New rear hub design: validity?

[mvrider]

Has anyone seen the Alto Velo R-Symmetric rear hub? Basically, an attempt to improve the dish angle of the drive-side spokes with an extra-large drive-side hub flange. Would the wheel experts here care to chime in?

http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/01/08/startup-alto-velos-r-symmetric-design-promises-drastically-stiffer-stronger-wheels/

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1335844116/alto-velo-bicycle-wheel-innovation

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/003/089/276/f393b5959e28fc7b3ef72c8ed21edf05_large.JPG?1419895 514

[kramnnim]

The comments are interesting...

[Lewis Moon]

Having done a lot of wheel building, the idea intrigues me. Anything that might equalize the tension between drive and non drive would be appreciated.

[dave thompson]

I'm not a wheel guy but what have they done other than make a modern high-flange hub?

[sandyrs]

The opposite of this!

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IMG_9332.jpg

[false_Aest]

I laced up a set of Alchemy hubs and things were a bit more balanced.

Then I tried it with an OC A23. DS/NDS were really, really close in tension - I forget exactly how much but it was closer than the 120/85kgf numbers in the bike rumor article.

I'm curious about the 2x NDS / radial DS lacing pattern and how fast the hubs will engage. I'm way more annoyed by hubs that are sloppy than wheels that flex under a pro's power output.

Ya know?

[David Kirk]

The Hi-Lo flange is nothing new to cycling or motorcycles or even cars. I wonder what difference they are touting?

dave

[Mark McM]

The designers claim that using a larger flange can increase the bracing angle of the right (drive-side) spokes, but it really can't. The limitation on the bracing angle isn't how far out you can move the flange, or how large you can make the flange - the limitation is the interference between the spokes and the derailleur cage. The derailleur is already very close to the spokes (latest 10/11spd derailleur actually narrow the cage plates for more clearance), so there really is no room to increase bracing angle (regardless of flange size). The only way the larger flange can increase stiffness is by shortening the spokes - but you could also just use slightly thicker spokes to achieve the same end.

Even with the shorter spokes, the improvements will be marginal, since the wheel lateral stiffness is affected more by left spokes than the right spokes. Spoke contribution to lateral stiffness is roughly to the square of the sine of the bracing angle, so given that the left flange has about twice the offset as the right, the left spokes contribute about 4 times more to the lateral stiffness.

Nice try, but no cigar.

[k-mac]

I believe the most significant difference is that they went to a lot of effort to try to optimize the benefits and trade-offs between spoke tension differential/flange diameter/flange spacing/ and lacing pattern. Traditionally, it seems it's been handled with a lot of guess work and marketing dollars.

I do like the innovations in the hub seal and bearing seat design, but I worry that the tight tolerances they've specified in order to deliver on their performance might not be sustainable in production manufacturing.

[lhuerta]

...nothing new to see here. Same tech as 30+ year old Campagnolo hi-lo hubs ( http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=d168b7d1-f98d-40e5-89e9-713e5ffeb8ae&Enum=110 ), which has been reintroduced in newest model Hyperon/Bora hubs, with the larger diameter drive side flange.

[AngryScientist]

campy and fulcrum both do this on (i think) all of their models. this is the racing 5 hub, which is really at the low end...

http://www.fulcrumwheels.com/system/product_images/images/racing-speed-35-rear-hb-zo.jpg

[Mark McM]

I believe the most significant difference is that they went to a lot of effort to try to optimize the benefits and trade-offs between spoke tension differential/flange diameter/flange spacing/ and lacing pattern.

Spoke tension differential? That's just the ratio of the flange offsets. They've done nothing remarkable here.

Flange size? Their oversized flange does nothing to increase bracing angle - and if it's so good on the right side, why not make the left flange bigger, too?

Lacing pattern? That's pretty standard, too. Many others have used radial right/crossed left patterns.

According to the article, "Flange width is 50.6, which they say is one of the widest in the industry." In fact, it isn't - flange width on Shimano and Campagnolo rear hubs has been closer to 55 mm for decades. The narrower flange width may actually negate any increase in lateral stiffness from the shorter right spokes.

At best, this is a slight tweeking of industry standard design practices, and not any kind of revolution.

[oldpotatoe]

Spoke tension differential? That's just the ratio of the flange offsets. They've done nothing remarkable here.

Flange size? Their oversized flange does nothing to increase bracing angle - and if it's so good on the right side, why not make the left flange bigger, too?

Lacing pattern? That's pretty standard, too. Many others have used radial right/crossed left patterns.

According to the article, "Flange width is 50.6, which they say is one of the widest in the industry." In fact, it isn't - flange width on Shimano and Campagnolo rear hubs has been closer to 55 mm for decades. The narrower flange width may actually negate any increase in lateral stiffness from the shorter right spokes.

At best, this is a slight tweeking of industry standard design practices, and not any kind of revolution.

Agree. Hi-lo has been around for decades but if you really want to raise LH spoke tension on a 11s wheel, use a offset spoke hole rim AND go to 135mm, to move the big RH flange out some more.