Carbon wheels for a Fred?

[paredown]

I've been admiring a bike that is for sale that comes with carbon wheels--and my first thought was 'Sell the carbon'--and then it struck me that I have had no experience with carbon wheels.

I found this thread--'Who races and trains on carbon wheels (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=160900&highlight=carbon+wheels)' and I'm sure that I was racing I would want the latest and lightest, but I'm interested as to whether or not a Fred should consider riding on them.

I've been a 32h good alu rim guy for my riding life and would be interested in hearing about the advantages of carbon.

(An aside--I was passed on my regular route by a racing pack--and the first thing I noticed was the different sound of the pack--all those carbon wheels turning in anger sound different than a pack at speed on old school tubs/alloy wheels...)

[kgreene10]

I race on carbon and pull them out for the occasional training ride with the fast guys. For me, the biggest downside is braking. For that reason alone, I wouldn't train on them regularly.

[carpediemracing]

I've been admiring a bike that is for sale that comes with carbon wheels--and my first thought was 'Sell the carbon'--and then it struck me that I have had no experience with carbon wheels.

I found this thread--'Who races and trains on carbon wheels (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=160900&highlight=carbon+wheels)' and I'm sure that I was racing I would want the latest and lightest, but I'm interested as to whether or not a Fred should consider riding on them.

I've been a 32h good alu rim guy for my riding life and would be interested in hearing about the advantages of carbon.

(An aside--I was passed on my regular route by a racing pack--and the first thing I noticed was the different sound of the pack--all those carbon wheels turning in anger sound different than a pack at speed on old school tubs/alloy wheels...)

I'd try them if nothing else.

I'm pretty sure that the majority of us here ride bikes "better" than necessary. It's like the car that we bought primarily for my use. I could have bought a minimum level car, like the same model but at the base level. Instead I opted for some deluxe stuff. Car doesn't get me there any faster but it's more fun to drive/etc.

If you ride a lot, or even just derive enjoyment from thinking about bikes, then why not try the fancy stuff?

I tell myself I use the fancy carbon wheels I have *edit because they help /edit, and I do, but the reality is that they're an incremental difference. In my world my fitness/weight is by far the biggest variable and wheels only make a small difference overall. The reality is that sometimes I can't work on fitness/weight so on some years I'm a fat guy on fancy wheels, other years I'm a less-fat guy on fancy wheels, and even at my absolute best I'm a competitive middle-of-the-road-Cat 3 at best.

When non-cyclists ask about the wheels I talk vaguely about the aero and weight benefits. When non-racing cyclists ask me about the wheels I tell them I got them because I like the sound and it makes my bike look cool (to me). When racers ask me I tell them my justification for buying them (worth a foot or three in a sprint, may help me not get shelled in a race).

[AngryScientist]

how much do you weigh?

for most cyclists, for road riding 32 spoke wheels are colossally overbuilt and dont ride nearly as well as something more tuned to the rider and road conditions.

[josephr]

We've got quite a few guys in our groups that ride carbon wheels...I can hang with them pretty easy and I'm just a regular ole B group rider so I can't say they're going to improve performance nearly as much as Tuesday night hill repeats. If you have the $ and want to give them a try, go for it...

[bcroslin]

I rode box wheels for years and never thought I'd see a difference and then I bought a bike that came with a cheap set of DT Swiss 50mm carbon wheels and the difference was unmistakable. I ended up having a custom set of carbon wheels built that set me back about $1300 and I ride them every day. As a matter of fact I have a set of DA C-24's that I haven't touched in months and need to sell.

[Elefantino]

I'm pretty sure that the majority of us here ride bikes "better" than necessary. ... If you ride a lot, or even just derive enjoyment from thinking about bikes, then why not try the fancy stuff?
Couldn't have said it better.

[firerescuefin]

I love the feel and sound when I am out of the saddle, under effort....with my carbon tubulars underneath me. The feel of power transfer, and the sound it emits brings a smile to my cycling heart. I certainly feel faster on them, especially above 20 MPH, but they just add fun to my experience. I justify owning them with the latter, not the former.

All that to say, give em a try. It may be something that you enjoy.

[zap]

Ride what you want and enjoy.

[paredown]

how much do you weigh?

for most cyclists, for road riding 32 spoke wheels are colossally overbuilt and dont ride nearly as well as something more tuned to the rider and road conditions.

I've been yo-yoing from around 170- 185# (5'11") depending on how hard I've been working and how much riding I have been getting in.

I used to race BITD, and I have a decent non-masher riding style--fairly high rpms, fairly smooth. Even when I was really fit, I probably only broke spokes in a back wheel a couple of times--back when spokes were probably less well-made than now.

[oldpotatoe]

how much do you weigh?

for most cyclists, for road riding 32 spoke wheels are colossally overbuilt and dont ride nearly as well as something more tuned to the rider and road conditions.

'Most' riders? Most riders are pushing 185-200 pounds and 32h are not ' 'colossally' over built at all. Particularly with some of the lighter aluminum rims out there.

For the OP, sure use them but if clincher not a bunch lighter than aluminum rim wheels. Gotta do tubular for lotsa less weight. Some aero benefit if fast enough and stiffer for sure, what most 'feel' when they talk about the 'spins up quickly' gig.

[fogrider]

I've been yo-yoing from around 170- 185# (5'11") depending on how hard I've been working and how much riding I have been getting in.

I used to race BITD, and I have a decent non-masher riding style--fairly high rpms, fairly smooth. Even when I was really fit, I probably only broke spokes in a back wheel a couple of times--back when spokes were probably less well-made than now.

at your weight and riding style, you should have no problems with carbon wheels. You could get lower count alum wheels and drop some weight. the question is do you ride tubulars? the real weight savings is going to tubulars. then there's aero, with deeper rims, being about the same weight as low profile rims, you are able to maintain your speed. for speed, the real advantage is jumping on with a fast group and light weigh helps. I ride on alum rims during the week (and when it wet) and ride carbon on the weekends, that way, I feel difference more.

[carpediemracing]

I've been yo-yoing from around 170- 185# (5'11") depending on how hard I've been working and how much riding I have been getting in.

I used to race BITD, and I have a decent non-masher riding style--fairly high rpms, fairly smooth. Even when I was really fit, I probably only broke spokes in a back wheel a couple of times--back when spokes were probably less well-made than now.

You'll be fine on carbon, at least in terms of durability. I raced last year about 170-175, I was 180-200+ when on DV46s (clincher and tubular), etc.

If you raced "BITD" then you probably are one of the old school riders that was taught you're supposed to do 1500 miles in a 42x18 before putting it the big ring. If so then you also learned a lot of stuff that makes you "lighter" on the wheels. When I was regularly 190-210 lbs I was on the first gen Eurus - 16/21 spoke I think, with 23c tires. No issues, even when I double flatted and rode back to the car.

As pointed out above aero carbon clinchers don't necessarily save a ton of weight. You save the weight when you do either non-aero carbon clinchers (but you could just as easily do a NOS 280g aluminum rim) or, for the best of both worlds, do a tall aero carbon tubular.

My carbon-faired-with-alum-rim clinchers complete with tires/etc weigh +/- 3 lbs more than my 60/60 and 75/90 carbon tubulars. Same hubs, spokes, similar cassettes, so it's in the rim/tire/tube/etc. It's nice to use the tall carbon tubulars because they spin up reasonably well, for 500g rims or whatever they are, but the aero allows me to hit and go through a certain wind threshold.

[Hermes_Alex]

A lot of the time system wheels get a lot more strength out of fewer spokes by virtue of some of the design elements you can do in a complete design which a traditional, j-bend thing prevents you from doing. The comparison between an oldschool box-section wheel and a low-spoke-count complete wheel is a bit of an apples-and-oranges thing.

[fogrider]

just for comparison, mavic ksyrium SLS clinchers comes in right at 1400 grams 18 spokes in the front and 20 in rear, non aero.

Reynolds 46 tubulars are about 1200 grams with 16 spokes in the front and 20 in the rear. 46 mm is about the minimum depth you need for an aero benefit and decent handling in windy conditions. additionally, tubular tires are lighter than clinchers and innertubes.

again the lighter weight provides a quick feel but its the aero depth that translates to speed.

[shovelhd]

You don't have to be "worthy" to ride what you own. You might be surprised what the majority of a Cat5 field looks like. So ride what you like. Now selling the carbon to buy a cheaper aluminum and recover some cash, that's a different matter. It might make economic sense to you.

In my opinion, if you've ever pinned on a number, then Fred doesn't apply.

[paredown]

a...the question is do you ride tubulars? the real weight savings is going to tubulars. then there's aero, with deeper rims, being about the same weight as low profile rims, you are able to maintain your speed...

Clinchers, mainly because of budget...

I loved tubulars BITD--that is everything except for the price and the PITA repairs.:mad:

[paredown]

...
If you raced "BITD" then you probably are one of the old school riders that was taught you're supposed to do 1500 miles in a 42x18 before putting it the big ring. ....

Word.

Our coach used to make us ride fixed--or he would lock down the adjustment screws on the rear derailleur in the spring...

I can still remember the feeling that my knee caps were going to fly off...

[velomonkey]

Been through a lot of wheels - check my thread on wheel whore - here is what I can say. I will never, ever buy another set of Carbon Clinchers. EVER. Carbon tubular - man, wish I had enough money to ride that all the time.

Carbon clinchers. Man they rode like junk. YMMV. Sold a set of mine, ENVE 3.4 to Enr1co. He loves them.

[Ralph]

I'm a fan of carbon wheels, especially in tubular version....where I think most of the benefit is. And especially in wheels where CF's strength is used to advantage for a low spoke count wheel, matched with a good set of hubs. And some good brake pads. Although....I do think for most riders who can't pedal on flats up in high 20's or even in 30's, the aero advange is not very much. Good quality 1400-1500 gram aluminum rim wheels with great hubs in about a 35 MM depth are still very competitive for all around use for most riders. Shimano (C 35) and campy (Zonda, Eurus, Shamal), etc.

However.....I'm seeing a lot of cheap deep clincher carbons with normal spoke counts (24-28), very cheap hubs with weak looking flanges, small bearing sizes, and poor practices for how wheel is built. Many of these weigh about 1700-1800 grams, the bearings will wear out fast, they won't stop in rain well, and I would not put them on my bike. But hey.....they are riding carbon.... right?

[fogrider]

I'm a fan of carbon wheels, especially in tubular version....where I think most of the benefit is. And especially in wheels where CF's strength is used to advantage for a low spoke count wheel, matched with a good set of hubs. And some good brake pads. Although....I do think for most riders who can't pedal on flats up in high 20's or even in 30's, the aero advange is not very much. Good quality 1400-1500 gram aluminum rim wheels with great hubs in about a 35 MM depth are still very competitive for all around use for most riders. Shimano and campy, etc.

However.....I'm seeing a lot of cheap deep carbons with normal spoke counts (24-28), very cheap hubs with weak looking flanges, small bearing sizes, and poor practices for how wheel is built. Many of these weigh about 1700-1800 grams, the bearings will wear out fast, they won't stop in rain well, and I would not put them on my bike. But hey.....they are riding carbon.... right?

yes, there are poorly designed wheels out there in carbon and alum. that said, I remember a tread where someone found a decent carbon tubular from asia...
and while tubulars can be a PITA, I think they are worth it. I don't have a problem gluing tires on and you can use tape now. and there are good tires out there for a decent price.

[1centaur]

Carbon wheels can add .2 to .3 mph to a 50 mile rolling hills ride; you can feel a little aero benefit at 18 mph and more at 22mph and up; occasionally you'll look at the speedo and be going 21.5 when you thought you were more like 20.2; deep section wheels can feel less comfortable than box section, but the carbon can give it a little different feel; the wind sound is different and sometimes fun; braking squeal is harder to avoid and really annoying so you'll work that toe-in; side wind gusts can feel intentional and a bit scary, which can make you want box section on a given day.

I went back to box sections after a couple of years for simplicity, more comfort, better braking, less squeal, and no wind gusts, and gave up that .2 mph. Seems like a good trade-off. But CF wheels do look better on modern race bikes.

[Thrillho]

I ride crabon wheels pretty much all the time. On my road bike. On my cross bike. On my mountain bikes. On my TT bike. Even on my rain bike. They brake just fine if you have good brakes and proper pads. They are extremely durable. They look good. Will they turn you into Pierre Roland? No, of course not. But I think the only real drawback is cost. And even there, its not so bad. You can get a used set of firecrest 303s (clincher or tubular) for $1000 bucks if you look around.

[notsew]

This is off topic, but what makes them sound so cool (to my ear)? I've always assumed it was a function of the aero shape, but does it actually have something to do with the carbon?

[lhuerta]

This is off topic, but what makes them sound so cool (to my ear)? I've always assumed it was a function of the aero shape, but does it actually have something to do with the carbon?

...the hollow chamber created by the aero fairing, not the spokes or rims cutting the wind