Is it the wheels or frame?

[Keith A]

Well I finally finished tweaking my new (to me) Legend Ti and have had it out for a couple of rides. The frame handles much like my CSi, except it is noticeably stiffer -- particularly the back end. The geometry for the two bikes are very similar, same head/seat angles, BB drop, and chainstay length. The Legend Ti has a 1cm longer seat tube and 0.5cm longer top tube.

I'm using the same components, fork (F1), stem, seat post, pedals, saddle, tires and bar tape. The handlebars are slightly different, Deda 215 shallow drop on the CSi and Ritchey WCS Road Classic on the Legend.

However, the rims on the wheelset are different. The Legend has Mavic CXP 33's, and the CSi has Open Pros -- both have the hubs, spoke count and butting type.

I haven't swapped out wheelsets yet, but wanted to see what you guys/gals thought. Are the CXP 33 rims that much stiffer than the Open Pros? Or is the CSi just better at absorbing the bumps and road vibrations?

[flydhest]

I'm laying dollars to donuts (or perhaps red twizzlers) that the wheels are making a big contribution to the difference in feel. That said, I had a CSi for a while, built for me, that later I replaced (long story) with a Legend. Everything got swapped form one frame to the other. Eye-freakin-dentical. The frames felt quite different. I miss my CSi (sniff :( ) but I do love the Legend. The Legend is built with the Big Air down tube (should be called the Big Ass downtube--hoooooo-weee) and is rock solid. The steel bike had more give--but in a good way.

I am envious of you, Keith. I would love to have a matching CSi/Legend pair.

[PaulE]

Keith,

I have both bikes also. They are identically equipped except for the fork, headset and stem. The Legend has an F2 fork and the CSI has an F1 fork. Aside from that the CSI has Open Corsa's and the Legend has the newer version Open Corsa Evo's. Wheels are identical Wheelsmith open pro's with 32 double-butted spokes and Ultegra hubs. To me, the Legend just feels a little smoother than the CSI. Not a whole lot, but enough to notice.

[Needs Help]

flydhest,

How does Serotta determine whether you need a Big Air downtube? Are those still an option?

[flydhest]

Paul,

I don't want to mislead, and your comment gives a good way to re-express it. My Ti frame is smooth. There is not as much road feel as there was on my CSi--for better and for worse. It's just that in a sprint or out-of-saddle climb, the CSi would flex a touch in a good way. In a spring like way. The Legend just absorbs things a bit more. Both had the same F1 and the same wheels and tires.

Needs Help,

Part of why I ended up owning both was a bit of a shimmy. As it turns out, it was a bit of a misalignment in the fork. Serotta took care of me well--talk about taking responsibility for a problem and rectifying it.

Anyway, my bike is a 60ST 61 TT. I'm 6'2" but I don't have particularly long legs. Anyway, to make sure that the front triangle was stiff enough for the long top tube, and the fact that I was at 215 at the time (down to 190 now) and that I like to "sprint" (I put it in quotation marks as I tend to get my butt handed to me when I do sprint laps with the local fast boys), they wanted a frame that would be firm enough.

This is reminiscent of the Serotta/Seven thread. Serotta has a choice of tubes. Convey your size and needs and Kelly will do a bang-up job. I love my bike and I think that for me, my size, and my riding style, there's no other Ti bike I'd rather have.

[vaxn8r]

The CXP 33's are that much stiffer than the open pro's.

Switch wheelsets. You won't believe the difference. For that matter you could switch out tires to a wider tire or with less air pressure....that would help too. But it's the wheels. you'll see.

[Keith A]

Thanks so much for the replies so far. I will switch out the wheelsets on the next ride of the Legend and report back.

I'm really happy to hear that everyone believes it is the wheels, as I was a bit disappointed with the ride of the Legend compared to my CSi.

[Keith A]

Hey vaxn8r -- I took the liberty of tweaking your avatar. Here it is if you want to use it.

[Larry]

Keith,

I noticed a huge difference when I changed the wheelset on my 1998 CSi.
I had old Ksyrium..... and now new Speeddreams. The bike does ride differently.
The back wheel now seems more efficient with that bombproof rear hub.
The front wheel is lighter and certainly climbs better.

Larry

[Todd Owen]

I also have a CSi and Legend Ti. they do ride different the legend just a bit smoother but a cxp33 and the open pro will have a different ride. the other issue is the spokes and pattern. the relovution spokes are lighter and have a different ride. The columbine dudes recommend a wider flater rim for a better ride than the higher profile stiffer rims. I found the campy neutron wheels to have the best overall feel and have a more boxy rim and bladed thin spokes. If you use the same exact wheels however I find the CSi with more snap and the Legend smoothing out the bumps just a bit better. My first choice is the steel CSi.... of course.

[Larry]

Todd,

Yes..... I think my CSi has more snap than the Legend. I ride my partners Legend every once in a while. They both ride just great, but the steel has the feel for the road. It all depends on your taste and idea of great ride quality.

80 degrees here in Dallas today....... just in time for the Saturday ride around Celina, Texas. Plus..... we always look forward to the roast turkey sandwich with barbecue sauce and jalapenos. The sandwich at the end of the ride is a great motivator over the last 20 miles.

Larry:banana: :banana:

[Too Tall]

You guys QUIT talking about CSI's. I've got a Jones for one and this is just getting me in trouble.

[PanTerra]

Come to the dark side.

[Sandy]

Stiffer wheels.

SSS

[Too Tall]

Flyguy QUIT talking about steel Serottas, it's just killing me. And now I have to sell Queen's b-day gift too....can't take it man...can't take it. Sob.

Hmmm. Matching CSIs.

[dbrk]

I'm more inclined to think that it's the rims/wheels than the tubes especially since the fork is out of the mix of differences. I ride OPs and CPX33s. I ride the latter for the look because I see no advantage in the ride. The Open Pros ride better, less stiff but bullet-proof correct. But rims aside the way the wheels are built can make a huge difference. Some are taut, others a bit more given to forgiveness (before they are too flexy). I'd have the wheelbuilder check tensions. The Legend is generally an overbuilt titanium bike, meaning that in comparison to other ti bikes it is stiffer. I have owned at least four of them (all sold and before custom was the norm) and can't justify another for the price and the comparison to other available ti, to be honest. But this wasn't about the fine virtues of the Legend, which I lust, it was about why it feels stiffer than the CSi. I still maintain that the truly noticeable difference lies in the wheels.

dbrk

[flydhest]

Douglas,

Just to twit you a bit, when you say:

"The Legend is generally an overbuilt titanium bike, meaning that in comparison to other ti bikes it is stiffer."

You don't possibly mean that it could be the tubes . . . do you?
:banana:

[Keith A]

Hey dbrk,

Thanks for the input. I have now had the time to put in some miles on the Legend with both the Open Pros and CXP33s. I do prefer the ride of Open Pros and will be selling the CXP33s shortly to purchase another set of Open Pros for the Legend.

[bcm119]

I've found that spokes make a huge difference too, and the tension they're built with. I just had a set of Open Pros rebuilt with Wheelsmith's AE15 spokes- bladed 15/16, 32 front and rear. They are very noticeably lighter AND more comfortable than the old 14/15's I had on before. Great wheels, I really love them. I could never go back to a harsher riding wheel.

[vaxn8r]

Yet another variable....

I just got a set of Specialized "Mondo" tires...their top of the line road tire. Specialized does a lot of field testing and then refining their products. Anyway, they gave me a set of these to try out and give them feedback.

I was interested to see their recommended inflation is between 120-130psi. I usually use about 115-120psi. Anyway, I thought, well, why not pump them to 130 like they say? Well, my "magic carpet" Tetra Pro turned into an aluminum frame with CXP 30's! OK, I'm exaggerating a bit but not that much.

Next time I'll try the lower end of their recommended pressure rating.

Other than that the tire seems to roll well and felt great ripping down some twisty roads. I felt very confident at high speed. I'll reserve recommendations until I try lower psi though.

[mls]

i would also say the wheels but the steel has a bit more spring
the ti a little smoother by the way can you tell me the difference
between the 2 bars i have the 215s now and the classic on
order

[Keith A]

mls -- The Deda 215 shallow drops and the Ritchey WCS Classic bars are very similar. The drop on both bars is 135mm and the reach is 2mm longer on the Ritchey's at 82mm. The bars feel almost the same, but I have noticed a slight difference in the way my hands feel when I'm riding on the hoods. The STI lever positions are the same, but it just feels a little different. If I had to choose between the two, I would go with the Deda 215's -- but I wouldn't hesitate in buying the Ritchey WCS Classic again and would let the price be my guide.

[Climb01742]

keith, i'd ditto two points you made: open pro's ride very nicely, and ritchey WCS classic bar is a sweet bar. big thumbs up to both. and both a decidedly "old school".

[Keith A]

Sometimes the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is true. It is interesting when you watch the footage of the pro riders and see how many of them use round bars instead of the anatomic ones.