred method to stay under the cap)

[choke]

Only in the Land of No Personal Responsibility (the US) would students sue a school because they failed to receive an education....:rolleyes:

[unterhausen]

NCAA really is scum. Recent examples: not letting someone play when they transferred because they weren't playing at the first school. Making an athlete sue a t-shirt company that was making unauthorized use of his name. The list of nonsense goes on and on. Higher education would be far better off dropping the pretense that this is some kind of extracurricular activity

[FlashUNC]

One of the possible outcomes the lawyer has suggested was for athletes to be able to go back to UNC for free and take classes to get a proper degree. He is essentially trying to get rid of the one year renewal of scholarships.

Since you are usually encouraged to take minimum course load in-season, I can see this possibly susceeding. This will crush programs unless the NCAA scraps the scholarship cap. It is like everyone who 'retires' becomes a medical hardship scholarship. (Saban's preferred method to stay under the cap)

The fact these are one-year, renewable scholarships is all the more galling.

Burn down the NCAA tomorrow as far as I'm concerned.

[Aaron O]

Only in the Land of No Personal Responsibility (the US) would students sue a school because they failed to receive an education....:rolleyes:

Let's take an honest look at this...as someone who wants to pin this charade on students.

1. UNC knows Rasheed Wallace can't pass UNC curriculum when they admit him.
2. Rasheed Wallace isn't close to meeting their normal admission standards
3. UNC offers classes and tutoring not available to other kids that circumvents their own education.
4. UNC and the NCAA sell the labor of these kids to rabid fans for a lot of money, and pay them nothing.
5. This is done in conjunction with pro leagues that get a free developmental league out of it.

Yep - the kids are the problem. :rolleyes:

[FlashUNC]

Let's take an honest look at this...as someone who wants to pin this charade on students.

1. UNC knows Rasheed Wallace can't pass UNC curriculum when they admit him.
2. Rasheed Wallace isn't close to meeting their normal admission standards
3. UNC offers classes and tutoring not available to other kids that circumvents their own education.
4. UNC and the NCAA sell the labor of these kids to rabid fans for a lot of money, and pay them nothing.
5. This is done in conjunction with pro leagues that get a free developmental league out of it.

Yep - the kids are the problem. :rolleyes:

Its my alma mater and this is a thorough +1.

Ignore the multi-billion dollar TV deal, the fact they sold a jersey with his number on it in student stores that he never saw a dime from is an egregious slap in the face.

[choke]

Let's take an honest look at this...as someone who wants to pin this charade on students.

1. UNC knows Rasheed Wallace can't pass UNC curriculum when they admit him.
2. Rasheed Wallace isn't close to meeting their normal admission standards
3. UNC offers classes and tutoring not available to other kids that circumvents their own education.
4. UNC and the NCAA sell the labor of these kids to rabid fans for a lot of money, and pay them nothing.
5. This is done in conjunction with pro leagues that get a free developmental league out of it.

Yep - the kids are the problem. :rolleyes:I don't disagree that the system failed preparing the students but that's not the fault of the NCAA or any college. That happened long before those students reached that point - if anything they should be suing the grade schools that they attended. The NCAA is the target because they have more money.

Regardless, those students do bear a responsibility. No one prevented them from learning along the way if they really wanted to do so.

And for the record I'm in no way defending the NCAA. I think they're about the equal of politicians and if all school sports were discontinued this afternoon I wouldn't shed a tear.

[merckx]

The ultimate solution to eradicate the financial, emotional and educational abuse and deception within collegiate sport is to abandon the model of professionalism that exists within it full stop. This means: ending scholarship assistance, and the recruitment of athletes to the institution. This means that student-athletes will choose an institution on their own volition with the pursuit of earning an education that will/can also be enhanced by their participation in their chosen sport(s). In other words, take money out of the discussion and allow academic institutions to do what they were designed to do, that is, to educate kids, not to make them entertainers. When I figure out how to put the toothpaste back in the tube, I'll let you know.

[jr59]

Let's take an honest look at this...as someone who wants to pin this charade on students.

1. UNC knows Rasheed Wallace can't pass UNC curriculum when they admit him.
2. Rasheed Wallace isn't close to meeting their normal admission standards
3. UNC offers classes and tutoring not available to other kids that circumvents their own education.
4. UNC and the NCAA sell the labor of these kids to rabid fans for a lot of money, and pay them nothing.
5. This is done in conjunction with pro leagues that get a free developmental league out of it.

Yep - the kids are the problem. :rolleyes:

Agree with all but #3. And #5
The avg student can find the right classes and tutoring. It won't provide them with a degree, but they are there. At least in most cases.

This is just a free benefit the pro leagues get. If they were in bed together, there wouldn't be any early exit. No one and done, in basketball.

[malcolm]

The ultimate solution to eradicate the financial, emotional and educational abuse and deception within collegiate sport is to abandon the model of professionalism that exists within it full stop. This means: ending scholarship assistance, and the recruitment of athletes to the institution. This means that student-athletes will choose an institution on their own volition with the pursuit of earning an education that will/can also be enhanced by their participation in their chosen sport(s). In other words, take money out of the discussion and allow academic institutions to do what they were designed to do, that is, to educate kids, not to make them entertainers. When I figure out how to put the toothpaste back in the tube, I'll let you know.

This is interesting and I tend to agree. Could it ever be accomplished probably not. I think the competition and games would still be interesting and I suspect they would still have legions of fans. The level of play would decrease tremendously but if all schools were in the same boat the competition would be fairly equal and probably more settled out by population or size of the student body than some of the less savory scenarios currently in play.

Does anyone know the history of college scholarships for athletics, like when did they start or become commonplace?

[jr59]

The ultimate solution to eradicate the financial, emotional and educational abuse and deception within collegiate sport is to abandon the model of professionalism that exists within it full stop. This means: ending scholarship assistance, and the recruitment of athletes to the institution. This means that student-athletes will choose an institution on their own volition with the pursuit of earning an education that will/can also be enhanced by their participation in their chosen sport(s). In other words, take money out of the discussion and allow academic institutions to do what they were designed to do, that is, to educate kids, not to make them entertainers. When I figure out how to put the toothpaste back in the tube, I'll let you know.

It's easier than that. Make every student meet the same accedemic standards!

Zero exceptions. They must work toward a degree in a declared subject.

This would clean up this up quickly.

[Aaron O]

Agree with all but #3. And #5
The avg student can find the right classes and tutoring. It won't provide them with a degree, but they are there. At least in most cases.

This is just a free benefit the pro leagues get. If they were in bed together, there wouldn't be any early exit. No one and done, in basketball.

Regarding 5, I was also talking about the NFL.

As far as the suit - it's an end around. If the NCAA claims that they're students as a way to not pay them, I think it's hilarious to attack their education procedures and let them defend it.

UNC is not the only school doing this...my apologies to flash for picking on them. It's especially notable with UNC because of how strong they are outside of the athlete admits. The extreme dichotomy makes it more noticeable (and the program's success). The average FSU student is closer to their student athlete than those at UNC.

[malcolm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletic_scholarship

[FlashUNC]

Regarding 5, I was also talking about the NFL.

As far as the suit - it's an end around. If the NCAA claims that they're students as a way to not pay them, I think it's hilarious to attack their education procedures and let them defend it.

UNC is not the only school doing this...my apologies to flash for picking on them. It's especially notable with UNC because of how strong they are outside of the athlete admits. The extreme dichotomy makes it more noticeable (and the program's success). The average FSU student is closer to their student athlete than those at UNC.

Oh I'm not taking it personally at all. Apologies if my post made it seem that way. I'm fully in support of hanging them out to dry on this. They've created a scandal that calls every degree they produce into question.

Obviously, I'm not a fan of that. I have a deep and unhealthy love for the university -- and yes, the basketball team is part of those memories and bond -- but its not the only thing. And not even the primary memories I have from my four years there. But the university has clearly placed athletics ahead of academics and that needs to change. I see what they're doing as table stakes for any major D-1 program, but that doesn't mean its right.

So yeah, I'm one of those weirdos who loves Carolina so much I want to see it hurt a bit through this process and come out a stronger institution on the back-end that's maybe a bit less obsessed with Roy and what's happening at the Smith Center.

[merckx]

It's easier than that. Make every student meet the same accedemic standards!

Zero exceptions. They must work toward a degree in a declared subject.

This would clean up this up quickly.

I agree that this is a suitable, and perfect solution, but I still believe that the current money grab in collegiate sport must stop. It is not what academic institutions should be about. I also agree that the interest in collegiate sport will continue even with a diluted talent pool. The model of scholar-athlete must be resurrected.

[jr59]

I agree that this is a suitable, and perfect solution, but I still believe that the current money grab in collegiate sport must stop. It is not what academic institutions should be about. I also agree that the interest in collegiate sport will continue even with a diluted talent pool. The model of scholar-athlete must be resurrected.

I'm fairly sure, that my idea would do what you wish. By doing such, you have sports like the Ivy League. Without the big time athletes, TV revenues would shrink,and so would the shoe deals. As few would want to watch on a national level. Therefore eliminating the advertising dollars that college sports have now.

[Mark McM]

Regardless, those students do bear a responsibility. No one prevented them from learning along the way if they really wanted to do so.

Actually, they are prevented from learning by the athletic system. The time demands of many college sports for practice and travel prevent many students from being able to participate in a normal class program. Since the sports come first for the University, they often create separate (and not equal) class programs for the 'student'-athletes so that they can devote their full attention to their sport. I'm pretty sure that this this separate and unequal scholastic program is the basis of the law suit.

[old fat man]

I agree that this is a suitable, and perfect solution, but I still believe that the current money grab in collegiate sport must stop. It is not what academic institutions should be about. I also agree that the interest in collegiate sport will continue even with a diluted talent pool. The model of scholar-athlete must be resurrected.

I'm fairly sure, that my idea would do what you wish. By doing such, you have sports like the Ivy League. Without the big time athletes, TV revenues would shrink,and so would the shoe deals. As few would want to watch on a national level. Therefore eliminating the advertising dollars that college sports have now.

I agree that there is a big problem here, but one thing not considered by these proposed changes is how huge of an impact it would have on the overall cost of higher education and the amount of increased begging for federal, state, and alumni dollars.

None of these schools (UNC, FSU, Stanford, whomever) are losing money from their strong athletic programs. Instead, they are bringing in huge dollars (stoking the argument to keep striving for the top spot) that reduce their need for raising tuition as much as they would otherwise, and reducing the federal, state, and alumni dollars they seek.

I'M NOT DEFENDING THIS BEHAVIOR, JUST NOTING THE FINANCIAL REWARDS TO THE UNIVERSITY, and frankly, to those real student who are paying lower tuition thanks to the university's financial security.

[Aaron O]

I agree that there is a big problem here, but one thing not considered by these proposed changes is how huge of an impact it would have on the overall cost of higher education and the amount of increased begging for federal, state, and alumni dollars.

None of these schools (UNC, FSU, Stanford, whomever) are losing money from their strong athletic programs. Instead, they are bringing in huge dollars (stoking the argument to keep striving for the top spot) that reduce their need for raising tuition as much as they would otherwise, and reducing the federal, state, and alumni dollars they seek.

I'M NOT DEFENDING THIS BEHAVIOR, JUST NOTING THE FINANCIAL REWARDS TO THE UNIVERSITY, and frankly, to those real student who are paying lower tuition thanks to the university's financial security.

How many of these dollars are going to other unprofitable sports? How many are going to unnecessary stadiums, practice equipment and the like?

These aren't leading questions, I really don't know. My extremely limited understanding is that, taken as a whole, few athletic programs generate revenue for the school. If football at unc is just subsidizing women's field hockey and track, my answer is get rid of all of it and let these kids join clubs they fund.

[jr59]

Very few schools sports programs make enought to cover the other non revenue generating sports.

Football and basketball are the 2 sports that make a surplus and only at the top 50 or so programs. Most don't.

So it's not like the football team gives back to the general accedemic fund does not always happen

[verticaldoug]

I agree that there is a big problem here, but one thing not considered by these proposed changes is how huge of an impact it would have on the overall cost of higher education and the amount of increased begging for federal, state, and alumni dollars.

None of these schools (UNC, FSU, Stanford, whomever) are losing money from their strong athletic programs. Instead, they are bringing in huge dollars (stoking the argument to keep striving for the top spot) that reduce their need for raising tuition as much as they would otherwise, and reducing the federal, state, and alumni dollars they seek.

I'M NOT DEFENDING THIS BEHAVIOR, JUST NOTING THE FINANCIAL REWARDS TO THE UNIVERSITY, and frankly, to those real student who are paying lower tuition thanks to the university's financial security.

The only large school I know which puts money back into a general fund is Notre Dame and that is only a small amount. The rest of the D-1 sports programs consume everything they make in revenue and sometimes more. I can give you a link to a title9 compliance database which has all the revenue and expense information for all Universities in the U.S. Scholarships are about 15%+- of total athletic budget. A winning sports program does not contribute to keep tuition costs down.

[ojingoh]

The only large school I know which puts money back into a general fund is Notre Dame and that is only a small amount. The rest of the D-1 sports programs consume everything they make in revenue and sometimes more. I can give you a link to a title9 compliance database which has all the revenue and expense information for all Universities in the U.S. Scholarships are about 15%+- of total athletic budget. A winning sports program does not contribute to keep tuition costs down.

D1 competition is also used as a recruiting tool for the paying customers -- the students. Prospective students are absolutely familiar with a winning football or basketball program when thinking about where to attend college. Are the students familiar with the fencing team or the golf team? Probably not unless they can get a place on those teams.

[FlashUNC]

I agree that there is a big problem here, but one thing not considered by these proposed changes is how huge of an impact it would have on the overall cost of higher education and the amount of increased begging for federal, state, and alumni dollars.

None of these schools (UNC, FSU, Stanford, whomever) are losing money from their strong athletic programs. Instead, they are bringing in huge dollars (stoking the argument to keep striving for the top spot) that reduce their need for raising tuition as much as they would otherwise, and reducing the federal, state, and alumni dollars they seek.

I'M NOT DEFENDING THIS BEHAVIOR, JUST NOTING THE FINANCIAL REWARDS TO THE UNIVERSITY, and frankly, to those real student who are paying lower tuition thanks to the university's financial security.

I can't speak for other schools, but none of that is happening at UNC. The general assembly has passed pretty big budget cuts across the UNC system in recent years that led to Chapel Hill considering cutting all foreign language programs at the university. They managed a compromise with a tuition and student fee increase.

I didn't see the athletic department jumping in to cover that gap. If anything, the athletic booster dollars support the athletes' academic programs.

Bill Friday, legendary former president of the UNC system, has publicly declared on several occasions that sports at Carolina were a break-even proposition until Butch Davis and the football program really came along and started to spend, and the department is now a money-loser for the university.

The data is a touch old now, but the Knight Commission's database on academic and athletic spending is pretty enlightening: http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2013/12/4/new-database-reveals-academic-and-athletic-spending-trends-public-universities/

[choke]

Actually, they are prevented from learning by the athletic system. The time demands of many college sports for practice and travel prevent many students from being able to participate in a normal class program. Since the sports come first for the University, they often create separate (and not equal) class programs for the 'student'-athletes so that they can devote their full attention to their sport. I'm pretty sure that this this separate and unequal scholastic program is the basis of the law suit.My comment was really directed at their time spent before they reached college....which is IMO where the system really fails.

I agree that there is a big problem here, but one thing not considered by these proposed changes is how huge of an impact it would have on the overall cost of higher education and the amount of increased begging for federal, state, and alumni dollars.

None of these schools (UNC, FSU, Stanford, whomever) are losing money from their strong athletic programs. Instead, they are bringing in huge dollars (stoking the argument to keep striving for the top spot) that reduce their need for raising tuition as much as they would otherwise, and reducing the federal, state, and alumni dollars they seek.

I'M NOT DEFENDING THIS BEHAVIOR, JUST NOTING THE FINANCIAL REWARDS TO THE UNIVERSITY, and frankly, to those real student who are paying lower tuition thanks to the university's financial security.I remembered seeing the numbers in another thread....the expenditures are pretty mind boggling IMO.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/

[holliscx]

I thought a sports scholarship was a privilege but the prevailing attitude today is entitlement.

[Aaron O]

Very few schools sports programs make enought to cover the other non revenue generating sports.

Football and basketball are the 2 sports that make a surplus and only at the top 50 or so programs. Most don't.

So it's not like the football team gives back to the general accedemic fund does not always happen

JR - that's what I thought. Taken as a whole, college athletics are a major economic drain on the school and students, and the few large programs generally subsidize the multiple unprofitable programs.

Cut all of it and let the participants fund it. If some programs can generate a profit - generate one.

[Ralph]

It's easier than that. Make every student meet the same accedemic standards!

Zero exceptions. They must work toward a degree in a declared subject.

This would clean up this up quickly.

Agree. it always anoyed me that my kids had to work hard and have high scores to get into F, and the football players had much lower scores, had the best facilities for training (other students used older gym), and even closer vehicle parking.

Make every student jump thru the same hoops for entry, and after they are admitted, they can knock on the coachs door, and say "I just got admitted to your school, and BTW I can play football, baskerball, etc ". Make campus hero's out of Math and science majors, and the University President s/b the highest paid person on campus. You can probably tell what I think of college sports.

[merckx]

JR - that's what I thought. Taken as a whole, college athletics are a major economic drain on the school and students, and the few large programs generally subsidize the multiple unprofitable programs.

Cut all of it and let the participants fund it. If some programs can generate a profit - generate one.

I don't agree that students should fund their participation in sport, just like I don't believe that musicians or students who pursue other life-enhancing activities should. These extra-curricular activities can profoundly enhance and compliment the academic work done in the classroom. Higher academic institutions should support this endeavor. The professionalization of sport in these institutions should be abolished.

[FlashUNC]

I thought a sports scholarship was a privilege but the prevailing attitude today is entitlement.

They're hardly a great deal for everyone. Effectively four, one-year scholarships that the team reserves the right to yank for nearly any reason. Get hurt and you may be on your own and out the door.

Nobody goes to a Carolina basketball game or an Alabama football game to see the athletic directors. The players generate all the buzz and fan interest. Why shouldn't they be part of the rewards of their labors?

From my perspective, their reward for playing is, well, more labor to earn a degree. "Here, for all your hard work at this unrelated thing, here's some more work."

The European club model isn't perfect either, but it at least has enough sense to bifurcate academics and athletics.

[Aaron O]

I don't agree that students should fund their participation in sport, just like I don't believe that musicians or students who pursue other life-enhancing activities should. These extra-curricular activities can profoundly enhance and compliment the academic work done in the classroom. Higher academic institutions should support this endeavor. The professionalization of sport in these institutions should be abolished.

Please explain to me how throwing a football, or rowing a boat, compliments academic work.

[katematt]

My daughter is on her way to one of these big schools next year on a full scholarship to play tennis. Not UNC although that school was considered.

Honestly can't figure out where I fall in all of this, but my family has clearly benefited from a large football program and title 9. I'll say this, she's had straight A's for years and had a dream to play for a high level division 1 school in a sport that she loves.

She could probably turn pro, but has committed herself to going to school. May not be able to join the neuro science department with her athletic responsibilities, but I am sure will work hard and get a good education. Everyone that I met in the program, including team members could not speak highly enough about their experience.

Just hope it all doesn't come crumbling down.

[merckx]

Please explain to me how throwing a football, or rowing a boat, compliments academic work.

I can speak to this from an intimate perspective. I am a rowing coach at one of the most prestigious academic colleges in the world. The solutions that my athletes learn, when striving for perfection while under extreme duress, are both physical and cerebral. They take the things that they learn in the physical realm and use them in the academic realm. It works the other way too. I work with really self-actualized kids, and part of the fabric of who they are is derived from what they learn through athletics. It is no secret that athletes with a good education are highly desirable recruits for industries that require working under pressure, critical thought, team work etc. Don't under-value what sport can do for the development of an individual, if you let it.

[Aaron O]

I can speak to this from an intimate perspective. I am a rowing coach at one of the most prestigious academic colleges in the world. The solutions that my athletes learn, when striving for perfection while under extreme duress, are both physical and cerebral. They take the things that they learn in the physical realm and use them in the academic realm. It works the other way too. I work with really self-actualized kids, and part of the fabric of who they are is derived from what they learn through athletics. It is no secret that athletes with a good education are highly desirable recruits for industries that require working under pressure, critical thought, team work etc. Don't under-value what sport can do for the development of an individual, if you let it.

You're not really trying to sell this line of ···· with a straight face are you? Throwing out corporate hokie like self actualization may sound good in your funding proposal, but it's non-sense, and you know it. The solutions that your athletes learn while under duress?

They row a boat. Calculus this is not.

:hello:

[merckx]

You're not really trying to sell this line of ···· with a straight face are you? Throwing out corporate hokie like self actualization may sound good in your funding proposal, but it's non-sense, and you know it. The solutions that your athletes learn while under duress?

They row a boat. Calculus this is not.

:hello:

You sound like a few of my pals who are profs at the college!

[Aaron O]

You sound like a few of my pals who are profs at the college!

:p

I've gotten roped in to doing a lot of HR recently - and there is nothing more full of crap than HR. I'm an expert on smelling BS while having to shovel it right now.

[merckx]

:p

I've gotten roped in to doing a lot of HR recently - and there is nothing more full of crap than HR. I'm an expert on smelling BS while having to shovel it right now.

PS: it's not BS but you wouldn't know that from the outside looking in.

[Aaron O]

PS: it's not BS but you wouldn't know that from the outside looking in.

Fair.

:beer:

[Ralph]

Most likely athletes in a rowing program at one of the "most prestigious academic colleges in the world" are a little different animal than the average large state university football player.

[merckx]

Most likely athletes in a rowing program at one of the "most prestigious academic colleges in the world" are a little different animal than the average large state university football player.

Correct, and for the reasons stated at the start of the thread.

[jr59]

Most likely athletes in a rowing program at one of the "most prestigious academic colleges in the world" are a little different animal than the average large state university football player.


THE QUESTION would be; How many/much exceptions did the program get to compete? I would tend to think that rowing, as well as tennis does not have anywhere near the exceptions to get in to school as basketball or football.

Good students that are athletes are not really what we are talking about!

[FlashUNC]

The revenue sports have been a clear race to the bottom. No one wants to miss out on the player that could win them a conference or national title, or a big tournament.

[Aaron O]

THE QUESTION would be; How many/much exceptions did the program get to compete? I would tend to think that rowing, as well as tennis does not have anywhere near the exceptions to get in to school as basketball or football.

Good students that are athletes are not really what we are talking about!

You'd be amazed. I had a friend who was getting gifts for being on the golf team.

[oldpotatoe]

I'll bet you a Coca-Cola the lawyer's primary motivation is money. I have a friend who's an attorney and he said he went into the profession not because of a calling or passion but because his mom wanted him to make money. I was gobsmacked to hear that.

Really? You must not know many attorneys. If they want to look for passion or a calling, be a public defender. The rest, on both sides, are in it for the $. Maybe not DAs, they are just a slice above some 'Wyatt Earp' cops.