Cycling in the EPO era: 65 per cent ‘juiced’ … and probably more

[Veloo]

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2014/12/31/cycling-in-the-epo-era-65-per-cent-dirty-and-probably-more-311201/

Nice to have the graphic. Cuz I likes pictures.

[bikinchris]

IMO, the only ones NOT juiced can't afford it.

[CunegoFan]

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2014/12/31/cycling-in-the-epo-era-65-per-cent-dirty-and-probably-more-311201/

Nice to have the graphic. Cuz I likes pictures.

This is hard to believe. I have to wonder how Lance Armstrong forced all these riders to dope, even the ones on different teams who were doping before he won the Tour and continued after he retired. He must have been one busy dude. It is surprising he had time left to train.

I did get a laugh out of Andy Schleck being assigned to the clean riders. Also Oscar Pereiro, who aside from his backdated TUE was using artificial hemoglobin in 2006.

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2014/12/31/cycling-in-the-epo-era-65-per-cent-dirty-and-probably-more-311201/

Nice to have the graphic. Cuz I likes pictures.

Mee too, but I'd like to see a 'picture' of the juicing going on in some other aerobic sports, like soccer(football), cross country skiing, running, and probably a host of others. Cycling isn't unique then or now. The doping of choice right now is blood doping/boosting..taking your own blood out and then returning it since there is no test for that.

[Black Dog]

Mee too, but I'd like to see a 'picture' of the juicing going on in some other aerobic sports, like soccer(football), cross country skiing, running, and probably a host of others. Cycling isn't unique then or now. The doping of choice right now is blood doping/boosting..taking your own blood out and then returning it since there is no test for that.

I agree. Most other sports are getting a free ride from cycling (bad pun, I know). They can sit in silence while cycling has it dirty laundry aired in the media knowing that they have as big a problem to deal with. However, homologous blood transfusions are detectable through the the biological passport, and easily. As soon as you transfuse your own blood your hematocrit level suddenly jumps up, there are few natural ways for this to happen.

[Veloo]

I never knew Movistar was former Banesto.

And yes, the naiveté shown by some people that praise their (other) sport as being squeaky clean is just hilarious. I saw one lad add his 2 cents about how tight NBA controls are on any PEDs and it just made us laugh.

[shovelhd]

IMO, the only ones NOT juiced can't afford it.

Nevertheless, not everyone capable of a top ten in a grand tour was doping. Maybe the Lance rumpswabs will finally wake up and acknowledge this.

[jr59]

I have said this in almost every doping thread I have come across.

Pro sports is a dirty business! It's entertainment. Cycling has been dirty for 100 plus years. And please don't tell me about the dope then and the dope now. People cheat to gain an advantage, for a chance to win. They are going to use everything that they can to do just that. If Eddy Mercxx had EPO in his time, he would have done it. Same with every other pro rider in time. The drugs will always be ahead of the tests, and as long as there is money at stake, people will cheat, and dope!

I don't see the problem. Pro cycling entertains me. Thats what it is suppose to do.

You want clean sport, go watch small children play. By the time they get to HS, some are going to cheat, anything after that, the % goes way up.

[jr59]

Nevertheless, not everyone capable of a top ten in a grand tour was doping. Maybe the Lance rumpswabs will finally wake up and acknowledge this.


That is a very broad statement. In fact it is only your opinion. As history has shown, pro cycling has been dirty for over 100 years. So to your opinion, maybe not!

[shovelhd]

That is a very broad statement. In fact it is only your opinion. As history has shown, pro cycling has been dirty for over 100 years. So to your opinion, maybe not!

I was referring specifically to the subject of this thread, which is not based on my opinion. How accurate the 65% number is debateable as is the source of the data, but unless you know something I don't know, 65% does not equal 100%. Not even close.

[shovelhd]

I don't see the problem.

You want clean sport, go watch small children play. By the time they get to HS, some are going to cheat, anything after that, the % goes way up.

That's the problem.

[jr59]

Nevertheless, not everyone capable of a top ten in a grand tour was doping. Maybe the Lance rumpswabs will finally wake up and acknowledge this.

I was referring specifically to the subject of this thread, which is not based on my opinion. How accurate the 65% number is debateable as is the source of the data, but unless you know something I don't know, 65% does not equal 100%. Not even close.

OK! Your opinion is that everyone that enters a Grand Tour is capable of winning. Alright, I guess in a perfect world that works. I mean they started, so if EVERYONE drops out a rider could win, but that would not be so either b/c of the team TT. So really, you would have to have a team be included in that <35%. IMO; The maybe not is a better bet!

If it was so easy to find a clean rider, why are there 7 vacant spots in the TDF?

But seeing as this will never be settled with anything but opinions, I'll just agree to disagree.

[jr59]

That's the problem.


Oh Boy, now you have said a mouthful.

Pro athletes are NOT role models. Pro athletes are entertainers. Actors if you will.

You want to handle that problem, BLAME the parents! Not the pro athletes!

[Cicli]

Oh Boy, now you have said a mouthful.

Pro athletes are NOT role models. Pro athletes are entertainers. Actors if you will.

You want to handle that problem, BLAME the parents! Not the pro athletes!

Man, Dr. Ferrari sure had a lot of kids.

[jr59]

Man, Dr. Ferrari sure had a lot of kids.

And these "kids" just ran away from home to go with Dr. Ferrari, never to be seen or heard from again? REALLY????

[oldpotatoe]

I agree. Most other sports are getting a free ride from cycling (bad pun, I know). They can sit in silence while cycling has it dirty laundry aired in the media knowing that they have as big a problem to deal with. However, homologous blood transfusions are detectable through the the biological passport, and easily. As soon as you transfuse your own blood your hematocrit level suddenly jumps up, there are few natural ways for this to happen.

Cycling-biological passport. AND

Unless you micro dose all the time to make sure you have a high baseline level..even using things like O2 tents. Tough on your liver, among other things but I think the sports where they don't do any sort of biological passport, non cycling, it's pretty common, IMHO.

[Tandem Rider]

Not everyone in Pro Cycling dopes. That I know.

Some in Pro cycling dope. That I know. Is it 65%?? Who knows.

Did Lance cause doping? Nope, I saw it first hand before Lance ever kitted up.

Did it stop with Lance in 2006? Nope, I've seen and raced against it since.

Is the dope different now from "back then"?? Yup. The difference is, "back then" it was possible to race clean and be competitive, not so during the 90's and 00's. Amateur racing, it is possible to race clean now and be competitive, not sure about pro.

Would the guys doping "back then" have used the most powerful available?? Probably, the mental step is obviously been taken, and the "stuff" back then was probably more harmful than the modern "stuff".

Is cycling the only sport with a doping problem?? You would have to be blind or stupid to not see it. (Unless you consider no testing = no positives = no problem = no doping)

[shovelhd]

OK! Your opinion is that everyone that enters a Grand Tour is capable of winning. Alright, I guess in a perfect world that works. I mean they started, so if EVERYONE drops out a rider could win, but that would not be so either b/c of the team TT. So really, you would have to have a team be included in that <35%. IMO; The maybe not is a better bet!

If it was so easy to find a clean rider, why are there 7 vacant spots in the TDF?

But seeing as this will never be settled with anything but opinions, I'll just agree to disagree.

I'm not sure you read the article. It clearly states the subject group were those that finished in the top ten of the TDF. Maybe this is where we disagree. I believe that most riders that finish in the top ten of a grand tour are capable of winning that race. The point was that it was not the backmarkers, the guys who could hide in the field, kill it when the radio told them to, and finish OTB. It's the guys who had a chance to win. Again, dispute the data and the conclusions of the article, that's fine, but if you give it credence, 35% of the riders capable of finishing in the top ten in the TDF were clean. Therefore not everyone was doping. So the excuse that the Lance sycophants throw out is false.

[shovelhd]

Oh Boy, now you have said a mouthful.

Pro athletes are NOT role models. Pro athletes are entertainers. Actors if you will.

You want to handle that problem, BLAME the parents! Not the pro athletes!

I guess you never lied to your parents.

The point was that it trickles down to amateur athletics at all levels. That's the problem.

[bdawe]

Love the poster. What a past. Seems like a waste to keep rehashing it. Are we doing enough today to make sure everyone is following the rules?

[numbskull]

However, homologous blood transfusions are detectable through the the biological passport, and easily. As soon as you transfuse your own blood your hematocrit level suddenly jumps up, there are few natural ways for this to happen.

Maybe not.

Hematocit (HCT)and hemoglobin (HGB) levels are essentially concentration measurements (one by volume the other by weight). If you give some one a unit a blood and several liters of saline (or even salt tabs and water by mouth) the HCT/HGB will not change much even while their total body oxygen carrying capacity and total blood volume increases. You can also hold this extra volume in someone's body easily for a day or two with non-banned meds such as ibuprofen. A well trained athlete could easily handle a substantial expansion of blood volume without detectable change in HCT.

I have no idea how they do their biological passport testing but to tell if someone has blood doped using their own blood you would need something more than a blood test.

[54ny77]

i always assumed it was 68.3%, but why split hairs. ;)

[Veloo]

Have any of you ever heard a pro rider give up names of other pros that were absolutely clean? I'd love to see/ read this as I've only seen some articles with a few names that s0 and so was known in the peloton to be clean. So far I've only heard about Mottet and Delion. Well.. from my era.

[LegendRider]

Have any of you ever heard a pro rider give up names of other pros that were absolutely clean? I'd love to see/ read this as I've only seen some articles with a few names that s0 and so was known in the peloton to be clean. So far I've only heard about Mottet and Delion. Well.. from my era.

David Moncoutie was widely regarded as clean.

[saab2000]

Have any of you ever heard a pro rider give up names of other pros that were absolutely clean? I'd love to see/ read this as I've only seen some articles with a few names that s0 and so was known in the peloton to be clean. So far I've only heard about Mottet and Delion. Well.. from my era.

This is interesting. I know Mottet shined very brightly for several years and then dropped off the face of the planet about the time of the rise of the EPO generation.

He certainly went from the top of the sport to out of the sport very fast. That could reflect his unwillingness to participate in that world.

[shovelhd]

Love the poster. What a past. Seems like a waste to keep rehashing it. Are we doing enough today to make sure everyone is following the rules?

At the pro level,not sure. At the amateur level, not even close.

[shovelhd]

This is interesting. I know Mottet shined very brightly for several years and then dropped off the face of the planet about the time of the rise of the EPO generation.

He certainly went from the top of the sport to out of the sport very fast. That could reflect his unwillingness to participate in that world.

I see this with amateur racing. A big race announces that USADA is testing and the DNS list goes well above average. I've also seen my share of guys with the paper thin skin go out and kill it for a year or two and then disappear.

[rain dogs]

David Moncoutie was widely regarded as clean.

Yup.

I want to know if people out there believe that because a large % of the competition was doping that uniquely absolves LA, in isolation, from sanction?

I never heard people complaining about the "fairness" of sanctions with any other sanctioned riders, but Lance.

Back to Moncoutie, I challenge anyone to find one credible lead that even remotely links Moncoutie to doping. One story. One allegation. For every mountain of evidence against many on this list (like LA) there exists an equally large set of anecdote that Moncoutie was riding to the "dotted i's" and "crossed t's" of the anti-doping code.

He finished 13th in the 2002 Tour.
He finished 8th in the 2008 Vuelta.

That's competitive. That's very competitive... on a poor team as well.

So, when the apologists start proselytizing, LA included, they need consider Moncoutie.

Think of the 2002 Tour. That's as high octane/evolved as it got. So if he can get 13th clean, he's a podium finisher, or a potential winner if everyone is off the dope.

[Tandem Rider]

I see this with amateur racing. A big race announces that USADA is testing and the DNS list goes well above average. I've also seen my share of guys with the paper thin skin go out and kill it for a year or two and then disappear.

I have seen this at 2011 Nats even. Who'da thunk you might have to pee in the bottle at Master's Nats? After racing at the front year after year you just kind of "know" who is turbocharging. You get a feel for what is and isn't normal for your your age group.

[jr59]

At the pro level,not sure. At the amateur level, not even close.

I see this with amateur racing. A big race announces that USADA is testing and the DNS list goes well above average. I've also seen my share of guys with the paper thin skin go out and kill it for a year or two and then disappear.

This brings up a very good point/idea.

Why not spend the money on testing EVERY rider at EVERY big race EVERY time. At the jr amateur level. If they did this for 7-10 years, it would help greatly. That and test dirty and you are banned for life. Even at the youngest jr level. This would bring a new breed to the pro ranks, somewhat clean.

Do that at the pro level now and I don't think you could field a race. Just the culture of things. But the way to stop it is at the youth stage.

[shovelhd]

This brings up a very good point/idea.

Why not spend the money on testing EVERY rider at EVERY big race EVERY time. At the jr amateur level. If they did this for 7-10 years, it would help greatly. That and test dirty and you are banned for life. Even at the youngest jr level. This would bring a new breed to the pro ranks, somewhat clean.

Do that at the pro level now and I don't think you could field a race. Just the culture of things. But the way to stop it is at the youth stage.

At today's cost, it would kill the sport.

[CunegoFan]

Again, dispute the data and the conclusions of the article, that's fine, but if you give it credence, 35% of the riders capable of finishing in the top ten in the TDF were clean. Therefore not everyone was doping. So the excuse that the Lance sycophants throw out is false.

That 65% is the bare miminum. During 1999-2005 there are only six riders in the top ten who are shown as green: Nardello, Simon, Kivilev, Sastre, Zubeldia, and Evans. I would not bet a single penny on Nardello, Kivilev, or Zubeldia. That leaves Simon, Sastre and Evans. Simon was only in the top ten because he was allowed to gain a huge amount of time in a break. I could spend a lot of words explaining why Sastre and Evans are suspicious, not the least of which is they both rode for multiple teams with teamwide doping programs.

Also during that time the following riders are shown as blue: Casero, Belli, Peron, Galdeano, Beloki, Escartin, Serrano, Azevedo, and Pereiro. Those are riders who have an association with doping but no conviction. There is not a single rider in that list I would bet a bent nickle on.

[CunegoFan]

Why not spend the money on testing EVERY rider at EVERY big race EVERY time. At the jr amateur level. If they did this for 7-10 years, it would help greatly. That and test dirty and you are banned for life. Even at the youngest jr level. This would bring a new breed to the pro ranks, somewhat clean.

Do that at the pro level now and I don't think you could field a race. Just the culture of things. But the way to stop it is at the youth stage.

Testing costs roughly a thousand dollars per test...

[charliedid]

Pro Cycling should give up trying to rid the sport of drugs, and just REQUIRE everyone to smoke weed.

[bdawe]

Pocket change! No test, no race!

[shovelhd]

That 65% is the bare miminum. During 1999-2005 there are only six riders in the top ten who are shown as green: Nardello, Simon, Kivilev, Sastre, Zubeldia, and Evans. I would not bet a single penny on Nardello, Kivilev, or Zubeldia. That leaves Simon, Sastre and Evans. Simon was only in the top ten because he was allowed to gain a huge amount of time in a break. I could spend a lot of words explaining why Sastre and Evans are suspicious, not the least of which is they both rode for multiple teams with teamwide doping programs.

Also during that time the following riders are shown as blue: Casero, Belli, Peron, Galdeano, Beloki, Escartin, Serrano, Azevedo, and Pereiro. Those are riders who have an association with doping but no conviction. There is not a single rider in that list I would bet a bent nickle on.

That's your opinion.

[Black Dog]

At today's cost, it would kill the sport.


This is true. Testing everyone is too expensive and not needed.

They should not announce that they are going to test and also test some of the DNF riders too. Riders should not know that there is going to be testing.

[shovelhd]

They should not announce that they are going to test and also test some of the DNF riders too. Riders should not know that there is going to be testing.

I completely agree.

[CunegoFan]

That's your opinion.

Yeah, it could not be greater than 65% because they caught every single doper and the remaining riders, like Pereiro who told the others he was using artificial hemoglobin, were lying to impress their mates.

[shovelhd]

Yeah, it could not be greater than 65% because they caught every single doper and the remaining riders, like Pereiro who told the others he was using artificial hemoglobin, were lying to impress their mates.

Did I say that there could not have been more than 65%?

[Tandem Rider]

This is true. Testing everyone is too expensive and not needed.

They should not announce that they are going to test and also test some of the DNF riders too. Riders should not know that there is going to be testing.

Also test a few DNSers too. No more pulling up, seeing the tent and going home.