Lemond Holds no Grudge [Archive]

bcroslin

01-22-2015, 07:32 AM

I believe this will be the year that we leave Lance behind. The Tour Down Under is underway and by the end of July we will have heard the last of it. IMO Lance has been keeping a pretty low profile which he should. I fully realize it's probably all part of his PR plan but he's doing the right things. The media keeps stirring the pot and unfortunately Greg continues to engage in the story line they feed him. The media lives for controversy and they will continue to stoke the flames until people get bored. Well, I for one am bored as I think are the rest of us. Greg needs to hire an assistant that will keep the media away and stop engaging in Lance rants. He'll be better for it in the long run. Focus on the new company and being an ambassador for the sport and when a journalist asks him about Lance his response should be "who?"

jr59

01-22-2015, 07:32 AM

When you win 3 tours and then someone comes around and makes you life hell for a decade - so much so CAT IVs on the internet call you a baby, bike shop owners who sell Trek won't even look at you - then you can judge - till then you might want to STFU.

Wow,....just plain wow!

Since when has this forum not allowed opinions, I am truly hurt.

Sorry my opinion of both of these 2 cry babies is very low. You feel differently and thats ok, by me.

I refuse to tell anyone what their opinion is or should be. I also really doubt you go thru real life telling people such things!

bcroslin

01-22-2015, 07:35 AM

Funny enough, he never said a peep about dopers who affected his cycling results. Where is the outrage about Hinault, Kelly, Roche, Fignon, and Indurain? It was only when Armstrong equaled his record that he decided to make an issue of doping. Now that Armstrong is gone he is hanging out with Indurain and praising Pantani.

right on cue. ad hominem as usual.

FlashUNC

01-22-2015, 07:42 AM

I'm Team Greg on this one.

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 07:44 AM

right on que. ad hominem as usual.

Talking about yourself I assume.

Really. When will LeMond start complaining about Hinault and Kelly and Indurain and Roche? There seems to be a pattern where he compains about Americans who dope while he praises riders of other countries who are just as dirty.

ergott

01-22-2015, 07:46 AM

The best comment to kill a story is "no comment". Problem is if he does that he will lose relevancy and name brand recognition. Press is press and he want's to sell bikes.

I say this with the upmost respect for his accomplishments on the bike.

binxnyrwarrsoul

01-22-2015, 07:46 AM

Talking about yourself I assume.

Really. When will LeMond start complaining about Hinault and Kelly and Indurain and Roche? There seems to be a pattern where he compains about Americans who dope while he praises riders of other countries who are just as dirty.

Maybe because Indurain and Pantani didn't try to end him?

Imo, I agree he should change the subject when asked about "that," and focus on his bike line. And get a damn steel fork for that Washoe.

ergott

01-22-2015, 07:47 AM

Alright guys, how about discussing the topic and not attacking each other? Cool?

redir

01-22-2015, 07:49 AM

I'm Team Greg on this one.

The truth causes all kinds of butt-hurt for some I guess <shrugs>

gasman

01-22-2015, 07:49 AM

Discussion is acceptable while attacking each other may result in closing this thread.

William

01-22-2015, 07:51 AM

Discussion is acceptable while attacking each other may result in closing this thread.

...and maybe even a time out.:no:

I know cabin fever has set in in some areas, but let's keep this cordial and on the level.

William

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 07:59 AM

Maybe because Indurain and Pantani didn't try to end him?

When Armstrong equaled LeMond's TdF record, LeMond attacked Armstrong in the press. He played stupid, as in, "Gee, I sure hope he isn't doping." LeMond was not naive and he was not stupid. He knew full well that doping was rampant in pro cycling and had been for a hundred years. He knew the chance of finding someone racing clean at that level was as slim as the chance of finding a leprechaun. So why did he make it an issue?

abalone

01-22-2015, 08:09 AM

When Armstrong equaled LeMond's TdF record, LeMond attacked Armstrong in the press. He played stupid, as in, "Gee, I sure hope he isn't doping." LeMond was not naive and he was not stupid. He knew full well that doping was rampant in pro cycling and had been for a hundred years. He knew the chance of finding someone racing clean at that level was as slim as the chance of finding a leprechaun. So why did he make it an issue?

No. That's not true. When Armstrong win those Tours he was doing so while using EPO under the direction of Dr. Michele Ferrari. A lot of media rightfully questioned that association and asked for comment from several people. Lemond offered a real and truthful comment that said that illegal drug use is unethical. Armstrong later stated that it was not only ok to use illegal drugs, but necessary for hm because he wasn't capable of winning.

Davist

01-22-2015, 08:11 AM

More concerned about the price of the (washoe) bike going up $500.. just got outta reach for this guy..

I think, as above, any publicity is good publicity when you're trying to sell something. Tired of this story, though. Hope '15 will be the year we turn the page.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 08:24 AM

When Armstrong equaled LeMond's TdF record, LeMond attacked Armstrong in the press. He played stupid, as in, "Gee, I sure hope he isn't doping." LeMond was not naive and he was not stupid. He knew full well that doping was rampant in pro cycling and had been for a hundred years. He knew the chance of finding someone racing clean at that level was as slim as the chance of finding a leprechaun. So why did he make it an issue?

Yep. That's true. Lemond involved himself, made it personal, and continued to stay unnecessarily involved for the entire "decade of hell" in question, and since. I have no more sympathy for him than Armstrong. Like Armstrong, everything you see that guy do is for personal gratification.

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 08:37 AM

I refuse to tell anyone what their opinion is or should be. I also really doubt you go thru real life telling people such things!

You saying that LeMond should shut up is you telling him what his opinion should be - I'm flummoxed on how anyone can't see that.

And, yea, I've been right in front of other ammeter racers and told them pretty much in verbatim the same thing I said on this board. I should not have said "STFU" - no cool on my part and for that I apologize for my bad judgement.

The guy's entire life was throw into a tail spin for ten years - his legacy, his achievements, his business all for what - telling the truth - let him get it out if you don't agree with it, then don't listen or read the story.

93legendti

01-22-2015, 08:41 AM

abalone

01-22-2015, 08:44 AM

Yep. That's true. Lemond involved himself, made it personal, and continued to stay unnecessarily involved for the entire "decade of hell" in question, and since. I have no more sympathy for him than Armstrong. Like Armstrong, everything you see that guy do is for personal gratification.

That's not true. Armstrong carried a personal vendetta against anyone that spoke the truth about Michele Ferrari, or really anyone who dared question his drug use. He ruined several people's careers and needlessly filed lawsuits and attacked people's families. He even admitted to doing so. People like Frankie and Betsy Andreu, Emma O'Reilly, Mike Anderson, Greg Lemond, David Walsh. The list is long. Lemond had a great bike business before Armstrong used his connections with Trek and their dealer network to end Greg's business. Don't construe this any other way. It was Armstrong that made and carried these personal grudges to the point of ruining people's careers and businesses.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 08:57 AM

Black Dog

01-22-2015, 09:03 AM

When people attacked him, he counter-attacked. He took it too far, sure.. but how does that exonerate them from the responsibility they bear for trying to bring the man down? Nobody was innocent. Everyone was acting in their own interest. Some won for a while, everyone lost in the end. Except Armstrong- he's still rich and famous.

Exactly what responsibility does one bear when trying to bring down a cheat? By the way, Lemond gave 4 interviews in what 8 years? How was he in the fight?

abalone

01-22-2015, 09:04 AM

When people attacked him, he counter-attacked. He took it too far, sure.. but how does that exonerate them from the responsibility they bear for trying to bring the man down? Nobody was innocent. Everyone was acting in their own interest. Some won for a while, everyone lost in the end. Except Armstrong- he's still rich and famous.

That's not true. Just because Armstrong is guilty and has personally ruined people's careers doesn't mean that others did. People were innocent and they got screwed over by Armstrong.

malcolm

01-22-2015, 09:05 AM

That's not true. Armstrong carried a personal vendetta against anyone that spoke the truth about Michele Ferrari, or really anyone who dared question his drug use. He ruined several people's careers and needlessly filed lawsuits and attacked people's families. He even admitted to doing so. People like Frankie and Betsy Andreu, Emma O'Reilly, Mike Anderson, Greg Lemond, David Walsh. The list is long. Lemond had a great bike business before Armstrong used his connections with Trek and their dealer network to end Greg's business. Don't construe this any other way. It was Armstrong that made and carried these personal grudges to the point of ruining people's careers and businesses.

No Armstrong fan and becoming less of a Lemond fan all the time. It takes two to tango. It was not about speaking the truth all these guys speak the truth when it's favorable to them, it was about protecting the image and empire and he did it ruthlessly. He didn't create doping and I doubt he had to twist any arms to get people on board, but with his drive, charisma and connections he did help, with others in bringing it to a whole new level. What does he deserve for that, well I suspect whatever he gets.

When you are the focal point when it's good and you receive most of the bounty you have to expect to be the focal point when the bottom drops out and be the one ingesting the most excrement. He made his bed, took his calculated chances and he'll have to live with the outcome.

I for one would like to see him allowed to compete in tri events, but I wouldn't go out of my way to influence it one way or the other even if I had the power to do so.

After all the above I do wish they would both just move on and lets watch the up and comers.

It's hard to feel to bad for Lance I'm sure he is far from a life of misery and poverty.

ergott

01-22-2015, 09:13 AM

No doubt he was slighted for many years by the Lance machine, but it's time to make a transition from relying on his racing career (and resulting turmoil) for selling his goods to a focus on how good the stuff is. That will be a better foundation for longevity.

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 09:19 AM

If I had reporters coming and asking my wife about my heroine addition. If my name was mud and my kids had to see it (go visit Lemond's Facebook page and read the comments from LA fanboys - they literally comment on his son's posts and call him names no one should ever have to hear).

It's all right there, you see LA on video in a depoisition saying "It's well know the guy is a drunk and has substance issues."

Say whatever you want about LeMond, but what you can't say is that he lied. Say whatever you want about LA, but what you can't say is that he told the truth.

Well if the above had happened to me and I had to go through that for ten years. Repeat: ten years.

Yea, my axe, I'd still be grinding it.

Maybe not you, but I sure as heck would.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 09:21 AM

abalone

01-22-2015, 09:26 AM

Nobody in this story is innocent. Nobody.

That's not true. There were lots of innocent people that were affected. Armstrong filed a civil suit against David Walsh. What did he do? Armstrong slandered and ruined Emma O'Reilly's career, as well as got her booted from her job on Team Motorola. What did she do? This is a recurring theme. There were many innocent people that got screwed over by Armstrong. Many.

Black Dog

01-22-2015, 09:39 AM

Nobody in this story is innocent. Nobody.

Can you provide any proof of this claim?

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 09:43 AM

Nobody in this story is innocent. Nobody.

False. Completely false.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 09:44 AM

That's not true. There were lots of innocent people that were affected. Armstrong filed a civil suit against David Walsh. What did he do? He slandered and ruined Emma O'Reilly's career, as well as got her booted from her job on Team Motorola. What did she do? This is a recurring theme. There were many innocent people that got screwed over by Armstrong. Many.

LOL... "what did he do?" He did the same thing all of these people did- singled out Lance and tried to bring him down. All of the lying and overreacting Lance did was in response to people trying to single him out and bring him down, and nobody expects him to defend against that? Do you think anyone in his situation would have just lied down and died the first time anyone made an accusation against him? I'm not saying it's right- but he didn't start any of it.

And the reason Lance's response was so toxic and hateful was because of the nature of the whole thing. People trying to jockey for gratification from his downfall - for personal profit (David Walsh, Tyler Hamilton, etc), for personal vendetta (Bitchy Andreau, Lemond), for pure revenge (Floyd Landis). NO innocents.

ergott

01-22-2015, 09:47 AM

abalone

01-22-2015, 09:48 AM

LOL... "what did he do?" He did the same thing all of these people did- singled out Lance and tried to bring him down. All of the lying and overreacting Lance did was in response to people trying to single him out and bring him down, and nobody expects him to defend against that? Do you think anyone in his situation would have just lied down and died the first time anyone made an accusation against him? I'm not saying it's right- but he didn't start any of it.

And the reason Lance's response was so toxic and hateful was because of the nature of the whole thing. People trying to jockey for gratification from his downfall - for personal profit (David Walsh, Tyler Hamilton, etc), for personal vendetta (Bitchy Andreau, Lemond), for pure revenge (Floyd Landis). NO innocents.

David Walsh is a reporter. He was doing his job. He didn't do anything to Armstrong to "bring Armstrong down". Armstrong cheated, did EPO, bribed people, and ruined people's careers. Armstrong brought himself down. It wasn't Walsh, or Lemond, or the Andreu's, or Emma O'Reilly. Those people were the victims of Armstrong's bullying tactics. These people are innocent, not Armstrong.

Jgrooms

01-22-2015, 09:51 AM

I feel sorry for GL. I wish I was his press agent.

GL: Do I think Armstrong's lifetime ban should be lifted? Well thats not my decision. If it were, no I do not. Now lets talk about this great race we just saw today...!

Move on. Be the ambassador for sport he claims to be and should / could be.

That would also further his op to rebuild his brand.

El Chaba

01-22-2015, 09:52 AM

I wonder when the Lance Immune System will finally shut down?......and is there any other Lance defense other than the increasingly pathetic "two wrongs make a right"?

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 09:56 AM

David Walsh is a reporter. He was doing his job. He didn't do anything to Armstrong to "bring Armstrong down". Armstrong cheated, did EPO, bribed people, and ruined people's careers. Armstrong brought himself down. It wasn't Walsh, or Lemond, or the Andreu's, or Emma O'Reilly. Those people were the victims of Armstrong's bullying tactics. These people are innocent, not Armstrong.

They involved themselves, shouldered themselves to the front of the lines, and made life-ruinous accusations against him. They stepped up to the mic, basked in the glow of public attention, and tried to improve their station, or their sour mood, by bringing the man down. David Walsh stalked the guy and heckled him at public appearances- that's not "just doing his job." That's trying to make a name for himself and profit, on the hope of Lances downfall.

Yea- everyone knows Lance cheated. All of his contemporaries cheated. That's pretty irrelevant, actually.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 10:03 AM

Sounds like you are making out Lace to be a martyr.

Curious why you single out Andreu and call her bitchy.

By Lance's own admission he screwed a lot of people over. I don't know why you see it differently.

Lance doesn't think he screwed anyone over. He's a textbook Cluster B/anti-social... i.e., sociopath. He has always, and will always, say whatever he thinks is gonna benefit him the most. Right now he thinks the appearance of repentance will do that. And he's right.

Likewise - Becky Andreau fits a perfect DSM-5 definition of "bitchy."

ergott

01-22-2015, 10:13 AM

I think Galileo would have better results here.

Jgrooms

01-22-2015, 10:21 AM

How about instead of a rehash of old positions, lets do a yes or no?

Ban lifted? Ya know the article linked sub.

Yes.

jr59

01-22-2015, 10:22 AM

I think Galileo would have better results here.

Gandi couldn't help on this

ergott

01-22-2015, 10:24 AM

How about instead of a rehash of old positions, lets do a yes or no?

Ban lifted? Ya know the article linked sub.

Yes.

I say no. Time for the sport to move on, or at least try to. I'm not naive enough to believe all is well these days. Honestly I pay almost no attention to pro level sports anymore.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 10:26 AM

How about instead of a rehash of old positions, lets do a yes or no?

Ban lifted? Ya know the article linked sub.

Yes.

Part of me wants to see him compete. Pro sports are for the spectators, afterall- otherwise they wouldn't pay, and wouldn't be "pro."

The other part of me can't stand the guy, and thinks a lifetime ban is appropriate for someone who will live the rest of that lifetime in luxurious comfort garnered from lies.

So I guess my answer is: I'm glad it's not up to me.

93legendti

01-22-2015, 10:29 AM

No one is innocent. Emma was paid for her story, but lied and said she wasn't. Paying a source is dirty journalism.

Walsh?

'Former personal soigneur to Lance Armstrong turned whistleblower, Emma O’Reilly has strongly criticised the journalist David Walsh in her new book published today...

However, looking back now she feels Walsh was simply out to “get Lance”, became overly obsessive and exploited her...

“So I just feel I was exploited by him, and the Sunday Times. I also feel David got too single-minded about his story...

“In my mind, however, I always felt that it wasn’t Lance or any of the riders who were the problem. It was the whole culture of cycling.”'

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/david-walsh-exploited-me-and-hung-me-out-to-dry-to-get-lance-at-my-expense-emma-oreilly/

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 10:35 AM

How about instead of a rehash of old positions, lets do a yes or no?

Ban lifted? Ya know the article linked sub.

Yes.

Why, why, why even consider it. He had his chance, multiple times, and he snubbed it. No - ban stays in place.

FlashUNC

01-22-2015, 10:41 AM

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 11:34 AM

Here is Betsy's post on the very story listed in the OP. I myself tend not to judge victims - especially victims that suffered so long. If they want to forgive them, so be it, if they not so be it. They suffered we observed. With that said: here is her response (cue the - 'she's a psycho' crowd).

Kudos to Greg LeMond. I too am sick of the rhetoric lies. I was the intermediary between Lance and Greg; I relayed Greg's message to lance that he would talk to him but face to face and not over the phone. Lance never ever made an effort to contact Greg after that. In July of 2013 with Kathy LeMond copied on an email to lance and tiring of lance's claim that Greg wouldn't talk to him, I sent an email again stating that Greg would meet him. He did nothing and continues to lie about it. Armstrong's delusion is alive and well. He said that he thought Alex Gibney portrayed him as "more untruthful than he was" here (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bombshell-scientology-film-revealed-alex-764849). Someone has to call him out on the BS. He not only deserves to be banned from all sports for life, but he should be in jail. After everything, he has the gall to stop at nothing to continue the armstrong lie. His only purpose in sport is as an example.

BumbleBeeDave

01-22-2015, 11:41 AM

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 11:43 AM

Exactly what responsibility does one bear when trying to bring down a cheat?

LeMond did not get involved to "bring down a cheat." He was and still is perfectly fine with riders of his era who doped. He will go on and on about how he was robbed of the 1985 Tour because he followed team orders but won't way a word about Hinault using so much corticosteroids that he injured himself. He won't say a word about Indurain taking so much EPO that he had to set an alarm clock to go off in the middle of night. LeMond spoke against Armstrong for reasons of ego. It was because Armstrong had eclipsed him in the public's eye.

His business suffered because he made the decision to offer controversial comments to the press. Company figureheads are usually smart enough not to rant about gays or abortion or one political party in public because they know there will be blowback from a large percentage of consumers. LeMond was not that smart or decided his ego was more valuable than his business.

abalone

01-22-2015, 11:47 AM

No one is innocent. Emma was paid for her story, but lied and said she wasn't. Paying a source is dirty journalism.

Walsh?

'Former personal soigneur to Lance Armstrong turned whistleblower, Emma O�Reilly has strongly criticised the journalist David Walsh in her new book published today...

However, looking back now she feels Walsh was simply out to �get Lance�, became overly obsessive and exploited her...

�So I just feel I was exploited by him, and the Sunday Times. I also feel David got too single-minded about his story...

�In my mind, however, I always felt that it wasn�t Lance or any of the riders who were the problem. It was the whole culture of cycling.�'

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/david-walsh-exploited-me-and-hung-me-out-to-dry-to-get-lance-at-my-expense-emma-oreilly/

So twisting of the truth. Care to post a link?

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 11:56 AM

Walsh?

'Former personal soigneur to Lance Armstrong turned whistleblower, Emma O�Reilly has strongly criticised the journalist David Walsh in her new book published today...

However, looking back now she feels Walsh was simply out to �get Lance�, became overly obsessive and exploited her...

�So I just feel I was exploited by him, and the Sunday Times. I also feel David got too single-minded about his story...

The funny thing about Walsh is he cashed in by becoming Team Sky's chief propagandist and regularly attacks anyone who doubts the Sky Miracle. The stuff he wrote in his books about Sky and Froome is hilarious. Both books are one giant con job designed to fool the British yokels who don't know much about cycling.

It turns out doping was never the issue. It was always about a good story. Bad American doper = good story. Plucky Brits showing the rest of the world how cycling should be done = good story. Questions about how Froome and Porte can climb as fast as Armstrong = Bad story.

malcolm

01-22-2015, 12:02 PM

Absolutely not. The ban stays.

Lance only decided that telling the truth was the right thing to do after the fact when it could actually bring him some benefits, and I haven't seen or read anything that resembles a sincere apology from the man. I really don't think he has that kind of empathy in him.

If that means he doesn't make the 2024 curling team, so be it.

this is true for the overwhelming majority of them, no one told the tell until it was in their best interest or they had no choice or limited choices. I don't mean this to be apologetic for Lance as I've said before he made his bed, now snuggle up.

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 12:06 PM

Greg was an idol of mine growing up, as I have stated many times before. Somewhere along the way we got sideways — I think it was about 15 years ago. I haven’t spoken to him since then. I’m sure my results on the road and actions off the road were troublesome to him along the way, and for that I am sorry. But honestly, at this point, isn’t it better that we all move forward and stop the rhetoric, in order to build a better future for cycling? I’m in. Anyone else?

And here is what I love - this was sent to a velonews reporter via text. So, you get asked a question - respond via text and offer a thin apology via proxy and text. Get. Bent.

Grant McLean

01-22-2015, 12:18 PM

LOL... "what did he do?" He did the same thing all of these people did- singled out Lance and tried to bring him down. All of the lying and overreacting Lance did was in response to people trying to single him out and bring him down

In what alternative fantasy universe can you say that Lance was "singled out"?

Just from his post-cancer return around 1998 to Lance's retirement,
there were hundreds of doping cases against other riders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling#1998

Brochard, Casagrande, Dufaux, Herve, Leblanc, Massi, Moreau, Rous,
Stephens, Virenque, Zulle, Diercksens, Pantani, Roux, Berzin, Hamburger,
Garzelli, Rumsas, Simoni, Vandenbroucke, De Clercq, Gonzalez de Galdeano,
Planckarert, Fuentes, Bruylandts, Camenzind, Di Luca, Hamilton, Meirhaeghe,
Miller, Petrov, Guidi, Heras, Hondo, Landaluze, Basso, Landis, Scarponi,
Ullrich, Piepoli, Petacchi, Sinkewitz, Vinokourov, Mayo....

Need I go on?

How anyone can say with a straight face that Armstrong was "singled out"
is laughable.

-g

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 12:19 PM

Lance only decided that telling the truth was the right thing to do after the fact when it could actually bring him some benefits, and I haven't seen or read anything that resembles a sincere apology from the man.

Apology for doping? Why? I'll take Armstrong's, Landis', or Ricco's unapologetic acknowledgement of what was required to race in that environment over the kabuki theater that everyone else engages in by pretending they are sorry, they made a mistake, they gave into temptation, etc. I am sick of these guys crying crocodile tears for doing what was required to realize their dreams.

bcroslin

01-22-2015, 12:23 PM

David Walsh stalked the guy and heckled him at public appearances- that's not "just doing his job."

Sorry but you're wrong. David Walsh was doing his job as a sports journalist. You may not like it but he was doing EXACTLY what he's paid to do. Same as the journalists who broke the story about Pete Rose betting on baseball games. Same as the journalist who made the Balco connection with Barry Bonds. Armstrong sued Walsh, lied under oath and did everything in his power to discredit Walsh and ruin him.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 12:24 PM

In what alternative fantasy universe can you say that Lance was "singled out"?

How anyone can say with a straight face that Armstrong was "singled out"
is laughable.

-g

Well I wont "laugh" at you, but how you can think he wasn't singled out is equally strange to me. All of the cyclists you list are mere mentions in the doping story as we know it today. These people we are talking about here made Lance the very face of doping.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 12:26 PM

Sorry but you're wrong. David Walsh was doing his job as a sports journalist. You may not like it but he was doing EXACTLY what he's paid to do. Same as the journalists who broke the story about Pete Rose betting on baseball games. Same as the journalist who made the Balco connection with Barry Bonds. Armstrong sued Walsh, lied under oath and did everything in his power to discredit Walsh and ruin him.

A lone guy stalking and heckling an athlete is the same as the collective mass of journalists breaking actual/factual stories on doping? The dude had no story- so he helped create one. In the end, he was right- Lance was a lying doping cheat. But that was totally beside the point, for him.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 12:29 PM

There were plenty of journalists who reported on Lance. He was the only one making it personal.

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 12:45 PM

Sorry but you're wrong. David Walsh was doing his job as a sports journalist. You may not like it but he was doing EXACTLY what he's paid to do.

Walsh practices a strange form of journalism. He came up with a journalism doozy. According to Walsh those who doubt Sky are frustrated Armstrong and Contador fans. He compared them to the mob calling for the freedom of Barabbas instead of embracing Jesus.

You don't see Walsh hot on the trail of how a nobody like Froome had a mid career transformation at the same team where several other riders had similar unexplainable leaps in performance.

Black Dog

01-22-2015, 12:50 PM

LeMond did not get involved to "bring down a cheat." He was and still is perfectly fine with riders of his era who doped. He will go on and on about how he was robbed of the 1985 Tour because he followed team orders but won't way a word about Hinault using so much corticosteroids that he injured himself. He won't say a word about Indurain taking so much EPO that he had to set an alarm clock to go off in the middle of night. LeMond spoke against Armstrong for reasons of ego. It was because Armstrong had eclipsed him in the public's eye.

His business suffered because he made the decision to offer controversial comments to the press. Company figureheads are usually smart enough not to rant about gays or abortion or one political party in public because they know there will be blowback from a large percentage of consumers. LeMond was not that smart or decided his ego was more valuable than his business.

Wait, Lemond has said that he was pushed out of the sport by the introduction of EPO in the early 90's. I agree that Indurain has been given a massive pass on all of this, perhaps because he was a nice guy who played the doping game but never tried to harm anyone who challenged him. As for other dopers of his era, I do not know why he does not mention much about it, but I could suppose that it is because the doping available back then was no where near as effective as the oxygen vector drugs like EPO. Lemond would have beat these guys if they were on do or not because there was no drug that was increasing V02 max. I would love to hear his thoughts on this matter however.

As for his business suffering because of his comments, well, I think nothing would have come of it if Lance had not started gunning for him after Greg made the very equivocal comment about the greatest sporting achievement or fraud. Blame Greg for being honest and putting the truth before his personal gains.

binxnyrwarrsoul

01-22-2015, 12:52 PM

Black Dog

01-22-2015, 12:55 PM

Apology for doping? Why? I'll take Armstrong's, Landis', or Ricco's unapologetic acknowledgement of what was required to race in that environment over the kabuki theater that everyone else engages in by pretending they are sorry, they made a mistake, they gave into temptation, etc. I am sick of these guys crying crocodile tears for doing what was required to realize their dreams.

How about an apology for the real emotional and finical harm he caused to those who spoke about against him. Not for his doping for his bullying.

Grant McLean

01-22-2015, 12:55 PM

Well I wont "laugh" at you, but how you can think he wasn't singled out is equally strange to me.

You mean WADA was created just to bring down Lance?

There has been a systematic war on doping in sports for decades -
the point of which was to end the "arms race" in which rampant
drug use was causing the deaths of young athletes.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/feb/16/cycling.cycling1

Maybe try a more realistic view of the anti-doping movement
through the lens of history, and not just "the Lance Armstrong story".

-g

Since January 2003, the following eight riders have died from heart attacks:

Denis Zanette (Italy)

Died January 11 2003, aged 32

Zanette, right, collapsed after visiting the dentist. Instantly linked to the use of the blood-booster EPO, which led to an outcry in Italy and demands for stricter drug controls.

Marco Ceriani (Italy)

Died May 5, aged 16

An elite amateur, Ceriani experienced a heart attack during a race, was admitted to hospital in a coma, and failed to recover consciousness.

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

Marco Rusconi (Italy)

Died November 14, aged 24

Rusconi was leaving the party of a friend last November when he collapsed and died in a shopping centre car park.

Jose Maria Jimenez (Spain)

Died December 6, aged 32

Died from a heart attack in a psychiatric hospital in Madrid. Had retired two years previously but consistently claimed a comeback was imminent.

Michel Zanoli (Netherlands)

Died December 29, aged 35

Zanoli, who retired in 1997, was 35 when he suffered a fatal heart attack.

Johan Sermon (Belgium)

Died February 15 2004, aged 21

Suffered an apparent heart failure in his sleep. Had reportedly gone to bed early to prepare for an eight-hour training ride.

Black Dog

01-22-2015, 12:56 PM

Well I wont "laugh" at you, but how you can think he wasn't singled out is equally strange to me. All of the cyclists you list are mere mentions in the doping story as we know it today. These people we are talking about here made Lance the very face of doping.

Lance was the very face of cycling!!!! He was the Lance Armstrong of cycling...this is what made him the face of doping in cycling when he was outed. He became the Lance Armstrong of Doping. 2+2=4.

bluesea

01-22-2015, 12:57 PM

Lemond's *thing* for Armstrong has become part of the problem. Its not about Armstrong anymore, and if it is, the war on doping is stuck in the past and has been lost.

rain dogs

01-22-2015, 01:05 PM

Mr. Cunego Fan.

You're being a little loose and biased with history to support your argument.

1. Lemond was 'supportive' of Lance in one Tour - 1999. He has said many times: in 2000 that he heard too many damning things to continue his support. So, that is not changing his tune when LA equalled his record as you claim.

2. Lemond has said many times about the two-speeds of the peloton in his career, and that led to much of his work on sports physiology. Did he make pointed accusations, no. But he called out many riders 'generally' But could he, to the point of offering proof vs conjecture, no. With Lance he did because he was fighting for his livelihood, which is very different than with others. He took a risk, and it turns out he was right.

I ask you: Do you feel that you are able to be objective with this story? If so, fine. If not, fine. We all have bias, and that doesn't prevent anyone from commenting, but those trying to influence others with their bias is a behavior helpful to be aware of.

The thrust of LeMond's comments are: If Lance doesn't deserve a lifetime ban then who does? Which requires a nuanced assessment of ethics within the sport and business.

I've asked you directly the same question before:

If Lance doesn't deserve a lifetime ban then who does? Whose violations and ethical behavior in the business and sport that is pro cycling were proven to be more bankrupted than LA? (Even unproven, there are none so deserving I can think of. Perhaps you can name a rider, and support that name with evidence of whose fouls were even more appalling than those of LA?)

ergott

01-22-2015, 01:07 PM

These people we are talking about here made Lance the very face of doping.

Lance has himself to blame for being the face of doping. He gained the most from it, he denied it the most, made donations to the UCI, and he tried to destroyed anyone who got it his way. He didn't need anyone's help to become the posterboy.

josephr

01-22-2015, 01:10 PM

He clearly said he could care less. :)

this story is akin to Jennifer Anniston's breakup from Brad Pitt, Kim Kardashians' booty, Michael Phelps' bong hits, Toyota recalls, dingo ate my baby story....for some dang reason, it just won't die.

rain dogs

01-22-2015, 01:17 PM

this story is akin to Jennifer Anniston's breakup from Brad Pitt, Kim Kardashians' booty, Michael Phelps' bong hits, Toyota recalls, dingo ate my baby story....for some dang reason, it just won't die.

Because there are still people out there who believe the "stars" of the cycling world were somehow so bright, so excellent, that their downfall can only be that life somehow cheated them out of what they deserve. Celebrities, idols... they are "unreal", they don't need to answer to reality.

Pantani, was "murdered."
Lance, "just did as the others."

The truth sucks, but people will argue for their illusion , until.... maybe forever.

KJMUNC

01-22-2015, 01:18 PM

wow.

ergott

01-22-2015, 01:18 PM

firerescuefin

01-22-2015, 01:26 PM

There were plenty of journalists who reported on Lance. He was the only one making it personal.

No...He was the one that wasn't toe'ing the Armstrong company line. Lance had a well known policy for dealing with only the journalist that would play his game and aggressively freezing out the rest. At his apex, he certainly wielded enough clout (and utilized that) to craft his own story. If you didn't have access to Lance....what were you going to write about.

Dude was a world class @-hole to everyone and made it personal with anyone that he perceived stood in his way....and by the way he attempted to destroy folks that would spew/support his lies. That goes way beyond "making it personal"

Walsh wasn't right by chance. He was right, because he knew better. He wasn't an altruist, but he certainly wasn't a villain.

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 01:34 PM

There were plenty of journalists who reported on Lance. He was the only one making it personal.

Again. False. Completely False. Where, exactly, do you get this stuff - aside from just making it out of thin air.

The guy got a federal investigation shut down. And you think other journalists were reporting on him. Who? Supply links. Or would you like to see the time Kimmage got his butt chewed out, by Lance, in a room full of other journalists at the tail end of Lance's comeback.

Aside from Walsh and Kimmage everyone, and I mean everyone, fell in line with the Captain America hero of Cancer story.

"You don't have a patent on cancer." Paul Kimmage to Lance - right to his freakin' lying face. Hard. Freaking. Core. Truth. Sorry it hurts, but it's the way it is.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 01:38 PM

No...He was the one that wasn't toe'ing the Armstrong company line. Lance had a well known policy for dealing with only the journalist that would play his game and aggressively freezing out the rest. At his apex, he certainly wielded enough clout (and utilized that) to craft his own story. If you didn't have access to Lance....what were you going to write about.

Dude was a world class @-hole to everyone and made it personal with anyone that he perceived stood in his way....and by the way he attempted to destroy folks that would spew/support his lies. That goes way beyond "making it personal"

Walsh wasn't right by chance. He was right, because he knew better. He wasn't an altruist, but he certainly wasn't a villain.

In a village full of villains, everyones a villain. Some people debating me are acting like I'm taking a side. Lance is a dirtybag- I made my opinion of him clear earlier on. But unlike some of you, I also have ZERO sympathy for all the other players, who continue to keep themselves in the story they claim to be victims of.

Nags&Ducs

01-22-2015, 01:39 PM

That's not true. Just because Armstrong is guilty and has personally ruined people's careers doesn't mean that others did. People were innocent and they got screwed over by Armstrong.

Yep. I'm totally with you abalone.

LA attacked well before he was "attacked". Anytime a potential witness against him emerged, LA pre-emptively attacked with private threats to ruin them if they told the truth. How is that attacking after being attacked???

As for Greg not voicing his suspicions of his contemporaries, maybe it's because he beat them even when they were cheating. Why beat others down in the media when he already beat them in the field??? Also, I thought I read that it wasn't till EPO started to become more commonly used that Greg felt he couldn't compete against the new-age dopers. EPO started to be used in the late 80s from I've read. Prior to that, he could still beat the dopers who were using the methods at the time.

firerescuefin

01-22-2015, 01:46 PM

ergott

01-22-2015, 01:48 PM

who continue to keep themselves in the story they claim to be victims of.

To be fair, many had their credibility to defend, were sued, and/or were threatened with violence.

mg2ride

01-22-2015, 01:50 PM

.....The guy's entire life was throw into a tail spin for ten years - his legacy, his achievements, his business all for what.....

...for being a whiney ass Dbag that can't accept the fact that another American won (past tense) more than 2x the number of TDFs than him.

He is also bitter because damn near no one is interested in riding a bike with his name on it.

The real reason he is bitter is because 99% of the none cycling public in America doesn't even know who he is.

Try asking some friends and see what you get.

And another thing: I'd bet my left nit that GL took banned substances at some point in his career. He just didn't get caught.

Nags&Ducs

01-22-2015, 01:52 PM

Again. False. Completely False. Where, exactly, do you get this stuff - aside from just making it out of thin air.

The guy got a federal investigation shut down. And you think other journalists were reporting on him. Who? Supply links. Or would you like to see the time Kimmage got his butt chewed out, by Lance, in a room full of other journalists at the tail end of Lance's comeback.

Aside from Walsh and Kimmage everyone, and I mean everyone, fell in line with the Captain America hero of Cancer story.

"You don't have a patent on cancer." Paul Kimmage to Lance - right to his freakin' lying face. Hard. Freaking. Core. Truth. Sorry it hurts, but it's the way it is.

I wish that was on YouTube! Would've loved to see LA's face.

Well I wont "laugh" at you, but how you can think he wasn't singled out is equally strange to me. All of the cyclists you list are mere mentions in the doping story as we know it today. These people we are talking about here made Lance the very face of doping.

If he was singled out moreso than other dopers, maybe it was because he was such an asshole???

Nags&Ducs

01-22-2015, 01:58 PM

You mean WADA was created just to bring down Lance?

There has been a systematic war on doping in sports for decades -
the point of which was to end the "arms race" in which rampant
drug use was causing the deaths of young athletes.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/feb/16/cycling.cycling1

Maybe try a more realistic view of the anti-doping movement
through the lens of history, and not just "the Lance Armstrong story".

-g

Since January 2003, the following eight riders have died from heart attacks:

Denis Zanette (Italy)

Died January 11 2003, aged 32

Zanette, right, collapsed after visiting the dentist. Instantly linked to the use of the blood-booster EPO, which led to an outcry in Italy and demands for stricter drug controls.

Marco Ceriani (Italy)

Died May 5, aged 16

An elite amateur, Ceriani experienced a heart attack during a race, was admitted to hospital in a coma, and failed to recover consciousness.

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

Marco Rusconi (Italy)

Died November 14, aged 24

Rusconi was leaving the party of a friend last November when he collapsed and died in a shopping centre car park.

Jose Maria Jimenez (Spain)

Died December 6, aged 32

Died from a heart attack in a psychiatric hospital in Madrid. Had retired two years previously but consistently claimed a comeback was imminent.

Michel Zanoli (Netherlands)

Died December 29, aged 35

Zanoli, who retired in 1997, was 35 when he suffered a fatal heart attack.

Johan Sermon (Belgium)

Died February 15 2004, aged 21

Suffered an apparent heart failure in his sleep. Had reportedly gone to bed early to prepare for an eight-hour training ride.

Don't know if Steve Larsen should be mentioned in with that group. Iirc, He died of a heart attack while doing wind sprints on the track.

beeatnik

01-22-2015, 02:00 PM

Aside from Walsh and Kimmage everyone, and I mean everyone, fell in line with the Captain America hero of Cancer story.

"You don't have a patent on cancer." Paul Kimmage to Lance - right to his freakin' lying face. Hard. Freaking. Core. Truth. Sorry it hurts, but it's the way it is.

velomonkey, I like your style.

abalone

01-22-2015, 02:14 PM

He essentially apologizes for being a better cyclist than Greg and strives to minimize his own past actions ("we got sideways" and "actions off the road were troublesome to him along the way"--Uh, I think it was a BIT more than that), then tries to ally himself with a positive movement for a "better future for cycling" and imply that if Greg doesn't join him then he's not in favor of that better future. It comes across as slimy to anybody who really knows anything about the history, but positive and forgiving to those ignorant of what really happened. Typical PR speak attempting to control the message. It's very slick, and I would not be surprised if his handlers wrote it.

BBD

Greg was an idol of mine growing up, as I have stated many times before. Somewhere along the way we got sideways — I think it was about 15 years ago. I haven’t spoken to him since then. I’m sure my results on the road and actions off the road were troublesome to him along the way, and for that I am sorry. But honestly, at this point, isn’t it better that we all move forward and stop the rhetoric, in order to build a better future for cycling? I’m in. Anyone else?

Exactly. Everything Armstrong and his PR team of forum posters does is to put forth the image that Armstrong is on an even moral ground and even performance playing field as others. It's false.

Armstrong claims that everyone was using EPO. Not true. Sure, his closest competitors were busted, but not every single rider was, and he has no proof and only unfounded generalized opinion that everyone was using EPO. He does this to show that he was the best because on an even playing field because they all cheated. No way. Armstrong never would have won a grand tour. He wasn't capable of doing so without Dr. Ferrari and EPO.

Armstrong's PR team now wats to say that everyone was badmouthing everyone else. No. This also isn't true. This is the same PR smear tactic that Armstrong uses to try to equate himself with others now that he has admitted to bullying and ruining people. Armstrong was the biggest beneficiary or his cheating. He was the only one to file ridiculous frivolous lawsuits and used his personal connections with Trek's dealer network, and other cycling industry execs to get people fired and ruin people's businesses and careers. His own supporters to this day stalk Lemond's business facebook pages, as well as Greg's son with continual posting of lies about Lemond, his business, and his family.

DCilliams

01-22-2015, 02:17 PM

Interesting discussion. Reminded me of this Bill Burr clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YL04v-J5U

bironi

01-22-2015, 02:39 PM

Interesting discussion. Reminded me of this Bill Burr clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YL04v-J5U

Thanks. That was a great routine. I wish every bad thread had a payoff after reading pages of rehashed drivel. To be honest there were a few bits of coherent writing amongst the many pages. Thanks again for the laugh.

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 03:16 PM

1. Lemond was 'supportive' of Lance in one Tour - 1999. He has said many times: in 2000 that he heard too many damning things to continue his support. So, that is not changing his tune when LA equalled his record as you claim.

You make LeMond out to be a fool who did not know what goes on in pro cycling. LeMond did not need to "hear" things. Everybody with a faintest clue about cycling knew Armstrong was doping, just like they knew the other GT contenders of the era were doping. If any pro cyclist with LeMond's experience tells you he did not know Armstrong and his rivals were doping then they are a liar. Again it comes down to why out of all the riders he could have called out, riders whose doping affected his own palmares, did he call out Armstrong?

I've asked you directly the same question before:

If Lance doesn't deserve a lifetime ban then who does?

How about nobody? Cycling needs an amnesty program. Cookson, as head of the UCI, needs to admit the extent of doping. He needs to make it clear that rampant doping in cycling goes back more than a hundred years, EPO was like pouring gasoline on a fire, for a twenty year period one would be hard pressed to find a single major victory that did not involve blood vectory doping, and all the stakeholders had a hand in enabling the problem.

The UCI should not be allowing cycling to be used as the poster boy for doping. The slow, drip by drip exposure of the past by publicy seeking ADAs is doing a huge amount of damage. It serves no purpose other than trying to find someone to blame. The attempt to juggle decade old results is madness.

I don't buy into doping in pro cycling being a moral or ethical issue. The rules were not meant to be followed. They were enacted for public relations purposes while the UCI did its best to make sure they were ineffective. Fixing the problem is not a matter of finding the "bad" people and getting rid of them. Doping in cycling is a systemic problem. The decisions to dope were rational in that environment, especially given the age of the people when the decisions were made. In a different environment most of the riders would have made different decisions.

The UCI needs to draw a line in the sand and put the past behind it. With the exposure of Armstrong, the UCI president had the opportunity to sack up and deal with issue in an honest manner. Instead he used the same "bad apples" defense that the UCI has been using to con the public. Cookson has not turned out to be any more honest.

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 03:20 PM

...for being a whiney ass Dbag that can't accept the fact that another American won (past tense) more than 2x the number of TDFs than him.

He is also bitter because damn near no one is interested in riding a bike with his name on it. . . . . blah, blah, blah dribble, dribble

Let me be as polite as possible. The situation is a bit nuanced than what you laid out. Oh, all my bike friends know LeMond and considering he just raised the price of his new frames seems he is currently selling stuff, but I digress.

ergott

01-22-2015, 03:21 PM

Again it comes down to why out of all the riders he could have called out, riders whose doping affected his own palmares, did he call out Armstrong?

He called him out because that's who everyone was talking about because that's who was winning every Tour de France because that's the race that garners the most attention.

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 03:24 PM

The guy got a federal investigation shut down

Have a link for that? Hopefully something that is not on Infowars.

I suppose he took a bag full of Benjamins and handed it over to his Congress critter, who then called the heads of the FBI and FDA to a dark Washington alley so he could demand an end to the investigation.

FlashUNC

01-22-2015, 03:25 PM

Again. False. Completely False. Where, exactly, do you get this stuff - aside from just making it out of thin air.

The guy got a federal investigation shut down. And you think other journalists were reporting on him. Who? Supply links. Or would you like to see the time Kimmage got his butt chewed out, by Lance, in a room full of other journalists at the tail end of Lance's comeback.

Aside from Walsh and Kimmage everyone, and I mean everyone, fell in line with the Captain America hero of Cancer story.

"You don't have a patent on cancer." Paul Kimmage to Lance - right to his freakin' lying face. Hard. Freaking. Core. Truth. Sorry it hurts, but it's the way it is.

velomonkey, I like your style.

I'll just leave this here. Really is peak Lance jerkery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgns7CXeUI

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 03:25 PM

Edited: looks like Flash beat me to it. That whole exchange illustrates just what an absolute poor excuse for a person the guy is - and using cancer to buttress your lie is beyond the pale.

So, yea, go ahead and argue why the guy should be back.

FlashUNC

01-22-2015, 03:29 PM

Edited: looks like Flash beat me to it. That whole exchange illustrates just what an absolute poor excuse for a person the guy is - and using caner to buttress your lie is beyond the pale.

So, yea, go ahead and argue why the guy should be back.

I linked to it above.

FlashUNC

01-22-2015, 03:31 PM

And some further proof that David Walsh wasn't just Lance obsessed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0qlliFq8U

abalone

01-22-2015, 03:40 PM

And some further proof that David Walsh wasn't just Lance obsessed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0qlliFq8U

That link says it all. Armstrong's PR team and their smear tactics are disgusting. There was another forum that traced a lot of the IPs of these Guys back to Livestrong in Austin and it has been rumored on other sites from former Livestrong employees that Armstrong encouraged others to keep up the PR battle not just against cancer, but against all those who spoke out against him like Frankie Nadreu, Betsy especially, Greg Lemond, anyone in the media who wrote a negative piece about him.

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 03:40 PM

Have a link for that? Hopefully something that is not on Infowars.

I suppose he took a bag full of Benjamins and handed it over to his Congress critter, who then called the heads of the FBI and FDA to a dark Washington alley so he could demand an end to the investigation.

Look, I'm not going to argue the point with you because I know, as a fact, you won't change your mind from whatever fiction you believe.

I will say - the guy was meeting with bush Senior, Clinton, Bush jr and Obama. The guy met with Kerry and most every recent governor. Senators and congress people started the process to de-fund the USADA. And the investigation was shut down on a busy news cycle (i.e., the super bowl). So, yea, I'd say he called in a few chits to get that shut down.

Oh, and the evidence USADA got for their conviction was the evidence collected from the feds - marion Jones went to jail not for taking dope, but for lying to feds about taking dope. Once the feds were involved it was all over. FACT. Sorry you don't like it.

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 03:41 PM

In a village full of villains, everyones a villain. Some people debating me are acting like I'm taking a side. Lance is a dirtybag- I made my opinion of him clear earlier on. But unlike some of you, I also have ZERO sympathy for all the other players, who continue to keep themselves in the story they claim to be victims of.

This.

I spent a lot of time hating on Armstrong over the years. I spent a lot of effort convincing others that he was doping. I had a hope that if he was exposed then cycling could change for the better. But the crusaders turned out to be little different than LA. The turning point was seeing Betsy and her online crew attack Emma O'Reilly because she made up with Armstrong. Seeing her and her friends smear Hincapie in the same way she claims Armstrong smeared her showed her true nature. Walsh's work for Sky and Froome is a joke. It turned out Tygart targeted Armstrong because he was offended that Armstrong could remain an atheist after surviving cancer. LeMond is now hobnobbing with dopers. Yada yada yada. I don't have much sympathy it because they all deserve each other.

rain dogs

01-22-2015, 03:42 PM

You make LeMond out to be a fool who did not know what goes on in pro cycling. LeMond did not need to "hear" things. Everybody with a faintest clue about cycling knew Armstrong was doping...

You earlier suggested that LeMond attacked Armstrong because of some relationship to Lance equaling and surpassing Greg's records. There is clear evidence existing of LeMond's feelings of doubt toward and been vocal about Armstrong prior to that. You're creating a narrative that at best is conjecture, at worst is imaginary.

They're compatriots. They shared business partners. There's a simple risk to the LeMond brand and it's parent. Those seem like valid reasons to express concern, to which LeMond and his business, were threatened. You seem to imply it was first jealousy, which is conjecture (also LA PR) and judge LeMond's character on that which is dubious.

How about nobody? Cycling needs an amnesty program. Cookson, as head of the UCI, needs to admit the extent of doping.

It's an idea, but I'd say a bad one. I ask how that would be fair and just to those "lesser" pros who served full 2 year sanctions, or are banned for life, and/or lost their careers. You talk about the history of cheating, but there exists a history of sanctions too. Many riders careers are over because they cheated, they made that decision, and now they are done. That's not expressing "lenience" for those cheats, and if not why would I support "lenience" for guys like LA and Hincapie and others who are set for life with their earnings.

Not one person shed a tear when the 'villians' got sanctioned during the 99-2005 run. Not one. But when the 'Hero' of that period goes down, it's time to move the goalposts. Swallow that. :confused:

If the rules aren't robust enough to punish Armstrong, they aren't robust enough to punish anyone. And that's a better reality? No.

FlashUNC

01-22-2015, 03:43 PM

It turned out Tygart targeted Armstrong because he was offended that Armstrong could remain an atheist after surviving cancer.

https://thebluedawg.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/tinfoil.jpg

josephr

01-22-2015, 03:44 PM

Exactly. Everything Armstrong and his PR team of forum posters does is to put forth the image that Armstrong is on an even moral ground and even performance playing field as others. It's false.

anyone here we should know about in the interest of full disclosure????

pitonpat

01-22-2015, 04:03 PM

I'm always stunned by the extent of vitriol this discussion of GL/LA always generates! The Mods must cringe when one of these begins...

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 04:04 PM

....

Still waiting for the nutters to post a single shred of evidence that shows Armstrong shutting down a federal investigation. How about you? Where's your evidence?

BumbleBeeDave

01-22-2015, 04:08 PM

I'm always stunned by the extent of vitriol this discussion of GL/LA always generates! The Mods must cringe when one of these begins...

. . . are permanently contorted.

BBD

malbecman

01-22-2015, 04:13 PM

I'm always stunned by the extent of vitriol this discussion of GL/LA always generates! The Mods must cringe when one of these begins...

Haters gonna hate:

http://edgblogs.s3.amazonaws.com/buzz/files/2013/08/haters-gonna-hate-cool-dog.jpg

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 04:27 PM

You earlier suggested that LeMond attacked Armstrong because of some relationship to Lance equaling and surpassing Greg's records. There is clear evidence existing of LeMond's feelings of doubt toward and been vocal about Armstrong prior to that. You're creating a narrative that at best is conjecture, at worst is imaginary.

You seem to ignore inconvenient facts to support your belief in Saint LeMond. The hard fact of the matter is that LeMond does not have a problem with his contemporaries who were doping, even though the dopers took wins from him and supposedly ushered him into retirement. And that is just plain weird. Riders who affected his palmares, no problem. An American doping longer after he retired, a problem big enough that he torpedoes his own business.

It's an idea, but I'd say a bad one. I ask how that would be fair and just to those "lesser" pros who served full 2 year sanctions, or are banned for life, and/or lost their careers. You talk about the history of cheating, but there exists a history of sanctions too. Many riders careers are over because they cheated, they made that decision, and now they are done.

So what? There is no fairness here. It is impossible. The whole era is screwed. I would eliminate all bans, set the results back to what they were when the riders crossed the line, put a big asterisk over a two decade long period, and concentrate on the future by using more comprehensive longitudinal testing truly independent of the UCI.

CunegoFan

01-22-2015, 04:38 PM

I will say - the guy was meeting with bush Senior, Clinton, Bush jr and Obama. The guy met with Kerry and most every recent governor. Senators and congress people started the process to de-fund the USADA. And the investigation was shut down on a busy news cycle (i.e., the super bowl). So, yea, I'd say he called in a few chits to get that shut down.

The fact is that the the federal prosecutor, Andre Birotte, decided not to proceed. You have no information whatsoever about why. Your conjecture is stuff of Looney Tunes popular over at Cyclingnews' forum. Here is another fact: Birotte is the same prosecutor who decided not to prosecute the head of Countrywide, Angelo Mozilo, a man who caused vast damage to the U.S. economy and ran what Congress termed a fraud factory. If he could not bring himself to risk a loss prosecuting Mozilo then why do you think he would risk prosecuting a popular athlete, especially when the prosecutions against Bonds and Clemens fell apart and were roundly criticized. The decision does not require a smoking man in a trenchcoat, and it certainly does not require a politician risking career suicide by being seen as having a hand in killing an investigation.

beeatnik

01-22-2015, 04:57 PM

CunegoFan, I'm confused by your style.

You premise your arguments on psychological speculation projecting simplistic motivations on GL but then you believe politicians (and, understand, federal prosecutors ARE politicians) would behave in a more complex/ambivalent manner when dealing with a "national hero" who "raised" $500 mil for cancer research?

shovelhd

01-22-2015, 04:59 PM

CunegoFan, I'm confused by your style.

Don't be.

FlashUNC

01-22-2015, 05:40 PM

Still waiting for the nutters to post a single shred of evidence that shows Armstrong shutting down a federal investigation. How about you? Where's your evidence?

The link posted above is a pretty solid start. Using his Cancer Jesus Shield with Paul Kimmage.

There's the Outside magazine story from the guy who moved to New Zealand just to get away from Lance's threats and duress.

The comments about Betsy Andreu -- hello, the Oprah interview. I dont think I've claimed he had the DoJ investigation shut down.

I've always claimed my distaste for Lance is simply how he defended himself against his doping detractors. Who, again, were telling the truth. I dont care he doped. They all did. I care how he carried himself during those accusations. And he was a raging tool.

As always, the coverup was infinitely worse than the original sin.

Seramount

01-22-2015, 06:28 PM

I enjoy these threads...

the raw emotion that some people exhibit over what paid entertainers (pro athletes are exactly that, ya know) think, do, or say is fascinating.

the antics of Lance and Greg mean squat to my existence.

but, please continue...it's a good read on a rainy nite.

rain dogs

01-22-2015, 06:44 PM

parris

01-22-2015, 08:17 PM

Black Dog

01-22-2015, 09:05 PM

One of the earlier posters brought up when epo came on the scene. I remember seeing and article on it in Winning back in the summer of 88 or 89.

I could be way wrong but the article was talking about how several youngish pros has died unexpectedly in their sleep. If I'm wrong I apologize but it's one of those stories that stuck with me.

It is true and it started happening in the early 90's. There were a few young dutch riders who dropped dead from heart attacks due to thickened blood from having such a high volume of red blood cells. I was doing some racing in Europe, at that time, as an espoir (U-23) and there were ridders from many teams (especially dutch riders) running up and down the halls in the middle of the night because they were afraid of their heart rates dropping too low and then stopping. It was quite openly discussed in the pack in several languages. I speak french and english and understand a bit of Spanish and Italian.

pbarry

01-22-2015, 09:14 PM

All responders to JG's OP have been duped/played here. Carry on with the mosh pit.

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 09:18 PM

Man if it ever came out that Lemond ever doped.... that would be an even bigger lie than Lance's, in my opinion.

Bes' keep them skeletons locked up tight.

pbarry

01-22-2015, 09:36 PM

Man if it ever came out that Lemond ever doped.... that would be an even bigger lie than Lance's, in my opinion.

Bes' keep them skeletons locked up tight.

Keep churning the wave, bud. Thanks for making my point. :banana:

Dead Man

01-22-2015, 10:20 PM

Keep churning the wave, bud. Thanks for making my point. :banana:

These threads are still fun. Do you not like fun? :bike:

rwsaunders

01-22-2015, 11:22 PM

Throw a some Tyler Hamilton in the mix, sprinkled with a little Floyd Landis and we will really have a barn burner going...

rustychisel

01-22-2015, 11:43 PM

Throw a some Tyler Hamilton in the mix, sprinkled with a little Floyd Landis and we will really have a barn burner going...

Actually, watching that Kimmage vs LA video I'm always struck by George Hincapie's attempts not to be seen squeezing himself down into the chair. To judge from his expression, if someone had asked him a question after that exchange I doubt he'd have been able to remember his own name.

velomonkey

01-22-2015, 11:46 PM

Actually, watching that Kimmage vs LA video I'm always struck by George Hincapie's attempts not to be seen squeezing himself down into the chair. To judge from his expression, if someone had asked him a question after that exchange I doubt he'd have been able to remember his own name.

It's well known that the Hincapie line of clothing is called Hincapie cause George always had his name written on the outside of his clothes - how else was he to remember his name?

Dead Man

01-23-2015, 12:01 AM

Throw a some Tyler Hamilton in the mix, sprinkled with a little Floyd Landis and we will really have a barn burner going...

I already brought both of them up in one post :p

rustychisel

01-23-2015, 12:56 AM

It's well known that the Hincapie line of clothing is called Hincapie cause George always had his name written on the outside of his clothes - how else was he to remember his name?

So how come the clothing label isn't 'GEORGE' then...? Huh? :hello:

Jgrooms

01-23-2015, 05:33 AM

All responders to JG's OP have been duped/played here. Carry on with the mosh pit.

Really, how so?

I found it pretty funny. GL holds no grudge? Wow! Then shut up. LA, "we got sideways..."
Understatement of the year!

jr59

01-23-2015, 06:01 AM

The fact is that the the federal prosecutor, Andre Birotte, decided not to proceed. You have no information whatsoever about why. Your conjecture is stuff of Looney Tunes popular over at Cyclingnews' forum. Here is another fact: Birotte is the same prosecutor who decided not to prosecute the head of Countrywide, Angelo Mozilo, a man who caused vast damage to the U.S. economy and ran what Congress termed a fraud factory. If he could not bring himself to risk a loss prosecuting Mozilo then why do you think he would risk prosecuting a popular athlete, especially when the prosecutions against Bonds and Clemens fell apart and were roundly criticized. The decision does not require a smoking man in a trenchcoat, and it certainly does not require a politician risking career suicide by being seen as having a hand in killing an investigation.
On this part I 100% agree. NO person is a fringe sport, no matter how popular that person is, has the ability to shut down a federal investigation! To think otherwise is really tin hat stuff. It doesn't work that way. The prosecutor would be the only person to decide that, once the investigation has got under way. To much to lose if it went bad, which it did, form the politalc fallout.WAY TO MUCH!
The money LA could give to any parties is a small drop in the game they play in, so where would be the advantage?

Not going to happen!

velomonkey

01-23-2015, 07:02 AM

On this part I 100% agree. NO person is a fringe sport, no matter how popular that person is, has the ability to shut down a federal investigation! To think otherwise is really tin hat stuff. It doesn't work that way. The prosecutor would be the only person to decide that, once the investigation has got under way. To much to lose if it went bad, which it did, form the politalc fallout.WAY TO MUCH!
The money LA could give to any parties is a small drop in the game they play in, so where would be the advantage?

Not going to happen!

By this logic, no singular person or entity could get anything done with politicians. This is laughable!!!!! The guy was with EVERY president - Republican and Dem.

Yea, it's tin hat stuff to think a political player could get a federal investigation shut down. Yea . . . real twilight zone stuff. :bike:

It's also twilight zone stuff to think he would inject his own blood. Stuff of Vampires.

It's also twilight zone stuff to think - hey, the maker of EPO sponsors tour of California - if he were on EPO why would they not want journalist to promote that Lance takes our product - it's free marketing!!!!!!!

So, Bro, I got this bridge I think you should buy . . . I was a federal investigator. you simply don't know what you're talking about. And a prosecutor can only chose not to bring charges, they have ZERO input on investigations. Please, come with facts.

oldpotatoe

01-23-2015, 07:04 AM

It's well known that the Hincapie line of clothing is called Hincapie cause George always had his name written on the outside of his clothes - how else was he to remember his name?

That's funny. I know a guy who was his agent for about 6 months. He's not the sharpest crayon in the box.

jr59

01-23-2015, 07:12 AM

By this logic, no singular person or entity could get anything done with politicians. This is laughable!!!!! The guy was with EVERY president - Republican and Dem.

Yea, it's tin hat stuff to think a political player could get a federal investigation shut down. Yea . . . real twilight zone stuff. :bike:

It's also twilight zone stuff to think he would inject his own blood. Stuff of Vampires.

It's also twilight zone stuff to think - hey, the maker of EPO sponsors tour of California - if he were on EPO why would they not want journalist to promote that Lance takes our product - it's free marketing!!!!!!!

So, Bro, I got this bridge I think you should buy . . . I was a federal investigator. you simply don't know what you're talking about. And a prosecutor can only chose not to bring charges, they have ZERO input on investigations. Please, come with facts.

Calling Lance Armstrong a political player on that kind of scale is as funny as the rest of your post. You sir have zero idea on the scale of political fallout that would happen.

What could LA bring to the table to make him a "political player"? Money? NOT A CHANCE! These guys deal in multi-millions every day and would risk BILLIONS in the future for some cyclist? Again NOT HAPPENING!

You and I are never going to agree on this, and I am tired of being insulted by you. So, seeing the ignore button works well. Good day sir.

Again, I do not believe for 1 second that you would talk this way to me standing in front of me. But internet tough guys abound. Goodbye sir!

Black Dog

01-23-2015, 08:02 AM

Calling Lance Armstrong a political player on that kind of scale is as funny as the rest of your post. You sir have zero idea on the scale of political fallout that would happen.

What could LA bring to the table to make him a "political player"? Money? NOT A CHANCE! These guys deal in multi-millions every day and would risk BILLIONS in the future for some cyclist? Again NOT HAPPENING!

You and I are never going to agree on this, and I am tired of being insulted by you. So, seeing the ignore button works well. Good day sir.

Again, I do not believe for 1 second that you would talk this way to me standing in front of me. But internet tough guys abound. Goodbye sir!

Well, being a former Federal Investigator may give him some insight that you may not have. Perhaps he does know what you claim he does not. Also, it is not just money that influences politics, Lance is famous and influential and that is the very essence of politics in a system where you need to influence people to vote for you.

velomonkey

01-23-2015, 09:04 AM

Calling Lance Armstrong a political player on that kind of scale is as funny as the rest of your post. You sir have zero idea on the scale of political fallout that would happen.

Would be happy to sit down and talk with you on this. No issue there whatsoever. And playing the victim card is a bit disingenuous, but I digress.

Armstrong paled around with every single president and every single presidential contender from 2000 till 2012. Name me one single person who also did that? Oprah? No. Go on, name one? He hired lobbyist and the same lawyer Clinton used - but, yea, he had no pull in politics ; ) Also, no single person running for office is in the billions, the billions you cite is an aggregate of the house, the senate and POTUS.

I was an investigator at the CFTC right out of grad school when Clinton (who I supported) blocked the CFTC from regulating OTC derivatives. Why didn't we get to keep regulating derivatives - cause Robert Rubin of treasury used to be head of Goldman - who benefited from derivatives . . . Goldman.

It was so blatant and maddening I left altogether and basically never returned. That whole fiasco from 2008 - all derivatives. You want links, I'll thrown 'em at you 'em mass.

This is how it works, if you think, for a second, that in his prime LA wasn't a political player you are just not even having a honest discussion.

Jgrooms

01-23-2015, 10:40 AM

Hey it was no big secret people talked about LA as governor potential. Of TX! Historic track to the WH. Oh how fortunes change.

Dead Man

01-23-2015, 11:16 AM

Hey it was no big secret people talked about LA as governor potential. Of TX! Historic track to the WH. Oh how fortunes change.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's actually still a possibility

BumbleBeeDave

01-23-2015, 11:26 AM

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's actually still a possibility

. . . on him, then he has no idea. If he ran for political office both parties have muckrakers who would dig up mud--and people to testify to it--that you and I could probably hardly imagine.

You think Armstrong has destroyed other people's reputations . . . his efforts would look like amateur hour compared to what would be done to him in a political campaign.

BBD

Dead Man

01-23-2015, 11:42 AM

. . . on him, then he has no idea. If he ran for political office both parties have muckrakers who would dig up mud--and people to testify to it--that you and I could probably hardly imagine.

You think Armstrong has destroyed other people's reputations . . . his efforts would look like amateur hour compared to what would be done to him in a political campaign.

BBD

Are you sure about that? Look at it this way - there's nothing that can come up. I mean, unless a bunch of children come forward with molestation accusations, what can really surface in the middle of a campaign? We already know he's a liar and a cheat, but most Americans still seem to admire him. Most Americans seem to think "anti-social" means shy. If he did some massive image repair and started marketing himself, I bet he'd be capable of winning elections.

ergott

01-23-2015, 11:55 AM

Lots of sheep vote for whom they are told to. As crazy as it sounds I could see him winning at least a Senate seat to start.

CunegoFan

01-23-2015, 12:28 PM

Throw a some Tyler Hamilton in the mix, sprinkled with a little Floyd Landis and we will really have a barn burner going...

Gotta luv Landis. He weighed in today and hammered LeMond for his inconsistency about dopers.

On LeMond:

�I can certainly empathize with his personal distaste for Armstrong. However, his inconsistent treatment of riders who doped is troubling and undercuts his argument that Armstrong should be banned for life.�

"For example just last year he was seen waiving to crowds from a VIP car at the Tour along with Indurain and Hinault. Greg himself claims to have quit racing in the early 90s because EPO showed up and that is exactly when Indurain began winning. If clean riders were a victim of doping in the Armstrong era and he was a victim of doping in the early 90s then it defies reason why those two should be treated so differently.�

�And for those who still have faith in the Indurain years, consider LeMond's comments last year that Pantani was one of the greatest ever. I think that should speak for itself. His wildly varying positions on different dopers are bizarre and indefensible. Greg needs to decide if he�s anti-doping or anti-Lance.�

His take on Wiggins:

�In my opinion Wiggins went from a hopelessly average climber to being the second best rider in the Tour in 2012. In 2011, the year Leinders joined the team, Wiggins transformed into a climber who was even better than he'd been in 2009.

�People are free to judge that for themselves and ask legitimate questions about Sky and their hiring policy.�

His take on pro cycling :) :) :):

"In light of all of this, the comments from Greg, Armstrong, Leinders and Zorzoli, it's not surprising that virtually all legitimate sponsors have fled the sport. It is now financed primarily by bored wealthy men who need a reason to give their wives about why they spend so much time with young leg-shaving men in tight pants.�

malcolm

01-23-2015, 01:09 PM

Flandis always had a knack for speaking his mind.

I still usually like to hear what he has to say, seems to me he has nothing to lose or really gain.

beeatnik

01-23-2015, 01:23 PM

Would be happy to sit down and talk with you on this. No issue there whatsoever. And playing the victim card is a bit disingenuous, but I digress.

Armstrong paled around with every single president and every single presidential contender from 2000 till 2012. Name me one single person who also did that? Oprah? No. Go on, name one? He hired lobbyist and the same lawyer Clinton used - but, yea, he had no pull in politics ; ) Also, no single person running for office is in the billions, the billions you cite is an aggregate of the house, the senate and POTUS.

I was an investigator at the CFTC right out of grad school when Clinton (who I supported) blocked the CFTC from regulating OTC derivatives. Why didn't we get to keep regulating derivatives - cause Robert Rubin of treasury used to be head of Goldman - who benefited from derivatives . . . Goldman.

It was so blatant and maddening I left altogether and basically never returned. That whole fiasco from 2008 - all derivatives. You want links, I'll thrown 'em at you 'em mass.

This is how it works, if you think, for a second, that in his prime LA wasn't a political player you are just not even having a honest discussion.

velomonkey, I continue to like your style

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7555/16323622086_1e024d1e9a_m.jpg