OT - Patriots, again- say it aint so Bill

[wc1934]

Is it April Fools day already?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/01/19/nfl-looking-into-whether-patriots-underinflated-footballs-in-afc-championship-game/?hpid=z3

[shovelhd]

Both teams provided game balls. Another Belichick witch hunt.

[Bruce K]

Since the refs handled the ball EVERY play due to the rain this just seems to be so much BS

People just envious of the continued success of the franchise

BK

[bobswire]

I think they put helium in the ball used by Wilson in Seattle at the end of the game in overtime to get it over the head of the defense then floated down to the receiver.:eek:

[Climb01742]

I hear Belichek kidnapped the Lindbergh baby too.

[Hepmike]

I'm shocked to see the MA crowd chiming in strongly in favor of the Patriot's organization...

What are folks anywhere else on the planet thinking about it?

[vqdriver]

hehe. sounds more like a kiffin stunt to me.

[pinkshogun]

watch for the Pats cornerbacks using Flubber on their shoes

[josephr]

losing a 1st round draft pick might not be so bad --- might help them with their salary cap woes.

[93legendti]

Go Pats. That's my view from Michigan.

[Bruce K]

Pretty sure Brady restructuring a couple of weeks ago solved a lot of the cap issues

Or did you miss that? ;)

BK

[velomonkey]

Granted I am a pats fan, but with that understood. . . .

The officiating crew literally could not tell a kicking ball from a throwing ball in the 3rd quarter. Given the originator of this story is a Indiana reporter this has a long, long, long way to go before it becomes something of any concern. Also, PV=nRT - it's science, it's fact, it's scientific fact.

Patriots all the way - Belichick is playing chess, the others are playing checkers. He got a TD to a guy who went to BROWN for cripes sake.

[MattTuck]

Granted I am a pats fan, but with that understood. . . .

The officiating crew literally could not tell a kicking ball from a throwing ball in the 3rd quarter. Given the originator of this story is a Indiana reporter this has a long, long, long way to go before it becomes something of any concern. Also, PV=nRT - it's science, it's fact, it's scientific fact.

Patriots all the way - Belichick is playing chess, the others are playing checkers. He got a TD to a guy who went to BROWN for cripes sake.

Shhhh! Don't expose the secret. Brown is ultimate feeder program :P

[Aaron O]

It's not a witch hunt if the guy has a proven history of being a dirt ball.

[peanutgallery]

I think its all BS, bit harder to accomplish than it sounds. I think they're giving the hoodie too much credit

the rule:
Rule 2 The Ball
Section 1
BALL DIMENSIONS
The Ball must be a “Wilson,” hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.
The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case
(natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight
shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short circumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches;
weight, 14 to 15 ounces.
The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be
furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the
ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.
Section 2
BALL SUPPLY
Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of
the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all
stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games
held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, eight new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to
the Referee, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game.
These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game.
In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper
ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the
Commissioner.
In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of the offensive team’s center.
The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs).
Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing
field.

[velomonkey]

It's not a witch hunt if the guy has a proven history of being a dirt ball.

Holding the '07 thing out there as "history" is about as legit as holding Lewinsky against Clinton. It's one step shy of asking for his birth certificate. A ton of NFL coaches said "if you aren't doing that, then you're not trying" - the kid was, literally, 3 feet from line marker when he recorded it.

Now, as for coaching itself - gets Blount back from on waivers (this means the steelers just let him go), dude scores 4 TDs in a playoff game. Routinely has league minimum receivers with thousand yard reception years. Has a winning record on EVERY team in the NFL save for the NY Giants (which only show that he is human). Met a wrestler at the gym, brought him onto the offensive line - guy played for 3 years.

The man is on a different planet. It's a witch hunt. Look at Baltimore - cried like babies - over a totally legit way to play the game. Hurry up offense - everyone used to cry over it, now everyone does it.

[MattTuck]

It's not a witch hunt if the guy has a proven history of being a dirt ball.

Behind every great fortune, there is a great crime.


I think its all BS, bit harder to accomplish than it sounds. I think they're giving the hoodie too much credit


It's a bummer the season will be over in 2 weeks. Can't wait for fantasy "prolate spheroid" ball next year :cool:

[wc1934]

http://www.wcvb.com/news/vince-wilfork-helps-driver-trapped-in-roll-over-crash/30799336?utm_source=Social&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_campaign=wcvb+channel+5+boston

vince's balls were not deflated

[velomonkey]

vince's balls were not deflated

I love the guy, but if you checked Gronk's balls after a weekend in Vegas. They'd be deflated.

[Aaron O]

Holding the '07 thing out there as "history" is about as legit as holding Lewinsky against Clinton. It's one step shy of asking for his birth certificate. A ton of NFL coaches said "if you aren't doing that, then you're not trying" - the kid was, literally, 3 feet from line marker when he recorded it.

Now, as for coaching itself - gets Blount back from on waivers (this means the steelers just let him go), dude scores 4 TDs in a playoff game. Routinely has league minimum receivers with thousand yard reception years. Has a winning record on EVERY team in the NFL save for the NY Giants (which only show that he is human). Met a wrestler at the gym, brought him onto the offensive line - guy played for 3 years.

The man is on a different planet. It's a witch hunt. Look at Baltimore - cried like babies - over a totally legit way to play the game. Hurry up offense - everyone used to cry over it, now everyone does it.

I didn't say this has legs - I'll wait to see how it shakes out. What I did say is that he's a proven, caught, cheating dirt ball...and it's not remotely the same as monica-gate because that was sex. This is him cheating in his role as a head coach. It's more similar to something like Iran-contra - where the leader breaks the laws of the organization.

As far as the rationalizations - I'm sure Boston fans are quite practiced in this argument after defending your dirt ball for 8 years.

[Aaron O]

Behind every great fortune, there is a great crime.




It's a bummer the season will be over in 2 weeks. Can't wait for fantasy "prolate spheroid" ball next year :cool:

I won't argue this point :banana:

[Bradford]

...What I did say is that he's a proven, caught, cheating dirt ball...

It would be helpful if you understand the facts of the case, which were outlined in a Bleacher Report article this week:

Remember what Spygate was in the first place. The NFL asked all teams to stop videotaping coaching signals during games. That's the key: Almost every team in the NFL was doing it. The league sent out a memo. Belichick ignored it. That is why the league blasted Belichick. He basically told them he didn't care what they said.

Belichick gained nothing from the taping. Not a thing.

So why did he do it?

Because he's a control freak. All of the good coaches are. They look for any advantage possible.

You can read the whole article here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2330223-the-belichick-brady-legacy-is-defined-by-wins-not-tapes-or-tucks.

Belichick can be a real jerk, and he seems to enjoy pissing people off, but calling him a cheating dirt ball shows you don't understand what actually happened. He was punished for ignoring the commissioner. Two guys who have consistently demonstrated that they have huge egos going at each other. That is a long way from cheating that helped the Patriots win.

Do a quick web search on the subject and see what other coaches say. The consensus is that everyone tried a version of what the Patriots did, and most people didn't think it did much good.

I know you really don't want to dig too deep into this and figure out what actually did happen, its much more fun to hate the guy and discount why the Patriots have been the best team in football since 2001. But the facts are pretty easy to find if you look just a little.

[MattTuck]

He's past spygate, and on to Cincinnati.

No, seriously, he's prepping for Cincinnati.


Belichick is a competitor, and maybe he crossed the line, or maybe he went right up to it.

Pete Carrol (a former patriots coach) had some issues at USC. Sean Peyton was actually suspended for an entire season for stuff that happened in his organization. I'm sure there are others.

[vqdriver]

Is there a compelling reason why the refs don't show up with the game balls?

[cloudguy]

The Patriots have been the best team in football since 2001

They've essentially been the Buffalo Bills since 2005, especially if they lose this one.

[Aaron O]

It would be helpful if you understand the facts of the case, which were outlined in a Bleacher Report article this week:

Remember what Spygate was in the first place. The NFL asked all teams to stop videotaping coaching signals during games. That's the key: Almost every team in the NFL was doing it. The league sent out a memo. Belichick ignored it. That is why the league blasted Belichick. He basically told them he didn't care what they said.

Belichick gained nothing from the taping. Not a thing.

So why did he do it?

Because he's a control freak. All of the good coaches are. They look for any advantage possible.

You can read the whole article here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2330223-the-belichick-brady-legacy-is-defined-by-wins-not-tapes-or-tucks.

Belichick can be a real jerk, and he seems to enjoy pissing people off, but calling him a cheating dirt ball shows you don't understand what actually happened. He was punished for ignoring the commissioner. Two guys who have consistently demonstrated that they have huge egos going at each other. That is a long way from cheating that helped the Patriots win.

Do a quick web search on the subject and see what other coaches say. The consensus is that everyone tried a version of what the Patriots did, and most people didn't think it did much good.

I know you really don't want to dig too deep into this and figure out what actually did happen, its much more fun to hate the guy and discount why the Patriots have been the best team in football since 2001. But the facts are pretty easy to find if you look just a little.
Do you really want to do a battle of links? I can post 20 of former players and coaches calling him a dirt ball.

And no - not every team did that, they didn't use cameras and record it for one. I know what cowher said...I also know that Hines ward said otherwise, as have several other players.

FYI - the steelers and giants would disagree that the pats were the best team post 2005.

I will admit to being sour grapes after the 2004 bowl.

[Aaron O]

He's past spygate, and on to Cincinnati.

No, seriously, he's prepping for Cincinnati.


Belichick is a competitor, and maybe he crossed the line, or maybe he went right up to it.

Pete Carrol (a former patriots coach) had some issues at USC. Sean Peyton was actually suspended for an entire season for stuff that happened in his organization. I'm sure there are others.

Our coach is a dirt ball for that matter.

[velomonkey]

Do you really want to do a battle of links? I can post 20 of former players and coaches calling him a dirt ball.

I'm trying to be a bit fair here, 20 former players is gonna be a hard task.

The vast majority of players have said "the guy is a hard ass, but the guy gets the absolute best out of you." - Wes Welker being the best most recent example. How many players have had issues and almost lost their career and then had a phoenix rising to only go on to play for the pats and other teams at their former glory. Taleb, Moss, Revis - the list goes on.

The guy is the Steve Jobs of NFL coaching. The steelers had Blount - he did 2 TDs in, what, 12 games. His first game back on the pats he gets almost 2 TDs and then 4 TDs in the conference championship game. The steelers can't get into the playoffs cause they - wait for it - don't have another RB. You could not ask for a better example of how one coach can operate versus another coach. I like the steelers, but, sorry, they lost that one and that was a wicked bad decision. Sure I know that players get different output on different teams - they lost their spot cause they didn't have a 2nd RB - it's pathetic.

Deflated balls is just grasping at straws. Steve Jobs was't personable, wasn't nice, wasn't friendly - but the dude got results. Same here.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Sore loser. You lost, get over it, douche. Imo, the better jersey won.

[shovelhd]

haterz gotta hate

[JMacII]

This ball thing is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If soft balls favor the pass, and Indy relies more on the pass than you do, why would this be an advantage? Oh and by the way, both teams use the same ball so why are we talking about this again?

[OtayBW]

I didn't say this has legs - I'll wait to see how it shakes out. What I did say is that he's a proven, caught, cheating dirt ball...and it's not remotely the same as monica-gate because that was sex. This is him cheating in his role as a head coach. It's more similar to something like Iran-contra - where the leader breaks the laws of the organization.

As far as the rationalizations - I'm sure Boston fans are quite practiced in this argument after defending your dirt ball for 8 years.
Whiskey-Tango-Ah, Nevermind....

[djg21]

Whiskey-Tango-Ah, Nevermind....

The Pats just signed Lance. :banana:

[Climb01742]

I think you'd actually have a surprisingly hard time finding many Pats' fans you like the Hoodie. We think he's an insufferable ass too. But if anyone seriously believes that the Pats have been as great as they have been, for as long as they have been because of Belichek's pushing of the limits is deluding themselves. Hoodie is the best in-game coach and best week-to-week coach in the game. The Pats have rarely had the most talent but they have gotten the most out of the talent they have. Be like us Pats' fan...respect the Hoodie without liking the Hoodie. We wish he wasn't such a tool either, but we're damn glad he's our tool.;)

[buddybikes]

His one flaw which has cost him more rings is revenge. Gets rid of good players just because they challenge him a bit. Logan Mankins good example. Using players just as pawns sometime backfires. Wish he had stuck to coaching rather than running whole GM thing.

[shovelhd]

I'm a Pats fan, and I like the hoodie. I hate being told how I am supposed to feel.

[pbarry]

I'm trying to be a bit fair here, 20 former players is gonna be a hard task.

The vast majority of players have said "the guy is a hard ass, but the guy gets the absolute best out of you." - Wes Welker being the best most recent example. How many players have had issues and almost lost their career and then had a phoenix rising to only go on to play for the pats and other teams at their former glory. Taleb, Moss, Revis - the list goes on.

The guy is the Steve Jobs of NFL coaching. The steelers had Blount - he did 2 TDs in, what, 12 games. His first game back on the pats he gets almost 2 TDs and then 4 TDs in the conference championship game. The steelers can't get into the playoffs cause they - wait for it - don't have another RB. You could not ask for a better example of how one coach can operate versus another coach. I like the steelers, but, sorry, they lost that one and that was a wicked bad decision. Sure I know that players get different output on different teams - they lost their spot cause they didn't have a 2nd RB - it's pathetic.

Deflated balls is just grasping at straws. Steve Jobs was't personable, wasn't nice, wasn't friendly - but the dude got results. Same here.

Not a fan of the Pats or BB. BUT, excellent summation and comparison above. Well said.

[roydyates]

Our coach is a dirt ball for that matter.

Aaron, who is your coach? Chip Kelly? Sre are you. Philly person with an out if town allegiance?

As a fairly devout Eagles fan who assume you mean Kelly, I wonder what prompts this?

[daker13]

What I did say is that he's a proven, caught, cheating dirt ball...and it's not remotely the same as monica-gate because that was sex. This is him cheating in his role as a head coach. It's more similar to something like Iran-contra - where the leader breaks the laws of the organization.

It really is weird to me how much some people hate Belichick. I see lots of comments on internet message boards and I picture these people, gritting their teeth and hammering at the keyboards with their sweaty little fingers.

[pbarry]

It really is weird to me how much some people hate Belichick. I see lots of comments on internet message boards and I picture these people, gritting their teeth and hammering at the keyboards with their sweaty little fingers.

Ya gotta take the winning record, past history, and your location into account. :cool:

[pbarry]

The Pats just sign Lance. :banana:

Good one. LA could still make it in in the NFL, if he has any hand/eye coordination, don't know.. Driven, work ethic, willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. If he can bulk up, I see a WR position for him.

[djg21]

I'm a Pats fan, and I like the hoodie. I hate being told how I am supposed to feel.

I thinks he's among the best to ever coach in the NFL and I like him. Sure I get disappointed when he trades away marquis players, but he has been masterful at getting the players he does have to produce. I don't need him to cosy up to the press; I'd prefer him to stay quiet and win.

[moose8]

Do you really want to do a battle of links? I can post 20 of former players and coaches calling him a dirt ball.

I would love to see such links for sure. I'm a huge patriots homer but I like to think I'm also a rationale human being so I can definitely be swayed. The being said the ball thing makes no sense to me because how is it cheating if it benefits both sides (which is to say I don't see a reason why to engage in it so I don't think it happened at this point - very limited incentives).

Also Aaron Hernandez was clearly framed. (Just kidding on that last part).

I'm not sure I'd want to hang out with Bill Belichek but I love having him as New England's coach because I just don't see how anyone can deny he's better than any coach currently coaching and likely ever.

[moose8]

Aaron, who is your coach? Chip Kelly? Sre are you. Philly person with an out if town allegiance?

As a fairly devout Eagles fan who assume you mean Kelly, I wonder what prompts this?

I'm guessing from his reference to the 2004 super bowl he's a panthers fan. On a side note for panthers fans, I used to work with a relative of Chris Gamble and he gave me a signed football without any real reason to - he seemed like a genuinely nice dude from the extremely limited interaction I had with him.

[r_mutt]

They are the best team- unless they have to play the Giants in the Super Bowl :banana::banana::banana:

[ergott]

Didn't read thread, but question. Why do the teams provide the ball. Just have the NFL provide the ball and then they have control over it. Stupid they don't.

[Aaron O]

Aaron, who is your coach? Chip Kelly? Sre are you. Philly person with an out if town allegiance?

As a fairly devout Eagles fan who assume you mean Kelly, I wonder what prompts this?

Roy - devout Eagles fan. I thought how he left oregon was distasteful, I thought the handling of desean was repugnant, and reeked of tyrannical egotism (especially contrasted with Riley cooper). I am not a fan of what I've seen from the genius. At least hoodie has earned his arrogance in the pros.

[Aaron O]

It really is weird to me how much some people hate Belichick. I see lots of comments on internet message boards and I picture these people, gritting their teeth and hammering at the keyboards with their sweaty little fingers.

I thought Boston fans called themselves passionate. Really? You can't see why so many people find him irritating?

I freely admit some of it is sour apples as well.

[Louis]

Football is really no big deal to me, but I would imagine that folks would understand why B Belicheat isn't St Louis Rams fans' favorite opposing coach.

[jlwdm]

I don't see why a quarterback would want to throw a ball with a different feel than the ball he has been throwing for years.

Jeff

[Louis]

I don't see why a quarterback would want to throw a ball with a different feel than the ball he has been throwing for years.

Which, of course, is precisely why the rain would cause them to want to make it easier to grip the ball - to give the QB the same purchase as what he's used to with a dry ball.

[Louis]

Yesterday I didn't watch the games on TV, just listened to them on the radio.

OMG - I just found a picture of the football the Pats were using:

http://www.hasbro.com/common/productimages/en_US/61659da95056900b1003f5d1ca3405b2/converted0e6510534e98765ab44fba4a1c1c95ffd4c02397. jpg

[rwsaunders]

Who can forget the other "gates"...Bill finds always finds a way to stay in the news.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-england-patriots-scandals-from-spies-to-snowplows/

[Bruce K]

Get your timeline straight

Snowplow wasn't Bill's deal - not even Pete Carroll's (coach here before Bill - and isn't that an interesting story line?)

As a matter of fact it wasn't even Gillette Stadium!

I can't even remember who the coach was for that but I was at the game - John Smith was the kicker

BK

[cfox]

Do you really want to do a battle of links? I can post 20 of former players and coaches calling him a dirt ball.

And no - not every team did that, they didn't use cameras and record it for one. I know what cowher said...I also know that Hines ward said otherwise, as have several other players.

FYI - the steelers and giants would disagree that the pats were the best team post 2005.

I will admit to being sour grapes after the 2004 bowl.

Yah, OK Belichick is a dirt ball, but he gets loyalty unheard from his players unheard of in the NFL. That says something about the guy.

And, sorry, the Patriots are the best team since 2001. Fans only look at Super Bowl wins. And while of course that is the goal, coaches, players and GMs understand the Super Bowl champion is the winner of a tournament after the season, and in many cases, is not the best team. Are you going to argue that the 07 Giants were the best team that year?

[oldpotatoe]

I'm shocked to see the MA crowd chiming in strongly in favor of the Patriot's organization...

What are folks anywhere else on the planet thinking about it?

about what?

[oldpotatoe]

I'm trying to be a bit fair here, 20 former players is gonna be a hard task.

The vast majority of players have said "the guy is a hard ass, but the guy gets the absolute best out of you." - Wes Welker being the best most recent example. How many players have had issues and almost lost their career and then had a phoenix rising to only go on to play for the pats and other teams at their former glory. Taleb, Moss, Revis - the list goes on.

The guy is the Steve Jobs of NFL coaching. The steelers had Blount - he did 2 TDs in, what, 12 games. His first game back on the pats he gets almost 2 TDs and then 4 TDs in the conference championship game. The steelers can't get into the playoffs cause they - wait for it - don't have another RB. You could not ask for a better example of how one coach can operate versus another coach. I like the steelers, but, sorry, they lost that one and that was a wicked bad decision. Sure I know that players get different output on different teams - they lost their spot cause they didn't have a 2nd RB - it's pathetic.

Deflated balls is just grasping at straws. Steve Jobs was't personable, wasn't nice, wasn't friendly - but the dude got results. Same here.

He needs to work on his sideline wardrobe. He's a slob.

Classy

[velomonkey]

He needs to work on his sideline wardrobe. He's a slob.

Classy

You know who else was a slob - Steve Jobs. A consistent black mock turtelnek with 5 day stubble is about a half step ahead of the hoodie.

6 super bowls in 14 years - you get a pass in my book.

[harlond]

This ball thing is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If soft balls favor the pass, and Indy relies more on the pass than you do, why would this be an advantage? Oh and by the way, both teams use the same ball so why are we talking about this again?Is this actually true? Some of the articles I've seen suggest that each team plays with the footballs they bring, and that the officials check the inflation and then return them to the team's representatives before the game starts.

[MattTuck]

I'll say this. If this comes from within the Colts organization (the "NFL Source"), it is a pretty well done piece of PR spin. Three days later and we're talking about the bureaucratic procedures of ball handling in the NFL rather than the fact that Indianapolis folded like a cheap suit... whether there is any merit to the claim, the Colts have been able to avoid some tough questions.

[Aaron O]

What tough questions did the colts avoid? They got spanked by a better team, both personnel and coaching. I think everyone foresaw this outcome at the outset. They're not as good as the pats and they're certainly not as well coached.

As much as I like Luck, he's also not quite at the Brady level yet in terms of experience and vision.

[tele]

Is this actually true? Some of the articles I've seen suggest that each team plays with the footballs they bring, and that the officials check the inflation and then return them to the team's representatives before the game starts.

This is exactly how the former NFL head of officiating described the process.

Just read how Aaron Rodgers like to overinflate the ball on purpose for his throwing style:http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/rodgers-told-cbs-he-tries-overinflate-footballs

Seems to me the real investigation should be why the Colts were allowed to take the field with the same game plan that didnt work in the first game.:no:

[SBash]

Yesterday I didn't watch the games on TV, just listened to them on the radio.

OMG - I just found a picture of the football the Pats were using:

http://www.hasbro.com/common/productimages/en_US/61659da95056900b1003f5d1ca3405b2/converted0e6510534e98765ab44fba4a1c1c95ffd4c02397. jpg

Marshawn lynch would rush for over 200 yards with this nerf ball and a big bag of skittles against the pats:eek:

[Len J]

Here is the fundamental issue here that Pats fans want to ignore.

He got caught cheating and the largest fine in the history if the NFL to that point was levied. You can all say it was nothing, and that he got no gain etc, but the fine would say otherwise. Most people give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves untrustworthy. Then there is always the presumption of guilt. Integrity is not sometime, it's all the time. He and the PATs have already demonstrated they will do anything to win. In a league where the difference between winning and losing is so small, cheating can be that difference.

With the demonstrated lack of integrity with these two teams, they should rename this game "The Cheaters Bowl"

[SBash]

Here is the fundamental issue here that Pats fans want to ignore.

He got caught cheating and the largest fine in the history if the NFL to that point was levied. You can all say it was nothing, and that he got no gain etc, but the fine would say otherwise. Most people give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves untrustworthy. Then there is always the presumption of guilt. Integrity is not sometime, it's all the time. He and the PATs have already demonstrated they will do anything to win. In a league where the difference between winning and losing is so small, cheating can be that difference.

With the demonstrated lack of integrity with these two teams, they should rename this game "The Cheaters Bowl"

When did the Seahawks cheat?:confused: Your sounding like a mad little cry baby:mad:

Go Hawks!:banana:

[Len J]

When did the Seahawks cheat?:confused: Your sounding like a mad little cry baby:mad:



Go Hawks!:banana:


More PED violations than any other team.

The statement "we will pass interfere every play knowing they won'T call them all. "

Hiring a cheater as head coach.

People bring their integrity with them, integrity doesn't change.

Just bringing things fans don't like...... Facts.



Len

[MattTuck]

With the demonstrated lack of integrity with these two teams, they should rename this game "The Cheaters Bowl"

Let's look at something like Offensive Holding. This is against the rules, yet many players do it during the game. Should we deem them all cheaters? Some get away with it, some get caught and are penalized. Do you cast dispersions on those players that are caught, like they lack integrity?

Or how about a player that takes a cheap shot, trying to injure another player (cough, Ndamukong Suh). Or a team that implements a system to reward players that injure the other team? Or is that just 'playing the game hard'?

Or, like the clip above describes, Aaron Rodgers, who intentionally over-inflates the balls? Lack of integrity? Trying to get every advantage he can?

Yeah, Belichick made a mistake, and he was punished severely for it based on league rules. I don't see how that is that much different than an offensive lineman trying to hold a rushing defensive player to get an extra second to let his QB complete a pass. Both are infractions of the rule, both are punished proportionally by the league.

It seems like there is more vitriol directed at Bill Belichick than at Ray Rice, based on some of these comments.

[Len J]

Let's look at something like Offensive Holding. This is against the rules, yet many players do it during the game. Should we deem them all cheaters? Some get away with it, some get caught and are penalized. Do you cast dispersions on those players that are caught, like they lack integrity?



Or how about a player that takes a cheap shot, trying to injure another player (cough, Ndamukong Suh). Or a team that implements a system to reward players that injure the other team? Or is that just 'playing the game hard'?



Or, like the clip above describes, Aaron Rodgers, who intentionally over-inflates the balls? Lack of integrity? Trying to get every advantage he can?



Yeah, Belichick made a mistake, and he was punished severely for it based on league rules. I don't see how that is that much different than an offensive lineman trying to hold a rushing defensive player to get an extra second to let his QB complete a pass. Both are infractions of the rule, both are punished proportionally by the league.



It seems like there is more vitriol directed at Bill Belichick than at Ray Rice, based on some of these comments.


Some infractions are more severe than others. But yea, based in evidence Suh has little integrity.

Comparing occasional offensive holding w institutional cheating encouraged from the top is absurd.

Len

[JMacII]

Is this actually true? Some of the articles I've seen suggest that each team plays with the footballs they bring, and that the officials check the inflation and then return them to the team's representatives before the game starts.


What I saw was the refs inspect the balls and then the balls are in the hands of the equipment guys supplied by the home team. I don't recall ever seeing them swap balls based on which team is on offense. But what do I know?

[SBash]

[QUOTE=Len J;1691781]More PED violations than any other team. One of the youngest teams in the NFL and several teams right behind them on PED's...I think Bruce Irvin was the last and he was suspended for 4 games.

The statement "we will pass interfere every play knowing they won'T call them all. "
BS, Seahawks lead the league in penalty's..so you have nothing there.

Hiring a cheater as head coach.
No he's not...He coaches the Seahawks! You need to get over the USC thing.

People bring their integrity with them, integrity doesn't change.
Nothing here, just your opinion.

Just bringing things fans don't like...... Facts.
Seahawks are one of America’s favorite teams and at the top in the league in Jersey sales.

Go SeaHawks!:hello:

[Climb01742]

Here's the reality of spygate:

A large majority of teams in the NFL were taping opponents as they practiced. The league office sent a memo to ALL teams telling them ALL to stop doing it.

Belichek didn't stop. The size of the penalty wasn't due to filming and cheating. Bill got whacked because he defied the league office, that's what the NFL hates most. He's arrogant and hates being dictated to.

About deflategate:

As Aaron Rodgers quote attests, all QBs push the rules to get the ball they like to use the most. But that doesn't fit the narrative, does it?

The colts got their asses kicked because they can't build a good team. Just see their last two first round picks. Maybe if they looked in the mirror instead of blaming others they might improve faster. They look like crybabies crying about footballs.

[Aaron O]

Let's look at something like Offensive Holding. This is against the rules, yet many players do it during the game. Should we deem them all cheaters? Some get away with it, some get caught and are penalized. Do you cast dispersions on those players that are caught, like they lack integrity?

Or how about a player that takes a cheap shot, trying to injure another player (cough, Ndamukong Suh). Or a team that implements a system to reward players that injure the other team? Or is that just 'playing the game hard'?

Or, like the clip above describes, Aaron Rodgers, who intentionally over-inflates the balls? Lack of integrity? Trying to get every advantage he can?

Yeah, Belichick made a mistake, and he was punished severely for it based on league rules. I don't see how that is that much different than an offensive lineman trying to hold a rushing defensive player to get an extra second to let his QB complete a pass. Both are infractions of the rule, both are punished proportionally by the league.

It seems like there is more vitriol directed at Bill Belichick than at Ray Rice, based on some of these comments.

I dislike belicheck more because:

1. what he did possibly affected my team in a super bowl.
2. He's in a position of authority
3. He's an obnoxious, arrogant smug bastard
4. He's been around longer

Frankly what Rice did doesn't affect me at all. It's not the nfl's job to regulate domestic relationships and abuse. The prosecutor elected to treat it a certain way and his victim married the guy. It was the prosecitor's job. Frankly it's her job to defend her interests, and if she's not going to attacking the NFL seems like a stretch.

I sure as hell don't want to be accountable for what our employees do in their home lives.

[Aaron O]

Here's the reality of spygate:

A large majority of teams in the NFL were taping opponents as they practiced. The league office sent a memo to ALL teams telling them ALL to stop doing it.

Belichek didn't stop. The size of the penalty wasn't due to filming and cheating. Bill got whacked because he defied the league office, that's what the NFL hates most. He's arrogant and hates being dictated to.

About deflategate:

As Aaron Rodgers quote attests, all QBs push the rules to get the ball they like to use the most. But that doesn't fit the narrative, does it?

The colts got their asses kicked because they can't build a good team. Just see their last two first round picks. Maybe if they looked in the mirror instead of blaming others they might improve faster. They look like crybabies crying about footballs.
As I understand it that is not true. Other teams watched practices, though I am not aware of them having libraries of those tapes. I freely admit to not having followed every article about it, and I am certain that Boston fans are quite practiced in defending the putz.

I will tell you that NFL player Hollis Thomas has said you called our plays on the field during the bowl in a way he had never seen. He's never called any other coach or team a bunch of cheating scum. Hines ward stated the same. Other players have as well, though I don't recall every time I've heard it.

[Climb01742]

As I understand it that is not true. Other teams watched practices, though I am not aware of them having libraries of those tapes. I freely admit to not having followed every article about it, and I am certain that Boston fans are quite practiced in defending the putz.

I will tell you that NFL player Hollis Thomas has said you called our plays on the field during the bowl in a way he had never seen. He's never called any other coach or team a bunch of cheating scum. Hines ward stated the same. Other players have as well, though I don't recall every time I've heard it.

Perhaps part of the problem is that there are tons of anecdotal stories floating around and each of us can only hear some fraction of the total. I certainly can't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge here but from what I've heard and read, the practice was widespread among teams. Jimmy Johnson, for example, admitted to having done it too and said every coach pushes the rules in their own ways. It's how you become and stay an NFL coach he said.

I'm not trying to defend everything BB does or how arrogant he can be. But his behavior has become an excuse for other teams not being consistently good. We lost because Bill cheats is easier to live with than we lost because we don't (pick your point) coach as well or draft as well or game plan as well or practice as hard or whatever. As I said earlier, BB can be a real tool but the Pats' record the last almost 15 years isn't due to cheating. And some teams just can't accept that he's been that good that long and they haven't. So they blame him, rather than look at themselves.

[Len J]

[QUOTE=Len J;1691781]More PED violations than any other team. One of the youngest teams in the NFL and several teams right behind them on PED's...I think Bruce Irvin was the last and he was suspended for 4 games.

The statement "we will pass interfere every play knowing they won'T call them all. "
BS, Seahawks lead the league in penalty's..so you have nothing there.

Hiring a cheater as head coach.
No he's not...He coaches the Seahawks! You need to get over the USC thing.

People bring their integrity with them, integrity doesn't change.
Nothing here, just your opinion.

Just bringing things fans don't like...... Facts.
Seahawks are one of America’s favorite teams and at the top in the league in Jersey sales.

Go SeaHawks!:hello:

They lead the league, and still don't get called as much as they admit to holding.

So Carroll cheated, but only at USC....ROFL.... I have a Bridge for you.

[Bruce K]

Nope.

The teams supply he balls to the refs. They inspect them, mark them, and take control of them until just before kickoff when they are given to the two ball boys.

For this to happen either the refs totally screwed up or the ball boys had an inflation needle they could use to let some air out and they would have to have a way to determine just how much air they were letting out AND be able to hide what they were doing while out on the sidelines in full view of everyone.

If you are following all the reporting, the problem supposedly occurred in the first half, was noticed when the Colts intercepted late in the 2nd quarter. The "issue" was supposedly corrected in the second half when the Patriots outscored the Colts 31-0
Can't we move on now?

BK

[Len J]

Perhaps part of the problem is that there are tons of anecdotal stories floating around and each of us can only hear some fraction of the total. I certainly can't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge here but from what I've heard and read, the practice was widespread among teams. Jimmy Johnson, for example, admitted to having done it too and said every coach pushes the rules in their own ways. It's how you become and stay an NFL coach he said.

I'm not trying to defend everything BB does or how arrogant he can be. But his behavior has become an excuse for other teams not being consistently good. We lost because Bill cheats is easier to live with than we lost because we don't (pick your point) coach as well or draft as well or game plan as well or practice as hard or whatever. As I said earlier, BB can be a real tool but the Pats' record the last almost 15 years isn't due to cheating. And some teams just can't accept that he's been that good that long and they haven't. So they blame him, rather than look at themselves.

Never said the colts lost because of this.

But the fact is, Joe's a convicted cheater. 10's would be shocked if it turns out this ball thing were done.

Len

EDIT TO ADD. I'm not claiming that they don't do a very large number of things well. I'm pointing out that in a league where small differences matter and a few plays decide most games, illegal edges can be significant.

[Bruce K]

Len

When is Spygate over? That was 8 years ago.

What other infractions can you name from the Patriots?

The formation issue against the Ravens was LEGAL and used by many college and NFL teams (Detroit vs Minnesota just a few weeks ago).

Name something else. Seriously.

People hate the Patriots because they are successful and have been longer than any other franchise in recent times.

Also because BB is easy to hate. He likes it that way. So does the team. It's motivational for them (world vs us).

The biggest issue right now is that this is dragging out. It is inconceivable to me that the NFL can't figure out if anything happened and make a decision. The league and it's ability to handle this kind of stuff is the biggest issue/joke.

BK

[velomonkey]

Let's take something we all know - Lance Armstrong and cheating - and something we don't know as much about - Belichick as a coach cheating

Let's do an analogy of Bill Belichick and 'spygate' - cause that's REALLY all you have, the formations were legal and the ball thing is rather pathetic. So how doe s spygate stack up to a world-class cheater (again, one we all know what he did).

i would put it up there about as high as Lance hiring all the Spanish climbers, the 'look', and the time he insisted on wearing the jersey with cancer survivors rather than the team jersey.

So saying the pats are 'institutionalized cheating from the top down' - is a far, far, far stretch.

As for the annoying #gohawks and jersey sales. I've worked for a company in Seattle for about 8 years - went there a ton. Not. A. Sports. Town. NYC, Philly, Boston and Chicago are sports towns - Redskins routinely get the most money from their logo and team name - anyone who has ever lived in DC can tell you. Not. A. Sports. Town. Seattle is the same.

US Postal sold a bunch of jerseys for a bunch of years - even radio shack did, too. Is anyone gonna try to say that those were real "bike racing fans?" No, they were Lance fans. Seattle shouldn't have made it this far, GB lost the game, not seattle winning. Those jersey sales will be lacking soon enough.

[beeatnik]

Hope the Patriots win.

I hate both teams but I HATE Pete Carroll most.

What a moral dilemma. Oh wells, I used to hate the Red Sox and Celtics as well.

This is what happens when you live in LA without a football or baseball team.

At least the Bruins finished in the Top 10...crumbs.

[velomonkey]

Hope the Patriots win.

I hate both teams but I HATE Pete Carroll most.

What a moral dilemma. Oh wells, I used to hate the Red Sox and Celtics as well.

This is what happens when you live in LA without a football or baseball team.

At least the Bruins finished in the Top 10...crumbs.

Uconn men college basketball, Bruins, Celtics, Red Sox, Patriots ALL champs within the last 6 years. Don't even get me started on UCONN woman. The only thing we lack is college football.

[SBash]

[QUOTE=SBash;1691823]

They lead the league, and still don't get called as much as they admit to holding.

So Carroll cheated, but only at USC....ROFL.... I have a Bridge for you.
You have nothing and Carroll is one of the best liked coach in the league. All teams hold, some are better than others. Every coach in the league go to the limits or grey area. Did you know the Hawks have the lightest defense in the league, but they're built on speed and tackling.

BTW, I was rooting for the Colts to win...They just don't match up well with the Patriots. Would have liked to see two young quarterbacks duke it out. I really like Andrew Luck. He needs some help in certain positions...If he had the Seahawks defense, maybe a different outcome.

The Hawks had the worst offencive game I have seen them play in years with the exception of the last quarter. If the Seahawks offence play to there potential, with our great defense I think they can hold the Patriots to one touchdown and a couple field goals.

[SBash]

delete

[nighthawk]

Hope the Patriots win.

I hate both teams but I HATE Pete Carroll most.

What a moral dilemma. Oh wells, I used to hate the Red Sox and Celtics as well.

This is what happens when you live in LA without a football or baseball team.

At least the Bruins finished in the Top 10...crumbs.

Beeatnick, I am not liking your style. :) ;)

-nighthawk (born in LA, raised in MA)

[Climb01742]

This is from CBS broadcast of Packers game Nov. 30. Jim Nantz talking to Phil Simms:

Nantz: We talked to [Aaron] Rodgers about 'How do you like your footballs?' Because, you know, you can rub them up before the game. [Phil], you really kind of created that for everybody else in the league.

Simms: I don’t know if I did, because the quarterbacks got tired of them complaining. But he said something [that] was unique: 'I like to push the limit to how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it.' Because he thinks it’s easier for him to grip. He likes them tight. Of course, he’s got very big hands and you can tell that by watching him play.

So in the minds of those who believe BB 'cheats', does Rodgers cheat too? He admits to circumventing league rules, then sees if he gets 'caught'. Will there be an outcry about this? Rodgers is very likable so I bet he gets a pass.

But I do bet this sort of admission will complicate the NFL's investigation into deflategate. If, and that's a big if at this point, it's found the Pats under-inflated their footballs, yet other teams admit to over-inflating their footballs, how will the NFL mete out 'justice'?

Last thought. The next time the Pats play the Colts, the beatdown the Pats put on them will be epic. And deserved. What crybabies.

[SBash]

Let's take something we all know - Lance Armstrong and cheating - and something we don't know as much about - Belichick as a coach cheating

Let's do an analogy of Bill Belichick and 'spygate' - cause that's REALLY all you have, the formations were legal and the ball thing is rather pathetic. So how doe s spygate stack up to a world-class cheater (again, one we all know what he did).

i would put it up there about as high as Lance hiring all the Spanish climbers, the 'look', and the time he insisted on wearing the jersey with cancer survivors rather than the team jersey.

So saying the pats are 'institutionalized cheating from the top down' - is a far, far, far stretch.

As for the annoying #gohawks and jersey sales. I've worked for a company in Seattle for about 8 years - went there a ton. Not. A. Sports. Town. NYC, Philly, Boston and Chicago are sports towns - Redskins routinely get the most money from their logo and team name - anyone who has ever lived in DC can tell you. Not. A. Sports. Town. Seattle is the same.

US Postal sold a bunch of jerseys for a bunch of years - even radio shack did, too. Is anyone gonna try to say that those were real "bike racing fans?" No, they were Lance fans. Seattle shouldn't have made it this far, GB lost the game, not seattle winning. Those jersey sales will be lacking soon enough.

I've live here for over 60 years and Seattle is a football town...Have packed the stadiums since the beginning with both Huskies and Seahawks. Other sports not so much.

[Len J]

[QUOTE=Len J;1691856]
You have nothing and Carroll is one of the best liked coach in the league. All teams hold, some are better than others. Every coach in the league go to the limits or grey area. Did you know the Hawks have the lightest defense in the league, but they're built on speed and tackling.

BTW, I was rooting for the Colts to win...They just don't match up well with the Patriots. Would have liked to see two young quarterbacks duke it out. I really like Andrew Luck. He needs some help in certain positions...If he had the Seahawks defense, maybe a different outcome.

The Hawks had the worst offencive game I have seen them play in years with the exception of the last quarter. If the Seahawks offence play to there potential, with our great defense I think they can hold the Patriots to one touchdown and a couple field goals.

Let me clear something up. I'm not a colts fan.... never have been. This isn't about the colts. I called the NE loss.... it's about presumption re a convicted cheater about cheating.

Len

[beeatnik]

Beeatnick, I am not liking your style. :) ;)

-nighthawk (born in LA, raised in MA)

Then, you love the Lakers, right? :cool:

Soooo many Boston fans (transplants) out here. That said Sonny McLeans is my favorite pub in LA. Always fun to pop in during the NFL playoffs. Awesome atmosphere.

http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/5/75493/restaurant/LA/Sonny-McLeans-Irish-Pub-Santa-Monica

[Len J]

Len

When is Spygate over? That was 8 years ago.

What other infractions can you name from the Patriots?

The formation issue against the Ravens was LEGAL and used by many college and NFL teams (Detroit vs Minnesota just a few weeks ago).

Name something else. Seriously.

People hate the Patriots because they are successful and have been longer than any other franchise in recent times.

Also because BB is easy to hate. He likes it that way. So does the team. It's motivational for them (world vs us).

The biggest issue right now is that this is dragging out. It is inconceivable to me that the NFL can't figure out if anything happened and make a decision. The league and it's ability to handle this kind of stuff is the biggest issue/joke.

BK

Is there a statute of limitations on integrity?

NFL said today they would have a decision in 2-3 days.

Len

[shovelhd]

That said Sonny McLeans is my favorite pub in LA. Always fun to pop in during the NFL playoffs. Awesome atmosphere.

Professor Thom's in NYC. Same deal.

[wc1934]

This is from CBS broadcast of Packers game Nov. 30. Jim Nantz talking to Phil Simms:

Nantz: We talked to [Aaron] Rodgers about 'How do you like your footballs?' Because, you know, you can rub them up before the game. [Phil], you really kind of created that for everybody else in the league.

Simms: I don’t know if I did, because the quarterbacks got tired of them complaining. But he said something [that] was unique: 'I like to push the limit to how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it.' Because he thinks it’s easier for him to grip. He likes them tight. Of course, he’s got very big hands and you can tell that by watching him play.

So in the minds of those who believe BB 'cheats', does Rodgers cheat too? He admits to circumventing league rules, then sees if he gets 'caught'. Wil
be an outcry about this? Rodgers is very likable so I bet he gets a pass.
But I do bet this sort of admission will complicate the NFL's investigation into deflategate. If, and that's a big if at this point, it's found the Pats under-inflated their footballs, yet other teams admit to over-inflating their footballs, how will the NFL mete out 'justice'?

Last thought. The next time the Pats play the Colts, the beatdown the Pats put on them will be epic. And deserved. What crybabies.

EXACTLY

http://www.massholesports.com/2015/01/video-announcers-discuss-on-air-how.html?m=1

[Bruce K]

Yeah, actually there is.

You serve your penalty and you stay clean for some amount of time and you're supposed to be able to redeem yourself. Otherwise people sent to prison would never get out.

Repeat offenses alter that equation

Otherwise let's talk about "Bountygate", teams that have lost draft picks for tampering, yes, Pete Carroll and USC, Ray Rice, and the list can go on and on.

The Colts got crushed and embarrassed and now they're whining.

The Ravens coughed up a hairball and couldn't keep the Pats from overcoming 2 - 14 point deficits and they whined too.

Green Bay & Aaron Rodgers overinflated balls and admit it and no one cares

It really is a Patriot and BB dislike issue we are dealing with here

BK

[SBash]

[QUOTE=SBash;1691874]

Let me clear something up. I'm not a colts fan.... never have been. This isn't about the colts. I called the NE loss.... it's about presumption re a convicted cheater about cheating.

Len

Well I just don't see it the way you do...Patriots in the pass, yes...but that's over. Seattle, hell no...We just won our 1st Super Bowl in 38 years with a team that's built around one of the best defense's ever, and with a few all-pros that were late draft pics...Pete Carroll built this team and I don't see anything close to cheating.

[Climb01742]

If you listen to the tape of Nantz and Sims talking, there's an admiring tone to their voice, like they're proud of Rodgers' 'gamesmanship'. So if the guy is funny in insurance commercials, it's gamersmanship. But if you're a sourpuss in a hoodie, it's cheating? Can't wait to see how Goddell parses this one.

[Aaron O]

Poor victimized Belicheck.

You know...the football fraternity is awfully small, and the players rarely break ranks and talk about things like this. Why is Belicheck the only guy I've ever heard players and other coaches particularly call a cheating sleaze ball? Hollis Thomas never called any other coach a cheating turd. For all his tension with the steelers, Hines ward never called billick a cheating turd. I've never heard bill Parcells call any other coach a turd. I've never heard don Shula call any other coach a turd.

Pats fans can obfuscate and try to talk about Ray rice as much as they want - how come after over 20 years of coaching, the only coach Shula called a cheat was Belicheck?

[laupsi]

Y
The Ravens coughed up a hairball and couldn't keep the Pats from overcoming 2 - 14 point deficits and they whined too.
BK

I realize I'm biased here but when/how did the Raven's whine?

[Climb01742]

I realize I'm biased here but when/how did the Raven's whine?

About Pats eligible/ineligible receivers formations in the game a week ago. Harbaugh's comments were pretty whiny, don't you think?

Then you could add Ray Lewis' rant about Brady would be nothing without the tuck rule.

Speaking as a Pats fan, no one plays us harder or better than the Ravens. But their comments aren't always gracious.

[djg21]

I realize I'm biased here but when/how did the Raven's whine?

John Harbaugh is still whining about the Pats' irregular formations and ineligible receivers. If the Ravens defense couldn't adjust quickly enough, Harbaugh could have called a time out. He failed.

[laupsi]

About Pats eligible/ineligible receivers formations in the game a week ago. Harbaugh's comments were pretty whiny, don't you think?

Then you could add Ray Lewis' rant about Brady would be nothing without the tuck rule.

Speaking as a Pats fan, no one plays us harder or better than the Ravens. But their comments aren't always gracious.

RL is no longer a Raven. Harbaugh was outcoached, the league indicated everything was legal. I missed his rant, then again I'm used the "Harbaugh Way". As for Whiners, sorry there isn't anyone whinier than TB when he has a bad day at the office.

[Aaron O]

It was a sad day in philly when harbaugh left.

[93legendti]

I wish we had a coach like BB in Detroit...

[Climb01742]

Poor victimized Belicheck.

You know...the football fraternity is awfully small, and the players rarely break ranks and talk about things like this. Why is Belicheck the only guy I've ever heard players and other coaches particularly call a cheating sleaze ball? Hollis Thomas never called any other coach a cheating turd. For all his tension with the steelers, Hines ward never called billick a cheating turd. I've never heard bill Parcells call any other coach a turd. I've never heard don Shula call any other coach a turd.

Pats fans can obfuscate and try to talk about Ray rice as much as they want - how come after over 20 years of coaching, the only coach Shula called a cheat was Belicheck?

Since you're apparently invested in this, care to comment on what Aaron Rodgers said about him over-inflating Packer footballs beyond league rules? Or can only the Pats do wrong?

[Aaron O]

Since you're apparently invested in this, care to comment on what Aaron Rodgers said about him over-inflating Packer footballs beyond league rules? Or can only the Pats do wrong?

I'd rather dissect your comment. ;)

Why would you say "since I'm invested in this?" You've commented on the thread as much as I have, so you're at least as invested as me. I dislike Belicheck because I have serious doubts over whether you earned your ring against my eagles. I am absolutely sour grapes. I dislike Belicheck because he is a convicted cheater. I dislike him because of his attitude. I dislike some of the players you've had - like Rodney Harrison.

I also dislike him due to jealousy. I'll admit it. And I'll also admit that I wish our coaches were as successful. I'm a hater :p

This seems like non-sense to me...but do I think bill Belicheck would break a league rule in a championship game? Yes - I do think so, and I do think he is a bigger scum ball than other coaches. A lot of other coaches and players seem to think so too. So...I'll wait to see if it has legs.

The thread had a whoa as me, poor Belicheck tone to it...and when you act like Belicheck, and get caught, as he did, you don't get to,play the victim.

The guy is a jerk - you know it. I respect that you enjoy his success - and if he were our coach, I'd enjoy it too. But I'd admit he's a scum ball ;)

[djg21]

It was a sad day in philly when harbaugh left.

Are you being facetious? I really can't tell.

[peanutgallery]

what's this "we", what position do you play?
Seattle cheats too. Adderall, USC, I could go on.

Its professional football, everyone pushes the envelope. If not, you'll soon be unemplyed

[QUOTE=Len J;1691889]

Well I just don't see it the way you do...Patriots in the pass, yes...but that's over. Seattle, hell no...We just won our 1st Super Bowl in 38 years with a team that's built around one of the best defense's ever, and with a few all-pros that were late draft pics...Pete Carroll built this team and I don't see anything close to cheating.

[Aaron O]

Are you being facetious? I really can't tell.

I'm sorry - no. Not even a little bit. Before harbaugh we had special team issues every season. After Harbaugh? It didn't really happen. One season and special teams were markedly better.

He was promoted to a position coach he wasn't ideally suited for and his unit still improved. It fell apart completely the year after he left.

I liked harbaugh a lot...I was hoping we'd find a way to keep him when he left for Baltimore.

[moose8]

Pats fans can obfuscate and try to talk about Ray rice as much as they want - how come after over 20 years of coaching, the only coach Shula called a cheat was Belicheck?

I'm guessing it's because Shula feels threatened by his record - are any other coaches even close to Shula when it comes to best ever coach?

[wc1934]

we don't take it very seriously - hahah

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tanyarayfox/10-things-that-prove-the-new-england-patriots-are-1530e

[wc1934]

[QUOTE=Len J;1691781]More PED violations than any other team. One of the youngest teams in the NFL and several teams right behind them on PED's...I think Bruce Irvin was the last and he was suspended for 4 games.

The statement "we will pass interfere every play knowing they won'T call them all. "
BS, Seahawks lead the league in penalty's..so you have nothing there.

Hiring a cheater as head coach.
No he's not...He coaches the Seahawks! You need to get over the USC thing.

People bring their integrity with them, integrity doesn't change.
Nothing here, just your opinion.



Just bringing things fans don't like...... Facts.
Seahawks are one of America’s favorite teams and at the top in the league in Jersey sales.

Go SeaHawks!:hello:



I know you don't believe Pete is clean (even if we "get over the usc thing")

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/seahawks/2014/08/26/pete-carroll-fine-cba-seattle-minicamp/14646221/

[CaptStash]

It's kind of interesting to me to hear the dislike for the Seahawks from other than Fortyniners fans (I'm used to them disliking the 'hawks, and to be honest, a lot of us Seahawks fans love to hate the 'niners, especially when HArbaugh was at the helm.)

I grew up an L.A. Rams fan, and will be royally screwed and confused if they move back. I loved the Rams (but only in LA), and also love the Seahawks. Love them or hate them, they are clearly different. The camaraderie evident between the teammates make them different form most of the teams you see in any pro league. Pete Carroll's system is clearly working in Seattle, and that system isn't complicated. It's based on fundamentals, earning your spot on the depth chart, and trusting your teammates to do their job.

Carroll and John Schneider may very well be on the verge of creating a dynasty to take over for the Pats dynasty. No team since the Fortyniners under Walsh and Seiffert have been as consistent as the Pats, but the youth, salary cap math, and proven ability to find and develop talent suggests that Seattle may well be on that track.

As to Seattle not being a "Sports town" I don't know what that means. I do know that the whole "Twelves" phenomena has been a lot of fun. My wife has become a huge football fan (having a son go to a football power high school doesn't hurt either), and we have a good time watching the games together. Due to a power outage, we went down to our little village (Magnolia which is a neighborhood in Seattle). It was the most fun I have had watching a football game since I watched Cal beat John Elway with "The Play" (Google it if you don't know what I mean).

I'm looking forward to the Super Bowl, and hoping (expecting?) to see Russell Wilson stay unbeaten against Super Bowl winning quarterbacks.

CaptStash....

[sitzmark]

http://www.rilenews.com/stories/sports/nfl-investigating-bill-belichick-black-magic/

[Aaron O]

.

[CaptStash]

.

Ok...

But then again, the Seahawks have been selling out their new stadium since the beginning, and always sold pretty well in the dome back before we had the CLink. Not to mention the fact that Seattle is a mostly Huskies town, and the legion of Husky season ticket holders. It sounds like you are just annoyed that there are now more Seahawk fans in the city than there used to be, and that the Seahawks, as a relatively new franchise, don't have as much tradition as some other clubs. I still don't see the big negative. The club is bringing lots of fans to the game. It's fun. Roll with it.

CaptStash....

PS: We are guaranteed to have a Super Bowl winning Cal Bear running back this year. How cool is that?

[unterhausen]

the cheating that bugs me the most is pass interference when a db is beaten, especially late in the game when a score could change the winner.

I'm sure that if the Colts thought the ball inflation was wonky they could have complained during the game. I just can't see this leading to the kind of butt-kicking that the Colts got

I'm not a Pats fan, but when they had the chance to shut up those damn undefeated Dolphins, I was rooting for them. Hated that team then and I still hold out hope someone will go undefeated. I'd even be willing to have it be the Cowboys, and my favorite team is whoever is playing the Coyboys this week

[Aaron O]

Ok...

But then again, the Seahawks have been selling out their new stadium since the beginning, and always sold pretty well in the dome back before we had the CLink. Not to mention the fact that Seattle is a mostly Huskies town, and the legion of Husky season ticket holders. It sounds like you are just annoyed that there are now more Seahawk fans in the city than there used to be, and that the Seahawks, as a relatively new franchise, don't have as much tradition as some other clubs. I still don't see the big negative. The club is bringing lots of fans to the game. It's fun. Roll with it.

CaptStash....

PS: We are guaranteed to have a Super Bowl winning Cal Bear running back this year. How cool is that?

Don't mind me - I'm just bitter over football. I actually love that Seattle made playing defense cool again.

I think the college team thing is part of why north east fans are so rabid over pro football. We don't really have competitive college teams for the most part...so pro football gets a push in emotion.

I went down to dallas a few years back for a game. Dallas fans in philly and NY are mostly THE WORST. It's their entire identity, and they usually pick dallas as a reactionary thing to annoy people. So to me Dallas fans were these incredibly obnoxious, loud, emotional SOBs. I'm prepared for that in Dallas. Instead you got these very genteel, calm people who mostly didn't care that much and thought it was amazing that people would go that far to watch football. One of them bought me a beer. In philly, the only beer an opposing fan gets is over his child's head!

In Dallas they care about high school and college ball - the pros? Less passion. Then I realized - Dallas fans in the north east are just obnoxious northe east fans in a different jersey. Pro-ball is different here.

[Aaron O]

the cheating that bugs me the most is pass interference when a db is beaten, especially late in the game when a score could change the winner.

I'm sure that if the Colts thought the ball inflation was wonky they could have complained during the game. I just can't see this leading to the kind of butt-kicking that the Colts got

I'm not a Pats fan, but when they had the chance to shut up those damn undefeated Dolphins, I was rooting for them. Hated that team then and I still hold out hope someone will go undefeated. I'd even be willing to have it be the Cowboys, and my favorite team is whoever is playing the Coyboys this week

I go back and forth over whether I hate the gauchos more or the Washington native Americans. Probably the native Americans.

[unterhausen]

I grew up as a native American fan. The NFL should give Snyder a one time good deal on the name change, 50 percent of the the first year jersey sales. That would wake him up.

What really turned me against the 'boys was Pat Summerall and his, "America's team" propagandizing. That used to drive me nuts

[Aaron O]

I grew up as a native American fan. The NFL should give Snyder a one time good deal on the name change, 50 percent of the the first year jersey sales. That would wake him up.

What really turned me against the 'boys was Pat Summerall and his, "America's team" propagandizing. That used to drive me nuts

I have the best name for them after the switch...

The Washington Gridlock

[cloudguy]

As my four-year-old would say: "CHEATERS, CHEATERS, PUMPKIN EATERS!!!!"

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4776756/patriots-should-be-held-accountable

[velomonkey]

As my four-year-old would say: "CHEATERS, CHEATERS, PUMPKIN EATERS!!!!"

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4776756/patriots-should-be-held-accountable



Thankfully in complex situations like this, sports fans have a strong track record of patience, understanding and not jumping to conclusions.

[unterhausen]

heh, that ESPN article is silly. What do they weigh the balls with, a watt balance?

[Len J]

the cheating that bugs me the most is pass interference when a db is beaten, especially late in the game when a score could change the winner.



I'm sure that if the Colts thought the ball inflation was wonky they could have complained during the game. I just can't see this leading to the kind of butt-kicking that the Colts got



I'm not a Pats fan, but when they had the chance to shut up those damn undefeated Dolphins, I was rooting for them. Hated that team then and I still hold out hope someone will go undefeated. I'd even be willing to have it be the Cowboys, and my favorite team is whoever is playing the Coyboys this week


Since each offense has its own balls, how exactly would the colts have known to complain? They finally noticed on the INT,

[Len J]

It's now being reported that the NFL has found 11 of the 12 PATs balls were under inflated by 15%. Sure total coincidence.

[bikerboy337]

huge pats fan here and just can't fathom this... itd be one thing if they were all like .5psi below the limits, but an average of 2psi below the lower limit is just huge...

it will be interesting to see what happens. Bill has definately tarnished his image yet again and the Pats will be even more hated...

[peanutgallery]

Wilson owns SRAM, that's what happened:)

It's now being reported that the NFL has found 11 of the 12 PATs balls were under inflated by 15%. Sure total coincidence.

[moose8]

huge pats fan here and just can't fathom this... itd be one thing if they were all like .5psi below the limits, but an average of 2psi below the lower limit is just huge...

it will be interesting to see what happens. Bill has definately tarnished his image yet again and the Pats will be even more hated...

Agree 100%. It's a shame. Hopefully there isn't anythig nefarious going on but often times the simplest explanation is the most likely, and it sure seems simplest that the balls were tampered with.

[velomonkey]

It's now being reported that the NFL has found 11 of the 12 PATs balls were under inflated by 15%. Sure total coincidence.


We all do know that basic science tells us the ball is going to lose air in cold weather. This is why you have to pump up your tires more in cold weather versus warm weather. Here, let me have a NFL kicker explain it to you

http://www.hypun.com/meme/5701/Graham_Gano_Tweets_About_Flat_Footballs

Probably the reason 11 of 12 were under inflated, by about 1.2 psi, is cause they were all effected by the weather - not because they were all tampered with.

Complaining about this as proof as cheating is about up there with saying Lance cheated cause he aged his tubulars in some basement in France.

[rwsaunders]

Now they are saying that the balls were made by Veloflex and rebranded as Wilson...the air loss makes sense to me now.

[tele]

This is so much more than a Patriots thing:
http://nesn.com/2015/01/bucs-qb-brad-johnson-paid-some-guys-to-alter-footballs-before-super-bowl-xxxvii/

There is a video on nfl.com somewhere showing the ball boys during the Panthers-Vikings game earlier this year warming up the balls because it was so cold out...a clear violation of the rules and yet this blows up because its the Patriots.

Bull·····, the NFL is a cutthroat league and this happens all the time.

[eippo1]

Agree 100%. It's a shame. Hopefully there isn't anythig nefarious going on but often times the simplest explanation is the most likely, and it sure seems simplest that the balls were tampered with.

Yup, annoying as I just want to root for my team. My brother (Ravens fan) will be all over me. No matter if they win or lose the Super Bowl, the ball thing will be a subscript. It does make me wonder if they even checked the Colts balls. But yeah, sucks overall and it certainly seems as if they tampered with the balls.

Whelp, I'll just go back to focusing on the Bruins. At least I'm pretty sure they don't add lead to the puck.

[GeorgeTSquirrel]

Probably the reason 11 of 12 were under inflated, by about 1.2 psi, is cause they were all effected by the weather - not because they were all tampered with.

Complaining about this as proof as cheating is about up there with saying Lance cheated cause he aged his tubulars in some basement in France.

I'm sure the balls supplied by the Colts must have been over-inflated because we know NE would never cheat in a football game.

[velomonkey]

I'm sure the balls supplied by the Colts must have been over-inflated because we know NE would never cheat in a football game.


So the evidence of cheating is "spygate" which wasn't cheating as much as it was Beleichick thumbing his nose at the NFL and some deflated balls.

You might as well complain that the Colts locker room was served sour grapes while you're at it.

[velomonkey]

"The pressure of a gas of fixed mass and fixed volume is directly proportional to the gas's absolute temperature."

So P/T = Constant

For comparing the same substance under two different sets of conditions, the law can be written as:

P1/T1 = P2/T2

I'm also going to do this in Metric to avoid other potential errors. And I apologize that I am 20 years from doing this sort of work

12.5psi = 86.18kPa ( kilo Pascals)
75F=23.89C = 297.04K
30F=-1.11C = 272.04K

So
86.18/297.04 = P2/272.04

0.29= P2/272.04

P2=78.93kPa

78.93kPa= 11.45PSI

Temperature change from 75 to 30 degrees would result in the balls losing 1 pound of pressure per square inch.

Why don't you all complain that the Pats did a rain dance prior to the game.

[MattTuck]

As someone else said, why are the teams allowed to handle the balls at all after they are inspected by the officials?

The NFL and broadcasters are loving this. I'll bet a waterbottle that by next season (and maybe even by the superbowl) the ball inspection is going to be recorded, probably broadcast, sponsored by someone, and provide a segue into another block of commercials in the pre-pre-game.

[Aaron O]

We all do know that basic science tells us the ball is going to lose air in cold weather. This is why you have to pump up your tires more in cold weather versus warm weather. Here, let me have a NFL kicker explain it to you

http://www.hypun.com/meme/5701/Graham_Gano_Tweets_About_Flat_Footballs

Probably the reason 11 of 12 were under inflated, by about 1.2 psi, is cause they were all effected by the weather - not because they were all tampered with.

Complaining about this as proof as cheating is about up there with saying Lance cheated cause he aged his tubulars in some basement in France.

I'm pretty sure that the NFL understands that...and I'm pretty sure that the change was abnormally large or it would never have even noticed in the first place.

I'll ask again - do you think there's a reason that this stuff happens with NE and not other teams? Please give an answer other than they're picking on us or jealous.

FYI - if this is found to have legs, i think Belicheck should receive a life time ban, the pats should be fined a first round pick in two consecutive drafts and we should consider the asterisk for past bowls.

I wonder how much stuff these scum balls AREN'T caught for.

[MattTuck]

heh, that ESPN article is silly. What do they weigh the balls with, a watt balance?

I've been laughing at this also. 8th grade science class must have been the last time they studied pressure. The difference between a ball weighing a certain number of pounds is different than the ball being inflated to a certain number of pounds per inch.

I've seen many people suggesting that you can determine the inflation by weighing the balls, makes me laugh.

Dimensional analysis people!!

[eippo1]

I'm pretty sure that the NFL understands that...and I'm pretty sure that the change was abnormally large or it would never have even noticed in the first place.

I'll ask again - do you think there's a reason that this stuff happens with NE and not other teams? Please give an answer other than they're picking on us or jealous.

FYI - if this is found to have legs, i think Belicheck should receive a life time ban, the pats should be fined a first round pick in two consecutive drafts and we should consider the asterisk for past bowls.

I wonder how much stuff these scum balls AREN'T caught for.

Really? Wow. I never got how people get so vehement over sports. Also, stuff like this goes on everywhere. The Vikings got in trouble for heating balls earlier:
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings

[93legendti]

I am sure kickers optimize pressure for their kicks- long, short, etc...like a pitcher rejecting a baseball and then trying to loosen up the cover a bit for better control/spin/movement and/or taking the shine off a new ball so it's harder to pick up. Baseball teams optimize their infields to suit their defense and/or a lead off hitter that hits a lot of infield singles.

I am sure Brady (or the equipment guy) is smart enough to know what pressures he likes, without involving the head coach.

Either way, they are in the Super Bowl. I hope they win.

[soulspinner]

Tom and Wes Welker will get over it at the track with a little E............

[MattTuck]

Really? Wow. I never got how people get so vehement over sports. Also, stuff like this goes on everywhere. The Vikings got in trouble for heating balls earlier:
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings

Add to that, there is already a stated policy and punishment for violating the rules. $25,000 fine, I think.

[makoti]

Bill has definately tarnished his image yet again and the Pats will be even more hated...

Bill is headed for Barry Bonds status...

[ORMojo]

OK, the ESPN article may be poorly written, but it is also apparently being poorly read by some of us. The article states that the balls "came in under-inflated by two pounds of air (PSI) when weighed..."

"when weighed" was probably the wrong way to state that, but also probably the simplest and most understandable by the majority of readers. Remember, you are supposed to write to be understood at an 8th grade level . . . at best.

If you forgive them that, and if you check the facts behind the article, the "came in under-inflated by two pounds of air (PSI)" pretty clearly conveys that they checked the pressure. All you need to do is click on ESPN's own original article (the article linked in this thread in post #119 is a follow-up article that makes the error). The original article clearly states "The investigation found the footballs were inflated 2 pounds per square inch below what's required by NFL regulations . . . " and makes no reference to weighing the balls.

"The pressure of a gas of fixed mass and fixed volume is directly proportional to the gas's absolute temperature."

. . .

Temperature change from 75 to 30 degrees would result in the balls losing 1 pound of pressure per square inch.


Great information and education . . . IF the game day temperature in Foxboro was 75 degrees 2.25 hours prior to kickoff and 30 degrees at kickoff. The unknown (to me) is whether the balls were checked 2.25 hours before kickoff in an indoor or outdoor setting. But the outdoor temperature at kickoff was 48 degrees, not 30. The outdoor temperature 2.25 earlier was 50 degrees, and an indoor temperature assumption of 75 degrees seems too high.

Another variable is when were the balls checked for the second time. The only information I can find on that states that the balls were checked "either after or during" the game. The outdoor temperature was 46-47 degrees around the time that the game ended.

So let's assume they were checked the first time indoors at 70 degrees, and then the second time outdoors at 47 degrees. That would result in a change of 0.55 pound of pressure, not enough to result in the 2 pound difference they found in all but 1 of the Patriot's balls.

And, what if the balls were checked at the same temperature both times? That actually seems like the most plausible scenario to me - that the officials would have the equipment to test in one location, whether indoors or outdoors, and the testing would take place at that location both times.

And to the question of why it would provide an advantage, to those saying both teams would be using the same balls on offense. No. "Under NFL rules, each team provides balls each game for use when its offense is on the field." So each offense uses its own balls, not the same balls that the opposing offense is using.

[djg21]

Even if these allegations are true, the manipulation of balls by means of scuffing, under- and overinflating, heating, etc, given the admissions being attributed to Rodgers and various asst coaches around the league (according to Bleacher Report), appears to be common and widespread. It also appears to be yet another NFL officiating failure and a tempest in a teapot.

I wouldn't be surprised if this story is the NFL's effort to increase interest, and hence ratings.

[makoti]

Great information and education . . . IF the game day temperature in Foxboro was 75 degrees 2.25 hours prior to kickoff and 30 degrees at kickoff. The unknown (to me) is whether the balls were checked 2.25 hours before kickoff in an indoor or outdoor setting. But the outdoor temperature at kickoff was 48 degrees, not 30. The outdoor temperature 2.25 earlier was 50 degrees, and an indoor temperature assumption of 75 degrees seems too high.

Another variable is when were the balls checked for the second time. The only information I can find on that states that the balls were checked "either after or during" the game. The outdoor temperature was 46-47 degrees around the time that the game ended.

So let's assume they were checked the first time indoors at 70 degrees, and then the second time outdoors at 47 degrees. That would result in a change of 0.55 pound of pressure, not enough to result in the 2 pound difference they found in all but 1 of the Patriot's balls.

And, what if the balls were checked at the same temperature both times? That actually seems like the most plausible scenario to me - that the officials would have the equipment to test in one location, whether indoors or outdoors, and the testing would take place at that location both times.

And to the question of why it would provide an advantage, to those saying both teams would be using the same balls on offense. No. "Under NFL rules, each team provides balls each game for use when its offense is on the field." So each offense uses its own balls, not the same balls that the opposing offense is using.

Hopefully, they thought to check the Indy footballs, too. Although I doubt that. If they were at spec, then the entire weather thing is shot.

[unterhausen]

OK, the ESPN article may be poorly written, but it is also apparently being poorly read by some of us. The article states that the balls "came in under-inflated by two pounds of air (PSI) when weighed..."

"when weighed" was probably the wrong way to state that, but also probably the simplest and most understandable by the majority of readers. Remember, you are supposed to write to be understood at an 8th grade level . . . at best.
no, the person that wrote it is a moron, plain and simple. Apparently 2 psi of air in a football sized volume weighs about a gram, so you could measure it that way -- if the football was pristine and absolutely uniform in every other way. Don't the sportswriters at espn check their tire inflation? No, probably not

[sitzmark]

Hopefully, they thought to check the Indy footballs, too. Although I doubt that. If they were at spec, then the entire weather thing is shot.

But testing accuracy is not. Scientific investigation requires controlling all variables. If the IND balls weren't re-validated the "investigation" can't be credible. The testing device and procedural testing process needed to be performed across all balls to control for change in the device(s) and/or testing personnel's technique.

[93legendti]

'Johnson, who perspired heavily in his football equipment, was adamant about having the 100 or so newly made Super Bowl game balls roughed up for a better grip.

“I paid some guys off to get the balls right,” Johnson told Stroud. “I went and got all 100 footballs, and they took care of them all.”

Tampa Bay went on to roll Oakland 48-21. Johnson says he paid $7,500 to have a number of individuals (who remain unidentified) perform the task. He claims he couldn’t have performed without the altered balls.'

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2337416-former-tampa-bay-qb-brad-johnson-says-he-paid-people-to-tamper-with-footballs?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-league

[russ46]

If Car Talk was still doing new shows on NPR they would have used this for a Puzzler.
Although given where they lived, maybe not.......

[dave thompson]

.https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153157734490809&fref=nf

[Aaron O]

Add to that, there is already a stated policy and punishment for violating the rules. $25,000 fine, I think.

If we add life time ban, it seems about right :banana:

[Aaron O]

Really? Wow. I never got how people get so vehement over sports. Also, stuff like this goes on everywhere. The Vikings got in trouble for heating balls earlier:
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings

The difference is that with the vikings, a life time suspension of their coaches isn't usually a punishment.

[Len J]

We all do know that basic science tells us the ball is going to lose air in cold weather. This is why you have to pump up your tires more in cold weather versus warm weather. Here, let me have a NFL kicker explain it to you

http://www.hypun.com/meme/5701/Graham_Gano_Tweets_About_Flat_Footballs

Probably the reason 11 of 12 were under inflated, by about 1.2 psi, is cause they were all effected by the weather - not because they were all tampered with.

Complaining about this as proof as cheating is about up there with saying Lance cheated cause he aged his tubulars in some basement in France.

It was 51 degrees. Science would say very little of the deflation was caused by temperature. Thanks for playing though.

Len

[Len J]

"The pressure of a gas of fixed mass and fixed volume is directly proportional to the gas's absolute temperature."

So P/T = Constant

For comparing the same substance under two different sets of conditions, the law can be written as:

P1/T1 = P2/T2

I'm also going to do this in Metric to avoid other potential errors. And I apologize that I am 20 years from doing this sort of work

12.5psi = 86.18kPa ( kilo Pascals)
75F=23.89C = 297.04K
30F=-1.11C = 272.04K

So
86.18/297.04 = P2/272.04

0.29= P2/272.04

P2=78.93kPa

78.93kPa= 11.45PSI

Temperature change from 75 to 30 degrees would result in the balls losing 1 pound of pressure per square inch.

Why don't you all complain that the Pats did a rain dance prior to the game.

But it was 51 degrees at game time not 30.

Len

[buddybikes]

Maybe they had latex bladders to be more comfortable, but leak faster...

[Louis]

All this is so typical of the NFL and all it's rules - everything is blown to be soooo complicated. Next thing you know, all the balls used by both teams will have to be kept in a temperature and humidity controlled bin on the sideline, with the weight, size, pressure, and friction coefficient measured before each play. 100 balls will be used, and rotated in sequentially throughout the game.

(I'm going to end up sounding like Ray and his FRN rants with all this "the NFL rules are too complicated" ranting I do, but I'm right, d@mn it.)

[verticaldoug]

All this is so typical of the NFL and all it's rules - everything is blown to be soooo complicated. Next thing you know, all the balls used by both teams will have to be kept in a temperature and humidity controlled bin on the sideline, with the weight, size, pressure, and friction coefficient measured before each play. 100 balls will be used, and rotated in sequentially throughout the game.

(I'm going to end up sounding like Ray and his FRN rants with all this "the NFL rules are too complicated" ranting I do, but I'm right, d@mn it.)

when a money is involved, things get messed up. When a lot of money is involved things get f'd up. It's complicated because someone found a way to make money off it.

[buddybikes]

Questions - are the pressure gauges "certified" Did they get removed slowly (or inserted slowly) where bit of air got out?

[alessandro]

when a money is involved, things get messed up. When a lot of money is involved things get f'd up. It's complicated because someone found a way to make money off it.

Wait--are you talking about football, or the federal reserve? :confused::confused:

[verticaldoug]

Wait--are you talking about football, or the federal reserve? :confused::confused:
both

[ergott]

All this is so typical of the NFL and all it's rules - everything is blown to be soooo complicated. Next thing you know, all the balls used by both teams will have to be kept in a temperature and humidity controlled bin on the sideline, with the weight, size, pressure, and friction coefficient measured before each play. 100 balls will be used, and rotated in sequentially throughout the game.

(I'm going to end up sounding like Ray and his FRN rants with all this "the NFL rules are too complicated" ranting I do, but I'm right, d@mn it.)

Of just have the NFL supply the footballs instead of the teams. I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't. Every other sport is this way. Even Formula 1 has the tire manufacturer supply the tires.

[juanj]

The practice of who supplies the footballs is to some extent ritualized by quarterback's need to practice with the exact footballs he will throw during a game. I recall reading this article about Eli Manning and I found it a revelation that his game balls undergo a long "conditioning," and there is a person whose sole job is to prepare his footballs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html

As some have pointed out, this is different from baseball, where the rules about how much a ball is scuffed are very strict. Baseballs are also prepped before a game, by the way. What I find surprising is how quickly balls are substituted in a baseball game. A pitch in the dirt is not used again, nor is a foul ball, etc. etc. (or perhaps the ball is checked for scuffs and put back into the rotation if it's still playable?)

[velomonkey]

Thanks for the comment on the temp, but I'm trying to go a bit deeper, hang with me. By the way, people, the balls are inflated and then checked with gauges INDOORS!! The game is played OUTDOORS.

Someone elsewhere pointed out that

Pressure gauge= Pressure absolute - Pressure atmosphere
which means I need to do my calculations with absolute pressure to use the Ideal Gas Law

Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi

12.5 + 14.7 = 27.2psi = 187.54 kPA

187.54/297.04 = P2/272.04
0.29= P2/272.04
P2=171.76kPa
171.76kPa= 24.91psi
subtract atmospheric pressure and
24.91-14.7= 10.21psi

!!!!

A ball inflated at 75 degrees to 12.5 psi will be 10.2 psi at 30 degrees!!! This matches the readings by the NFL Officials!!

UPDATE REDUX

Temperature at game time was 50F, which is 282K

187.54/297.04 = P2/272.04
P2=178.07kPa
171.76kPa= 25.82psi
subtract atmospheric pressure and
25.82-14.7= 11.15psi

A ball inflated at 75 degrees to 12.5 psi will be 11.15 psi at 50 degrees!!!

[Ttx1]

Now they are saying that the balls were made by Veloflex and rebranded as Wilson...the air loss makes sense to me now.

ok, I lol'd

[bikinchris]

The practice of who supplies the footballs is to some extent ritualized by quarterback's need to practice with the exact footballs he will throw during a game. I recall reading this article about Eli Manning and I found it a revelation that his game balls undergo a long "conditioning," and there is a person whose sole job is to prepare his footballs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html

As some have pointed out, this is different from baseball, where the rules about how much a ball is scuffed are very strict. Baseballs are also prepped before a game, by the way. What I find surprising is how quickly balls are substituted in a baseball game. A pitch in the dirt is not used again, nor is a foul ball, etc. etc. (or perhaps the ball is checked for scuffs and put back into the rotation if it's still playable?)

Balls pitched in the dirt are often, but not always put into the umpires pouch to either be played or to see if they can be played again.

And 1.15 pounds is a way from the 2 psi the balls were underinflated. BTW, the OTHER teams balls were NOT low on air.
I find it odd that that the Saints, who had the LOWEST rate of roughing and other illegal flags thrown in the NFL were penalized and had their coach suspended for a year, people are trying to defend a coach, QB and team who have been caught before breaking rules.

[Aaron O]

For what it's worth I'm currently listening to former quarterback Shaun King talk about this issue. He has said that every NFL quarterback adjusts the balls whether it's adding a little bit of air, deflating them a little bit or putting a little bit of dirt on them. He does think that spy gate is a much bigger deal.

[ergott]

The practice of who supplies the footballs is to some extent ritualized by quarterback's need to practice with the exact footballs he will throw during a game. I recall reading this article about Eli Manning and I found it a revelation that his game balls undergo a long "conditioning," and there is a person whose sole job is to prepare his footballs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html


The playing field would be level if that wasn't the case. Gameday baseballs are all conditioned the same way. Nothing wrong with that.

[malbecman]

.https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153157734490809&fref=nf


Definitely hilarous!!!! :banana:

Thank you.

[djg21]

The playing field would be level if that wasn't the case. Gameday baseballs are all conditioned the same way. Nothing wrong with that.

The reporting now is that the balls were properly (re)inflated at halftime.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2015/01/report_patriots_may_have_deflated_footballs_for_af .html?p1=story_hp

This is an NFL failure, and Roger Goodell trying to rehabilitate himself after F-ing up the Ray Lewis affair.

And I have a nagging question: assuming this was intentional, why would only 11 of the 12 balls, and not all of them, be under-inflated?

[bikinchris]

The playing field would be level if that wasn't the case. Gameday baseballs are all conditioned the same way. Nothing wrong with that.

Good point. In most sports, both teams share the same ball. If the ball is tampered with, it affects both teams equally.

Seems like the NFL should have done that a long time ago. Make both teams share the same balls.

[Aaron O]

The reporting now is that the balls were properly (re)inflated at halftime.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2015/01/report_patriots_may_have_deflated_footballs_for_af .html?p1=story_hp

This is an NFL failure, and Roger Goodell trying to rehabilitate himself after F-ing up the Ray Lewis affair.

And I have a nagging question: assuming this was intentional, why would only 11 of the 12 balls, and not all of them, be under-inflated?

It was absolutely, 100% intentional. The reason it's quite clear is the twelfth ball, which would be for the kicker/punter.

The question isn't whether it was intentional, it's whether it was a practice not followed by others. I've heard enough at this point to think this is fairly benign.

[djg21]

I don't disagree, but my understanding is that kicking balls are segregated and not the ones that were allegedly tampered with.

[velomonkey]

And it appears my math, was basically correct and I'm not even a physics teacher.

This is, by far, the best theory I have read. You warm up the balls - as there is no rule, anywhere, as to what temperature the balls need to at to get tested - after the balls are warmed, you get them tested, then you go outside and play.

The balls then naturally lose almost 2 psi. If you warmed them back up - guess what - they are at proper PSI.

If this what Belichick did - I would say it's smart, a bit diabolical, but not cheating.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/01/21/how-the-patriots-could-have-cheated-without-letting-air-out-the-ball/Eocm5m29nIlh0HRBjFWsYO/story.html

[cloudguy]

Let me guess: You think Lance didn't cheat either because he never tested positive.

[Bruce K]

Actually, according to ESPN and a press release from the Patriots, the balls were NOT re-inflated.

An additional set of 12 balls was inspected during half time and brought to the field. The delay to start the third quarter, when the officials "forgot to change the kicking ball" was due to the fact that they did not complete the inspection of the new set of balls until after the teams had returned to the field.

BK

[93legendti]

Matt Leinart says every QB alters balls...except Kurt Warner, because he used gloves.

[Clydesdale]

In the NFL the kicking balls are used by both teams and typically overinflated a little.

As to the others, teams have been finding ways to take air out or soften the balls forever. Coolers of ice to soften the ball, sitting on them, kicking them, or just plain letting air out. There are high school coaches who have been putting game balls on ice for decades, especially on bad weather nights when it's harder to tell that they feel cold.

Even without letting air out, most teams try to do something to the ball to soften and scuff it up a little as brand new balls can be pretty slick and hard. That's why you supply your own and why they almost never require teams to use new balls at the time of a game. At that level, I would guess most teams have someone on staff who gets the job of prepping the game balls.

It's definitely intentional, but it's a marginal advantage. What I mean is that while some QB's like it (typically smaller hands) others prefer a hard football. Probably a little more consistent advantage to receivers but at the pro level, I would say pretty marginal. It's mostly about grip for the thrower and not all of them like it. So while it is cheating, I doubt it is something there would be huge punishment for.

[Len J]

The reporting now is that the balls were properly (re)inflated at halftime.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2015/01/report_patriots_may_have_deflated_footballs_for_af .html?p1=story_hp

This is an NFL failure, and Roger Goodell trying to rehabilitate himself after F-ing up the Ray Lewis affair.

And I have a nagging question: assuming this was intentional, why would only 11 of the 12 balls, and not all of them, be under-inflated?


All 12 balls were under inflated. 11 of them were 2 lbs under. The other was 1 lb according to published sources.

[Len J]

Btw since the acceptable is a range of values shouldn't the under inflation be from the mean, not the low lever ( under the assumption that normal distribution would apply).

[djg21]

Whether Patriots Played Game With Properly Inflated Vince Wilfork

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nfl-investigating-whether-patriots-played-game-wit,37805/

[oldpotatoe]

The playing field would be level if that wasn't the case. Gameday baseballs are all conditioned the same way. Nothing wrong with that.

But some are kept in a humidor, like in Colorado.

[oldpotatoe]

All 12 balls were under inflated. 11 of them were 2 lbs under. The other was 1 lb according to published sources.

So each team uses only the balls they bring? Ought to be neutral balls.

[MattTuck]

So each team uses only the balls they bring? Ought to be neutral balls.

I have no issue with teams bringing their own balls, so long as they are inspected ahead of time and controlled from that point forward by the officials.

[oldpotatoe]

I have no issue with teams bringing their own balls, so long as they are inspected ahead of time and controlled from that point forward by the officials.

But I read a lot of them aren't new. Should be, IMHO.

[OtayBW]

I think they should just throw the balls away (up into the stands) after every play where the ball touches the ground - just like in baseball....:rolleyes:
That'll give everyone a new, fresh ball with plenty of air each and every time.

[sitzmark]

Actually, according to ESPN and a press release from the Patriots, the balls were NOT re-inflated.

An additional set of 12 balls was inspected during half time and brought to the field. The delay to start the third quarter, when the officials "forgot to change the kicking ball" was due to the fact that they did not complete the inspection of the new set of balls until after the teams had returned to the field.

BK

As the rules are written, there should have been no reason to change a "kicking ball". Those balls are sent directly from the manufacturer to the officiating staff and segregated from the 12 "conditioned balls" that each team/QB is allowed. The home team submits an additional 12 (non-kicking) balls for validation to be used by either team if replacements are needed. In this case the 12 "backups" should have been delivered to the Patriot's equipment manager if the original 12 were taken out of play.

[buddybikes]

Thinking about this a bit, my guess now is that Patriots ball boy pumped bunch of them up, Brady picked out his 12. Then refs perhaps checked them but didn't bother checking closely, basically good enough. Who knows if they even checked. So much going on before a game, pressure in game ball has never been highest concern. This has probably been the process forever.

[MattTuck]

This thing is both sad and hilarious to watch.

Team is playing in the super bowl in 10 days, and the coach and QB are doing press conferences about ball pressure.

The NFL has no facts because the officials probably failed to do their job, and the rules as written are so open to manipulation, that the NFL isn't going to come out of this looking any better than the Patriots. So, the patriots keep the footballs, next to a furnace that warms them up to 105 degrees, inflate the balls to 12.5 psi, and deliver them the officials for testing. Against the rules? Not according to the way it is written.

A bunch of the other QBs are probably rolling their eyes, thinking "jeeze, our footballs are going to be under a microscope next year."

I'm actually quite curious to read whatever report the NFL produces, simply because I'm curious what the facts are. Did the officials actually check the balls? Were the balls tampered with? If the second round of balls were low in air when they were in the ref's control, why was that not discovered until the third quarter?

If someone actually took a ball that the officials approved, and removed air out of it, then someone should probably be punished, but if it is someone on the Patriots, I'd hope there is someone at the NFL that gets in trouble for coming up with such a poorly written rule in the first place.

It's almost like a twilight zone episode. One wonders if the Ray Rice debacle hadn't blown up in the NFL's face in the fall, if they wouldn't be so concerned with this investigation.

[verticaldoug]

I tend to agree with someone who posted earlier this is a marketing ploy to hype the game and NFL is playing fans for dumbsuckers. The only thing which will get their attention is a fan movement to turn off the game.

I listened to Brady on the radio yesterday and came away with the opinion whatever happened was SOP. So somehow the deflation story went viral with ESPN behind it, and now the NFL is flogging it for all the pre game hype it can generate. (13 pages and counting on a cycling forum. They are good, aren't they?)

Bellicheck has to play the bad guy laughing all the way to the bank, Brady is Luke Skywalker being corrupted by the darkside, now all we need is for Giselle to weigh in and pull some other WAGs hair for bad mouthing her Tom. (Wait, Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski are doing pre-game, Giselle can duke it out with Tara) This is now a World Wide Wrestling Production Ring side.

Call it what it is - The Theatre of the Absurd.

[ergott]

Brady is Luke Skywalker being corrupted by the darkside

Or perhaps Anakin and we know how that story goes...

We'll have to wait another year to find out if Luke eventually succumbs to the dark side.

[shovelhd]

Hey Tom, did you catch the number of that bus?

[oldpotatoe]

Baseball too.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/15079018

I am SURE the Colts got their butt kicked because of this, SURE!!

Ya know it were the Raiders who beat the Patriots like this, I would wonder but.

[rugbysecondrow]

Look at the direction the NFL has taken in recent years, it is offense friendly.

They want to see scoring, touchdown passes, great highlight reel catches. The rules have changed to allow this development and teams have responded with higher scoring games. How the QB prefers his balls (he he he) is tied directly to this offense friendly nature of the NFL. I suspect many teams are bemoaning the Colts causing a stink about this. As it has become apparent, many QBs have very specific game balls they prefer to use and I suspect the NFL has turned a blind eye to this because it benefited the direction they have chosen for the league. If both teams had specific team balls, is it really an advantage?

People have used the analogy of baseballs, but how about baseball bats? Each player has a size, length, weight, diameter, material...they even use pine tar to help grip. It is highly customized based on the player.

[DukeHorn]

Brady's press conference was excruciating. Probably worse than Tomsula's press conference.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/22/tom-brady-bill-belichick-deflategate-press-conference

I'm guessing a loss of a 3rd round pick at this point.

[Len J]

Update

To those of you claiming that the entire deflation was due to the weather, How do you explain that all 24 balls were tested and certified pre-game......the same 24 balls were tested at halftime and 11 of the 12 NE balls were relatively equally underinflated, 1 NE ball was underinflated but not as much and NONE of the 12 Colts balls were underinflated. I guess the colts were in different weather conditions?

It appears to me that, more likely than not this came out of an environment in NE where the rules are recommendations not requirements. It's a culture of cheating.

I have 2 problems with the press conferences yesterday:

- Bill says he didn't know about it until first thing Monday morning and has his presser on Thursday & claims he has no idea what happened or how it happened. Does anyone really believe that, with all the power and control he has in NE, that if he really wanted to know he couldn't have easily found out what happened? C'mon.

- In one sentence Brady talks about how much time and attention he spends finding the balls that feel the best to him & on the other he says he couldn't tell they were underinflated. LOL. On a team that has a reputation for succeeding because they pay attention to the small details, are we to believe that the person that handles the ball the most, doesn't know the difference between a properly inflated ball and one that is 16% less inflated? Again, C'mon.

- Every ex-QB/player commentator or writer that I've heard practically laughed out loud at Brady's Sqt Schultz imitation.

Anyone want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn.

Len

[velomonkey]

Update

To those of you claiming that the entire deflation was due to the weather, How do you explain that all 24 balls were tested and certified pre-game......the same 24 balls were tested at halftime and 11 of the 12 NE balls were relatively equally underinflated, 1 NE ball was underinflated but not as much and NONE of the 12 Colts balls were underinflated. I guess the colts were in different weather conditions?




I'm trying to fair here, there are so many variables that you nor I know.

The balls, we do know - are initially tested indoors and certified - when they retested them how do you know they weren't tested outdoors. The 12th ball could have been a kicker ball which, unlike throwing balls, most kickers want inflated as much as possible.

For all we know the balls could have been heated, air put in, certified and then played. Technically that is within the rules - going on the edges of bad intent, yes, but technically fine.

Just let it play out - or not, this just isn't the bust most people want it to be.

[Len J]

I'm trying to fair here, there are so many variables that you nor I know.

The balls, we do know - are initially tested indoors and certified - when they retested them how do you know they weren't tested outdoors. The 12th ball could have been a kicker ball which, unlike throwing balls, most kickers want inflated as much as possible.

For all we know the balls could have been heated, air put in, certified and then played. Technically that is within the rules - going on the edges of bad intent, yes, but technically fine.

Just let it play out - or not, this just isn't the bust most people want it to be.

You are reaching. The 24 balls tested were the game balls. Kickers balls are totally separate and have totally different rules and controls.

It doesn't matter if they were retested inside or outside, (although in the rainy conditions it's absurd to think it was done outside), whatever weather conditions or testing conditions impacted the NE balls would have impacted the Indy balls..... It's absurd to think that ALL of the NE balls would have registered so differently form the INDY balls.


The Officials take possession of the balls 2.5 hours & 45 minutes before game time....take them into the officials room, let them acclimate equally, and then test them as they approach game time to ensure that there are no games being played like you suggest. (This is direct from a close friend who is an Umpire in the NFL.)

Len

[velomonkey]

You are reaching. The 24 balls tested were the game balls. Kickers balls are totally separate and have totally different rules and controls.

It doesn't matter if they were retested inside or outside, (although in the rainy conditions it's absurd to think it was done outside), whatever weather conditions or testing conditions impacted the NE balls would have impacted the Indy balls..... It's absurd to think that ALL of the NE balls would have registered so differently form the INDY balls.



Again, variables WE don't know - you can not say with certainty that the indy balls were tested at the same time as the NE balls in the same conditions. Why is it "absurd" to think they were tested or checked outdoors - it's were the game was in play. You can't just assume rain means test indoors.

I have never read that - if you have proof please share - otherwise it's variable you can't speak to. Any testing requires all variables to consistent - if not - you get inconsistent results - science 101.

[merlinmurph]

Update

To those of you claiming that the entire deflation was due to the weather, How do you explain that all 24 balls were tested and certified pre-game......the same 24 balls were tested at halftime and 11 of the 12 NE balls were relatively equally underinflated, 1 NE ball was underinflated but not as much and NONE of the 12 Colts balls were underinflated. I guess the colts were in different weather conditions?

It appears to me that, more likely than not this came out of an environment in NE where the rules are recommendations not requirements. It's a culture of cheating.

I have 2 problems with the press conferences yesterday:

- Bill says he didn't know about it until first thing Monday morning and has his presser on Thursday & claims he has no idea what happened or how it happened. Does anyone really believe that, with all the power and control he has in NE, that if he really wanted to know he couldn't have easily found out what happened? C'mon.

- In one sentence Brady talks about how much time and attention he spends finding the balls that feel the best to him & on the other he says he couldn't tell they were underinflated. LOL. On a team that has a reputation for succeeding because they pay attention to the small details, are we to believe that the person that handles the ball the most, doesn't know the difference between a properly inflated ball and one that is 16% less inflated? Again, C'mon.

- Every ex-QB/player commentator or writer that I've heard practically laughed out loud at Brady's Sqt Schultz imitation.

Anyone want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn.

Len

Well, my question is, was the pressure of each ball actually measured? My guess is that refs look at the balls, pick up a few, give 'em a squeeze, and that's it. Just a hunch. I am seriously doubting that the ref weighs, measures, and checks the pressure on every ball. That would explain the NFL's weak reaction to this whole affair. Nobody ever cared and nobody ever measured, weighed and checked. They don't want to expose the refs. Just a hunch.

Do you really think Bill has any idea where the balls come from and what the whole procedure is supposed to be with the game balls? That task is so out of his realm. That's like asking my CEO ($20+ billion company) for a new PC.

[MattTuck]

So, this reminds me of the Reddit discussion of the Serial Podcast. I've been following that thing as a casual observer (as opposed to an active participant) since I binge listened to the podcast before christmas.

It is actually pretty impressive what the "wisdom of the crowd" can come up with.

[velomonkey]

So, this reminds me of the Reddit discussion of the Serial Podcast. I've been following that thing as a casual observer (as opposed to an active participant) since I binge listened to the podcast before christmas.

It is actually pretty impressive what the "wisdom of the crowd" can come up with.


Yea, except the boston marathon bomber. Worlds off on that one and people, literally, died. But, yes, it's funny - BC physics professor throws forth math that says "no way, they had to let the air out" - BU Physics professor throws out math that shows "easy, here is how you lose 2.0 psi without doing anything."

Really, I think if anything this show how lax the NFL is - most people are like "they supply their own balls?!?!?!"

[merlinmurph]

An excerpt from NBC news (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/super-bowl-xlix/deflate-gate-nfl-ball-boys-perspective-preparing-footballs-n290801)talking to a former NFL team ball boy:

Two hours before kickoff, he would bring the balls to the referees' locker room for inspection.

"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.


Just sayin'

[DukeHorn]

Peter King finally coming out:

This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:
The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.
All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.
All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.
The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

Again, expect a 3rd rounder lost at the very least

[93legendti]

How many points were affected?

Did the balls change the outcome of the game?

[DukeHorn]

Well, my question is, was the pressure of each ball actually measured? My guess is that refs look at the balls, pick up a few, give 'em a squeeze, and that's it. Just a hunch. I am seriously doubting that the ref weighs, measures, and checks the pressure on every ball. That would explain the NFL's weak reaction to this whole affair. Nobody ever cared and nobody ever measured, weighed and checked. They don't want to expose the refs. Just a hunch.

Do you really think Bill has any idea where the balls come from and what the whole procedure is supposed to be with the game balls? That task is so out of his realm. That's like asking my CEO ($20+ billion company) for a new PC.

Bad analogy considering QBs consider the ball condition to be of paramount importance and it was Brady himself who petitioned for the clubs to bring their own balls to games back in 2006 and everyone's awareness of Bill's OCD tendencies. Try again.

[DukeHorn]

How many points were affected?

Did the balls change the outcome of the game?

Ah, you come from the school that cheating is ok so long as the game wasn't affected. Sadly, that's not how enforcing regulations work (in most cases). Again, they're not going to make the Pats forfeit the game but there will be a penalty.

[Tom]

Did I read that right? The ones NE used in the second half were inflated correctly? Isn't that when they outscored Indianapolis 28-0? Wow, imagine what they would have done if they had decent footballs to use all first half.

Of course, nobody could tackle Blount no matter what ball they gave him.

[djg21]

Investigation remains ongoing.

"While the evidence thus far supports the conclusion that footballs that were under-inflated were used by the Patriots in the first half, the footballs were properly inflated for the second half and confirmed at the conclusion of the game to have remained properly inflated."

http://www.csnne.com/blog/patriots-talk/nfl-releases-statement-deflategate-investigation

At what point did the Pats outscore the Colts 28-0?

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that John Harbaugh or the NFL itself was behind this whole thing. When could have a teenage ballboy had an opportunity to deflate 11-12 footballs under the watchful eye of the NFL's skilled officiating staff and God knows how many members of the media and CBS cameras?

[velomonkey]

Peter King finally coming out:

This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:
The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.
All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.
All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.
The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

Again, expect a 3rd rounder lost at the very least

If this is true, and we're gonna need more than this guy's "sources" then yea, the balls were clearly tampered with - I'm hard pressed to think this is true as the NFL would have a ruling right away - you don't need any more evidence - it's all there - prior to game, good - halftime, not good - end of game, good. Busted. So why the wait, then?

I suspect it's cause they don't have a clue.

[MattTuck]

There have to be more cameras at an NFL game than virtually any other place in the world. I demand to see the Zupruder film of the deflation! :help:

"Get the spider cam over on the NE sideline and zoom in on that ball boy deflating those balls"

[Len J]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/league-statement-suggests-a-long-deflategate-investigation/

Also check MMQB for how the refs do this.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/06/peter-king-week-with-officiating-crew-part-three/2/

[Len J]

Well, my question is, was the pressure of each ball actually measured? My guess is that refs look at the balls, pick up a few, give 'em a squeeze, and that's it. Just a hunch. I am seriously doubting that the ref weighs, measures, and checks the pressure on every ball. That would explain the NFL's weak reaction to this whole affair. Nobody ever cared and nobody ever measured, weighed and checked. They don't want to expose the refs. Just a hunch.

Do you really think Bill has any idea where the balls come from and what the whole procedure is supposed to be with the game balls? That task is so out of his realm. That's like asking my CEO ($20+ billion company) for a new PC.

According to the NFL and the referees crew...all balls were individualy gauged.

Len

[Len J]

An excerpt from NBC news (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/super-bowl-xlix/deflate-gate-nfl-ball-boys-perspective-preparing-footballs-n290801)talking to a former NFL team ball boy:



Just sayin'

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/06/peter-king-week-with-officiating-crew-part-three/2/

[Len J]

If this is true, and we're gonna need more than this guy's "sources" then yea, the balls were clearly tampered with - I'm hard pressed to think this is true as the NFL would have a ruling right away - you don't need any more evidence - it's all there - prior to game, good - halftime, not good - end of game, good. Busted. So why the wait, then?

I suspect it's cause they don't have a clue.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/league-statement-suggests-a-long-deflategate-investigation/

[rnhood]

I doubt its because they don't have a clue. Its because they are trying to figure out how to mitigate the severity of cheating so that the league and Super Bowl can....move on. Like the UCI, its better to keep moving since there is big money to be made.

[merlinmurph]

Bad analogy considering QBs consider the ball condition to be of paramount importance and it was Brady himself who petitioned for the clubs to bring their own balls to games back in 2006 and everyone's awareness of Bill's OCD tendencies. Try again.

Beg to differ.
Brady can ask for the balls to have 2 lbs of pressure in them, but they have to be checked first and if they were really checked, they'd never make it into the game.

With all the things that BB has to think about before and during a game, do you really think he gives a flying fark about how balls are delivered to a game? Furthest thing from his mind.

[firerescuefin]

If this is true, and we're gonna need more than this guy's "sources" then yea, the balls were clearly tampered with - I'm hard pressed to think this is true as the NFL would have a ruling right away - you don't need any more evidence - it's all there - prior to game, good - halftime, not good - end of game, good. Busted. So why the wait, then?

I suspect it's cause they don't have a clue.

I'd suspect it's more that they'd rather suspend Brady or Coach B sometime next season, rather than it affect their biggest day of the year. You don't think the NFL's business/Super Bowl partners haven't made their feelings clear regarding this.

[MattTuck]

According to the NFL and the referees crew...all balls were individualy gauged.

Len

You believe what the NFL says? They hired the former director of the FBI to clear their name because they are viewed by the public as such a [pick one: corrupt | inept | exploitative ] organization. I'm sure that Ray Rice video is going to be found in 4 years, unopened, because it got lost in the mail room.

And I haven't seen any official report yet. Which just adds to my argument. The organization has more leaks than a running of Paris-Roubaix and the patriot's balls, combined! This is the organization you're going to trust to arrive at an unbiased finding of the truth?

[MattTuck]

There have to be more cameras at an NFL game than virtually any other place in the world. I demand to see the Zupruder film of the deflation! :help:

"Get the spider cam over on the NE sideline and zoom in on that ball boy deflating those balls"

Ask, and ye shall receive. From the latest NFL statement.

We have retained Renaissance Associates, an investigatory firm with sophisticated forensic expertise to assist in reviewing electronic and video information.

[firerescuefin]

I know I'm gonna get flamed...but the Patriots fans on this thread sound like the Branch Lancivians.

My take...they cheated...many cheat and don't get caught. They did. You want to be fan and tell me "your sorry that I don't believe in miracles"...then I'm guilty as charged.

Added:

They're gonna get a ruler across the top of the hands. If I were a Pats fan, I'd be pulling hard that it takes place next year.

[Tom]

So, my math could be wrong but Brady playing with flaccid balls goes 11-22 for 88 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT. With nice plump firm balls he goes 12-13 for 132 yards and 2 TDs.

These guys are like the kid that doesn't realize you copy your test answers from the smart kid, not the dumb one.

[Len J]

You believe what the NFL says? They hired the former director of the FBI to clear their name because they are viewed by the public as such a [pick one: corrupt | inept | exploitative ] organization. I'm sure that Ray Rice video is going to be found in 4 years, unopened, because it got lost in the mail room.

And I haven't seen any official report yet. Which just adds to my argument. The organization has more leaks than a running of Paris-Roubaix and the patriot's balls, combined! This is the organization you're going to trust to arrive at an unbiased finding of the truth?

I take that statement in the context of the information that exists and it's all generally consistent and compelling....unless you are PATS fanboy.

Len

[ergott]

Prediction. If the Pats are guilty of anything, all the conclusive evidence will magically be wrapped up after the Super Bowl. No way they will finish the investigation beforehand and have to deal with penalizing the team before the game. Sponsors don't want the starts of the game benched on their dime.

As if it really needs saying. ALL PROFESSIONAL SPORTS ARE CORRUPT. The bigger the purse, the more elaborate the ruse.

[MattTuck]

I know I'm gonna get flamed...but the Patriots fans on this thread sound like the Branch Lancivians.

Oh, it's on!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QJgHIRGirG8/U9KiG1hJnCI/AAAAAAAAUlE/yE91ELJUcqY/s1600/Dad+what%27s+a+Losing+season.+I+don%27t+know+son,+ we%27re+Patriots+Fans.jpg


No, seriously Geoff. The whole thing is a circus, and I'm talking professional sports in general, not this particular situation. It is a giant soap opera, entertainment, a distraction from real life.

If this happened to any other team, I'd have the same response. It is a poorly conceived rule to begin with and it has been blown totally out of proportion. The officials (not the teams) have the final say if a ball is placed on the line of scrimmage. If something is off, if they don't like the ball, it is up to them.

This is, in my opinion, the NFL saying "Oh, Indianapolis brought us this opportunity on a silver platter! We get to shift negative publicity away from us from that fiasco with Ray Rice, and move it to the Patriots, who everyone already thinks are criminals, I could only dream about this."

The fact that they've now brought in an investigation firm tells me that they aren't even sure of the facts yet. 40 people interviewed and they have to bring in an outside firm to figure out what happened? c'mon.

If there is evidence of someone letting air out of the balls, I'll be the first to say that a punishment needs to be handed down. I'm not saying they're innocent. I am saying 1) take what the NFL says with a grain of salt until there is some finding of wrong doing, 2) question why the NFL has such a lax rule to begin with, with so much room for tampering and 3) who is responsible for putting a ball into play - is it the team or is it the officials (and by extension, the league)?

Even if the patriots are found to have tampered with the balls, this whole thing is the NFL deflecting blame from their poor oversight. And they're doing quite a good job actually.

And remember, this is a difference of 2 psi. A difference that the officials apparently could not feel, or if they could, judged it not to be of concern until half time.

So, I'm not defending the patriots... they may have taken air out, but let the investigation finish, present the evidence and the findings and then layout a punishment, if necessary. But I also believe this is Roger Goodell's attempt to redeem himself in the wake of the Ray Rice debacle, and to make the league look like it knows what it's doing and that it is some sort of moral pillar of modern society - enforcing some sense of fair play and ethics, rather than the circus that we all know it is.

As far as I'm concerned, we're having a good natured debate about a trivialality of a triviality. You want to know where the real outrage should be directed? It is not the patriots or bill belichick. Go watch League of Denial by Frontline (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/). People lost their lives because of concussion induced brain damage from playing in the NFL and the NFL carried on a decades long campaign to discredit those trying to get the truth out.

[malbecman]

My prediction is that the investigative firm hired by the NFL will find evidence of the tampering and the Patriots will throw some poor ball boy/equipment manager under the bus to save face.

[Lewis Moon]

My prediction is that the investigative firm hired by the NFL will find evidence of the tampering and the Patriots will throw some poor ball boy/equipment manager under the bus to save face.

Bingo...we have a winner.

[velomonkey]

You think back in 99 when Lance tested positive and came forward with the backdated doctor's note some football site did 15 pages of discussion.

Man, football is big and people really hate the patriots.

[djg21]

My prediction is that the investigative firm hired by the NFL will find evidence of the tampering and the Patriots will throw some poor ball boy/equipment manager under the bus to save face.

MattTucks' response is well put and I agree completely. I've thought all along that this is a league issue. I'd only add that at least one of the officials handled the footballs before and after every play, and should have detected the issue instantly if it was as big of a deal as is being made out to be now. Of course, this assumes that the officials initially inspected the balls as rigourously as they are now saying they did.

If the Pats did knowingly cheat, there should be consequences. But my bet is that at the end of the day, the NFL will determine that while the balls were deflated, there is no evidence as to who deflated them or that Belichek or Brady were involved. The Pats will be given a minor penalty based on a theory of strict liability.

I wonder if there is videotape of the initial inspection of the balls by the officials. This could be very telling.

[Len J]

My prediction is that the investigative firm hired by the NFL will find evidence of the tampering and the Patriots will throw some poor ball boy/equipment manager under the bus to save face.

I think that there will be an attempt to throw the Equipment manager under the bus, but, based on:
- The teams history,
- Goddell's position in Bountygate that the "Coach should have known",
- The way Bellicheck handled his apology for spygate (which Goddell contends was not the agreement they made) &
- The backlash from being too lenient on Ray Rice

The league office comes down hard on Bellicheck, Brady and the team........ after the SB.

But who knows.

Len

[firerescuefin]

Man, football is big and people really hate the patriots.

For sure....They've been at or near the top for a long time. As a fan of the Broncos...I hate them...and I am jealous of them. If they weren't so good, I'd shrug my shoulders. So the hatred towards them (by the masses) is a compliment.

What I don't get is the jailhouse lawyers on here defending the Pats. You don't think that the NFL would like to bury this is there was really nothing there. Like I said earlier....they pushed the boundaries (as others have done) and they got caught. They are not the victim here. Apparently, their risk/reward matrix needs to be re-thought.

[djg21]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/colts-player-patriots-actually-used-our-balls-in-second-half/

[Scuzzer]

This is, in my opinion, the NFL saying "Oh, Indianapolis brought us this opportunity on a silver platter! We get to shift negative publicity away from us from that fiasco with Ray Rice, and move it to the Patriots, who everyone already thinks are criminals, I could only dream about this."

Really? I see it the exact opposite way. This doesn't deflect from the buffoonery that was the Ray Rice incident but it expands on it. The leadership of the NFL is repeatedly seen as a joke so now that this one has blown up on them they have to jump through all the silly steps like hiring an independent investigator so that they can shield themselves from further embarrassment.

BTW, I think it was probably standard operating procedure for the NE ballboys to deliver balls to the refs that passed inspection and then take some air out after they were handed back. They were just making the balls exactly the way Brady wanted them. I also think that nobody actually cared much about it but the Colts took the opportunity to tweak Belichick using the rule book, kinda like he does to other teams.

[djg21]

BTW, I think it was probably standard operating procedure for the NE ballboys to deliver balls to the refs that passed inspection and then take some air out after they were handed back. They were just making the balls exactly the way Brady wanted them. I also think that nobody actually cared much about it but the Colts took the opportunity to tweak Belichick using the rule book, kinda like he does to other teams.

We are all speculating on that point, and will have to see what the NFL's "Reasoned Report" says. But I do think it's just as likely that the Pats routinely deflated balls and then gave them to the officials who did a rudimentary inspection without actually checking for adequate pressure with more than a squeeze of the hand. I do think you are on to something when you say that the manipulation of footballs was commonplace before this incident but nobody actually cared much about it until the Colts took the opportunity to tweak Belichek using the Rulebook.

[Climb01742]

An interesting part of all this is:

It appears the NFL was alerted to the strong possibility that the Pats used under-inflated footballs and that the league wanted to try to catch them at it last Sunday. But as part of their sting, the league allowed the first half of the game to be played with the Pats using their suspect footballs. The league 'sprang their trap' at halftime, confiscating the 12 footballs and testing them. They then played the second half with legal footballs.

But here's a rub. To catch the Pats, the league allowed the Pats to cheat and gain an advantage for half of a championship game. Isn't that an odd way to protect 'the integrity of the game'? By intentionally letting someone cheat?

Look, I sadly believe the Pats crossed a line. But didn't the league screw with a championship game to catch them at it, versus proactively preventing it altogether? I'm not absolving the Pats but the league isn't innocent either.

[rugbysecondrow]

We are all speculating on that point, and will have to see what the NFL's "Reasoned Report" says. But I do think it's just as likely that the Pats routinely deflated balls and then gave them to the officials who did a rudimentary inspection without actually checking for adequate pressure with more than a squeeze of the hand. I do think you are on to something when you say that the manipulation of footballs was commonplace before this incident but nobody actually cared much about it until the Colts took the opportunity to tweak Belichek using the Rulebook.

I agree. The assumption is that the Pats deflated balls...I bet they inflated the balls to their desired PSI and the refs never used a gauge. The NFL has gone overboard on this though. ESPN is reporting that a special investigator (Ted Olson) is on the case and over 40 people have been interviewed. We can all sleep well tonight knowing the NFL will get to the bottom of this.

[rugbysecondrow]

Somebody else made this comment, but Aaron Rodgers spoke openly about over inflating the balls as that is his preference. The TV crew discussed it and made a point about how his hands were larger and thus desired an over inflated ball.

It is funny how something openly discussed, commented on, special video editing provided for the interlude, is perfectly fine, but now that the Pats have gone with a softer ball, that is somehow cheating and an unfair advantage.

Not all rules are the same. Is a break in the rule actually cheating? Is it actually an unfair advantage if other teams have adjusted the PSI for their QBs preference?

Is this rule cheating or is it along the same lines as wearing non-league approved footwear?

Full disclosure, I am not a Pats fan, I am a Bears fan. I would rather the Packers be punished than the Pats. Those over inflated balls are like bricks...weapons. Unfair and could hurt defender not ready for such a hard object to be propelled. Rodgers should be arrested for battery.

[Len J]

We are all speculating on that point, and will have to see what the NFL's "Reasoned Report" says. But I do think it's just as likely that the Pats routinely deflated balls and then gave them to the officials who did a rudimentary inspection without actually checking for adequate pressure with more than a squeeze of the hand. I do think you are on to something when you say that the manipulation of footballs was commonplace before this incident but nobody actually cared much about it until the Colts took the opportunity to tweak Belichek using the Rulebook.

One of my best friends is an NFL Umpire.

According to him, His crew does the same procedure every game that Peter King showed on his site.....Guage every single ball. This is both what they are taught and what is expected.

Does every crew do this? I couldn't say, but my take is that these Officials are not only the best of the best, but take their jobs very seriously, so I'd be surprised if most if not all of the crews did the same.

Len

[velomonkey]

For sure....They've been at or near the top for a long time. As a fan of the Broncos...I hate them...and I am jealous of them. If they weren't so good, I'd shrug my shoulders. So the hatred towards them (by the masses) is a compliment.

Apparently, their risk/reward matrix needs to be re-thought.

Agreed. I will add, I grew up in CT. The pats were horrible. The 85 super bowl. OMG - national embarrassment that still lives with me - I get sick hearing super bowl shuffle. My wife and her family are from Chicago and in my view the pats got stomped by Chicago, but then again, 6 super bowls in 14 years makes a lot of people mad and is way, way, way better than 1 win in 85 and look at the mileage Ditka gets. I guess it's all relative.

One note: risk/reward. I guess I'm not spazzing as I coach lacrosse and our best player, after scoring, got called out for a too deep pocket. Refs checked it and sure enough it was too deep. He was our best player - I pulled him aside and was like "I don't get it, you are too good for this. You got no advantage. you only gave them a reason to kick you out." He's a good kid, just doing what he always did, making it easier - think back to Nomar in baseball doing the whole glove thing, foot thing. Yea I know - not even close to a NFL QB, but sometimes people just push boundaries for no reason other than it's what they know. If they (the pats) did this - wicked, wicked dumb - I agree, no advantage and you get everyone a reason to hate you.

[Scuzzer]

Those over inflated balls are like bricks...weapons. Unfair and could hurt defender not ready for such a hard object to be propelled. Rodgers should be arrested for battery.

As a fellow Bears fan I agree our defense is not capable of dealing with hard objects propelled by Rodgers. They aren't really capable of much to be honest. I wonder if they get special handicapable parking spots next to the stadium?

[djg21]

One of my best friends is an NFL Umpire.

According to him, His crew does the same procedure every game that Peter King showed on his site.....Guage every single ball. This is both what they are taught and what is expected.

Does every crew do this? I couldn't say, but my take is that these Officials are not only the best of the best, but take their jobs very seriously, so I'd be surprised if most if not all of the crews did the same.

Len

I'm sure every crew would like to do this until something like winter weather causes delay and threatens to interfere with TV broadcast schedules.

Irrespective of where this investigation goes, there simply is no reason to allow teams to manage their own balls. The officials should have a number of new game balls that are used by both teams. The same balls should be used for offense and for kicking. Of course, this would mean less effective passing and kicking games, and hence, lower scores, which is not what the NFL wants. I really think the NFL is complicit, at least through its inaction when quarterbacks seemingly routinely "prepped" their footballs without consequence.

IMO, this needs an NFL rule change; and not what amounts to a prosecution.

[djg21]

But definitely rated PG-13 if not R.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2015/01/22/deflategate-overkill-video-shows-what-pats-fans-think/

[shovelhd]

My prediction is that the investigative firm hired by the NFL will find evidence of the tampering and the Patriots will throw some poor ball boy/equipment manager under the bus to save face.

If that happens, Belichick will be fired by Kraft, and I'm a Pats fan.

I do not believe the Pats tampered with the balls after the inspection.

[buddybikes]

Don't believe balls were inspected in first place. 2003 bears...

http://larrybrownsports.com/football/could-nfl-be-covering-for-officials-deflategate/253333

[djg21]

If it was an NFL sting, the Colts should be livid with the league, which allowed Brady to have a supposed competitive advantage with which to beat them all in order the set the Pats up.

[wc1934]

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/06/peter-king-week-with-officiating-crew-part-three/2/

Mackie checks the pressure, and Waggoner puts the good ones in the sink, until all are perfect. Then Waggoner marks each by silver Sharpie with an “L” below the NFL shield, Steratore’s branding of each ball so they’re not confused with other balls found on the sidelines.

Marking the balls should be sop.
Does anyone know if any air is lost during the test?

[bironi]

May I suggest a page count bet. How many pages might this thread run, if the NFL waits until after the Super Bowl to make an announcement of their findings? Maybe Vegas will get in on the action. Keep the posts coming boys and girls?

[djg21]

May I suggest a page count bet. How many pages might this thread run, if the NFL waits until after the Super Bowl to make an announcement of their findings? Maybe Vegas will get in on the action. Keep the posts coming boys and girls?

15 by Super Bowl kickoff.

[Louis]

Deny, deny, deny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aJmYmasQhc

[sitzmark]

If it was an NFL sting, the Colts should be livid with the league, which allowed Brady to have a supposed competitive advantage with which to beat them all in order the set the Pats up.

Why? Colts were still in the game and had an interception during "flatball half". Once Pats got their hands on regulation balls the Colts were totally shut out - no more interceptions, no more points, and Brady & Co. Score 28 unanswered points. More than with flatballs.

[djg21]

Why? Colts were still in the game and had an interception during "flatball half". Once Pats got their hands on regulation balls the Colts were totally shut out - no more interceptions, no more points, and Brady & Co. Score 28 unanswered points. More than with flatballs.

But we can only say this in retrospect.

If the soft ball had in fact provided a competitive advantage, perhap the Pats would never have scored in the first half had a regulation ball been used, and the momentum in the game would have favored the Colts throughout. It's a counterfactual, but there were no guarantees when the NFL would have decided to stage the sting that the game would be a Pats blowout.

[MattTuck]

Why? Colts were still in the game and had an interception during "flatball half". Once Pats got their hands on regulation balls the Colts were totally shut out - no more interceptions, no more points, and Brady & Co. Score 28 unanswered points. More than with flatballs.

I think he's saying that the NFL would look pretty foolish if they knowingly allowed non-complying balls to be used in a game; even if they had reasonable suspicion, it has a bit of an entrapment type of feel.

You're going to knowingly let a team cheat, just so you can say, "Gotcha!"?