question: ordering a custom bike - contracts

[AngryScientist]

seeing the other thread on "builders with integrity" has me thinking.

for those of you who have ordered custom bikes to be built: was there a written contract? was it only a verbal agreement, or were the terms of that agreement layed out on paper? is a delivery date part of said contract?

maybe it isnt "old school", but perhaps written agreements are better than the old handshake in certain circumstances. at the very least, it put's both parties exact expectations in black and white.

thought?

[tigoat]

Not sure if some builders will agree to a legal business contract due to the nature of the business. Most promises in the email and phone conversations are not contractual legally. Is it necessary though to have a legal contract?

[raygunner]

Not sure if some builders will agree to a legal business contract due to the nature of the business. Most promises in the email and phone conversations are not contractual legally. Is it necessary though to have a legal contract?

But on the flipside builders often state their terms & conditions such as "X" amount down, "X" amount due at another point and "X" point due at paint, ect.

Should there be certain performance metrics afforded to the customer after entering into the contract (either written or oral)?

[AngryScientist]

Not sure if some builders will agree to a legal business contract due to the nature of the business.

what do you mean by that statement exactly, curious? there is raw material procurement, labor and perhaps subcontracted finish work. what is the "nature of the business" that makes framebuilding any different than other things you can buy, from a contractual standpoint?

a framebuilder, presumably should have a good handle on:

-price and lead time to procure a tubeset
-a production rate for in-house labor (building the bike)
-amount of work in queue vs labor rate
-availability and lead time of subcontracted labor (paint, powder)

what variable should preclude a binding contract?

[ntb1001]

Once you hand over money, and services are expected, you have a contract and email would be included in that.
Saying that, you might as well have an actual contract, it's better for both parties less chance of misunderstanding or confusion. I don't know of any business that wouldn't want one.

[Charles M]

Don't buy a bike from someone you feel is being vague...

Just don't...


There are TONS of good builders that will tell you how much the bike will be up front, what the deposit is and when (within a few weeks) the bike will be done.


Of course there are absolute 5h!thead customers that will call and change things, from paint to geo to materials... and those folks can go take a flying *&#* with their complaints about lead time and cost changes...

But you wont feel strange if you're working with someone worth working with.

[tigoat]

what do you mean by that statement exactly, curious? there is raw material procurement, labor and perhaps subcontracted finish work. what is the "nature of the business" that makes framebuilding any different than other things you can buy, from a contractual standpoint?

a framebuilder, presumably should have a good handle on:

-price and lead time to procure a tubeset
-a production rate for in-house labor (building the bike)
-amount of work in queue vs labor rate
-availability and lead time of subcontracted labor (paint, powder)

what variable should preclude a binding contract?

Understand the list there but most builders do not have an effective repeatable process in place to deal the production so most of them operate based on a very crude estimate system. In another word, most of them are not a very efficient manufacturer. To make things worst, some of them will take on more that what they can chew on. Nonetheless, this is just the nature of a custom craft business and is not limited to frame building, as I have seen it from other custom building industries as well.

[Peter P.]

The blueprint Sean at Soulcraft sent me required my approval via e-mail. So I had to read it carefully to make sure the specs were what I wanted.

The only "written" contract were the payment terms on his web site and blueprint which confirmed exactly what I was getting. As far as lead times and delivery dates go, there was no guarantee.

Same held true for my Rock Lobster.

Some builders will list transferability and cancellation terms, but not much else.

The more production-oriented companies such as Independent Fabrications, Lynskey Performance, and Seven seem to be more capable of delivering near quoted times. After all, they have many mouths to feed so timely output and payment is vital. Custom builders go at their own pace which allows for more time off and other interruptions.

You may want to consider whether a builder offers some delivery guarantee before choosing a custom frame.

[abalone]

Most of the written agreements with framebuilders that I know of are in the form of a deposit and final amount due upon completion without any promises for when the frame is due. So, you are basically at the mercy of the builder should a disagreement arise. That's why it's very important to go with someone that is honest about delivery and product workmanship. There are some extremely good builders out there, and also some extremely shady ones too. The problem is that most builders stick up for one another so it would be quite difficult to find any info on the builders who have really screwed over some of their customer.

[firerescuefin]

Understand the list there but most builders do not have an effective repeatable process in place to deal the production so most of them operate based on a very crude estimate system. In another word, most of them are not a very efficient manufacturer. To make things worst, some of them will take on more that what they can chew on. Nonetheless, this is just the nature of a custom craft business and is not limited to frame building, as I have seen it from other custom building industries as well.

There are quite few renown builders who the above is not the case. They seem much more adept at the business and customer service side. I'd tell you to raise your expectations. The faster the "misunderstood artist" is weeded out of the business, the better IMO.

[fuzzalow]

No, never a contract although usually a receipt for payment upon remittance of the deposit.

For the amount of money at risk, i.e. the deposit amount paid, and the nature of business dealings often involving sole proprietorships or very small operations, a contract may be worth less than the paper it is written on. Add to the complications in inter-state commerce for varying consumer protection laws and you could wind up with a contract that is unenforceable and non-binding. I'd guess that you could piece together a contract from common boilerplate contract language to meet the minimum threshold as to legality but you will still be beholden to the condition stated in the first sentence of this paragraph.

Basically, you pays yer money and you take yer chances.

[p nut]

I guess I'm of the opinion that a contract in this context (relatively small purchase, comparatively) would serve no purpose. If things go south, would you really spend $$ in legal fees (and time wasted) to get your $500 deposit back? (assuming the guy didn't skip town).

If you can't trust the guy enough to sign a contract, perhaps you shouldn't be doing business with him at all.

[makoti]

By the time I got around to giving either of the gentlemen who bike my bikes money, I was completely comfortable with them, so I was fine with their word & a receipt for the deposit. Never had any problems, either.
Now, both were established builders. If you are going with someone just starting out, you may want to hedge your bets with a more formal agreement, but I would think a receipt that states what you are making your deposit for & expected date of delivery would be enough.

[mike p]

Sorry but this makes no sense at all. We should never expect on time deliveries from anyone in the custom craft business because that's just the nature of the business? I'm sure many good craftsmen would disagree. Being an artist of any type is not an excuse to exercise shoddy business practices.

Mike

Understand the list there but most builders do not have an effective repeatable process in place to deal the production so most of them operate based on a very crude estimate system. In another word, most of them are not a very efficient manufacturer. To make things worst, some of them will take on more that what they can chew on. Nonetheless, this is just the nature of a custom craft business and is not limited to frame building, as I have seen it from other custom building industries as well.

[shovelhd]

Sorry but this makes no sense at all. We should never expect on time deliveries from anyone in the custom craft business because that's just the nature of the business? I'm sure many good craftsmen would disagree. Being an artist of any type is not an excuse to exercise shoddy business practices.

Mike

Good luck with getting a performance contract. It's the nature of the custom crafted business, whether it's bike frames, jewelry, whatever. You are at their mercy. Good businessmen have good business practices, but the quality of the product is no reflection on how they run their business. You pay your money, you take your chances. Do your research.

[FlashUNC]

If you have even a sliver of doubt someone won't perform, don't give them a deposit. Its that simple.

There are too many builders out there who do awesome stuff that's on time and on budget to even take a risk on someone who doesn't.

[William]

Understand the list there but most builders do not have an effective repeatable process in place to deal the production so most of them operate based on a very crude estimate system. In another word, most of them are not a very efficient manufacturer. To make things worst, some of them will take on more that what they can chew on. Nonetheless, this is just the nature of a custom craft business and is not limited to frame building, as I have seen it from other custom building industries as well.

Don't get me wrong here, I really dig the process and how the different builders approach building their wares. But, by the time someone feels comfortable enough in their skill to register as a business and put out a shingle, they should have a process developed in building their frames. Some are going to be much more adept at adhering to that process in a timely manner than others, but that is part of what will separate their business from others.

I was a production manager in a business where almost everything we did was "one off" or custom in one form or another. And almost everything we did had hard due dates or event dates to be met. An art/craft based business in metal and glass/crystal carving, etching bonding painting, lacquering etc... Fine art to custom installations and high end signage. Very large installations to small intricate items, one-offs to multiple units. We were still able to develop time estimates for each step of the process as an item moved from work center to work center to be created (all by hand). It could vary a lot depending on what needed to be done, size, and quantity, etc...

Example:
Coating->shooting->Developing->Chipping->masking/spotting->Blasting->stripping->colorfilling->bonding....


Even so, we could reliably estimate how long a job would take to move through the shop. This also allowed us to be able to fill our production schedule and meet due dates months out.

Knowing what I know about building, it can be done imo...albeit on a smaller scale.

...To make things worst, some of them will take on more that what they can chew on.

Even when you have a good process, this is where things can get really funked up. When you have due dates, you have to work to meet them. At times, work very hard if something goes south. If you don't have hard dates, they'll get done when they get done.









William

[David Kirk]

I don't know how I feel about contracts. On one hand I wouldn't mind signing one most of the time as I feel very certain of my delivery times and quality. But contracts involve two parties and either can make the deal go south.

If the contract is signed and the bike is ready to be built but the customer has a late change of mind on the details of the build (happens as often as not) and this causes the build to start late how would something like this be handled? I'm not familiar with contracts and how this would work.

There are always two sides to every story and as a builder I can tell you that I try my absolute best to treat my customers the way I'd want to be treated.....but.......this doesn't always go both ways. How would a contract protect the builder from a less than honest customer? Say for instance a customer puts down a deposit and the builder designs the bike and then the customer walks - what then? Can the builder sue the customer for breach of contract for not following through on the deal. The builder will usually have a small deposit to cover their time on the frontside but when the customer walks they then have a hole in the schedule and often a pile of raw materials. One might think that this would just mean that the next guy will get his bike that much sooner but it seldom works that way and any way you cut it the builder lost income.

In 2008, when the economy faltered, I had so many folks walk away from orders that I lost over 7 months of business in very short order. One guy cancels and then the next guy cancels and then you end up getting to the next guy that much earlier and he's not ready yet because he's saving for the bike and isn't ready yet so he postpones his order.............and it snow balls. Would I have the right to sue all those people for breach of contract? I don't want to sue folks if they've lost their job and can't pay the rent let alone buy a bike. Sometimes the customer doesn't follow through because life happens and that's just plain unfortunate - and sometimes they play the system. If I have a nickel for every time I had someone ask me to design the bike up front (way before the potential build date) so that they could take the design I did for them to a new guy willing to work for free I'd have retired years ago. Some of the stories would shock you.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a handshake kind of guy and I've paid dearly for it at times (2008) but I can live with that because the alternative just sucks. I don't want to be the guy who sues customers when they bail because they didn't plan well for the expenditure or because they hoped their wife wouldn't find out about the order but did. Who out there wants to buy a bike from a craftsman who has a reputation for suing their customers? Not many I assume.

---------------------------------

Here's what I think. Do your research. Talk with the builders you are interested in. Google them. Read the feedback both good and bad. Ask the builder for references and call the guys who've done biz with the builder. Once you have all the feedback respect what you've learned and if you've gotten bad feedback on a guy don't go there regardless of how low his prices seem or how quickly he says he can get you the bike. It seems at times that some customers think that the builder treated other guys like crap but he won't do that to me. Here's what I think - if he really did treat others like crap the odds are good you will get the crap end of the stick too.

If this is research is done, and respected, then the run of disreputable builders would be very short. Who's going to give money to a builder who refuses to give you references? I wouldn't.

There are a lot of top shelf professional builders out there who have a hard time making ends meet even though they have a long queue, make great stuff and deliver it on time for the agreed upon price. These builders need and deserve your support. I know it's tempting to buy something shiny from a new guy willing to sell you the bike for 1/2 the price the pros charge. But if you want a sure deal he might not be the guy and I'm guessing if he doesn't meet the obligations of the signed contract it will be like getting blood from a stone and you'll be out your deposit, time and now lawyer's fees.

Do the homework and go with a pro and you'll get good results with just a handshake. If it seems too good to be true it is.

The soapbox is clear - thanks for your time.

dave

[weisan]

Dave pal always make perfect sense.

[johnmdesigner]

There is absolutely no reason not to have a contract. It protects both the craftsman and the customer.
I see no reason why clauses cannot be written into the contract to allow for delay's/changes by either side.
This is how business operates. To say that framebuilders are not a business is just ridiculous.
That's why film stars have nasty agents. Because they don't want to deal with the s**t.

[c77barlage]

I guess I'm of the opinion that a contract in this context (relatively small purchase, comparatively) would serve no purpose. If things go south, would you really spend $$ in legal fees (and time wasted) to get your $500 deposit back? (assuming the guy didn't skip town).

If you can't trust the guy enough to sign a contract, perhaps you shouldn't be doing business with him at all.

Agreed, bicycles are supposed to be fun. Contract or not, if one enters an agreement without trust, what is the point? I do agree that promises should be kept by both parties. If not met by a builder, I don't know what a contract would do for a consumer. Any legal procedure would eat up a deposit pretty quick. In my experience (not in this industry, but other custom work) a contract will protect the builder, not the customer. That said, I do not believe it is right to string along a customer without delivery on a promise. That's just not an honest way to deal with people. There will always be people building frames that will not deliver as promised. I hope there will always be builders that do deliver. I know that if I ever have a frame built again, there is a small list of guys I would call.

[cnighbor1]

Ordering a new frame
I would make a list of the frame built data
Like
1. seat tube 57ctc
2. top tube 56ctc
3. tubing Reynolds 531
4. pump peg
5. purpose; touring
6. Color sample(have a sample bigger than a paint chip)
7. tire size
8. fenders
9.etc
than add at bottom if any deviation from above is required the builder will contact you and get approval before proceeding
also agree to points were you see it or at least photos during build
than both sign it

[1centaur]

Offer and acceptance is a legal contract; consideration in the form of a deposit is acceptance. So it's a contract, the question is how detailed the contract should be. I've had three different builders do customs. The builders specced out the frame dimensions (two of them not as we agreed and they had to revise their diagram) after discussion, generally by e-mail, and I signed off and paid the deposit. Where I specified paint jobs, I signed off on the paint scheme too.

I was comfortable with that way of having a contract. It's not different from a lot of contract work. If either side started loading in tons of if this then that contract details I might be suspicious about why it needed to be that way. I still might sign it but I'd at least pause to consider the transaction. I deal with a lot of complex contracts for my work so any contract for a frame will not amount to much, but I would not try to enforce any neurosis I have on a builder. It helps that I could afford a disastrous transaction.

[SPOKE]

I don't know how I feel about contracts. On one hand I wouldn't mind signing one most of the time as I feel very certain of my delivery times and quality. But contracts involve two parties and either can make the deal go south.

If the contract is signed and the bike is ready to be built but the customer has a late change of mind on the details of the build (happens as often as not) and this causes the build to start late how would something like this be handled? I'm not familiar with contracts and how this would work.

There are always two sides to every story and as a builder I can tell you that I try my absolute best to treat my customers the way I'd want to be treated.....but.......this doesn't always go both ways. How would a contract protect the builder from a less than honest customer? Say for instance a customer puts down a deposit and the builder designs the bike and then the customer walks - what then? Can the builder sue the customer for breach of contract for not following through on the deal. The builder will usually have a small deposit to cover their time on the frontside but when the customer walks they then have a hole in the schedule and often a pile of raw materials. One might think that this would just mean that the next guy will get his bike that much sooner but it seldom works that way and any way you cut it the builder lost income.

In 2008, when the economy faltered, I had so many folks walk away from orders that I lost over 7 months of business in very short order. One guy cancels and then the next guy cancels and then you end up getting to the next guy that much earlier and he's not ready yet because he's saving for the bike and isn't ready yet so he postpones his order.............and it snow balls. Would I have the right to sue all those people for breach of contract? I don't want to sue folks if they've lost their job and can't pay the rent let alone buy a bike. Sometimes the customer doesn't follow through because life happens and that's just plain unfortunate - and sometimes they play the system. If I have a nickel for every time I had someone ask me to design the bike up front (way before the potential build date) so that they could take the design I did for them to a new guy willing to work for free I'd have retired years ago. Some of the stories would shock you.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a handshake kind of guy and I've paid dearly for it at times (2008) but I can live with that because the alternative just sucks. I don't want to be the guy who sues customers when they bail because they didn't plan well for the expenditure or because they hoped their wife wouldn't find out about the order but did. Who out there wants to buy a bike from a craftsman who has a reputation for suing their customers? Not many I assume.

---------------------------------

Here's what I think. Do your research. Talk with the builders you are interested in. Google them. Read the feedback both good and bad. Ask the builder for references and call the guys who've done biz with the builder. Once you have all the feedback respect what you've learned and if you've gotten bad feedback on a guy don't go there regardless of how low his prices seem or how quickly he says he can get you the bike. It seems at times that some customers think that the builder treated other guys like crap but he won't do that to me. Here's what I think - if he really did treat others like crap the odds are good you will get the crap end of the stick too.

If this is research is done, and respected, then the run of disreputable builders would be very short. Who's going to give money to a builder who refuses to give you references? I wouldn't.

There are a lot of top shelf professional builders out there who have a hard time making ends meet even though they have a long queue, make great stuff and deliver it on time for the agreed upon price. These builders need and deserve your support. I know it's tempting to buy something shiny from a new guy willing to sell you the bike for 1/2 the price the pros charge. But if you want a sure deal he might not be the guy and I'm guessing if he doesn't meet the obligations of the signed contract it will be like getting blood from a stone and you'll be out your deposit, time and now lawyer's fees.

Do the homework and go with a pro and you'll get good results with just a handshake. If it seems too good to be true it is.

The soapbox is clear - thanks for your time.

dave

My 3 experiences with Dave basically started with either a phone call or email. I send in a deposit understanding an approximate delivery window (with Dave that window has been pretty narrow). I provide my measurements and in a month or so he sends me a frame draft to approve. We discuss changes as necessary to geometry, braze-ons, lugs, paint. Once draft is approved I wait. Dave sends out updates on his progress. When frame is ready I send the balance of payment and Dave ships the frame.
Really pretty simple......

This is pretty much the same process with Richard Sachs. Tom Kellogg, & Kelly Bedford. The process with Serotta was similar....I just worked the same process with the dealer.

If you work with one of the better known builders I'd be surprised if you had a bad experience.

If you are trying to hit a price point by choosing a lesser known builder then you just may be a point on their "steep" learning curve.

[rounder]

bought my bikes on faith that things would turn out fine...and they did. It was sort of like handshake deals. Things turned out great.

If I was buying a car or a house, I would definitely want something in writing.

For the bikes, it was more based on trust, otherwise i would not have done it.

[etu]

for me, the world is too complicated already
i am in the no contract camp
handshake, good vibe, etc. is good enough
the small risk of the interaction going south is worth the preservation of my (delusional?) view that most of us are decent folks who try to do the right thing

i agree with rounder that if it were a much larger purchase or financial risk, then contract would make sense

[etu]

Don't buy a bike from someone you feel is being vague...

Just don't...


There are TONS of good builders that will tell you how much the bike will be up front, what the deposit is and when (within a few weeks) the bike will be done.


Of course there are absolute 5h!thead customers that will call and change things, from paint to geo to materials... and those folks can go take a flying *&#* with their complaints about lead time and cost changes...

But you wont feel strange if you're working with someone worth working with.

this was an awesome post

[cmg]

Ordering a new frame
I would make a list of the frame built data
Like
1. seat tube 57ctc
2. top tube 56ctc
3. tubing Reynolds 531
4. pump peg
5. purpose; touring
6. Color sample(have a sample bigger than a paint chip)
7. tire size
8. fenders
9.etc
than add at bottom if any deviation from above is required the builder will contact you and get approval before proceeding
also agree to points were you see it or at least photos during build
than both sign it

On the customs frames i've ordered there has always been a final e-mail that pretty much covered what has been agreed to. Idea is that there are as few gray areas as possible. More for my benefit than the builder. No bad experiences so far.

[fogrider]

There is absolutely no reason not to have a contract. It protects both the craftsman and the customer.
I see no reason why clauses cannot be written into the contract to allow for delay's/changes by either side.
This is how business operates. To say that framebuilders are not a business is just ridiculous.
That's why film stars have nasty agents. Because they don't want to deal with the s**t.

for the amounts of a frame and fork, a the cost to enforce a contract will cost more than the product. your best bet is small claims court...and if you're located a fair distance from the builder, there's travel. a contract will involve a fair amount of paper work, which builders typically are not good at and most customers are also not good at. and a builder should never sign a contract written by a customer that is a lawyer!

but any good builder in business should know how to build a good bike, and you should pick a builder based on what they have built, not some wild idea of a bike in your mind.

[tigoat]

I know what you are saying William, as I have dealt with a lot of contract work before. What you describe is how a business with multiple employees with different functions should operate with a "legitimate" production scheduling system. These smaller businesses must operate this way in order to sustain the operation, especially with a payroll system to maintain. Keep in mind though most of these bicycle builders are a one-man operation where they have to do multiple functions and at times can't keep up with everything. It seems like most estimates from these individual builders are based on gut feeling and random with the work at hand so it is not really an efficient way to operate. Nonetheless, some will probably do a better job than others on scheduling but that is how it works based on my own dealings with some of them.

Don't get me wrong here, I really dig the process and how the different builders approach building their wares. But, by the time someone feels comfortable enough in their skill to register as a business and put out a shingle, they should have a process developed in building their frames. Some are going to be much more adept at adhering to that process in a timely manner than others, but that is part of what will separate their business from others.

I was a production manager in a business where almost everything we did was "one off" or custom in one form or another. And almost everything we did had hard due dates or event dates to be met. An art/craft based business in metal and glass/crystal carving, etching bonding painting, lacquering etc... Fine art to custom installations and high end signage. Very large installations to small intricate items, one-offs to multiple units. We were still able to develop time estimates for each step of the process as an item moved from work center to work center to be created (all by hand). It could vary a lot depending on what needed to be done, size, and quantity, etc...

Example:
Coating->shooting->Developing->Chipping->masking/spotting->Blasting->stripping->colorfilling->bonding....


Even so, we could reliably estimate how long a job would take to move through the shop. This also allowed us to be able to fill our production schedule and meet due dates months out.

Knowing what I know about building, it can be done imo...albeit on a smaller scale.



Even when you have a good process, this is where things can get really funked up. When you have due dates, you have to work to meet them. At times, work very hard if something goes south. If you don't have hard dates, they'll get done when they get done.









William

[Neil]

I'd say the process was roughly as follows:
- Client decides they want a frame, does their research and speaks to their peers - forums are used extensively at this point, a shortlist is created
- Client contacts all the builders, based on the initial chat and their own personal scoring system we either make the cut or we don't
- If we make the cut there is a discussion on type of riding, requirements, characteristics of favourite bikes etc, pricing is discussed openly
- Should the client go with us then a deposit (£500) is paid, that secures their place in the build schedule, we finalise the design and order the materials
- We clear the queue
- The clients frame is now scheduled, we check for any last minute changes, confirm things, build the frame, paint it
- If this is a complete build we'll confirm the build-list, order and put the whole thing together, if not we box the frame up securely
- Client is asked to transfer the final balance
- Bike or frame is shipped

If something is face to face or over the telephone then we'll send an email afterward confirming what was discussed, and everything that requires a decision will be emailed so there is always a record - not that this has ever been needed, but it's useful for both parties to have the ability to check.

[oldpotatoe]

seeing the other thread on "builders with integrity" has me thinking.

for those of you who have ordered custom bikes to be built: was there a written contract? was it only a verbal agreement, or were the terms of that agreement layed out on paper? is a delivery date part of said contract?

maybe it isnt "old school", but perhaps written agreements are better than the old handshake in certain circumstances. at the very least, it put's both parties exact expectations in black and white.

thought?

A little different owning a shop but with Moots and Waterford/Gunnar..a spec sheet/drawing, that was always approved(signed) by me or Joe, the fit guy..so yes a contract..not with the customer tho..they got a invoice, all the particulars, not signed tho.

Delivery date(estimated) was always on Waterford/Gunnar, not for Moots.

What I did say was that the resulting frame was 100% guaranteed. If the customer was upset for ANY reason, we'd give them their $ back..just pay for the fit($200), with the fit sheet provided. Including if the delivery time was not accurate. Happened only once in 13 years, about 700-800 frames or bikes, and because the bike, in the customer's humble opinion, 'rode funny', a custom Gunnar MTB frame.

As the place that dealt with the customer, a money back guarantee for any reason, is essential, IMHO.

[CNY rider]

---------------------------------

Here's what I think. Do your research. Talk with the builders you are interested in. Google them. Read the feedback both good and bad. Ask the builder for references and call the guys who've done biz with the builder. Once you have all the feedback respect what you've learned and if you've gotten bad feedback on a guy don't go there regardless of how low his prices seem or how quickly he says he can get you the bike. It seems at times that some customers think that the builder treated other guys like crap but he won't do that to me. Here's what I think - if he really did treat others like crap the odds are good you will get the crap end of the stick too.

If this is research is done, and respected, then the run of disreputable builders would be very short. Who's going to give money to a builder who refuses to give you references? I wouldn't.

There are a lot of top shelf professional builders out there who have a hard time making ends meet even though they have a long queue, make great stuff and deliver it on time for the agreed upon price. These builders need and deserve your support. I know it's tempting to buy something shiny from a new guy willing to sell you the bike for 1/2 the price the pros charge. But if you want a sure deal he might not be the guy and I'm guessing if he doesn't meet the obligations of the signed contract it will be like getting blood from a stone and you'll be out your deposit, time and now lawyer's fees.

Do the homework and go with a pro and you'll get good results with just a handshake. If it seems too good to be true it is.

The soapbox is clear - thanks for your time.

dave

David is there still a "Framebuilders Collective"? What were the goals of the group, and did they make any progress?

[David Kirk]

David is there still a "Framebuilders Collective"? What were the goals of the group, and did they make any progress?

Yes the group still exists. It's hard to gauge how productive it has been at this point. At this point I'd personally call it 'dormant' but not dead. I'd like to see us active again as there is a lot of work to do.

dave

[rwsaunders]

A wise, old sage gave me three bits of advise when either purchasing or providing professional goods or services.

A. A contract is essentially an agreement by which two parties acknowledge the terms and conditions upon which a transaction is based...note the word "agreement", as it take two to tango.

B. A verbal contract is only worth the paper that it's written on.

C. In God we trust...in all others we need an agreement.