Ok crit racers, your thoughts on tailgunning?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Putting aside that this strategy makes you a useless team member (unless your job is to sit on wheels until sprint time), what say you on tailgunning for your run-of-the-mill privateer crit racer? Seems like a gamble and a good way to miss out on any breaks/big moves happening mid-race, but a buddy swears it works. And besides, the break NEVER makes it to the finish in a Cat 4 race - none of us are sufficiently organized.

[fogrider]

I think every race is different, for the reasons you mentioned regarding cat 4 racers. the early break may not make it to the end but often the pack gets strung out and sitting the back makes for a long run a the end when the big boys are attacking.

[shovelhd]

Why are you tailgunning?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

To clarify, I've never tried it. My usual approach is to fight to stay in the top 1/3, spend needless amounts of time in the wind, chase down the wrong moves, and then start my sprint too early so that I go from first to 35th within 100m of the line. It came up chatting with a friend who is also an unaffiliated racer and has found (for him, anyway) little benefit to fighting to stay up in the pack. Thus his tailgunning is to conserve energy and use his strength in the last couple laps.

[Look585]

What is your strength? If you are waiting for a field sprint, might as well do it out of the wind. The only time you *need* to be on the front is at the finish line.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Given Cat 4s, Darwinism dictates you try to stay in the top 15. That is, if you want to stay upright.

[Ken Robb]

what is "tailgunning"? A term for McCarthyism?

[shovelhd]

Most lower category racers think they're good sprinters. A few are. The rest are not. It doesn't make sense to put all your eggs in one basket. Work on the fitness. Work on your pack skills. You shouldnt have to fight to stay near the front.

BTW I've seen plenty of Cat4 races won from the break.

[Monthly Payment]

I've done it successfully. Its a particularly good strategy on a wide fast course where separation is unlikely and a crash won't block the whole road.

I think I heard how tailgunning is what led to Speedplays. Richard Byrne used to tailgun crits, gap the field before the turn and dive the turn at a steady pace keeping his momentum. I read an interview with him where he talked about how he needed to make sure he could carve the turns and reduce the likelihood of clipping it.

And for all the "expert advice" about riding in the front half of the field of every crit, read this: http://supersquadra.net/?p=2628

"With the start line race not an important one on this course, I lined up at the back with some old teammates while Phil started at the front thanks to a call-up from his 9th place in Bend’s crit championship. We both surfed wheels for 80 minutes, but with Phil further up in the field due to his start and with me in the last 10 riders. From my point of view, there was no compelling reason to move up. I felt amazing, the field was flying, and there was no way a gap was opening up on this course mid- field that couldn’t be easily closed by just taking the turn without using the brakes. Also, the pack was really bunching up in the turns, so the back was an easy place to just back off 100- 150meters before every turn and just coast into all of the riders braking as they exited the corners."

[shovelhd]

I'm not saying it's not a viable strategy, it's just not viable unless you're a pure sprinter with enough power to hang in the field. I will tailgun a P/1/2 race until the attacks slow down after the midpoint. Then I'll move up and try and grab a prime or a ride on the back of a chase group. These are usually my second race of the day, and I'd have no chance of winning it even if I was fresh. It's just for training.

[fil]

Given Cat 4s, Darwinism dictates you try to stay in the top 15. That is, if you want to stay upright.

this.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

These are the 4s we're talking about. Here in So Cal, that means up to 125 racers sometimes. And the wrecks come in spectacular waves. If you're tail gunning, you're going to get caught behind (or in) these crashes. See any running of the Roger Millikan (aka St. Valentine's Day Massacre) or Dana Point crits.

[gianni]

The best crit strategy is to concentrate on efficiency and stay smooth. There is very little reason to be in the wind and tow people around on the front for no reason in any category. If it's single file, just hold the wheel, chill and wait for a big move. I love the timing with 10 minutes to go, because people will want to conserve and it's the perfect time for a break to go if it's been hard enough. True tail gunning takes some power because there will certainly be gaps to close and it will still take a big effort to get in a position to contest the finale. Fun fun.

[gasman]

what is "tailgunning"? A term for McCarthyism?

It's sitting in the back of the race. When I raced 4's I kept in the top 10-15 or in the back tail gunning to keep out of the inevitable crashes that occur. The few times I raced with the 1/2/3's tail gunning is all I could do. Even then I was usually spit off the back. I don't have a big motor.

[BobbyJones]

Winning is fun every once in while but, c'mon, Cat 4? There's something to be said for being in the wind and riding like a champion as much as you can. (or can stand)

It's amateur racing- so RACE and have fun. If you're just sitting in, why not just go for a fast group ride with your friends?

Let the criticism begin!

[Dead Man]

Winning is fun every once in while but, c'mon, Cat 4? There's something to be said for being in the wind and riding like a champion as much as you can. (or can stand)

It's amateur racing- so RACE and have fun. If you're just sitting in, why not just go for a fast group ride with your friends?

Let the criticism begin!

Go play golf.

[velomonkey]

It's a bike race - the entire object of the race is to get across the line first. Nothing more.

Here is what it's not - hand in your power meter and compare power output.

I swear, some people are just always trying to ice-skate uphill.

[GuyGadois]

Racing is so much more fun at the front. It is much better dictating the race then reacting to it. Plus, who cares about winning. I would rather try to go off the front a number of times and get dropped then sit and half wheel some dude riding a swanky new Trek Madone. :banana:

Gadois

[stronzo]

As long as you're comfortable moving up in the group when the time comes, it's a great way to get results. Kind of boring, in my experience, though. :bike:

[allezdude]

The accordion effect is much worse at the tail end of the pack, though. The more turns, the more matches you'll be burning at the end of the race to stay with the pack. Plus when the inevitable pile-up occurs, it's game over for anyone in the back (everyone behind the crash is gonna get gapped off.)

[shovelhd]

The accordion effect is much worse at the tail end of the pack, though. The more turns, the more matches you'll be burning at the end of the race to stay with the pack. Plus when the inevitable pile-up occurs, it's game over for anyone in the back (everyone behind the crash is gonna get gapped off.)

Proper tailgunning technique takes advantage of the accordion effect by pedaling through the corners while everyone else is coasting. It can be very efficient if you do it right. You get a good view of what's happening up ahead as well. It's also rare that a wreck takes up the whole road. When you see bad stuff happening you have to react quickly and take evasive action. Too many guys get target fixation and head right into it. I've ridden on the sidewalk to avoid a wreck.

[carpediemracing]

Putting aside that this strategy makes you a useless team member (unless your job is to sit on wheels until sprint time), what say you on tailgunning for your run-of-the-mill privateer crit racer? Seems like a gamble and a good way to miss out on any breaks/big moves happening mid-race, but a buddy swears it works. And besides, the break NEVER makes it to the finish in a Cat 4 race - none of us are sufficiently organized.

Whenever someone asks about tail gunning I can't resist responding.

I tailgun 99% of the races I do. Maybe 98%. Often the riders around me can count literally tens of national championships to their credit. Four pop to mind immediately and between them they have maybe 40-50 national jerseys (one has 30 or so, the others racked up a bunch of jerseys but I don't know their actual counts). They're tailgunning as well, although probably not for the same reason as me. They're doing it because they feel it's unimportant to be at the front.

For me it's primarily out of need. To sit near the front requires a solid 200-300w power output, minimum, and it's probably more like 250-350w, with surges pushing the power to 300-600w. To sit at the front, more. If I tailgun I'll get to the finish of a race with an avg wattage of something like 170 or 180w. Once I hit about 200w I really can't sprint, and 210-220w sees me get shelled in 15-20 minutes. Any of those with a powermeter will understand that 170-180w avg, in a 24-27 mph crit, even a flat one, is not that much power. It's a power level associated with going 17 or 18 mph on a flatter road. That's my limitation so I have to make do with it.

One Cat 3, who has won only one or two races, does 485w@5 min intervals. I can do, at best, 290w@5m. When he goes to the front I have problems simply sitting on a wheel. I've been ridden off a wheel plenty of times, after 2-3-4-8 minutes of sustained 30 mph speeds.

(On the other hand I regularly do 1100w for 18-19 seconds in a sprint, with a peak anywhere from 1250-1400w in races, 1550w in training, so I definitely have a sprint, at least compared to my peers.)

Therefore, instead of being "active" and "participating" (and all those other nice words) and then getting shelled 5 or 10 laps into a 20-40 lap race, I choose to be active and participate and all that in the last 1-5 laps of a race. It means gambling a lot to get to those last 5 laps.

(In terms of safety I have done this since I started racing in 1983. I broke bones once in a race, in 2009, with 400-500m to go, when someone intentionally swerved across the road and swept away my front wheel. Most of my race crashes have happened inside the last 5 laps and I was usually sitting 3rd-15th wheel when I hit the deck, typically due to someone coming up the inside super fast, losing it, and crashing through the front of the field. So, for me at least, being near the front is typically more dangerous than not. In terms of race delay, yes, sitting at the back can get you delayed. However it's better than crashing.)

Is it more fun to be near the front? Of course, while I'm there. Do I often get into the top 1/3 (typically on a super technical course) and then get shelled within a few minutes? Yes, that's also unfortunately accurate. I got DNFs in my last three races in 2014, mainly due to the technical nature of the course. I moved to the front, blew up, and went off the back.

I think by now most of the regulars know my clips, but there's a perfect "examples of good and bad" of a tail gunning race (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O7hgXTzodA) - the 2011 Cat 2 Tour of Somerville (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2011/05/2011-somerville-cat-2s.html). I tail gunned a bit aggressively, I was saving everything for the last lap, and I got caught behind a somewhat ridiculous crash. There were at least two more crashes that lap, maybe three, and 1 (or 2) were in the sprint, so it was a really crazy last lap. My avg power something like 175w for the race and we did 27.5 mph, the fastest race I've done in a while.

My avg wattage went up considerably in the last half lap when I was alone - I did 250 or 280w or something completely unsustainable, mainly because I knew the Missus, waiting near the start/finish, would be worried that I crashed if it took me too long to show up.

In 2010, when I did the Cat 3 race at Somerville (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2010/05/racing-2010-tour-of-somerville.html), someone told me just before the start that "they're going to be crashing like fools". I spent all my energy staying near the front, avg 201w going 1 mph slower on the same course, and even though I was significantly more fit I was so blown couldn't even stand when the sprint started.

As far as "the front is safer", the worst crash in the 2010 Cat 3 Somerville race happened just as the sprint started. A guy a couple behind me (while I was sitting 2nd wheel) swerved across the road to start his sprint. He took out many of the guys sitting just behind him.

I knew maybe 3 or 4 guys at the 2010 Cat 3 race. All ended up in the hospital, all were hanging out 10th-30th in a 120+ rider field. Supposedly a safe area but safety relies on the riders in the area. I find that some of the riders up front are those that are strong but are scared (like me) or can't handle their bikes (I hope I can handle a bike reasonably well), and a strong rider that doesn't ride well in a field is not a good thing.

For a more sane race there was the 2010 Nutmeg State Games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzT0FGn9Co4). I was a Cat 3, it was raining, and I had particularly bad tires that were completely sketchy in the wet. To be fair/safe to the other riders, meaning I didn't want to take anyone out, I sat at the back and decided to move up with half a lap to go. I almost pulled it off but I lacked the confidence to lead out the sprint.

On the same course, in 2014, in the M45 race (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkLKxv7fqhs), I was significantly less fit. I'd ridden about an hour a week for the prior 4 weeks. My FTP was realistically about 200w so my threshold for being able to sprint was probably 180w. I managed to average 167w, even with some efforts (one effort mirrored my finishing effort), and I had a good sprint left, enough to win the field sprint (behind a 4 rider break and a 2 rider chase). It was worth sprinting for - the bronze medal for CT would be awarded to the first CT rider across the line. Because I didn't know who was in CT and who was not, I felt it would be optimal if I won the field sprint.

Tactics are fascinating because a racer can approach a given situation in many different ways. Tailgunning is one of many ways of approaching a section of a race, and it's a valid tactic when applied appropriately.

[BSUdude]

To everyone in this thread that says they're tailgunners or their buddy is a tailgunner--how many races have you won?

[Gummee]

These are the 4s we're talking about. Here in So Cal, that means up to 125 racers sometimes. And the wrecks come in spectacular waves. If you're tail gunning, you're going to get caught behind (or in) these crashes.
Hence the 'stay at the front, but not ON the front' advice.

If you want a good workout, the back's the place to be. :nod Lots of accelerations as the pack accordions into and out of corners. (or I just don't tailgun right!)

M

[shovelhd]

To everyone in this thread that says they're tailgunners or their buddy is a tailgunner--how many races have you won?

Dozens, but I don't tailgun to win as I have said before.

CDR is a classic pure sprinter. I've towed him around a few times in races. I have to be careful not to drop him.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

So what I'm hearing is that for a straight up sprinter (and I mean a real one, not the guy who claims he can rock a sprint at 780W), tailgunning may be a valid strategy to keep the legs fresh on open, nontechnical courses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shovelhd]

So what I'm hearing is that for a straight up sprinter (and I mean a real one, not the guy who claims he can rock a sprint at 780W), tailgunning may be a valid strategy to keep the legs fresh on open, nontechnical courses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup. And if you want a clinic on how to do it right, watch CDR's videos.

[Lewis Moon]

I hate crits.
I hates 'em, I do. Would sooner jab a meat thermometer into my brain through my ear.

If you're not off the front, you gotta stay up in the scrum where you're hooking bars, diving for slots, body checking and trying not to become pavement pizza. If you're on the back it's like being pulled around by an accordion. 500 watts, on the brakes, 500 watts, on the brakes, 500 watts.....

God I hate crits.

[Chris]

I was going to use Somerville as the prime example, but Carpediem did it already so no point in belaboring the point, but there are some races that if you are not tailgunnig, you are not racing really effectively. It's a strategy. It's not one for everyone or for every course. Here is a link (http://www.manualforspeed.com/american-crit/mcnellies-group-blue-dome-criterium/) to a post about my teammate at Tulsa Tough on Manual for Speed. Steven has won plenty. A couple of national championships even. He talks about tailgunning in the post.

[BSUdude]

Dozens, but I don't tailgun to win as I have said before.

CDR is a classic pure sprinter. I've towed him around a few times in races. I have to be careful not to drop him.

So clearly then this tactic may be viable in some instances, but how do you deal with shelled riders? If you're on the back and the pace is high, people are going to be popped off...so if you're tailgunning someone who gets popped, what then?

[LesMiner]

what is "tailgunning"? A term for McCarthyism?

Oh yeah, Congressman Joe McCarthy a.k.a. "tail gunner Joe". I don't think he ever rode crit. A humorous comment nonetheless. :rolleyes:

[velomonkey]

For a more sane race there was the 2010 Nutmeg State Games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzT0FGn9Co4). I was a Cat 3, it was raining, and I had particularly bad tires that were completely sketchy in the wet.

And that is my old team mate Dwayne getting the win. I was the IIs so I wasn't there, but Dwayne tail gunned it the entire time and got the jersey.

[FlashUNC]

I've seen it work precisely once. And I will admit, when it did it was a thing of beauty.

Was at one of the college circuit crits, and a teammate was hanging on the back of the A race the entire time. Two laps to go he times a perfect jump through the corner on the front straight down to the finish line, passes the entire race field on the front stretch, and disappears around the corner.

Everyone else stared at each other, not wanting to chase down someone with two to go and burn their matches for the inevitable sprint. They did get organized but it was too late, he won at the line by a few bike lengths.

Nowhere near the strongest guy in the bunch, but as others have mentioned, ain't always who is the strongest.

Is it viable week-in/week-out? I don't think so. The stars aligned for that one to work.

I will say, when it does, its thrilling as a spectator to watch.

[batman1425]

When executed properly, it can be a really great tactic. The risk obviously is you are more susceptible to crashes and can't hop into breaks. That said 95% of breaks at the cat 4 level won't stick and aren't worth the effort. If you hang at the back you need to have the fitness to deal with the slinky effect and be able to get around dropped riders quickly. Can be done, but you have to be on your toes and be careful not to burn too many matches.

IMO, the ticket to cat4 success when riding alone is to stay out of trouble, do as little work as possible - let the bigger teams and overzealous He-Man guys do that, and get ready to dish out pain in the last K. Sit anywhere you want in the group accomplish that.

[Chris]

So clearly then this tactic may be viable in some instances, but how do you deal with shelled riders? If you're on the back and the pace is high, people are going to be popped off...so if you're tailgunning someone who gets popped, what then?

Corners

[Dr Luxurious]

I wish I could do it.
There are some guys who can move through a field like it isn't there; riding through holes that don't exist. I really wish I had that skill.
Robbie Ventura was (is) great at it. We'd never see him during a race - until the prime bell rang or bell lap. Then somehow he'd appear 5 from the front going into the last corner and carrying a ton of speed. He'd collect his $ and disappear again. Gaggioli could do it, too - hell, he'd announce it. We'd be sitting at the back cracking jokes and he'd say "I going to spreent now. I going to ween.". And he'd do it while laughing like Beavis.

[shovelhd]

So clearly then this tactic may be viable in some instances, but how do you deal with shelled riders? If you're on the back and the pace is high, people are going to be popped off...so if you're tailgunning someone who gets popped, what then?

If you're just riding around back there with your nose in your power meter, you're doing it wrong. You have to be hyper aware in crits. You have to anticipate the gap opening by watching the body language of the riders in front of you and reacting quickly to conserve energy. You will have to jump to close the gap. Time it right and you'll use minimal energy and the rest will get dropped. You should always be looking 3-4 wheels ahead of you and anticipating.

[shovelhd]

I wish I could do it.
There are some guys who can move through a field like it isn't there; riding through holes that don't exist. I really wish I had that skill.
Robbie Ventura was (is) great at it. We'd never see him during a race - until the prime bell rang or bell lap. Then somehow he'd appear 5 from the front going into the last corner and carrying a ton of speed. He'd collect his $ and disappear again. Gaggioli could do it, too - hell, he'd announce it. We'd be sitting at the back cracking jokes and he'd say "I going to spreent now. I going to ween.". And he'd do it while laughing like Beavis.

Adam Myerson.

[Ti Designs]

Putting aside that this strategy makes you a useless team member (unless your job is to sit on wheels until sprint time), what say you on tailgunning for your run-of-the-mill privateer crit racer? Seems like a gamble and a good way to miss out on any breaks/big moves happening mid-race, but a buddy swears it works. And besides, the break NEVER makes it to the finish in a Cat 4 race - none of us are sufficiently organized.

In-season, why don't you show up on the hammer rides with the Harvard team? You'll learn pretty quickly that tactics change based on who's there and where you are. There are a number of town line sprints, a couple of hills and one section known as the turn & burn section which is just plain fast.

I don't teach single tactic racing, even to my pure sprinters or pure climbers. It's always a game of pushing your strengths and covering your weaknesses. Any race is a test of how well you bring the race to your own strengths - tailgunning is no different. It's also a question of how well the other riders know your tactics and what they do about it. What I love about training rides like this over races is how much learning can be done in one ride. In a race you position yourself for the finish and see what happens. On a training ride there are a half dozen sprints and at least that in hammer sessions just to close a gap or see who's sleeping on the back.

[carpediemracing]

So clearly then this tactic may be viable in some instances, but how do you deal with shelled riders? If you're on the back and the pace is high, people are going to be popped off...so if you're tailgunning someone who gets popped, what then?

As shovel said.

"Tailgunning" doesn't mean staying in last spot. For me it's really staying in the sweet spot at the back that offers the most draft while giving me plenty of space to see what's happening up front.

Typically as a rider starts to come off the back I'll either go around him or, if I'm really in trouble, I'll try to figure out the best possible way to stay on the field. For example if the rider is coming off in a massive headwind I may not jump around immediately, especially if I'm cracking also. I'll wait until the wind shifts enough to allow me to bridge using a lower "Delta Power" (i.e. I'm not working much harder than the field). In a headwind the "Delta Power" (a term I use) is huge, so the guys at the front may be putting down 400-500w while those just 5-10 wheels behind are doing 120-150w.

There's a clip where I do that - I'm struggling to stay on wheels, massive headwind section, and I actually allow a gap to open while I recover a touch as well as wait for the wind to change just a bit. Then I made the effort to get on.

The other thing is that if you're not quite alone then other riders will want to do the same thing, i.e. not get shelled. I've often caught one of the last wheels to go bridge a gap, and usually I'm at the limit when I go.

In this clip, at 5:15, I make a huge effort to close down a gap to a 2 man break. The rider I'm trying help, Aaron, attacks just before we catch them, and the now 3 man break took off, eventually winning the race (Aaron actually won). However, after my pull, at about 7:40, I barely get on the back of the field. A lap later, at about 7:55, I'm still absolutely redlined. I can't even stay with a minutely faster acceleration so I decide to gamble and ease. I get on another wheel, recover just enough, then go before the gap gets too big.

IN this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGrceE6nZn8), starting at about 8:00, I'm a bit frazzled. Two groups go away, most of the field, and I was starting to lose hope. Then a teammate in a non-team kit bridged, all the way to the front, dropping me off in solid position. Moves like this save my races. Sometimes, rarely, I have to do it, but often I have a friend help me out.

Speaking of Shovel this is one race (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRJrWJ09Mwc) where it worked out well. I cover for 3 of my 4 teammates. The 3 leaders are super strong. The one with me, SOC, is stronger than me as well, and we sprint about the same. The 3 get away, the field settles down, and somehow I didn't get shelled in the first 10 minutes. As the race wound down shovel knew I'd be looking to have fun in the field sprint. He found me and we had fun handling the final bit of the race.

In the above clip there are times where I had to sacrifice position to recover just a touch, and one time where I was maybe 1-2 riders away from getting shelled.

My teammate SOC's wife took a finish line clip here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opy_kecxZAI) of the same race.

Keep in mind that the camera makes things look further than not. When I'm fighting for shovel's wheel my tire is up near his derailleur.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Those rides (and others like them) always looked very good. Sadly, they never seem to work for two reasons: (1) they start too late, and (2) I live in the 'burbs these days. But I can (and should) do a better job hitting training races like Wells Ave. Good opportunities to learn how to move around a pack and try out tactics.

In-season, why don't you show up on the hammer rides with the Harvard team? You'll learn pretty quickly that tactics change based on who's there and where you are. There are a number of town line sprints, a couple of hills and one section known as the turn & burn section which is just plain fast.

I don't teach single tactic racing, even to my pure sprinters or pure climbers. It's always a game of pushing your strengths and covering your weaknesses. Any race is a test of how well you bring the race to your own strengths - tailgunning is no different. It's also a question of how well the other riders know your tactics and what they do about it. What I love about training rides like this over races is how much learning can be done in one ride. In a race you position yourself for the finish and see what happens. On a training ride there are a half dozen sprints and at least that in hammer sessions just to close a gap or see who's sleeping on the back.

[Ti Designs]

Those rides (and others like them) always looked very good. Sadly, they never seem to work for two reasons: (1) they start too late, and (2) I live in the 'burbs these days. But I can (and should) do a better job hitting training races like Wells Ave. Good opportunities to learn how to move around a pack and try out tactics.

The hammer ride starts at 6:00am, heads out into Concord, the turn around point is in Westford. Early and in the 'burbs - what more could you ask? Seriously, training with the fast guys is the way to learn, going to Wells Ave lets you practice your tactics once in a week - that's not enough...

[carpediemracing]

I hate crits.
I hates 'em, I do. Would sooner jab a meat thermometer into my brain through my ear.

If you're not off the front, you gotta stay up in the scrum where you're hooking bars, diving for slots, body checking and trying not to become pavement pizza. If you're on the back it's like being pulled around by an accordion. 500 watts, on the brakes, 500 watts, on the brakes, 500 watts.....

God I hate crits.

I wish I could ride with you.

I virtually never hook bars, maybe 1997 or 1996 was the last time, and it was only when someone veered hard into me during a sprint. I never bump intentionally, and almost never get bumped (2006 Prospect I got leaned on pretty hard twice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lgRKWEdG18)). Any contact in a Cat 3-5 race or in most M40 or older races are typically avoidable. Contact indicates the rider initiating the contact has made a huge tactical error and is trying to fix it through physical means, not tactical. It's sort of like being in rush hour traffic and just ramming the cars ahead of you to get moving. It's a solution but it's not ideal.

I note in the shovel clip above that it's easy to take a wheel. It's almost always better to give up the wheel and take it again later, even with a lap to go. I'll give up wheels pretty close to the finish, knowing that if I give up the wheel but gain shelter in exchange that the rider now on the wheel will use up a good part of his sprint sitting in the wind. I can take a wheel without any contact, I just use the other rider's Sphere against him. Some riders are more difficult and in those situations I look for a different place to take a wheel because, frankly, it's almost never worth it to battle over that, better to look elsewhere.

All good racers have a smaller Sphere, what I call the personal space around the bars and front tire/wheel. My Sphere is maybe 1" to the sides of the bar, maybe 1-3" to the sides of the front tire. With some basic, slow bike drills a rider can reduce their Sphere to maybe 3-5" to the side and similar to the front. One of my little self tests was to put my front tire between the rear derailleur cable housing and the spokes of the rider in front of me. It gives me maybe an inch either side and about an inch or two forward. I happen to only do this with riders I don't know, although I told most of them that I was "riding closely".

A smaller Sphere really opens up the possibilities of drafting much more effectively. It also allows you to inherit spots simply because a rider with a larger Sphere gives up enough room for you to slot in. For example if there's a newer rider with a 3-4 foot Sphere, you can easily slide into the spot he leaves in front of his wheel all the time.

The other thing is I'm always, always, always thinking about the tactics of the race. This means wind direction, wind strength, future versions of both (like in the shovel clip I was extremely aware of any crosswinds since those are the most deadly). I'm thinking of who is going, who has gone, and their chances. This makes a race super intense. If I get distracted in a race it's a major thing for me.

Also I understand my limitations so I won't go chasing a National level rider. I know I'd have to increase my FTP almost 100% to be on par with some of my teammates, my sprint by 40%. And they're smart and they know how to race in a field. Therefore I have no advantages over them. I understand that and I accept it.

Once you have a reasonable Sphere, once you understand Wind Management (i.e. figuring out where you need to be to draft), once you accept where you stand relative to the others, it totally changes how you approach crits.

For me, as a risk averse person, as a not-really-an-athlete (cycling's the only thing I can do reasonably well), crits offer the best sport for someone that is at best a Cat 4 or 5 in terms of aerobics but enjoys the tactical permutations where you layer wind, physical strength/characteristics/reserves, and quick decision making.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

The hammer ride starts at 6:00am, heads out into Concord, the turn around point is in Westford. Early and in the 'burbs - what more could you ask? Seriously, training with the fast guys is the way to learn, going to Wells Ave lets you practice your tactics once in a week - that's not enough...

Wrong 'burbs (I'm north, in Andover), and my midweek rides finish by 6:45.

I agree with what you say, though.

[Andrevich4]

So synopsis of this is tail gunning works as a strategy if/when:
1. Open, non-technical course
2. You stay aware of the pack and avoid target fixation when crashes happen
3. You are a good enough bike handler to use the corners to move up in the field when it's time
4. And you gauge your move up based on your individual strengths

Really good and interesting discussion here. Where else are tactics discussed on pace line?

[Andrevich4]

Really good advice and use of group rides.

What's your team looking like this year?

In-season, why don't you show up on the hammer rides with the Harvard team? You'll learn pretty quickly that tactics change based on who's there and where you are. There are a number of town line sprints, a couple of hills and one section known as the turn & burn section which is just plain fast.

I don't teach single tactic racing, even to my pure sprinters or pure climbers. It's always a game of pushing your strengths and covering your weaknesses. Any race is a test of how well you bring the race to your own strengths - tailgunning is no different. It's also a question of how well the other riders know your tactics and what they do about it. What I love about training rides like this over races is how much learning can be done in one ride. In a race you position yourself for the finish and see what happens. On a training ride there are a half dozen sprints and at least that in hammer sessions just to close a gap or see who's sleeping on the back.

[shovelhd]

I would say that the more technical the course is, the better you have to be at tailgunning to be effective, but the more opportunity to save energy versus those that aren't.

[fatallightning]

You can't really generalize, depends on the race, course, others racers etc. On techier crits, the compression and elasticness at the ass end can be ridiculous. I ride at the back of the 4/5 field after racing the 1/2/3 practice crit and the lack of handling back there can be pretty awful. Lots of dead stops to full sprints, where at the front you can just arc it. In faster open crits, depends on the course and field size. I'll tailgun smaller field size (less then 50) once in a blue moon, because even at the back you can still keep an eye on who's dangling off the front. In big races, guys are getting spit out the back all the time, and those aren't fun gaps to close.

[Tandem Rider]

I'd have to say it's a viable tactic that can occasionally work, but your pack skills better be pretty sharp for it to be successful.

P12 races I sometimes, but rarely, do it, but I also don't have to worry as much about the last group of guys getting dropped all at once. Masters, never, Cat 1-5 all race together, best to be in the front echelon. I also don't do as well as some with high watt short duration efforts (like quickly going across a gap), it sounds like I'm the opposite of CDR, it's easier for me to create the gap than to go across it. If I just roll across a gap, then some guys always seem to come with me.

[11.4]

Interesting exchange.

The first question is ... why are Cat 4's worrying about this? Your goal in life is simply to collect upgrade points and there's not a need actually to score a win. Sprinting isn't quite as helpful unless you are already a very good bike handler; getting up into position and being able to race plenty of events is more important. It's all about points.

You are competing against perhaps fifteen or twenty riders who seriously want to win and you all are competing for the same top podium position. And there are a lot of very strong riders who aren't really smart enough not to fight for the front all the way through. Instead, I'd suggest you think about what accomplishes the goal of getting points and getting into Cat 3. And getting points means you place enough and perhaps even are lucky and win a few.

So if you really want to score points against a bunch of pretty fast but dangerous riders, tailgunning isn't really the precise method but you want to do something close. Don't be the last rider in the pack but don't try to fight for position in that fast, unruly clump of riders taking each turn far too fast and not able to manage themselves. Yes, they will crash at times in front of you. If you are awake, you can avoid them. The tail of a crit isn't a big bulge of riders but almost a single-file line, so you can move up several riders at any turn if you want to because you (and not the guys near the front) have loads of room to do so. Even on skinny Belgian kermesse courses.

Hang at the back of the crowd, where the pack starts to become a single-file. There, you can intentionally let a 2-5 length bike gap develop in front of you going into the turn, but you can fly through without braking while everyone else is on the levers. The line behind you is where the distance really adds up, and that's what you don't want to be behind because there is some real catching up to do. But at the back of the crowd, you get pulled along, you can give yourself enough room to take the turns at speed without even working, and you don't have a pack filling every gap or hole you might want to make. If you are really the strongest in the pack, go to the front and work it. If you aren't, you just kill yourself there.

So when the end comes, you have a front pack that starts stretching out into a thinner line as the speed goes up. They have all worked harder than you. Do exactly the same thing, lap after lap -- open a little gap and then shoot through with the confidence of picking your line and moving back into the draft of that big pack. But each corner, pass anyone that's slowing down or anyone who's out of position. You're just moving to the front. You will probably still have plenty of room to maneuver, since the pack is in a longer line. Just watch a finish at the Tour de France and if you have a helicopter shot, you can see how it's basically a long line that's 1-3 riders wide. Loads of room for you to move up.

If it should turn into a big bunch sprint at the end, that may not be where you score points as a 4. You have to have the best cornering skills in the pack to come out faster from the last corner unless you have a very long finishing straight. But just move wheel to wheel. That's the rule for the bunch finish -- just move wheel to wheel. If you have the sprint, blow through, but if you don't at least you should be where you can try to collect a point or two, and then you've also developed more bike handling and more speed to be in a better position at the end. Remember, you and your competitors think y'all are great sprinters. Most people aren't, including probably you. Honesty is important here and if you do have the skills to wheel suck and jump up in corners, then hell, that's a good racing skill too.

[Ti Designs]

We should have a paceline forum race, I would love to see how all this advice plays out...

[shovelhd]

I'm in. Maybe we should all just show up at Wells Ave and have at it.

[carpediemracing]

New Britain, Mar 29 and Apr 12.
Maybe two more dates at a nearby location Mar 15, 22.

Bethel July 4th, to be confirmed.

I'll be racing in all of them, probably in the 3s, although technically I'm eligible to do the M45+. All my secrets are out on the clips for everyone to learn/know so everyone has that on me, and everyone in the area knows how I race so that's another strike against me. I also have very few teammates to help me, although I do count on some friendly allies.

I'll realistically do the M45 at Nutmeg State Games, Bob Beals, New Britain Crit.

Cat 3 at the Kermis in May, maybe the 3/4 at Chris Hinds in April (or the M40+, not sure), New Britain Crit (as well as M45).

Although I'll be working at White Plains I probably won't race, although I'd like to do the 3s.

*edit and all of the CCAP Tuesday Night Races at Rentschler Field, although I doubt I can hang with the A race now.

[carpediemracing]

Interesting exchange.

The first question is ... why are Cat 4's worrying about this? Your goal in life is simply to collect upgrade points and there's not a need actually to score a win.

Although some Cat 4s are in to upgrade, I think that competition is not just about upgrading or whatever. For some riders Cat 4 is a comfortable place to be, just like for me Cat 3 is comfortable, and others are Cat 2s forever.

There was an interesting article on what makes car racing interesting to the drivers and spectators. It's not necessarily attaining the win, it's more the slicing and dicing that you do to get wherever. I saw the article on Jalopnik but I can't find it quickly. It had to do with the F1 rules and the debate on various regulation things, and how Mercedes won virtually all the races.

The author said that one of the things that makes racing interesting is a more level playing field, pointing out that it's tons of fun racing spec/equal Miatas and such. It's why racing on, say, 16" kids bikes or 20" geared bikes, as adults, is so much fun (we raced them for fun around the strip mall back in the day, 24 stores long on a slope). The equipment is similar, the fluency between riders similar, and it's just a whole lot of fun.

For me, basically a life long 3, it's not about just winning because if it was I'd have quit the sport 30 years ago. It's about doing the best I can with what I have at the time. Sometimes I plan ahead, when I can afford to, and I have longer term goals. Other times, like when we were trying to start a family, I purposely set zero goals, didn't train much, and raced each race just doing whatever I could (and that year was the only one I was a 2).

I've spent a ton of time at the front of a race to help a teammate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIZRJPs_kDI). I've done massive work for teammates and shelled myself because of it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nxZUJbHGjU) (and there are a bunch of races where I didn't even bother making clips). It's part of the enjoyment of racing.

Bike racing, at least with friends/teammates, is like playing a musical instrument in a band or orchestra. There's a certain satisfaction in being able to play solo. It's absolutely a different thing to be able to play well with your band/orchestra, it's just incredible, it's completely different than playing solo. Bike racing is like that - it's somewhat rewarding when racing solo but truly inspiring when racing as part of a team, official or not.

[soulspinner]

I hate crits.
I hates 'em, I do. Would sooner jab a meat thermometer into my brain through my ear.

If you're not off the front, you gotta stay up in the scrum where you're hooking bars, diving for slots, body checking and trying not to become pavement pizza. If you're on the back it's like being pulled around by an accordion. 500 watts, on the brakes, 500 watts, on the brakes, 500 watts.....

God I hate crits.

That on off acceleration always knackered the poo outta me.......

[thegunner]

Bethel July 4th, to be confirmed.

if this happens, can we hold a private paceline crit after the fact? :banana:

[carpediemracing]

That on off acceleration always knackered the poo outta me.......

Heh. Tailgunning can reduce it to near nothing, and on the right course it might buy you 30-40 seconds of coasting every 2 minutes.

[carpediemracing]

if this happens, can we hold a private paceline crit after the fact? :banana:

Ha. I get shelled immediately in a small group on that course. I need 40 riders to have a chance, 60-80 is great, 120 and it's fantastic. Because tailgunning.

However if it goes off as planned I want to do a BBQ and such, make it an alternate July 4th thing so people don't feel obligated to go rushing home etc.

[Hindmost]

Some of the comments on gaining experience got me thinking, recalling some club races from quite a ways back.

These club races used to run on a flat mile-and-a-half or two mile course. The main race ran maybe 15 laps and was handicapped--broken into A and B groups, B's getting a head start. But before the main race we would run 1 or 2 one-lappers, and a five-lapper with all riders together.

I used to hate the early, short races. They were intense, chaotic, with lots of still-fresh riders going for the finish. It wasn't until much later that I realized that this was the whole point: to give all of us experience of how to negotiate/survive a race finish.

[malcolm]

Haven't raced a crit in over 20 years but watching cardediem's vids and seeing the exchanges between him and shovel make me remember why I did it in the first place. Kudos guys that's what racing is all about.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I'm in. Maybe we should all just show up at Wells Ave and have at it.

I can see it now. shovelhd driving the front, Ed telling everyone their pedal stroke is crap, and CDR tailgunning and yelling "I'll get all of you in the sprint!" :p

[soulspinner]

I can see it now. shovelhd driving the front, Ed telling everyone their pedal stroke is crap, and CDR tailgunning and yelling "I'll get all of you in the sprint!" :p

:p

[numbskull]

Haven't raced a crit in over 20 years but watching cardediem's vids and seeing the exchanges between him and shovel make me remember why I did it in the first place..

I agree. Very interesting and fun thread. CDR's combination of enthusiasm and maturity is particularly refreshing.

[nm87710]

The first question is ... why are Cat 4's worrying about this? Your goal in life is simply to collect upgrade points and there's not a need actually to score a win. Sprinting isn't quite as helpful unless you are already a very good bike handler; getting up into position and being able to race plenty of events is more important. It's all about points.

People don't race to upgrade much anymore. 20-30-40 years ago it was every racers goal to upgrade. It's what you worked for day in and day out. Eventually if you didn't keep moving up you moved out. Nowadays many are happy to be a participant rather than a player so we have PermaFours, Threes, etc.

[thegunner]

Ha. I get shelled immediately in a small group on that course. I need 40 riders to have a chance, 60-80 is great, 120 and it's fantastic. Because tailgunning.

However if it goes off as planned I want to do a BBQ and such, make it an alternate July 4th thing so people don't feel obligated to go rushing home etc.

that's what my team did this year after lime rock, picked up a STUPID amount of local barbecue and just felt fat for the next couple of hours.

[bcroslin]

People don't race to upgrade much anymore. 20-30-40 years ago it was every racers goal to upgrade. It's what you worked for day in and day out. Eventually if you didn't keep moving up you moved out. Nowadays many are happy to be a participant rather than a player so we have PermaFours, Threes, etc.

Hate to say it but when it comes to road racing this describes me perfectly. I like to race but I don't have much desire to upgrade to a 3 from my current 4(ever). I remember when I raced as a 5 and everyone told me to hurry and cat up because 4's would be safer. So I race my butt off and after 5 or 6 races with a few good showings I'm able to cat up. The first race I toe the line as a 4 and it turns out everyone else catted up as well. So much for safer. Would I like to be a 3? I guess because I'm told it's safer but I occasionally do training crits and I've seen 1's and 2's do as much dumb stuff as the 4's and 5's. I know crits can be sketchy affairs but down here in FL they tend to look like a gladiator sport.

Anyway, this has been a great thread full of excellent info. CPR's videos are also fun to watch. My personal experience with tail gunning is the same as what a few others have said. I've never tried it - I'm the dumb gorilla who sits at the front and chases stuff down and then I go to the back for the last lap to stay upright. The one person I know who was really good at tail gunning was a U23 who was able to sit near the back until 3 laps to go and then he would skillfully move himself up until the bell lap and almost always end up top 5. He went on to race for a collegiate team and got the boot because he was a terrible team mate.

[bigbill]

The only time it ever worked for me was when I'd go to the front long enough to make it through the "burn out" section when all the weaker riders were shed off the back and pulled. Then settle in the back half and stay out of the wind until the last laps and then move back up. I absolutely hated crits but sometimes that's all there was. I mostly led teammates out or went to the front in the final laps to string it out for a teammate to take a flyer for the win.

[Ti Designs]

that's what my team did this year after lime rock, picked up a STUPID amount of local barbecue and just felt fat for the next couple of hours.

Anyone remember the Putney road race? There was always this giant barbecue going on in a field after the first climb. Most of the time I was racing to win, but there was that one year I got shelled on the first climb and decided that the chicken was probably better than 50th place...

[Dead Man]

Upgrading is about keeping it challenging, competitive, and fair. If you're coming in mid pack, that's one thing. Stick around, settle in. I'd you're winning, and you're not in cat 1, you should be upgrading.

[Chris]

The most dangerous group is the category right below whomever you are talking to. I ran a pro team for one season. We were at some race and a guy was complaining about all of the sketchy stuff the 1's were pulling in the race. The next year we lost our major sponsor so most of those guys were back to the 1's. Same guy, different race, bitching about the 2's...

[carpediemracing]

I agree. Very interesting and fun thread. CDR's combination of enthusiasm and maturity is particularly refreshing.

Just the other day I was telling the wife that I don't feel 47. I feel 30, maybe 35. That's either good or bad, depending on how one looks at it.

[shovelhd]

The most dangerous group is the category right below whomever you are talking to. I ran a pro team for one season. We were at some race and a guy was complaining about all of the sketchy stuff the 1's were pulling in the race. The next year we lost our major sponsor so most of those guys were back to the 1's. Same guy, different race, bitching about the 2's...

Some guys will bitch about anything.

[11.4]

The most dangerous group is the category right below whomever you are talking to. I ran a pro team for one season. We were at some race and a guy was complaining about all of the sketchy stuff the 1's were pulling in the race. The next year we lost our major sponsor so most of those guys were back to the 1's. Same guy, different race, bitching about the 2's...

This is because bike handling does -- for the most part -- get better with each class upgrade. Sometimes bike speeds actually go up quite a bit; sometimes riders just have better bike handling skills and can take corners and negotiate pack dynamics a bit better. If a number of your pros were back in the 1's, they may still have been racing against the same people, and if they were used to racing together they were better equipped to handle the racing with their improved skills. A good team with a little bit of experience can really imprint its own personality and style on a race.

[brando]

Thank you cdr for your well-thought-out write ups.

[marciero]

Thank you cdr for your well-thought-out write ups.

This. The videos are also great.

[Chris]

This is because bike handling does -- for the most part -- get better with each class upgrade.

Agreed, but so does arrogance.

[shovelhd]

Agreed, but so does arrogance.

What is that supposed to mean?

[carpediemracing]

Thank you cdr for your well-thought-out write ups.

This. The videos are also great.

Thanks. Just trying to spread some of what I enjoy and what I've learned and try to make it applicable to us regular folks.

[Chris]

What is that supposed to mean?

It means that it's human nature that once you've moved up from one category to the next, there is a tendency to look down on the skill level of those in the categories below. In reality there are a lot of people, as evidenced by this thread, who for whatever reason have chosen to stay in one category or another. There are lots of guys I the 4's and 3's who have been there for years and are as adept at driving their bikes as can be, but don't have the time or desire to train the hours needed to move up.

[carpediemracing]

Agreed, but so does arrogance.

I find that generally speaking the better racers are a bit more humble. The pros, even low level domestic pros, are super humble. They've seen the difference between a Cat 1 and, if they're lucky, a top level pro. I read somewhere that based on power output the difference (percentage? I forget the parameter) between a Cat 1 -> ProTour Pro is bigger than the difference between a Cat 5 -> Cat 1.

There was a local domestic pro at Bethel in 2009. He races now for one of the few teams still around in the US. He was just slaughtering the P123 field, even with a slew of Cat 1s following his every move, which is what you'd expect from a domestic pro. I watched him attack out of the field shortly into a 40-odd mile race, lap the field, then shred the field after he lapped it solo. At some point when he was off the bike I asked him if he got sick of winning.

He laughed.

"Man, I never win. I'm everyone's b*tch in the big races. The only time I can do anything is in small races like here." He quickly looked at me. "No offense, this is a great race."

Ha. I know where Bethel stands in terms of national level, and I took no offense to his comment. Heck, it's part of the reason I did well there.

What he didn't say is that year he was fighting some odd skin cancer and so he had lost his contract. After recovering and finally revealing what he'd been dealing with he secured a contract. After that his riding has kept him a signed rider.

He didn't make excuses. He was open and honest. He was nice. He tried to respect those around him. He was a perfect ambassador to the sport.

I ran across a "real" Euro pro (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/10/story-egos-on-road.html). Again, he was really nice, very humble. He didn't mention that he did the Giro or 15 Classics or led out Andrei Tchmile when Tchmile was one of the better Classics racers.

In SoCal I did a group ride (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/02/california-day-eleven-hot.html). I was super impressed with the riders on the ride, they seemed fluent, sane, "non-egotistical". I talked a bit with one guy. Based on his non-ego, his smooth pedaling, his super fit appearance, I figured him for a 3, maybe a 2. So as not to insult him I asked him if he was a 2. "A 2?!", he laughed, "No way. I'm a 5!"

Later a Kodak Sierra rider blew by us. The whole group lit up with conversation. The pro lived in the area and everyone had a story about how the guy just annihilated them while on, for the pro anyway, a normal not so hard training ride.

I've run across all levels of riders who were humble, kind, polite, just good people.

I think those acting arrogantly would be acting that way regardless of their racing category or whatever other thing.

[avalonracing]

We should have a paceline forum race, I would love to see how all this advice plays out...

I think that would be a blast ;)

[shovelhd]

It means that it's human nature that once you've moved up from one category to the next, there is a tendency to look down on the skill level of those in the categories below. In reality there are a lot of people, as evidenced by this thread, who for whatever reason have chosen to stay in one category or another. There are lots of guys I the 4's and 3's who have been there for years and are as adept at driving their bikes as can be, but don't have the time or desire to train the hours needed to move up.

There are arrogant asshats at every level of this sport. Some of the worst I have worked with were Cat5's that I have coached at the clinics. They know everything, but they really know jack squat. It takes patience to get through to them, and in this sport, patience comes with experience. I think you are simplifying things a little too much.

There's nothing wrong with staying at the same category forever as long as you're not sandbagging. Unless you are a Cat1 looking for a contract, this is all beer league softball, and we all have lives off the bike. We all have to make sacrifices to be able to race. Who is anyone to say what is right for someone else's life?

[Chris]

My whole point was that this thread drift is an over-simplification. See my earlier statement about how perspective changes. My statement about arrogance wasn't about the person in general but as to their perception of their own abilities. The 1s and 2s are filled with plenty of guys with more watts than experience and vice versa for the lower categories. To make broad generalizations about the folks on one category or another is "oversimplifying." The only category of riders who are without doubt prima donnas are the masters racers still toeing the line in the 1-2 races and going on and on about how they are still competitive. :) I keed. I keed.

[mike p]

I've only had the pleasure of knowing and riding with three pro's. Not a large sample, but all three were very nice and actually very humble. One a local pro who regularly participates in our tues night worlds is incredibly nice and helpful to everyone from commuters on up.

Mike